172 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

Acharnae wrote...

Once you take away their humanity (elfishnes, dwarvishness) only then you can justify what cannot be justified.

It´s very easy to do that. They can claim whatever, but it´s just letting fear control you. I guess it´s easy until you are involved personally. The Chantry can claim a lot, but they want control over the mages to remove a possible rival for power, keeping people "safe" is just a side effect. Anyone can stab you, muggle feuding nobles can slaughter your village, but only a mage can burn you. But treating a whole collective of people for the risk of individuals the way they do in Thedas is a bomb waiting to explode. And there´s nothing in the world we know of that could contain that explosion.

Ancient Tevinter doesn´t seem very different from the Roman empire besides being ruled by mages. Would like to know much about how they tried to usurp heaven. It seems there are no bounds to how stupid humanity can be no matter the setting, but I don´t believe the Chantry version. If any of my PCs did, then s/he wouldn´t worship the Maker as a moral principle. Either that religion is wrong, or I hope I can help Flemeth slay such a god. Let´s finish the Eternal Champion work.

[iampool]

I just hope abominations in DA2 (if there are any), will have true awesome magical powers as suposed, not just a scary look and an explonsion when they die. I mean those were suposed to be really strong magical creatures, and they didn't even used a spell, except the fire. Actually Mages were so much stronger than those which kind of didn't make that much sense to me.

[HopHazzard]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
It's easy to think of mages as poor, oppressed souls until you consider what they can do.

 
As a veteran Babylon 5 fan who watched five seasons of a well-written show that contained hand-wringing over  telepaths and their oversight agency - The Psicorps - I have no such scruples.

Them folks are dangerous. 

I think the "poor oppressed souls" people tend to think of mages as people.  People deserve rights and freedom, and I'm not gonna dispute that.  But mages and telepaths (****** superior in B5) aren't normal humans, their nature does in fact make them objectively dangerous.  And that's not prejudice, that's reality.  Does that mean that mages in DA and telepaths in B5 couldn't be good and moral?  Of course not.  But their existence warrants concern and oversight.

/rant over
//the first person to try to compare my argument to those endorsing ethnic cleansing or Jim Crow gets a spanking

There's a difference between oversight, and restriction. To use your B5 example, the telepath war wasn't caused by telepaths trying to take over, it was caused by telepaths trying to free themselves from a government that controlled their entire lives. And eventually they worked out a new system that allowed them greater freedoms while keeping the general public safe.

Honestly, I'm all for oversight, but taking people from their families and keeping them apart from the rest of society isn't the way to do it. It only encourages mages to think of themselves as something other than people and therefore not bound by the rules that govern people.

[Ayanko]

I can't imagine Noble families giving up their children so willing, specially if the child is Male. Take connor for instance. I'm pretty sure Eamon knew his son was a mage.

I can't see the couslands giving up their child either. Even if the child was a mage. An example of this would be the fact the Mage Human doesn't have the 2nd name cousland.

[Snelle Jaap]

David Gaider wrote...

Risax wrote...
So a lot of mages end up in the Circle of Magi, but how did they get there?

Through the front door.

Did their parents give them off wilingly?

Sometimes, sure.

Like Jowans mother, after he had shown his magical abilities his mother ignored him and called him 'demon child' or 'abomination'. And after a while his father dropped him of at the local chantry where the Templars picked him up.

Maybe it's just me, but I think teenagers that can't throw fireballs are scary enough.

But what happens to parents like Isolde, who try to keep there children at home?

Usually they're charged with having broken a law-- not by the templars, but by the regular authorities. Do you think those authorities want mages lurking about in their cities? Not a chance. It's easy to think of mages as poor, oppressed souls until you consider what they can do.

Do all un-educated mages eventually become abominations no matter what their age?

Of course not. Not all mages become abominations or blood mages. The fact that they could do it is what makes them so terrifying. If you knew your neighbour was a mage, someone who could turn into an abomination and kill you even without him wanting to? Or someone that might steal your children to use their blood, or read your mind? How comfortable would you feel about that?

That's if people even think it through that far. Once upon a time, mages ruled the known world with terrifying power, and the Chantry tells them that, given the chance, that could happen again. And not without reason.

Good stuff there Ser ( it made sense to me atleast )

and yeah i will be freaking out to if i had a mage for a neighbour

but then again i like the mage the most in DA:O 

Modifié par Snelle Jaap, 04 octobre 2010 - 01:58 .

[HighMoon]

David Gaider wrote...

Risax wrote...
So a lot of mages end up in the Circle of Magi, but how did they get there?

Through the front door.

Oh, you funny man, you. A natural born comedian I see.

[Sir JK]

Then again, there could also be some families that are absolutely terrified and want to get rid of the child as soon as possible (and if the templars can't get there quick enough they'll drown the thing!) or noble families that'd find it embarrasing and would simply quietly drop of the child at the closest templar base, ask them to be discreet (and not mention the child by it's name) and then lie through their teeth and say that the child, sadly, died in pneumonia or somesuch.



As have been mentioned... mages are dangerous. Danger makes people afraid. Fear makes people do horrible things... yes, even to children. The circles aren't just prisons and schools... but also orphanages and refuges.

[Snelle Jaap]

Golden-Rose wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Risax wrote...
So a lot of mages end up in the Circle of Magi, but how did they get there?

Through the front door.

Oh, you funny man, you. A natural born comedian I see.

it seems so do i dont mind, Ha i like him

(frog time)...

[Ayanko]

Also children that are born in noble families could be shipped to trevinter, at least life would be better for them there. And they can gain a Title.

[Herr Uhl]

Ayanko wrote...

Also children that are born in noble families could be shipped to trevinter, at least life would be better for them there. And they can gain a Title.

Not really better. Just governed by other people. And you can gain a title in the circle too.

[Sir JK]

Ayanko wrote...

Also children that are born in noble families could be shipped to trevinter, at least life would be better for them there. And they can gain a Title.

Actually, with the exception of the "lucky" (try: backstabbing political bastards) few that become magisters. Mages don't have it much better there. Especially not foreign mages.

[Risax]

Sir JK wrote...

Ayanko wrote...

Also children that are born in noble families could be shipped to trevinter, at least life would be better for them there. And they can gain a Title.

Actually, with the exception of the "lucky" (try: backstabbing political bastards) few that become magisters. Mages don't have it much better there. Especially not foreign mages.

No it will just be mages ruled by mages.
I don't think it is any better then being ruled by Templars, though native Tevinters might have it a little easier.
But I doubt it.

[Nerevar-as]

In Tevinter the ruling ones probably see to it that mages with views different than theirs can´t rise much. Being a slave-based society, I don´t think very much of the ruling class there, and mages who don´t agree with the system don´t seem to have much alternatives. Chantry controlled countries would lock them in a Circle the least, Qun followers are worse... Then again Thedas is a dark fantasy setting.

[0x30A88]

The Mages' Collective is a great example of free mages. They follow the chantry's rules among themselves and disapprove on blood magic and other kinds of maleficarum.



Not all free mages would be a treath, but better safe than sorry.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, many of the times the children aren't forcefully removed from their families at all, but rather rescued from their neighbors. There are many reasons for why the children are removed from their families, not just the one about its dangerous if the child forms connections. Its also dangerous for the child itself and its surroundings.

[Risax]

Gisle Aune wrote...

The Mages' Collective is a great example of free mages. They follow the chantry's rules among themselves and disapprove on blood magic and other kinds of maleficarum.

Not all free mages would be a treath, but better safe than sorry.

Well, the Collective isn't excactly the best example.
They make deals with Templars to look the other way (giving them more lyrium then they should).

And they cover up the use of Blood Magic by letting someone slay a Blood Mage instead of reporting it to the Templars.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Risax wrote...

Gisle Aune wrote...

The Mages' Collective is a great example of free mages. They follow the chantry's rules among themselves and disapprove on blood magic and other kinds of maleficarum.

Not all free mages would be a treath, but better safe than sorry.

Well, the Collective isn't excactly the best example.
They make deals with Templars to look the other way (giving them more lyrium then they should).

And they cover up the use of Blood Magic by letting someone slay a Blood Mage instead of reporting it to the Templars.

I think the point was that they deal with blood mages and maleficar, and police their own without toadying to the Chantry.   Sure they work outside the system and bribe the Chantry.   Realistically, what oversight agency doesn't receive bribes of some kind?  I doubt the Chantry or the templars are incorruptible.  

What I do like about DA:O is how realistically it deals with the consequences of magic in a dark fantasy.  Someone who can shoot lightning, control your actions, and rain hellfire upon you is very different from someone who can't, and treated differently.  Fair?  Hardly.   But it makes sense.

[David Gaider]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Well, many of the times the children aren't forcefully removed from their families at all, but rather rescued from their neighbors. There are many reasons for why the children are removed from their families, not just the one about its dangerous if the child forms connections. Its also dangerous for the child itself and its surroundings.

Actually, it's fairly rare that a mage will be discovered to possess their gifts in childhood-- usually it's something that begins to manifest itself near adolescence (which is still a child, I suppose, but it sounds like some people are talking about babies being ripped from their mothers' arms).

It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well-- and who are looking to help and protect these mages (who, yes, would probably be killed by a frightened mob or even by their parents if not by themselves) as much as they are to control them.

[nightcobra]

David Gaider wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Well, many of the times the children aren't forcefully removed from their families at all, but rather rescued from their neighbors. There are many reasons for why the children are removed from their families, not just the one about its dangerous if the child forms connections. Its also dangerous for the child itself and its surroundings.

Actually, it's fairly rare that a mage will be discovered to possess their gifts in childhood-- usually it's something that begins to manifest itself near adolescence (which is still a child, I suppose, but it sounds like some people are talking about babies being ripped from their mothers' arms).

It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well-- and who are looking to help and protect these mages (who, yes, would probably be killed by a frightened mob or even by their parents if not by themselves) as much as they are to control them.

is it possible for a mage to be a "late bloomer" only manifesting magic in his/her twenties?

[Risax]

David Gaider wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Well, many of the times the children aren't forcefully removed from their families at all, but rather rescued from their neighbors. There are many reasons for why the children are removed from their families, not just the one about its dangerous if the child forms connections. Its also dangerous for the child itself and its surroundings.

Actually, it's fairly rare that a mage will be discovered to possess their gifts in childhood-- usually it's something that begins to manifest itself near adolescence (which is still a child, I suppose, but it sounds like some people are talking about babies being ripped from their mothers' arms).

It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well-- and who are looking to help and protect these mages (who, yes, would probably be killed by a frightened mob or even by their parents if not by themselves) as much as they are to control them.

How is magic noticed in children?
Do they use magic? (lighting stuff on fire or something).

Or can Templars feel the presence of magic in a person?

[Ayanko]

Surely there must be throwbacks if the templars rip a child away from a noble family. But I assume the children are only taken away when they do magic in public or given up.
For example Hawke's sister Bethany. She must be in her early 20's and hasn't been caught by the templars. If templars could sense the magic, they would have done it by now. Seeing as theres a platoon of templars in the area.

Modifié par Ayanko, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:08 .