2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Commander Kurt]

Finnish Dragon wrote...

I have wondered how did the Collectors get that base begin with? We know that they or their ancestors were once Protheans.

I have been thinking along these same lines. If the reapers gave them the base after indoctrination, then what happened to the previous collectors (who were collecting for a new reaper last time one was made)? If the protheans didn't find them and conquer their base, why would the reapers replace them?

[Dean_the_Young]

Possibly there were none: the Prothean quad-strand genetic structure is implied to be unique in all (known) galactic history. Whether by chance or accident of evolution, it may have been that the Protheans were the first 'impossible' species they Reapers wanted, but failed, to ascend, and so rather than ascend them they were made to exist in some other useful form.

Or something else. I did make a thread once about who collected the Collectors awhile back.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 septembre 2010 - 01:45 .

[UNAVAILABLE]

Finnish Dragon wrote...

I have wondered how did the Collectors get that base begin with? We know that they or their ancestors were once Protheans. I have come up with two possible scenarios:
 

I would suggest that the Reapers mutated the Collectors then forced them to build the base. The only thing I have to support this idea is the insect/hive theme. That is to say, the Collectors appear to be insectoid in nature, the Collector ship and base appear to have insect hive-like architecture. The part of the Base directly connected to the Reaper factory looks different (like Reaper tech).

This leads me to believe that the Reapers forced the Collectors to build the Base to certain general specifications (size, strength) but had them use the Protheans own construction methods to do so. After all why have your slaves use construction methods that may be alien and unsuited to their physiology when they don't need to? Then Reapers would have the Collectors build certain complex systems (such as the factory, the shielding) to more exacting Reaper tech specs using Reaper construction methods.

But again, this is just the impression I got from the style of the artwork, not in game dialogue/info. From a logical standpoint, I would think the Base predates the Protheans.

[mosor]

General User wrote...


If the question is “where else can effective counter-Reaper technology be developed?” Then the answer is, simply: ANYWHERE!  EVERYWHERE! As I’ve posted before, logic says the galactic state-of-the-art is already quite close to the Reaper’s tech level, a century at the outside, and as little as ten years.

Personally, I don't think we're anywhere near Reaper level technology. We don't come close to knowing everything there is to know about Reapers and that there is nothing to base your assumption on just how far the technology gap really is. The more we know about reapers, their tech, their defences, their tricks, the higher probablility more lives will be saved even if defeating them is a given.

Look at what Miranda was able to accomplish in the Lazarus project, and that was with a small staff working in relative isolation. Assuming EDI was developed in the same location as the SR-2, a “remote location in the Voyager Cluster” could be a major source of anti-Reaper tech. The thanix was developed in a turian military laboratory somewhere, that already is another prime candidate for anti-Reaper weapons.  The asari-made silaris armour seems to be quite effective against lighter Reaper craft.

These points really show why it's smart to keep the base. Cerberus developed EDI and anti-reaper algorithms just using the wreckage. What more could be develo[ed if they had the collector base earlier. Having more informaton is always better than having less.

Fear  is a bit of a double edged sword in this case. If blowing up the base because one is “afraid of what TIM might do with it” is unwise, so too is keeping the base because one is “afraid of what the Reapers might do to us.”

Worst case scenario for a Cerberus victory. Human dominance, humanity acting like jackbooted thugs, cult of personality built around TIM as a dictator (I really don't believe the last couple points, but lets just say for argument's sake that this will indeed be the case)

Worst case for Reaper victory: Galactic extinction for all advanced sentinet life.

Extinction is many magnitudes worse than what Cerberus can do. So the worst case scenario in option one may be odius, but it's better than being dead.
 

[Finnish Dragon]

mosor wrote...



Personally, I don't think we're anywhere near Reaper level technology. We don't come close to knowing everything there is to know about Reapers and that there is nothing to base your assumption on just how far the technology gap really is. The more we know about reapers, their tech, their defences, their tricks, the higher probablility more lives will be saved even if defeating them is a given.

This is probably true. However, we know that the Reapers can be killed by using mass accelerators like that derelict reaper at Klendagon some 37 million years ago. I think trying to find that mass accelerator or it´s blueprints will be more important than taking the Collector Base. If that can be done then it could be possible to produce more mass accelerators and equip larger ships to use them against the Collectors.



It would be risky to follow the tech path created by the Reapers. They may have created traps there providing false information. I think it is a better idea to develop alternative techs because then the Reapers cannot be sure what they will encounter when they again invade the Milky Way. Reaper can probably predict pretty well what kind of information is stored at the Collector Base because they provided it but if organic races can develop something new then it could be a secret trump card against the Reapers.

These points really show why it's smart to keep the base. Cerberus developed EDI and anti-reaper algorithms just using the wreckage. What more could be develo[ed if they had the collector base earlier. Having more informaton is always better than having less.

That is not always true, There must be confirmation that the information is valid and true. Feeding the enemy with false information is an old trick. That is why I would be very sceptical until I can confirm the suspicious information.

Worst case scenario for a Cerberus victory. Human dominance, humanity acting like jackbooted thugs, cult of personality built around TIM as a dictator (I really don't believe the last couple points, but lets just say for argument's sake that this will indeed be the case)



Worst case for Reaper victory: Galactic extinction for all advanced sentinet life.



Extinction is many magnitudes worse than what Cerberus can do. So the worst case scenario in option one may be odius, but it's better than being dead.

I disagree. The worst case scenario for keeping the base would be that the Reapers would taking it back if it is able to indoctrinate the crew assigned to that base. Then the Reapers could use it to produce more Reapers once they are attacking the organic races and transport captured humans there. The genocide in galactic scale will probably take at least decades but it could take centuries. During that time, the Reapers could use the base to produce reinforcements. In the end, the base probably won´t provide much information about the Reapers because the common sense says that the Reapers probably gave the Collectors information on need-to-know basis.

[wizardryforever]

I think it makes sense to assume that there is some kind of indoctrination tech on the base.  Since this is where the Collectors were cloned, they had to indoctrinate the clones, right?  The same Collectors haven't been manning the base for 50,000 years.  They had to have some way of ensuring the organic components of the Collectors didn't resist their orders.

Also, one of the most glaring flaws here is: what is stopping the Reapers from simply taking the base back once they get here?  There would be nothing we could do to stop them from doing so, then they could simply reboot the Collectors (clone some more) and they would be back to full strength, in addition to the Reaper fleet bearing down on us.  At least if the base is destroyed they would have to rebuild it from scratch.  And seriously, considering how much research and tech came out of looking at Sovereign's wreckage, there's no reason we couldn't simply do the same with the Collector base wreckage.  This kinda punches a hole in the "if you destroy the base you're left with nothing" argument.

Just pointing out some ideas here, not saying I absolutely must be right.

[General User]

mosor wrote...

General User wrote...


If the question is “where else can effective counter-Reaper technology be developed?” Then the answer is, simply: ANYWHERE!  EVERYWHERE! As I’ve posted before, logic says the galactic state-of-the-art is already quite close to the Reaper’s tech level, a century at the outside, and as little as ten years.

Personally, I don't think we're anywhere near Reaper level technology. We don't come close to knowing everything there is to know about Reapers and that there is nothing to base your assumption on just how far the technology gap really is. The more we know about reapers, their tech, their defences, their tricks, the higher probablility more lives will be saved even if defeating them is a given.

Look at what Miranda was able to accomplish in the Lazarus project, and that was with a small staff working in relative isolation. Assuming EDI was developed in the same location as the SR-2, a “remote location in the Voyager Cluster” could be a major source of anti-Reaper tech. The thanix was developed in a turian military laboratory somewhere, that already is another prime candidate for anti-Reaper weapons.  The asari-made silaris armour seems to be quite effective against lighter Reaper craft.

These points really show why it's smart to keep the base. Cerberus developed EDI and anti-reaper algorithms just using the wreckage. What more could be develo[ed if they had the collector base earlier. Having more informaton is always better than having less.

Well… while all those examples support my position, all they really prove by themselves is that we have some incredibly smart people on our side. 
 
I cited those specific examples to show that, so far, successful anti-Reaper measures have not been dependent on any particular resource or astrographic location. They could also be cited as successful reverse engineering efforts (though, to my knowledge, the silaris armour was a home-grown asari development).
 
On the subject of reverse engineering, while I go into it in greater depth on the previous page, my basic point was that two societies must be relatively close to one another in terms of technology for reverse engineering to be feasible at all. Much less reverse engineering from burnt, smashed bits and chunks in less than two years.
 
I based my analysis on the size of the tech gap on pure reason. I’ve noticed no flaws in my reasoning (then again one seldom does notice flaws in one’s own reasoning). If you have, I would be grateful if you could point them out.
 
I don’t think keeping the base is a bad idea, just not the best one in this particular instance.

Worst case scenario for a Cerberus victory. Human dominance, humanity acting like jackbooted thugs, cult of personality built around TIM as a dictator (I really don't believe the last couple points, but lets just say for argument's sake that this will indeed be the case)

Worst case for Reaper victory: Galactic extinction for all advanced sentinet life.

Extinction is many magnitudes worse than what Cerberus can do. So the worst case scenario in option one may be odius, but it's better than being dead.

The worst the Reapers would do is to continue the extinction cycle, for whatever reason, they need organic life. We are in the fortunate position of NOT needing them.
Personally I’m not too worried about Cerberus (or humans in general for that matter); those guys couldn’t run a fruit stand without getting half their staff killed.

[LorDC]

wizardryforever wrote...
I think it makes sense to assume that there is some kind of indoctrination tech on the base.  Since this is where the Collectors were cloned, they had to indoctrinate the clones, right?  The same Collectors haven't been manning the base for 50,000 years.  They had to have some way of ensuring the organic components of the Collectors didn't resist their orders.

Mordin words suggest that Collectors weren't indoctrinated but made already obeying.

wizardryforever wrote...
Also, one of the most glaring flaws here is: what is stopping the Reapers from simply taking the base back once they get here?  There would be nothing we could do to stop them from doing so, then they could simply reboot the Collectors (clone some more) and they would be back to full strength, in addition to the Reaper fleet bearing down on us.  At least if the base is destroyed they would have to rebuild it from scratch.  And seriously, considering how much research and tech came out of looking at Sovereign's wreckage, there's no reason we couldn't simply do the same with the Collector base wreckage.  This kinda punches a hole in the "if you destroy the base you're left with nothing" argument.

Just pointing out some ideas here, not saying I absolutely must be right.

When Reapers will get here base will not mean anything at all. The only Collectors' strength were subtlety and technological power. Former is gone and Reapers obviously outmatch them in later.

[Dean_the_Young]

wizardryforever wrote...

I think it makes sense to assume that there is some kind of indoctrination tech on the base.  Since this is where the Collectors were cloned, they had to indoctrinate the clones, right?  The same Collectors haven't been manning the base for 50,000 years.  They had to have some way of ensuring the organic components of the Collectors didn't resist their orders.

Yes and no. Yes, they are indoctrinated. No, indoctrination fields are not necessary for it: cybernetics can do it just as well, and the Collectors are known to be heavily cybernetic.

Also, one of the most glaring flaws here is: what is stopping the Reapers from simply taking the base back once they get here?  There would be nothing we could do to stop them from doing so, then they could simply reboot the Collectors (clone some more) and they would be back to full strength, in addition to the Reaper fleet bearing down on us.  At least if the base is destroyed they would have to rebuild it from scratch.  And seriously, considering how much research and tech came out of looking at Sovereign's wreckage, there's no reason we couldn't simply do the same with the Collector base wreckage.  This kinda punches a hole in the "if you destroy the base you're left with nothing" argument.

Ignorring that destroying the base before they reach the Relay is always an option?

By the point the Reapers can gather enough humans to make more Reapers, Humanity has already lost the war. If they can't get enough humans, the base doesn't provide anything they don't already have. Nothing prevents them from rebuilding the base after they've effectively won... which they would have to do to capture more humans to build more reapers with in the first place.

[Purge the heathens]

Isn't the whole "indoctrination trap" a false dilemma? Cerberus could just abduct some aliens, leave them at the base for a while and see what happens. If there are indoctrination fields, blow the base up or keep it around for when you have countermeasures, if not, storm in and enjoy. Unless you think they can't afford a few days to observe possible indoctrination effects. They should still be careful - there was some tidbit about Collector tech being designed to be harmful to the user, even the Collectors themselves, though I can't find it right now.

Oh, and a new thought: we still don't know what's all in the inaccessible Citadel core. Maybe the original, primary Reaper production facilities? In that case, destroying the base would do nothing to delay Reaper production.

Modifié par Purge the heathens, 29 septembre 2010 - 07:03 .

[lovgreno]

Purge the heathens wrote...

Isn't the whole "indoctrination trap" a false dilemma? Cerberus could just abduct some aliens, leave them at the base for a while and see what happens. If there are indoctrination fields, blow the base up or keep it around for when you have countermeasures, if not, storm in and enjoy. Unless you think they can't afford a few days to observe possible indoctrination effects. They should still be careful - there was some tidbit about Collector tech being designed to be harmful to the user, even the Collectors themselves, though I can't find it right now.

Oh, and a new thought: we still don't know what's all in the inaccessible Citadel core. Maybe the original, primary Reaper production facilities? In that case, destroying the base would do nothing to delay Reaper production.

And what if the crew or robots that are placing the bombs are destroyed, captured or indoctrinated? Aslo indoctrination fields are not limited to the actual reapers or their equipment, that big base may very weel be powerfull to influence nearby ships as well. Indoctrination has never been discovered untill it was too late and Harbringer is obviously one manipulative and slippery reaper. They love to make traps and are very good at it. The base is a very good bait. Shepards visit only proved that the base is very big, alien and while standing a threat to all living beings, especialy humans.

Interesting theory, but still unproven. Still, perhaps studying the Citadell could come up with some new things possibly as usefull as the base? It certanly seems less risky and research has already started with the scanning of the grasshoppers. This is however no reason to blow up the base as it may contain other usefull information than the Citadell.

For balance reasons my argument could also be turned around to support keeping the base I suppose. After all in Mass Effect there are no wrong or right decisions. This is a brilliant opportunity to study the effects of indoctrination if it is indeed still there. Sure I would prefer if someone who knows what they are doing and have substantial resources did that job considering Cerberus past experiments with reaper tech but still TIMmy and his few remaining redshirts are better than nothing. But hopefully he sees the wisdom in sharing the base with someone strong and influential, like the Alliance and the Citadell races. I would prefer to think TIM can see past his own ambition considering that he is not stupid nor too proud to admit his failiures and weaknesses.

Modifié par lovgreno, 29 septembre 2010 - 07:41 .

[Xilizhra]

Worst case scenario for a Cerberus victory. Human dominance, humanity acting like jackbooted thugs, cult of personality built around TIM as a dictator (I really don't believe the last couple points, but lets just say for argument's sake that this will indeed be the case)

You have an odd definition of "worst." Personally, I think the worst-case scenario for a Cerberus victory is TIM deciding that human dominance is best served by turning the race into a Reaper, and thus switches sides.

[wizardryforever]

mosor wrote...

Worst case scenario for a Cerberus victory. Human dominance, humanity acting like jackbooted thugs, cult of personality built around TIM as a dictator (I really don't believe the last couple points, but lets just say for argument's sake that this will indeed be the case)

Worst case for Reaper victory: Galactic extinction for all advanced sentinet life.

Extinction is many magnitudes worse than what Cerberus can do. So the worst case scenario in option one may be odius, but it's better than being dead.

This isn't quite as clear-cut as you make it sound.  There are many people who would rather die than live like slaves to someone.  Cue Ebeneezer Scrooge line: "Well if they're going to die then they'd better do it!  And decrease the surplus population!"  Also Patrick Henry (I think): "Give me liberty or give me death!"  Granted, slavery and tyranny are something that can be fixed, or abolished, whereas death is final.

[_purifico_]

Kind of on topic question: Where the **** did Ceberus got the reaper tech samples in Retribution if I destroyed the collector base? Or is there a canon now?

[GodWood]

_purifico_ wrote...
Kind of on topic question: Where the **** did Ceberus got the reaper tech samples in Retribution if I destroyed the collector base? Or is there a canon now?

That was other Reaper tech.

[Inverness Moon]

_purifico_ wrote...

Kind of on topic question: Where the **** did Ceberus got the reaper tech samples in Retribution if I destroyed the collector base? Or is there a canon now?

If you destroy the base, there will be enough remains for them to salvage something significant. I'm glad they did too.

We now know how Harbinger and Sovereign assumed direct control.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 29 septembre 2010 - 08:45 .

[mosor]

wizardryforever

This isn't quite as clear-cut as you make it sound.  There are many people who would rather die than live like slaves to someone.  Cue Ebeneezer Scrooge line: "Well if they're going to die then they'd better do it!  And decrease the surplus population!"  Also Patrick Henry (I think): "Give me liberty or give me death!"  Granted, slavery and tyranny are something that can be fixed, or abolished, whereas death is final.

Chosing death over tyrany is only noble if you're making that choice for yourself. Chosing to let others die to save them from tyrany makes you no better than the tyrant you're fighting.

Xilzhra
You have an odd definition of "worst." Personally, I think the
worst-case scenario for a Cerberus victory is TIM deciding that human
dominance is best served by turning the race into a Reaper, and thus
switches sides.

This is nonsense. TIM doesn't need the collector base if that's what he wants to happen. How is being assimilated by the reaper borg in any way serve human dominance?

Modifié par mosor, 29 septembre 2010 - 10:15 .

[Xilizhra]

This is nonsense. TIM doesn't need the collector base if that's what he wants to happen. How is being assimilated by the reaper borg in any way serve human dominance?

Communal godhood. And what I meant is that TIM comes to this realization after studying the Collector base.

The second-worst scenario is that the Council finds out and tries to forcibly capture it, and the Alliance gets involved somehow, leaving a confused mess for the Reapers to smash.

[Dean_the_Young]

Third worse case scenario is that Shepard trips on a Collector pebble and breaks his neck, leaving the galaxy defenseless come the reapers.



We must destroy the Collector Base!

[Spectre_907]

Give the base to a twisted and maniacal chain smoker/alcoholic hell bent on advancing humanity (whatever that means) at any cost or destroy it and have little to no understanding of the origins of your enemy. Either way, the galaxy is screwed.

But seriously: assuming Cerberus has the base, wouldn't using the technology from the base to study Reaper origins mean one would have to resume the Collector experiments on humans? After all, the base's sole purpose was to build the Reaper-human larva. I don't see any other means of research other than what is mentioned. We're no better than the Reapers if this was the case. It is unethical. Unless we somehow used volunteers or engineered non-sapient constructs capable of being experimented on without loss of data I do not see any other means and with the tech in the hands of an organization like Cerberus and their army of "brute force researchers," I seriously doubt they would try anyway.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 29 septembre 2010 - 11:41 .

[Inverness Moon]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is nonsense. TIM doesn't need the collector base if that's what he wants to happen. How is being assimilated by the reaper borg in any way serve human dominance?

Communal godhood. And what I meant is that TIM comes to this realization after studying the Collector base.

TIM isn't any more likely to come to that realization than Shepard is.

Spectre_907 wrote...

But seriously: assuming Cerberus has the base, wouldn't using the technology from the base to study Reaper origins mean one would have to resume the Collector experiments on humans? After all, the base's sole purpose was to build the Reaper-human larva. I don't see any other means of research other than what is mentioned. We're no better than the Reapers if this was the case. It is unethical.

There was no experimentation involved in how they were using humans to build a reaper. Research simply involves discovering how the reaper is constructed and its offensive and defensive technologies. This is all information that would most likely be available in the base's computer system.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 29 septembre 2010 - 11:43 .

[Arijharn]

Guys; when Shephard says "You're completely ruthless, the next thing I know you'll be constructing your own Reaper" he was stating that he thought that TIM is actually ruthless, not that TIM is actually committed to building a Reaper. TIM's own response supports this.



I can understand people's unease with the Illusive Man and his goals, but the mere concept of TIM turning traitor and actually building his own Reaper out of captured humans is the most patently ridiculous and baseless assumption I have ever heard with in regards to the ME universe.

[Whatever42]

mosor wrote...

wizardryforever

This isn't quite as clear-cut as you make it sound.  There are many people who would rather die than live like slaves to someone.  Cue Ebeneezer Scrooge line: "Well if they're going to die then they'd better do it!  And decrease the surplus population!"  Also Patrick Henry (I think): "Give me liberty or give me death!"  Granted, slavery and tyranny are something that can be fixed, or abolished, whereas death is final.

Chosing death over tyrany is only noble if you're making that choice for yourself. Chosing to let others die to save them from tyrany makes you no better than the tyrant you're fighting.

So when the Continental Congress made the decision for war for all Americans, they were being tyrants? When the allies drafted soldiers to sent into war, they were tyrants? I can appreciate that point of view. It goes to show you that paragon certainly isn't pacifist.

[Spectre_907]

GodWood wrote...

_purifico_ wrote...
Kind of on topic question: Where the **** did Ceberus got the reaper tech samples in Retribution if I destroyed the collector base? Or is there a canon now?

That was other Reaper tech.

"Cerberus had salvaged key pieces of technology from the remains of the Collector operation." Retribution, p. 11

Given that Harbinger centralised the operation, I believe they got the tech from the base. Either from remains or the intact base.

[Spectre_907]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

But seriously: assuming Cerberus has the base, wouldn't using the technology from the base to study Reaper origins mean one would have to resume the Collector experiments on humans? After all, the base's sole purpose was to build the Reaper-human larva. I don't see any other means of research other than what is mentioned. We're no better than the Reapers if this was the case. It is unethical.

There was no experimentation involved in how they were using humans to build a reaper. Research simply involves discovering how the reaper is constructed and its offensive and defensive technologies. This is all information that would most likely be available in the base's computer system.

I initially thought it would be possible by just looking at any data logs. If it could be done without having to do live subject testing, I seriously doubt Cerberus, with it's army of "brute-force researchers," would try.