172 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

The Rivain lore is interesting. Do their mages pull a Wynne, is Genitivi a biased unreliable narrator, or do they actually allow mages to be possessed by demons? That last is hard to believe, the only demonic posession we´ve seen which hasn´t ended in disaster would be the one from DS Chronicles if it also applies outside the what-if.

[Morroian]

Nerevar-as wrote...

The Rivain lore is interesting. Do their mages pull a Wynne, is Genitivi a biased unreliable narrator, or do they actually allow mages to be possessed by demons? That last is hard to believe, the only demonic posession we´ve seen which hasn´t ended in disaster would be the one from DS Chronicles if it also applies outside the what-if.

I interpret it as being the same as Wynne because as you say the alternative would spell disaster for the country, which implies mages have more control over getting possessed than some here are interpreting.

[Risax]

What happens to the children of mages?
I know they are taken away by the Chantry, but then what?

Do they first wait and see if the child has magical abilities him/herself?
And when he does, does (s)he get send to the Circle where (s)he came from? Or to a diffrent one so that the parents can't interact with him/her.

And when the child doesn't have any magical abillities?
Is (s)he raised by the Chantry as a priest(ess)? Or maybe a Templar?
Or is (s)he given to another family?

Modifié par Risax, 09 octobre 2010 - 10:29 .

[Sir JK]

Risax wrote...

What happens to the children of mages?
I know they are taken away by the Chantry, but then what?

Do they first wait and see if the child has magical abilities him/herself?
And when he does, does (s)he get send to the Circle where (s)he came from? Or to a diffrent one so that the parents can't interact with him/her.

And when the child doesn't have any magical abillities?
Is (s)he raised by the Chantry as a priest(ess)? Or maybe a Templar?
Or is (s)he given to another family?

Given that most mages manifest their ability around their teens (the youngest when they're 8-9 like Wynne and Connor, but the oldest are almost adult) I doubt they sit and wait to see if the child is a mage or not. They put them in education and if they exhibit powers later they send them to a circle.  My guess would be to the closest one, I'd be extremely impractical to send a fereldan child to Antiva just to keep them separate from their parents after all (unless they are being educated in Antiva, then that'd be different).
I don't think that the idea was ever to separate mages from their children as such, but to keep the children safe from the mages. Thus taking them from the circle and then assuming the responsebility for that child by giving them a chantry education (which s more or less the theodosian equalient of a university education fully paid for, not too shabby).

[Vit246]

The Rivain lore is interesting. Do their mages pull a Wynne, is Genitivi
a biased unreliable narrator, or do they actually allow mages to be
possessed by demons? That last is hard to believe, the only demonic
posession we´ve seen which hasn´t ended in disaster would be the one
from DS Chronicles if it also applies outside the what-if.

Not demons. Benevolent spirits. And the possessions sound more symbiotic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

We need moar info...

[Risax]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

We need moar info...

Well...yes.
But the devs probably don't want to answers because they can be spoilerific.

Though David Gaider responded to some questions, so maybe there is hope?

Modifié par Risax, 11 octobre 2010 - 01:52 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Or we could look to the Dales, Arlathan, and Rivain for alternatives to the Chantry and the templars imprisoning innocent people to their rule, since mages were in leadership positions in those nations (as we know since the Dalish clan leaders who are mages were descended from the leaders of the Dales and Arlathan).

Do we now what Rivain does? They are a bit close to the Qun, so maybe they follow their methods.

Brother Genitivi provides a codex for Rivain that can be found at the Gnawed Noble Tavern:

Nowhere in my travels, not in the heart of the Imperium nor the streets of Orzammar, have I felt so much an outsider as in Rivain.

The Chant of Light never truly reached the ears of these people. The years they spent under the thumb of the qunari left most of the country zealous followers of the Qun. But resistance to the Chant goes deeper than the Qunari War. The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to become possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition.

From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi.

outlaworacle wrote...

I'm pretty sure Kolgrim knows the fate of the ashes through the mystic art of Bullsh!t, which were taught to him by the dastardly unseen villain they call THE PLOT.

Or he's possibly a mage Reaver and doesn't adhere to game mechanics.

So you pull out Rivain, a country where they allow themselves to be possessed and use it as an example of a country where they treat their mages better and are safe from possession?...... Nice....

Along with Arlathan, the Dales, the Dalish clans that are lead by mages who are descended from the leaders of the Dales and Arlathan, and the Disciples of Andraste.

And there's no indication that Rivain is lead by abominations. The possessions could be entirely symbiotic, and Wynne is a perfect example of a fully functioning person who is possessed by a spirit.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And there is nothing in the game to indicate Kolgrim is a mage. You got your theory, but it is not our jpob to prove it wrong, but your job to prove it. Until you do prove it, then Kolgrim is definitely not a mage.

Except his knowledge about the fate of the Urns implying that he could be one, as I proposed the possibility. I never said it was a definitive truth.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Interesting how he's only capable of seeing the difference between lore and game mechanics when it suits him...

And this, coming from the person who claimed apostates and abominations were handing out quests for the Mages Collective. Maybe you shouldn't be so eager to make snide remarks, all things considered.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except his knowledge about the fate of the Urns implying that he could be one, as I proposed the possibility. I never said it was a definitive truth.

I was always under the impression that the dragon told him or somehow signaled it. After all, it was the dragon that wanted it destroyed for some reason. Once it felt they were destroyed it made Kolgrim know. That's the impression I got.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except his knowledge about the fate of the Urns implying that he could be one, as I proposed the possibility. I never said it was a definitive truth.

I was always under the impression that the dragon told him or somehow signaled it. After all, it was the dragon that wanted it destroyed for some reason. Once it felt they were destroyed it made Kolgrim know. That's the impression I got.

See, I didn't get the dragon involved at all and Kolgrim still figured out that I'd stabbed him in the slimy little behind.  I'd imagine that there's a lot of magical energy in the Gauntlet leading up to the Urn, and anyone gifted in magic (doesn't have to be Kolgrim since there were mages among his cultists) could generally sense what was going on.

[Sir JK]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
See, I didn't get the dragon involved at all and Kolgrim still figured out that I'd stabbed him in the slimy little behind.  I'd imagine that there's a lot of magical energy in the Gauntlet leading up to the Urn, and anyone gifted in magic (doesn't have to be Kolgrim since there were mages among his cultists) could generally sense what was going on.

But he do say that it is Andraste (the dragon) that want the ashes destroyed. And he do speak with it if you do accept his offer from the get go. And if you don't kill him when first you meet him, then he will be outside... just like he was if he spoke with the dragon (and consider that there is some time for you to get out, perhaps enough for the dragon to tell him... or it's just the lack of reaction all together that makes him realise).

Doesn't the codex also mention that dragon cults have a mental link of sorts with the dragon?

[Sable Rhapsody]

Sir JK wrote...
But he do say that it is Andraste (the dragon) that want the ashes destroyed. And he do speak with it if you do accept his offer from the get go. And if you don't kill him when first you meet him, then he will be outside... just like he was if he spoke with the dragon (and consider that there is some time for you to get out, perhaps enough for the dragon to tell him... or it's just the lack of reaction all together that makes him realise).

Doesn't the codex also mention that dragon cults have a mental link of sorts with the dragon?

It does, sort of.  The thing is that if you never engage or confront the dragon, and I don't remember the dragon confronting you unless you initiate hostilities first, the dragon's just hanging out up there on that mountain.  Unless it's got magical sensing abilities, I don't think the dragon would be any the wiser as to what you had or hadn't done.

[Sir JK]

I suppose it boils down to personal interpretation, to me it's the dragon to you it's not. Unless we get anything to confirm those are unlikely to change. Wether he is a mage or not I'd say is largely irellevant anyways.

[Daerog]

Kolgrim was insane. Crazy, if that is a better term. He bent his new faith to the affects that the dragon's blood was having on him. So, he and his followers were bent on a single goal of serving the dragon, and since the faith in that area was Andrastian, the connection was made by Kolgrim's ancestors that the dragon was Andraste reborn to smooth the transition to a dragon cult. The draconic blood gave them strength, endurance, and made them believe themselves to be powerful, and it made them slowly go crazy, fanatical in their devotion to the High Dragon.

The problem with their Andrastian background and their new faith in the high dragon was the issue of the temple and the Ashes, their original charge. Such a case where it is believed that Andraste is risen and the evidence of Andraste's death must have caused tension within the minds of the cultists, so it is decided that, "Oh, Andraste wants us to put dragon blood in the Ashes to symbolize her rebirth, it makes perfect sense!" So, Kolgrim believes it is what "Andraste" wishes, not that the dragon actually talked to him about it. I don't think the high dragon is some sort of mastermind or very inteligent, but just an animal following its nature, having others drink from its blood in order to gain an extra work force and protection for its lair.

Edit: I'm not completely sure, could be wrong, never agreed to go with Kolgrim's plan or let him live, always fought him when first encountered so far.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 12 octobre 2010 - 12:28 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Sir JK wrote...

I suppose it boils down to personal interpretation, to me it's the dragon to you it's not. Unless we get anything to confirm those are unlikely to change. Wether he is a mage or not I'd say is largely irellevant anyways.

I'm working under the assumption that the High Dragons are highly intelligent (but nonsentient) animals.  If we were talking about an Old God or an Archdemon, something considerably more powerful with at least stories about it being capable of thought and consciousness, then I guess I'd give the dragon more credence.

That aside, Kolgrim's capabilities could, as has been mentioned, very well fall into the realm of the Spirit Warrior or the Templar--kind of magic.  At any rate, Reavers are awesome.  Even if I did save-reload just to get it.

[Daerog]

From the Dragon Cult codex thing:

"Members of a dragon cult live in the same lair as a high dragon, nurturing and protecting its defenseless young. In exchange, the high dragon seem to permit those cultists to kill a small number of those young in order to feast on draconic blood. That blood is said to have a number of strange long-term effects, including bestowing greater strength and endurance, as well as an increased desire to kill. It may breed insanity as well. Nevarran dragon-hunters have said these cultists are incredibly powerful opponents. The changes in the cultists are a form of blood magic, surely, but how did the symbiotic relationship between the cult and the high dragon form in the first place? How did the cultists know to drink the dragon's blood? How did the high dragon convince them to care for its young, or know that they would?"


So, I suppose it is like the Templars and Spirit Warriors in the sense that they are having blood magic affect them in a way to improve some of their strengths, while changing their mental state. Templars take in lyrium, Spirit Warriors take in spirits, Reavers Dragon Cultists take in blood that has an impact on them.

Edit: Dragon cultists, not necessarily all reavers, I think. Helps with getting Reaver abilities, though.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 12 octobre 2010 - 12:34 .

[Sir JK]

Daerog: I agree, I just kind of always assumed the dragon wanted the temple for it's lair but that it couldn't approach due to the guardian and that somehow managed to point that out to Kolgrim who put two and two together.



Sable: Absolutely, I did the very same thing (plus Kolgrim "talking" to the dragon... awesome cutscene).

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except his knowledge about the fate of the Urns implying that he could be one, as I proposed the possibility. I never said it was a definitive truth.

Strange how you write "he is a mage" instead of "he COULD/MIGHT be a mage"..you present your theories as facts.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Interesting how he's only capable of seeing the difference between lore and game mechanics when it suits him...

And this, coming from the person who claimed apostates and abominations were handing out quests for the Mages Collective. Maybe you shouldn't be so eager to make snide remarks, all things considered.

Once again, I never said that. The quotes you posted yourself to prove that failed miserably.
You're just making yourself look silly by trying to push that "issue".

[Dsentinel]

First of all, it is quite obvious that not all maleficarum become abominations. Just look at Morrigan and Flemeth. Sure all mages will have to deal with the fade and abominations, but I believe it is based on the individuals willpower, not solely on their study. I look at this situation like the Jedi and Sith. The Mage's Circle would be considered the Jedi, the Maleficarum/Apostates the Sith. You can jump into the darkside to gain power, but if u delve too deep you can lose yourself forever. Flemeth has seemingly always been a maleficarum (aka a Witch working outside the Mage circle), yet she is probably one of the most powerful witches within the DA:O setting. But the more information we learn of her, the more twisted and dark she becomes.

Modifié par Dsentinel, 12 octobre 2010 - 07:52 .

[Riona45]

Dsentinel wrote...

First of all, it is quite obvious that not all maleficarum become abominations. Just look at Morrigan and Flemeth.

Well, according to what Morrigan says in WH, Flemeth is not a blood mage or an abomination. 

I look at this situation like the Jedi and Sith. The Mage's Circle would be considered the Jedi, the Maleficarum/Apostates the Sith. You can jump into the darkside to gain power, but if u delve too deep you can lose yourself forever.

 
An "apostate" is simply a mage who isn't part of a Circle (and isn't a Grey Warden, incidentally).  It's considered unlawful but it doesn't necessarily mean they are delving into the "dark arts."  You can't use "maleficar" and "apostate" interchangably.  And we know from DA:O that some Circle mages do delve into the "dark arts."

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except his knowledge about the fate of the Urns implying that he could be one, as I proposed the possibility. I never said it was a definitive truth.

Strange how you write "he is a mage" instead of "he COULD/MIGHT be a mage"..you present your theories as facts.

So suggesting that Kolgrim may be a mage as an explanation for his knowledge about the Urn is actually me saying its indisputable truth? You realize that logic doesn't really make any sense, right?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Interesting how he's only capable of seeing the difference between lore and game mechanics when it suits him...

And this, coming from the person who claimed apostates and abominations were handing out quests for the Mages Collective. Maybe you shouldn't be so eager to make snide remarks, all things considered.

Once again, I never said that. The quotes you posted yourself to prove that failed miserably.
You're just making yourself look silly by trying to push that "issue".

You mean you never wrote this?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are free mages; are you forgetting about the mages of the Mages Collective, who police themselves?

You mean the bunch full of blood mages and abominations that hires other people to take care of their mess?

Yes, very effective..especially given that they're so spread out, that by the time any action is taken, the blood mage/abomination has already done enough damage.

That link seems to show that you did, and so do the following posts that quote that same passage. Please feel free to stop responding to any future posts or replies I make altogether.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You realize than in that quote he never states that the Blood Mages and Abominations rule the collective? All he says in that quote is that there are Blood Mages and Abominations in their midst. Which there most likely is, at some point or another. Yet you decided to interpret it as him saying that they all were or at least were ruled by, and it all went from there.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You realize than in that quote he never states that the Blood Mages and Abominations rule the collective? All he says in that quote is that there are Blood Mages and Abominations in their midst. Which there most likely is, at some point or another. Yet you decided to interpret it as him saying that they all were or at least were ruled by, and it all went from there.

He responded to my comment about the Mages Collective by stating they were blood mages and abominations handing out quests for the Mages Collective. There's no evidence in DA:O that any members of the Collective were abominations. Saying that there were is speculation - but he said it as though it was indisputable truth, and it's exactly what you and he were claiming that I was doing when I said that Kolgrim might be a mage. You're free to defend him, as you typically do, but it doesn't change what he said. There's absolutely no evidence in lore or the game to show that there are any abominations among the Collective or handing out quests - he basically fan fic'd that into the discussion.

Instead of derailing this thread any further with this nonsense, I'm going to let this be the last I have to say on this issue.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 12 octobre 2010 - 05:09 .