172 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're talking about a guy who was joking around (like he does in most of his dialogue) while Cullen is deadpan serious when he says that templars have talked about such things (i.e. killing mages) with glee.

Stop using this redicolous "argument" already.

Rediculous? I'm not sure what's more ridiculous, your inaccurate arguments - like when you claim abominations are handing out quests for the Mages Collective and denying you every said it even when presented with the links and quotes - or your incessant need to start a debate with me on every thread.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

People talk all the time. Thre are morons and bloodthirsty people in every group. Among hte police. Among the general populace. among the soldiers. And yes, among the templars. And among the mages too.

The mages are more line in a quaranteene than in a prison. Tehy are kept inside for their own good and hte good of hte general populace.
You may argue it's monstrous, but if I could belch fire and raise dead, and compeltely loose my sanity at any moment, you would want me in chains.

Considering the VO for the Magi Origin calls it a prison, I'm going to disagree with you there and say it's a prison. 
As for the necessity of the Chantry and templars, I have to disagre - the lack of templars and the Chantry in Rivain, the Dalish clans, and the Disciples of Andraste show they aren't necessary, the latter having survived in Haven for roughly 900 years with a pro-mage policy.

[Nerevar-as]

Disciples of Andrastre are not the best example, and and we don´t know how Rivain deals with mages. Dalish elves however seem to manage fine.



BTW, a properly trained mage is in no greater danger of going insane than anybody else. Where did people get that notion? And the Harrowing is disapproved of by the Valor spirit too.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobeselVith8 how many time do we have to explain to you that using Arlathan, the Dales, the Discipes or anyone else for that matter is useless? We know nothing about how they handle the mage issue. Yes, they do not have Chantry oversight, but does that equal they got no oversight at all? No. The Disciples actually got some NPCs called Cult Overseers, they could be overseeing the mages of the cult.

Nerevar-as wrote...

Disciples of Andrastre are not the best example, and and we don´t know how Rivain deals with mages. Dalish elves however seem to manage fine.

We don't know what happens to the multiple apprentices the Keeper got after he picks his First, so far they just seems to "disappear". Also for the Dalish we got no data whatsoever of how they handle the possession issue or how often it happens in their communities.

Nerevar-as wrote...

BTW, a properly trained mage is in no greater danger of going insane than anybody else. Where did people get that notion? And the Harrowing is disapproved of by the Valor spirit too.

The spirit of Valor doesn't know how the physical world works or what threat the demons pose to it. Also he disapproves because it conflicts with his nature, the Harrowing doesn't seem very valorous.

[LobselVith8]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Disciples of Andrastre are not the best example, and and we don´t know how Rivain deals with mages. Dalish elves however seem to manage fine.

BTW, a properly trained mage is in no greater danger of going insane than anybody else. Where did people get that notion? And the Harrowing is disapproved of by the Valor spirit too.

We know the Disciples have been around for roughly 900 years, and abominations haven't destroyed Haven. The codex about Rivain tells us that mages are in leadership positions. They have an alternative to the templars, so it evidently works.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobeselVith8 how many time do we have to explain to you that using Arlathan, the Dales, the Discipes or anyone else for that matter is useless? We know nothing about how they handle the mage issue. Yes, they do not have Chantry oversight, but does that equal they got no oversight at all? No. The Disciples actually got some NPCs called Cult Overseers, they could be overseeing the mages of the cult.

We have Father Eirik in a leadership position at the Chantry of Haven and Kolgrim can be inferred to be a mage from knowing whether the Ashes were destroyed or not. We know they have no templars and still manage - regardless of their means, it's an alternative to the Chantry and the templars that obviously works, because Haven has stood for hundreds of years, and Rivain was instrumental in the peace negotiated between the human nations and the Qunari.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
Disciples of Andrastre are not the best example, and and we don´t know how Rivain deals with mages. Dalish elves however seem to manage fine.

We don't know what happens to the multiple apprentices the Keeper got after he picks his First, so far they just seems to "disappear". Also for the Dalish we got no data whatsoever of how they handle the possession issue or how often it happens in their communities.

There's no evidence to support that they just "disappear," especially when there's about nine named Dalish NPCs who have various tasks at the camp and the others are generic Dalish NPCs that repeat the same dialogue. We do know that the Keeper and the First are mages - so they obviously don't share the same hatred of mages that the Chantry has (evident from Isolde's religious nature and their views on mages, and Greagoir referring to magic as a curse).

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
BTW, a properly trained mage is in no greater danger of going insane than anybody else. Where did people get that notion? And the Harrowing is disapproved of by the Valor spirit too.

The spirit of Valor doesn't know how the physical world works or what threat the demons pose to it. Also he disapproves because it conflicts with his nature, the Harrowing doesn't seem very valorous.

If the Circles of Magi are the only ones who force mages to undergo the Harrowing, it may not even be necessary.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And again you just list a few mages and use that as proof that there is no oversight in any of those societies... You don't know anything about how they control magic in those enviroments and you certainly don't know if what they do is preferable to what the Chantry do. I even gave you a possible example of the Disciples having Overseers, but you elegantly skipped that theory.



And the Harrowing itself may not be neccesary but it is one of the most effective ways of seperating the weak mages who are a threat to everyone, from the strong mages who can take care of themselves.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And again you just list a few mages and use that as proof that there is no oversight in any of those societies... You don't know anything about how they control magic in those enviroments and you certainly don't know if what they do is preferable to what the Chantry do. I even gave you a possible example of the Disciples having Overseers, but you elegantly skipped that theory.

And the Harrowing itself may not be neccesary but it is one of the most effective ways of seperating the weak mages who are a threat to everyone, from the strong mages who can take care of themselves.

I said no Chantry or templar oversight. I also mentioned Father Eirik being head of the Chantry of Haven and the possibility of Kolgrim - head of all the Reavers - and the Dalish clans being lead by mages, who are descended from the leaders of the Dales and Arlathan. Why you think all the other groups emulate the model of the Chantry - especially when mages are evidently in leadership positions - simply doesn't seem plausible.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm not saying they emulate the Chantry model. I'm saying they aren't neccesarily better as you try to make them out to be. And Kolgrim isn't a mage just because he knows wether or not the Ashes were destroyed. There can be hundreds of reasons for why he knew it. Kolgrim is a Reaver. Otherwise he would have to be an Arcane Warrior, and since they have been extinct until the Warden (possibly) resurrected the practice, that isn't an option.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm not saying they emulate the Chantry model. I'm saying they aren't neccesarily better as you try to make them out to be. And Kolgrim isn't a mage just because he knows wether or not the Ashes were destroyed. There can be hundreds of reasons for why he knew it. Kolgrim is a Reaver. Otherwise he would have to be an Arcane Warrior, and since they have been extinct until the Warden (possibly) resurrected the practice, that isn't an option.

Arcane Warriors were ancient elves.

[Daerog]

I'm curious how the barbarian tribes handle mages, if they have mages at all. Such as the Avvars, Chasind, and such. I bet the Chantry does try to get those apostates, but as these tribes can be in remote areas and may wander, they can't all be found.

Such cases of the barbarians and the Dalish tribes don't really seem like a large problem for large nations. They are small magical communities. I just think oversight is needed when a large community of magi is being handled. If something goes terribly wrong, it is just the tribe that gets slaughtered, so it is pretty contained in that regard. Having a mage do something wrong that opens him/herself to possession in the middle of the market in a major city, now that can bring chaos to a nation. So, I don't see a problem with regulating and overseeing the activities of mages.

As for the Harrowing being necessary or not. I doubt other groups do it, personally. It seems like a proper test to me. Take a young adult who has been given years of training for this moment. See if s/he is likely to pass or not, and either give them the test if it is felt they are ready, give them some more time to train, or if they show no hope to pass, offer the Rite of Tranquility. Necessary? Well, all mages could not go through the Harrowing and just pray for the best that the mages are capable. The test is designed for a mage to prove that s/he can resist a demon, and it is like a proof that the mage is not as huge of a threat as untrained mages. They could send enchanters in to help with the demon, putting them in danger as well, but it is supposed to be a test for the individual, who if they can't resist a demon, either has the choice of Tranquility or death. It is sad, but if they prove they can't resist or don't have the willpower to even try the test, then they are "walking time bombs" and have to be dealt with. If the danger of possession is a very real threat to mages and the community they live in, then mages should train to resist such a thing and tested to prove themselves in the community. I would hope that Keepers are given this training, because losing a whole Dalish clan because of a single mage gone crazy would do great harm to the goal of the Dalish.

Arcane Warriors may have started as a tradition among the elves (well, all magic seemed to have started with elves, who taught the Tevinters when captured), but there was a human arcane warrior in game (the illegal Provings), and that Arcane Warrior we "met" did live with humans and may have passed in on to humans as well.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 05 octobre 2010 - 11:25 .

[Sir JK]

I agree with you Daerog, it'd be very interesting to see how non-chantry groups raise their mages. To see the differences, how succesful that is and how large quantities of mages are trained this way. I have a suspicion that many of the Chasind and Avvar do send their mages to the circles though (with exceptions), but it's not something I'd be willing to say for certain.



I also agree in that I think the Harrowing is necessary, methods giving the same result being viable alternatives of course. Not going through it is just waiting for a catastrophe to happen (that does not mean that all mages will be abominofied, but one is one too many). I don't think the Dalish Harrow per ser, but something similar. Something that steels them from possession.

[Riona45]

Sir JK wrote...
I have a suspicion that many of the Chasind and Avvar do send their mages to the circles though (with exceptions), but it's not something I'd be willing to say for certain.

Why would they?  They'd never get them back, and they'd be giving their mages up to a different religion (the barbarians are pagan).

[Sir JK]

Oh right, now I remember that. Sorry, my mistake.

The pagan ones would of course not hand magelings over, except possibly if there's a squad of templars there asking and the tribe don't think it's worth the fuss. Or if the Chasind/Avvar simply don't like mages and gladly hands them over I suppose... all speculative of course.

[Morroian]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And again you just list a few mages and use that as proof that there is no oversight in any of those societies... You don't know anything about how they control magic in those enviroments and you certainly don't know if what they do is preferable to what the Chantry do. I even gave you a possible example of the Disciples having Overseers, but you elegantly skipped that theory.

You can' t draw any conclusions either, the fact that Dalish leaders are mages would provide some indication that mages have greater status in their society and thus would be treated with more respect. No-one is saying there should be no oversight,  any group dealing with mages in their midst would have to have some sort of oversight and training, we are saying it doesn't need to be as oppressive as the templars.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Doyle41 wrote...
There are mainly 2 reasons mages turn to blood magic. Desperation to escape the chantry's rule and being caged by templars, or they are trying to acquire greater powers.

You forget curiosity.
And it's not about templar strictness in general...The rules could be far less strict, and there would still be mages that would oppose them. It's the nature of the beast.

 Why could they not just have mages registered and collect their phylactary? To live and move about freely?

Becasue you cannot contain abominations that happen as a result.
Use of blood magic or an abomination that happen in hte tower, stay in the tower.

If a mage started using blood magic on a village or became an abomination, by the time the templars responded, the vilage would already be gone.

Do you gamble with the lives of thousands to accomodate the lives of dozens?

Yep, if I were a mage I would be afraid of these guys too. Like I said before, fear can cause great harm to a particular cause. People will go to great lengths to protect themselves (e.g.) Jowan.

True, but Jowan WAS a blood mage. THEY truly have something to fear. Mages that cooperate and don't use blood magic are brought to the circle, not killed.


Also, the idea that templars enjoy killing mages...a fw unhinged ones, maybe. But generally? No. The templars you meet in the game are all civil and understanding if you're a mage. Cullen himself tells you he would feel terrible if he had to put you down.
Think about this for a second people - templars live in those tower with the mages - they are together every day, for years. Weather they want it or not, they get to know eachother. A circle mage is not a nobody to a cirlce templar. Having to kill a person you known, a person you repsected for years - that is not easy. If anything, I'd expect most templars don't like their jobs precisely because they mahe to kill mages they know.

by LobselVith8
And it never would have happened if children weren't taken away from
their families by the Chantry, where they can be expected to survive,
get killed by a sword of mercy, or turned into an emotionless
rune-crafting slave. The Dalish, the Disciples, the elves of the Dales
and Arlathan, and the mages of Rivian don't seem to have an issue, and
none of them had Chantry oversight.

It never would have happened? How do you know that? The demons would just ignore Connor if the Chantry rules weren't there?
And again, we do not know what kind of oversight those groups have. For all we know, the Disciples could have their own version for the tower, and the mages we saw were out on a mission.

And neither of it nullifies the inherent danger a mage presents.

Rediculous? I'm not sure what's more ridiculous,
your inaccurate arguments - like when you claim abominations are
handing out quests for the Mages Collective and denying you every said
it even when presented with the links and quotes - or your incessant
need to start a debate with me on every thread.

A claim I never made, a claim your own quotes could not confirm because it NEVER HAPPENED.

And yes - a redicolous argument, because you use a SINGLE hear-say (X said Y said) line out of context as proof for regular behavior among a groups....something that is in itself redicolous and defies logic.
Compounded with the fact that that same line is used in the real world by soldiers and policemen, and neither of those two groups is full of murdering lunatics.
So yeah...for the love of God Almighty, start putting some thought in your replies. You're making this look too  easy.

Considering the VO for the Magi Origin calls it a prison, I'm going to disagree with you there and say it's a prison. 
As
for the necessity of the Chantry and templars, I have to disagre - the
lack of templars and the Chantry in Rivain, the Dalish clans, and the
Disciples of Andraste show they aren't necessary, the latter having
survived in Haven for roughly 900 years with a pro-mage policy.

You don't know their policy. You don't know their methods and practices and laws.
So throwing them out there as a better or safer alternative than templars, is redicolous.

You throw assumptions around like crazy and repeat yourself like crazy too.
From "Kolgrim is a mage" to "old elves had no oversight" and other such crap. YOU CANNOT CLAIM THINGS AS FACT JUST BECAUSE YOU LIKE EM.

by Nrevar-as
BTW, a properly trained mage is in no greater danger of going insane
than anybody else. Where did people get that notion? And the Harrowing
is disapproved of by the Valor spirit too.

Icorrect. Mages have a constant lik with the Fade and demons are attreacted to them like moths to the flame.
Regular people are almost invisible to demons in comparison, and the link is basicly when they dream.

Unless by "going isane" you mean going insane in the regular way, and not possesion type insane...

If the Circles of Magi are the only ones who force mages to undergo the Harrowing, it may not even be necessary.

IIRC, the Tevinter Cricle also uses the Harrowing, and it is a anncient test, predating the Chatnry.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Morroian wrote...

You can' t draw any conclusions either, the fact that Dalish leaders are mages would provide some indication that mages have greater status in their society and thus would be treated with more respect. No-one is saying there should be no oversight,  any group dealing with mages in their midst would have to have some sort of oversight and training, we are saying it doesn't need to be as oppressive as the templars.

Control method used would depends on tthe conditions and number of mages.

As I said before, a method used to monitor a few mages in a small congregation cannot be effectively used when scaled out to a whole country.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm not saying they emulate the Chantry model. I'm saying they aren't neccesarily better as you try to make them out to be. And Kolgrim isn't a mage just because he knows wether or not the Ashes were destroyed. There can be hundreds of reasons for why he knew it. Kolgrim is a Reaver. Otherwise he would have to be an Arcane Warrior, and since they have been extinct until the Warden (possibly) resurrected the practice, that isn't an option.

Arcane Warriors were ancient elves.

What does that have to do with anything in my post? All it prooves is that it is just even less likely Kolgrim is a mage.

[Risax]

When did my thread become so populair?

[LobselVith8]

Risax wrote...

When did my thread become so populair?

Mages are very popular around here.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm not saying they emulate the Chantry model. I'm saying they aren't neccesarily better as you try to make them out to be. And Kolgrim isn't a mage just because he knows wether or not the Ashes were destroyed. There can be hundreds of reasons for why he knew it. Kolgrim is a Reaver. Otherwise he would have to be an Arcane Warrior, and since they have been extinct until the Warden (possibly) resurrected the practice, that isn't an option.

Arcane Warriors were ancient elves.

What does that have to do with anything in my post? All it prooves is that it is just even less likely Kolgrim is a mage.

I think you're confusing game mechanics with lore, and you haven't explained how Kolgrim magically knew about the fate of the Ashes. Kolgrim being a mage is certainly a possibility.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

You can' t draw any conclusions either, the fact that Dalish leaders are mages would provide some indication that mages have greater status in their society and thus would be treated with more respect. No-one is saying there should be no oversight,  any group dealing with mages in their midst would have to have some sort of oversight and training, we are saying it doesn't need to be as oppressive as the templars.

Control method used would depends on tthe conditions and number of mages.

As I said before, a method used to monitor a few mages in a small congregation cannot be effectively used when scaled out to a whole country.

Or we could look to the Dales, Arlathan, and Rivain for alternatives to the Chantry and the templars imprisoning innocent people to their rule, since mages were in leadership positions in those nations (as we know since the Dalish clan leaders who are mages were descended from the leaders of the Dales and Arlathan).

[Nerevar-as]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Or we could look to the Dales, Arlathan, and Rivain for alternatives to the Chantry and the templars imprisoning innocent people to their rule, since mages were in leadership positions in those nations (as we know since the Dalish clan leaders who are mages were descended from the leaders of the Dales and Arlathan).

Do we now what Rivain does? They are a bit close to the Qun, so maybe they follow their methods.

[Bullets McDeath]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Risax wrote...

When did my thread become so populair?

Mages are very popular around here.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm not saying they emulate the Chantry model. I'm saying they aren't neccesarily better as you try to make them out to be. And Kolgrim isn't a mage just because he knows wether or not the Ashes were destroyed. There can be hundreds of reasons for why he knew it. Kolgrim is a Reaver. Otherwise he would have to be an Arcane Warrior, and since they have been extinct until the Warden (possibly) resurrected the practice, that isn't an option.

Arcane Warriors were ancient elves.

What does that have to do with anything in my post? All it prooves is that it is just even less likely Kolgrim is a mage.

I think you're confusing game mechanics with lore, and you haven't explained how Kolgrim magically knew about the fate of the Ashes. Kolgrim being a mage is certainly a possibility.

I'm pretty sure Kolgrim knows the fate of the ashes through the mystic art of Bullsh!t, which were taught to him by the dastardly unseen villain they call THE PLOT.

[LobselVith8]

Nerevar-as wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Or we could look to the Dales, Arlathan, and Rivain for alternatives to the Chantry and the templars imprisoning innocent people to their rule, since mages were in leadership positions in those nations (as we know since the Dalish clan leaders who are mages were descended from the leaders of the Dales and Arlathan).

Do we now what Rivain does? They are a bit close to the Qun, so maybe they follow their methods.

Brother Genitivi provides a codex for Rivain that can be found at the Gnawed Noble Tavern:

Nowhere in my travels, not in the heart of the Imperium nor the streets of Orzammar, have I felt so much an outsider as in Rivain.

The Chant of Light never truly reached the ears of these people. The years they spent under the thumb of the qunari left most of the country zealous followers of the Qun. But resistance to the Chant goes deeper than the Qunari War. The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to become possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition.

From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi.

outlaworacle wrote...

I'm pretty sure Kolgrim knows the fate of the ashes through the mystic art of Bullsh!t, which were taught to him by the dastardly unseen villain they call THE PLOT.

Or he's possibly a mage Reaver and doesn't adhere to game mechanics.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 06 octobre 2010 - 06:20 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nowhere in my travels, not in the heart of the Imperium nor the streets of Orzammar, have I felt so much an outsider as in Rivain.

The Chant of Light never truly reached the ears of these people. The years they spent under the thumb of the qunari left most of the country zealous followers of the Qun. But resistance to the Chant goes deeper than the Qunari War. The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to become possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition.

From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi.

Rivain for DA3.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 06 octobre 2010 - 06:45 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Or we could look to the Dales, Arlathan, and Rivain for alternatives to the Chantry and the templars imprisoning innocent people to their rule, since mages were in leadership positions in those nations (as we know since the Dalish clan leaders who are mages were descended from the leaders of the Dales and Arlathan).

Do we now what Rivain does? They are a bit close to the Qun, so maybe they follow their methods.

Brother Genitivi provides a codex for Rivain that can be found at the Gnawed Noble Tavern:

Nowhere in my travels, not in the heart of the Imperium nor the streets of Orzammar, have I felt so much an outsider as in Rivain.

The Chant of Light never truly reached the ears of these people. The years they spent under the thumb of the qunari left most of the country zealous followers of the Qun. But resistance to the Chant goes deeper than the Qunari War. The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to become possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition.

From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi.

outlaworacle wrote...

I'm pretty sure Kolgrim knows the fate of the ashes through the mystic art of Bullsh!t, which were taught to him by the dastardly unseen villain they call THE PLOT.

Or he's possibly a mage Reaver and doesn't adhere to game mechanics.

So you pull out Rivain, a country where they allow themselves to be possessed and use it as an example of a country where they treat their mages better and are safe from possession?...... Nice....

And there is nothing in the game to indicate Kolgrim is a mage. You got your theory, but it is not our jpob to prove it wrong, but your job to prove it. Until you do prove it, then Kolgrim is definitely not a mage.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Interesting how he's only capable of seeing the difference between lore and game mechanics when it suits him...