172 réponses à ce sujet

[ErichHartmann]

Risax wrote...

How is magic noticed in children?
Do they use magic? (lighting stuff on fire or something).

Did you play DAO?  Because if you talk to Wynne about her past she "accidently" burned the hair of another child.  She was taken by the Templars a few days after the incident.   

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 04 octobre 2010 - 04:07 .

[Risax]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Risax wrote...

How is magic noticed in children?
Do they use magic? (lighting stuff on fire or something).

Did you play DAO?  Because if you talk to Wynne about her past she "accidently" burned the hair of another child.  She was taken by the Templars a few days after the incident.   

Yes that's true, in emotional outburst children use magic...I forgot.

But still there must be children that don't use it so openly, so how are they found out?
Do the Templars have an ability that allows them to 'feel' magic?

[Ayanko]

Risax wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

Risax wrote...

How is magic noticed in children?
Do they use magic? (lighting stuff on fire or something).

Did you play DAO?  Because if you talk to Wynne about her past she "accidently" burned the hair of another child.  She was taken by the Templars a few days after the incident.   

Yes that's true, in emotional outburst children use magic...I forgot.

But still there must be children that don't use it so openly, so how are they found out?
Do the Templars have an ability that allows them to 'feel' magic?

The answers simple there not found out. Think of how many nobles are in Fereldan. Now at least one of them is probably a hidden mage. You can't tell a mage from normal people. If you listened to cullen in the tower, he said you can't tell maleficarum from sight. True for mages. Another hint to this is when your a mage and you meet Alistair. If you choose the right options he's shocked to discover your a mage. He can't tell and he's a templar.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Risax wrote...
Yes that's true, in emotional outburst children use magic...I forgot.

But still there must be children that don't use it so openly, so how are they found out?
Do the Templars have an ability that allows them to 'feel' magic?

My impression is that the templars have no special spidey senses.  If they did, they'd have a lot easier time hunting down people like the Dalish keepers, or the Witches of the Wild.  Rather, they keep an ear out for rumors, lynch mobs after a kid, unusual incidents, orphans left on their doorstep with singed hair, etc.  Given how disruptive magic appears to be, and how frightened some normal people are of it, I'll bet it's not difficult to identify a mage child due to the hubbub about it.

Keep in mind that Bethany and possibly Hawke are special cases.  They were raised and trained by an apostate father (who was presumably less failtastic than Jowan) and probably taught to control their magic at an early age.  Thus, not found out.  

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well-- and who are looking to help and protect these mages (who, yes, would probably be killed by a frightened mob or even by their parents if not by themselves) as much as they are to control them.

That's interesting aspect; when it comes to the runaway mages or ones who weren't brought to the Circle yet, or maybe even ones who are part of the Circle but are allowed to move around like Wynne etc... is it common for a mob to form and try and kill such mage if they figure out that's actually a mage? Or more of a "hide and pray to Andraste and call the authorities" affair?

[Risax]

tmp7704 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well-- and who are looking to help and protect these mages (who, yes, would probably be killed by a frightened mob or even by their parents if not by themselves) as much as they are to control them.

That's interesting aspect; when it comes to the runaway mages or ones who weren't brought to the Circle yet, or maybe even ones who are part of the Circle but are allowed to move around like Wynne etc... is it common for a mob to form and try and kill such mage if they figure out that's actually a mage? Or more of a "hide and pray to Andraste and call the authorities" affair?

That depends I guess.

If someone figures out someone is a mage they call the Templars.
But if a mage terorizes people... They might fight back and rip the mage apart when they get the chance.
But the Templars are probably the better option for both.

[nightcobra]

Risax wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well-- and who are looking to help and protect these mages (who, yes, would probably be killed by a frightened mob or even by their parents if not by themselves) as much as they are to control them.

That's interesting aspect; when it comes to the runaway mages or ones who weren't brought to the Circle yet, or maybe even ones who are part of the Circle but are allowed to move around like Wynne etc... is it common for a mob to form and try and kill such mage if they figure out that's actually a mage? Or more of a "hide and pray to Andraste and call the authorities" affair?

That depends I guess.

If someone figures out someone is a mage they call the Templars.
But if a mage terorizes people... They might fight back and rip the mage apart when they get the chance.
But the Templars are probably the better option for both.

what if it's the other way around, the mage in question specializing in healing. would the people next to him actually help him/her hide from the templars instead of calling the authorities?

[Doyle41]

The comic deals with Gleam. The child of a Templar and a mage. She to is a mage and is being raised by an adopted family that is trying to hide her ability. It seems as though they fear her being taken away, but they almost appear to fear their own safety as well. Not to mention, Gleam's abilities could lead to a financial gain also.



Also, the Templars in the comic look for signs of magic items and spell casters. I suppose they are like seasoned detectives that learn what to look for while searching for mages.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well.

Since that description doesn't conflict even with the "liars and sheeple" model of religion, I don't find that terribly heartening.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well.

Since that description doesn't conflict even with the "liars and sheeple" model of religion, I don't find that terribly heartening.

*snerk*  Yeah, the whole path to hell paved with good intentions thing and all.  My general impression after playing DA:O and DA:A as a mage was that the individual people within the Chantry were pretty chill.  I even developed some grudging respect for Greagior.  The policies and inertia of the organization as a whole?  Not such a fan.  

[Risax]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well.

Since that description doesn't conflict even with the "liars and sheeple" model of religion, I don't find that terribly heartening.

*snerk*  Yeah, the whole path to hell paved with good intentions thing and all.  My general impression after playing DA:O and DA:A as a mage was that the individual people within the Chantry were pretty chill.  I even developed some grudging respect for Greagior.  The policies and inertia of the organization as a whole?  Not such a fan.  

Yes but they saw you as a Grey Warden first a mage second.
But I agree with you, even though the Chantry protects us from some of the mages.
They might try going a bit easier on them. I mean some Templars push mages to far, which can just as easy result into mages studying Blood Magic and using it. it is just as worse as not learning them anything and keeping watch over them.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Risax wrote...
Yes but they saw you as a Grey Warden first a mage second.
But I agree with you, even though the Chantry protects us from some of the mages.
They might try going a bit easier on them. I mean some Templars push mages to far, which can just as easy result into mages studying Blood Magic and using it. it is just as worse as not learning them anything and keeping watch over them.

Not the Circle templars.  Greagior was not happy to see me (just that little Jowan incident, just a little thing) and immediately called me out, and Cullen doesn't particularly care if you're a Grey Warden, he's still got his creepy hard-on for a female mage.  But you're right about everyone else, they care more about the fact that you're setting darkspawn on fire.

[LobselVith8]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

It's very easy to demonize the Chantry, but the fact remains that it's largely an organization of people that mean well.

Since that description doesn't conflict even with the "liars and sheeple" model of religion, I don't find that terribly heartening.

*snerk*  Yeah, the whole path to hell paved with good intentions thing and all.  My general impression after playing DA:O and DA:A as a mage was that the individual people within the Chantry were pretty chill.  I even developed some grudging respect for Greagior.  The policies and inertia of the organization as a whole?  Not such a fan.  

Wynne does mention in Awakening that the Circles are debating a complete split from the Chantry. Maybe DA2 will cover that, or perhaps Hawke may play a role.

[Sable Rhapsody]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wynne does mention in Awakening that the Circles are debating a complete split from the Chantry. Maybe DA2 will cover that, or perhaps Hawke may play a role.

ZOMG.  DO WANT.

Maybe it's just me, but when I heard the tagline about Hawke changing the world forever, the first things that come to mind are things like the French Revolution, or the wars of religious reformation.  They changed things, but they were bloody, violent, horribly disruptive, and far from "just."  I want to see Hawke precipitate a cataclysmic change.  I want to see Thedas get turned upside down and inside out, and I want it to be tangled, ambiguous, and bloody.

[Sir JK]

About that children are occasionally taken in to be trained as mages and that parents would supposedly resist it, I'd like to point out one thing. This is a mediveal setting and one of the very darkest sides of anything truly mediveal is the high childhood death. IRL approximately 33% of all children died in their first year and in total 50% before they were adult. In some regions of europe, it was common practise to send children away to relatives and friends to be raised... that way you didn't have to be there when they died. Horrible.
I'm not saying that it necessarily is that bad in Thedas, what it being a fantasy setting and all, but if it is anythng similar then parents could simply equal a mage child with a dead child and mourn it but then go on with their lives.

as an aside:

...like the French Revolution...

Now I want to see a mage Robespierre...

Modifié par Sir JK, 04 octobre 2010 - 11:12 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Sir JK wrote...

Now I want to see a mage Robespierre...

Well, I'm pretty much going to play mage Napoleon, so go for mage Robespierre.  Together we shall precipitate the Mage French Revolution, filled with magical baguettes and guillotines that set off fireworks when they chop off the heads of our enemies! 

[upsettingshorts]

If you're mage Napoleon, can I be a combination of Templar Wellington and Templar Nelson?

[ErichHartmann]

A mage Robespierre would kill everyone for the sake of terror.  There is no freedom in the that! 

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 05 octobre 2010 - 12:06 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If you're mage Napoleon, can I be a combination of Templar Wellington and Templar Nelson?

Oh, you're mean.  See this?  This is my sad face 

Also, I think I'm a bit more historically savvy than Napoleon.  None of that land war in Asia business.  Oh, no 

[Bryy_Miller]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
 But mages and telepaths (****** superior in B5) aren't normal humans, their nature does in fact make them objectively dangerous.  And that's not prejudice, that's reality. 

This is why I find True Blood so fascinating. They drink blood in order to live. That's fact. There's no soft-shoeing (to use a rather lame pun) around that.

[LobselVith8]

David Gaider wrote...

Maybe it's just me, but I think teenagers that can't throw fireballs are scary enough.

So are armed and armored drug addicts watching over children.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
It's easy to think of mages as poor, oppressed souls until you consider what they can do.

 
As a veteran Babylon 5 fan who watched five seasons of a well-written show that contained hand-wringing over  telepaths and their oversight agency - The Psicorps - I have no such scruples.

Them folks are dangerous.

So is the Chantry - just ask the Dalish. According to the Dalish codex for the Dalish Warden, after the Dalish tossed out the missionaries from the Dales, the Chantry sent in templars...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think the "poor oppressed souls" people tend to think of mages as people.  People deserve rights and freedom, and I'm not gonna dispute that.  But mages and telepaths (****** superior in B5) aren't normal humans, their nature does in fact make them objectively dangerous.  And that's not prejudice, that's reality.

In my opinion, mages should be properly instructed on the use of their magic and not lorded over by people who are addicted to a drug and taught that magic is a curse. Mages can't raise their own children, they can't marry in some Circles, they get turned into rune crafting slaves in some cases. That's the reality of the situation - and so is the comparison with Babylon 5. Did you forget about the corrupt Psi-Corps from Babylon 5? It's no different for mages. Mages have power, so they should be taught - not imprisoned for having magical ability.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Does that mean that mages in DA and telepaths in B5 couldn't be good and moral?  Of course not.  But their existence warrants concern and oversight.

/rant over
//the first person to try to compare my argument to those endorsing ethnic cleansing or Jim Crow gets a spanking

And who watches the watchmen?

There have been mages throughout the history of Thedas. Looking at the tales of Arlathan and the Dales, with the reality of the Dalish elves and the Disciples of Andraste, I see plenty of mages who exist without Chantry oversight. Not only has Haven stood for roughly 900 years without being destroyed by abominations, but the pro-mage Dragon worshippers have no issue with magic and they're evidently doing fine. So are the Dalish clans lead by mages, with no templars or Chantry oversight.

Maybe you're forgetting the lesson of Babylon 5 and the telepaths - especially the revolution that won telepaths their freedom from the Psi-Corps. Is it any different for mages who want freedom from the Chantry? According to Cullen, some of his fellow templars talk about killing mages with glee. That's not the kind of people that should be watching over mages, much less children. There's amble reason for mages to be instructed on the proper use of their powers, not to live under a tyranny that strips their rights away, forbids them from raising children, kills them if they run away, and tells them that magic is a curse.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to Cullen, some of his fellow templars talk about killing mages with glee.

There's mages who talk about "setting fools on fire" with glee, too. Talk is cheap.

[upsettingshorts]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So are armed and armored drug addicts watching over children.

Drug addicts are only dangerous when deprived of their supply.  Which would make for an interesting story...

So is the Chantry - just ask the Dalish. According to the Dalish codex for the Dalish Warden, after the Dalish tossed out the missionaries from the Dales, the Chantry sent in templars...

Politically and socially dangerous isn't the same as inherently physically dangerous.

In my opinion, mages should be properly instructed on the use of their magic and not lorded over by people who are addicted to a drug and taught that magic is a curse. Mages can't raise their own children, they can't marry in some Circles, they get turned into rune crafting slaves in some cases. That's the reality of the situation - and so is the comparison with Babylon 5. Did you forget about the corrupt Psi-Corps from Babylon 5? It's no different for mages. Mages have power, so they should be taught - not imprisoned for having magical ability.

Of course I didn't forget, and there are more ideal situations than the Chantry/Circle Tower solution.  But I don't think the factors are in place to facilitate moving from Templar oversight into anything other than anarchy.   And anarchy would be bad.  

And who watches the watchmen?

Always a good question.

Maybe you're forgetting the lesson of Babylon 5 and the telepaths - especially the revolution that won telepaths their freedom from the Psi-Corps.

I can't forget something that only happened in books and comics that I never read.  The way B5 ended for telepaths was very dubious indeed.  The whole Byron thing did not end well.  For further response, I'd point to my earlier distinction between the fact the Psi-Corps existed in the context of a modern liberal democracy complete with an established bureaucracy and the decentralized nature of a medieval monarchy.  That and the whole "what's the alternative, given the situation in Thedas?" point in this post.

According to Cullen, some of his fellow templars talk about killing mages with glee. That's not the kind of people that should be watching over mages, much less children. There's amble reason for mages to be instructed on the proper use of their powers, not to live under a tyranny that strips their rights away, forbids them from raising children, kills them if they run away, and tells them that magic is a curse.

Never said it was perfect.  Didn't even say I was a big fan of the Chantry.  Just claimed that mages are dangerous and need some form of oversight and regulation.   The point was mostly that I couldn't consider mages poor and oppressed souls who need to be freed like some kind of oppressed ethnic minority.  They're fundamentally different than other people and require fundamentally different methods to deal with.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 02:35 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

According to Cullen, some of his fellow templars talk about killing mages with glee.[/quote]
There's mages who talk about "setting fools on fire" with glee, too. Talk is cheap.[/quote]

You mean during A Broken Circle in the Fade, in the Fade where mages and templars have gone insane?

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

So are armed and armored drug addicts watching over children.[/quote]

Drug addicts are only dangerous when deprived of their supply.  Which would make for an interesting story... [/quote]

If the Divine actually declares a war on Orzammar as a result of its independent Circle of Magi, there goes the lyrium trade...

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

So is the Chantry - just ask the Dalish. According to the Dalish codex for the Dalish Warden, after the Dalish tossed out the missionaries from the Dales, the Chantry sent in templars...[/quote]

Politically and socially dangerous isn't the same as inherently physically dangerous. [/quote]

The Dalish mages being hunted by the templars would see them as the same thing.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

In my opinion, mages should be properly instructed on the use of their magic and not lorded over by people who are addicted to a drug and taught that magic is a curse. Mages can't raise their own children, they can't marry in some Circles, they get turned into rune crafting slaves in some cases. That's the reality of the situation - and so is the comparison with Babylon 5. Did you forget about the corrupt Psi-Corps from Babylon 5? It's no different for mages. Mages have power, so they should be taught - not imprisoned for having magical ability.[/quote]

Of course I didn't forget, and there are more ideal situations than the Chantry/Circle Tower solution.  But I don't think the factors are in place to facilitate moving from Templar oversight into anything other than anarchy.   And anarchy would be bad.  [/quote]

Change is needed. That's the entire purpose behind the Magi Boon, after all. The templars have been in place for over 900 years now, since the Cult of Andraste was made into an official religion by the Orlesian Emperor Kordillus Drakon I, who also established the Order of Templars and the Circle of Magi.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Maybe you're forgetting the lesson of Babylon 5 and the telepaths - especially the revolution that won telepaths their freedom from the Psi-Corps. [/quote]

I can't forget something that only happened in books and comics that I never read.  The way B5 ended for telepaths was very dubious indeed.  The whole Byron thing did not end well.  For further response, I'd point to my earlier distinction between the fact the Psi-Corps existed in the context of a modern liberal democracy complete with an established bureaucracy and the decentralized nature of a medieval monarchy.  That and the whole "what's the
alternative, given the situation in Thedas?" point in this post. [/quote]

Technically, it was mentioned of the spin-off, Crusade. One of the crew members was a former Psi-Corps member. And the ruler of Ferelden completely supports the idea of mages governing themselves from the US ending where its decreed and the post-DR/Redeemer ending where the Magi boon is a possibility for both Alistair and Anora as ruler.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

According to Cullen, some of his fellow templars talk about killing mages with glee. That's not the kind of people that should be watching over mages, much less children. There's amble reason for mages to be instructed on the proper use of their powers, not to live under a tyranny that strips their rights away, forbids them from raising children, kills them if they run away, and tells them that magic is a curse.[/quote]

Never said it was perfect.  Didn't even say I was a big fan of the Chantry.  Just claimed that mages are dangerous and need some form of oversight and regulation.   The point was mostly that I couldn't consider mages poor and oppressed souls who need to be freed like some kind of oppressed ethnic minority.  They're fundamentally different than other people and require fundamentally different methods to deal with. [/quote]

Aren't they oppressed under the Chantry? Being turned into a tranquil is monstorous. The fact that they hunted down Wynne's fourteen year old apprentice when he was just scared is a brutal method for policing mages. Uldred's revolt illustrates how the oppression by the Chantry is inevitably going to turn violent as long as the Chantry keeps them under their thumb.

[upsettingshorts]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish mages being hunted by the templars would see them as the same thing.

Being seen as the same != Actually the same.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Change is needed. That's the entire purpose behind the Magi Boon, after all. The templars have been in place for over 900 years now, since the Cult of Andraste was made into an official religion by the Orlesian Emperor Kordillus Drakon I, who also established the Order of Templars and the Circle of Magi.

The Magi Boon was pretty darn vague.   That change is needed I'm not entirely certain of.  It's not an ideal situation, but again I'd need to an alternative plan to be in place before I disturbed the current system because to do otherwise would be reckless and irresponsible.  Plus, mages are a minority and without the presence of a representative republic to protect them from the tyranny of the majority, I doubt that the monarchy and Chantry would bother - aside from said requested Boon.  And the masses of the normal people, who fear mages, are unlikely to engage in any sort of popular demonstration on their behalf.  That leaves a violent revolution by the mages against the Templars, Chantry, and established order. 

LobselVith8 wrote...

Technically, it was mentioned of the spin-off, Crusade. One of the crew members was a former Psi-Corps member. And the ruler of Ferelden completely supports the idea of mages governing themselves from the US ending where its decreed and the post-DR/Redeemer ending where the Magi boon is a possibility for both Alistair and Anora as ruler.

Point taken on Crusade.  Though with regards to the Boon and the monarchy's support, I believe Gaider said somewhere that the relationship between the monarchy and the Chantry authority isn't top-down.  The monarchy can make requests of the Chantry but the latter is under no obligation to do as they ask.  I imagine that isn't the monarchy's last recourse, but I have doubts it would become anything but a bloody, convoluted mess.  The Chantry isn't going to back down because some King asks them to.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Aren't they oppressed under the Chantry? Being turned into a tranquil is monstorous. The fact that they hunted down Wynne's fourteen year old apprentice when he was just scared is a brutal method for policing mages. Uldred's revolt illustrates how the oppression by the Chantry is inevitably going to turn violent as long as the Chantry keeps them under their thumb.

That's where the difference between them being potentially dangerous and just another oppressed ethnic group (like say, the elves in the alienage) comes in to play.  It's not entirely humane, obviously, but it's closer to the idea of prison than the idea of slavery.  Is pre-emptive inprisonment morally justified?  Eh, not really no - not without the original sin concept of mages screwing up the whole Black City thing and causing Blights - if I remember the lore right - but is it legally and practically justified?  Maybe.  It's certainly more open for debate than an open-and-shut-case either for (the Chantry's position) or against (the apostate position) its existence.

If I was around in Thedas in a position of power, I'd definitely be trying to figure out an alternative.  But I'd better make absolutely damn sure I knew what I was doing.  It isn't like the Emancipation Proclamation.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 03:05 .