2146 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Spectre_907 wrote...

Give the base to a twisted and maniacal chain smoker/alcoholic hell bent on advancing humanity (whatever that means) at any cost or destroy it and have little to no understanding of the origins of your enemy. Either way, the galaxy is screwed.

What indication of manic tendencies have you observed in TIM?  Or chain smoking for that matter (not once have I seen him light a cigarette with his last cigarette)?  I will give you alcoholism though as he strikes me as the type.  Do agree though that it seems like somewhat of a damned if you do, damned if you don't choice.

Spectre_907 wrote...
But seriously: assuming Cerberus has the base, wouldn't using the technology from the base to study Reaper origins mean one would have to resume the Collector experiments on humans? After all, the base's sole purpose was to build the Reaper-human larva. I don't see any other means of research other than what is mentioned.

 
Think of it like this, if you have a car, and want to learn how it's built, does that mean you have to build a new car?  Obviously the answer is no, we have a partially constructed Reaper to study and the instructions for the rest of the construction may (I fully acknowledge it might not) be recoverable.  With all that we have enough information to get a general idea on how Reapers are built which gives us a better understanding of where their structural weaknesses may be.

[ChickenDownUnder]

All my Shepards blow it up. It just didn't seem worth keeping around.

By keeping it, you'd have to worry about the ship not actually being fully dead, indoctrination, program viruses, it relaying info back to the other Reapers about ship locations and so on. Then there's how ME1 drilled into everybody's heads that Reaper technology was left around and meant to be picked up by other races, to guide them onto a path the Reaper's want.

Mordin's comments about Reaper tech in Protheons just added to the notion that trying to mess with it was a bad idea.

It also just seems really dumb to me to try to use and understand an alien technology in a limited amount of time against the same race that has been using it for who knows how long, when you could just improve upon the tech you have already.  If you get all the ship upgrades, you've already got the shields and guns that can do damage.

All you'd have to do is to share those shield and gun schematics to as many other anti-Reaper ships as possible. With possibly sicc'ing Mordin on upgrading armor to defend against Collector bugs better. Though biotic shield generators would work too.

[Spectre_907]

DPSSOC wrote...
What indication of manic tendencies have you observed in TIM?  Or chain smoking for that matter (not once have I seen him light a cigarette with his last cigarette)?

Exaggeration.

DPSSOC wrote...
Think of it like this, if you have a car, and want to learn how it's built, does that mean you have to build a new car?  Obviously the answer is no, we have a partially constructed Reaper to study and the instructions for the rest of the construction may (I fully acknowledge it might not) be recoverable.  With all that we have enough information to get a general idea on how Reapers are built which gives us a better understanding of where their structural weaknesses may be.

To only understand what a reaper is, no. I agree. I was thinking along the line of putting the knowledge into practice. Like constructing some kind of weapon that exploits any weakness. Poor word use. If there is a means to do this without doing live subject testing or resuming the Collector experiments, I seriously doubt Cerberus would try to find such a method. Not to mention the Illusive Man wishes to do more than simply use it to help fight the Reapers. But I think with completing the LotSB mission, we could just simply steal the base from Cerberus or blackmail the Illusive Man.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 30 septembre 2010 - 01:09 .

[cos1ne]

I always destroy the base because I don't trust TIM, TIM is the one who sent me into a reaper trap, because he "figured I'd get out of it".



When TIM says that this "nuclear pulse" thing will destroy all the collectors but keep the technology, I don't believe him because he's lied to me before. If just one collector survives it could potentially undue the entire point of the suicide mission.



Since we don't know what Collectors can survive or how many are on the ship or if there are any protected areas, I can't trust a radiation pulse to preserve the base for Humanity. Therefore I'm using a known quantity, the base will not fall into the wrong hands if I blow it up. Anything else in my opinion is just too risky.

[Dean_the_Young]

You don't trust EDI?



TIM only knows the option due to her, after all.

[Nightwriter]

I trust EDI's intent. However, this does not mean it will work perfectly - I'm sure EDI didn't intend to get infected with a Reaper virus, yet it happened. With this decision pretty much nothing is certain. The pulse may work, it may not. The Illusive Man may do something catastrophic with the base, he may not. You're taking a chance no matter what you decide.

[Nightwriter]

No idea what paragon justifications you're talking about.



Can't be, "I don't trust you! Base go boom!" If you think that's convoluted I don't know what hope is left with these discussions.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I think EDI had those blocks for a reason and she could be a liablity later on. Also the Illusive Man built her so he could have a contingency to control her for whatever reason.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

No idea what paragon justifications you're talking about.

You must be knew to this debate.

I'm knew to a lot of things I thought I knew. I'm knew to saying knew instead of new. That's knew.

Honestly, I don't see how either side of the argument is terribly convoluted.

Paragon side: It's too risky giving it to TIM.
Renegade side: Survival is worth the risk.

[Arijharn]

For some reason I keep on thinking of the CB dilemma in terms of Star Wars :S



"But Master Yoda always said I should be mindful of the future!"

"Yes, but not at the expense of the present."

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

A realized my mistake a few moments ago but "new" I was too late to correct it.

I can feel your pain more than you think. My login problems make me unable to edit my posts most of the time.

Shandepared wrote...

Let me break it down for you, the debate that is.

Renegade: we need to understand our enemy, we need better technology.

Paragon: if we keep the base TIM will start a war by doing.... (insert rambling about power balances and Cerberus being terrorists)

Paragon: if we keep the base it will indoctrinate everyone... (insert rambling about the Reapers infiltrating Cerberus and using them to infiltrate the rest of the galaxy)

Paragon: if we keep the base and use the tech the Reapers will be immune to the tech... (insert rambling about the Reapers shutting down or weapons or some such stupidity)

Firstly, both sides ramble, and it's a little silly to say they don't. There are ramblings and convoluted explanations all around.

Secondly, your three little paragraphs can all pretty much be condensed into "it's too risky". Just drawn out ways of saying the same thing. You could draw out renegade arguments much the same way.

Thirdly, in real life, I'd keep the base in a heartbeat. The only difference between you and me is the extent of our roleplaying.

[Commander Kurt]

It is interesting how, in a way, the CB dilemma turns the tables on paragon/renegade.

For instance, compare it to the Rachni dilemma in ME1. Should I take the risk and hope to gain something from saving the queen, or am I better safe than sorry? Same with the Geth heretics. Same with every villain you have the possibility to spare.

Risking it and having faith in "people" is always paragon, except for the CB. And I do get the difference presented in-game, but extreme risk taking is still a very strong personality trait.

Modifié par Commander Kurt, 30 septembre 2010 - 06:22 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

No, the renegade side never rambles. They have no need to. Their argument is a simple one.

Delusions of grandeur and ego-stroking, mixed with a massive gluttonous superiority complex feeding upon arrogance and a narcissism so intense it is a most amusing joke that it should claim to see itself objectively.

You're such a card, you.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 30 septembre 2010 - 06:24 .

[Nightwriter]

Commander Kurt wrote...

It is interesting how, in a way, the CB dilemma turns the tables on paragon/renegade.

For instance, compare it to the Rachni dilemma in ME1. Should I take the risk and hope to gain something from saving the queen, or am I better safe than sorry? Same with the Geth heretics. Same with every villain you have the possibility to spare.

Risking it and having faith in "people" is always paragon, except for the CB. And I do get the difference presented in-game, but extreme risk taking is still a very strong personality trait.

This is a most interesting perspective. You're right.

I guess I'd think they're still similar in that both renegade decisions (for the rachni and the Collector base) are made with absolute survival in mind, and both paragon decisions require you to disregard the threat to survival at least a little.

[lovgreno]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

No, the renegade side never rambles. They have no need to. Their argument is a simple one.

Delusions of grandeur and ego-stroking, mixed with a massive gluttonous superiority complex feeding upon arrogance and a narcissism so intense it is a most amusing joke that it should claim to see itself objectively.

You're such a card, you.

So the renegade is always right then? Never any personal opinions clouding their arguments? They always have the undeniably true source of information?

Anyway the game doesn't work in the terms of rigth and wrong. Both options are a wild chance that Shepards choices will do more good than harm in the unknown future. The same goes for all other choices in the game by the way. Shepard is not a oracle and neither are we.

Especialy funny as it is just a game where we don't have to take any real consequences and therefore proves nothing about how brave, smart, realistic and superiour you are in real life.

Modifié par lovgreno, 30 septembre 2010 - 06:55 .

[PD ORTA]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

All my Shepards blow it up. It just didn't seem worth keeping around.

Then there's how ME1 drilled into everybody's heads that Reaper technology was left around and meant to be picked up by other races, to guide them onto a path the Reaper's want.

I've heard this before, but I don't think the collector base fits this arguement. While the Citidel and Mass relays were placed in open space (easy to get to), the collector base was place in a very inhospitable environment, that can only be reached safely via the reaper IFF. As such I don't think the collector base falling into human hands was part of the reapers plan. 

[Nightwriter]

I'm not so sure, Shand.

Both renegade decisions are made to protect the galaxy.
Both decisions deal with an unknown (the rachni's true intentions; what TIM will do with the base).
Both paragon decisions put morality first.

[lovgreno]

Shandepared wrote...
With the Collector base we have a known quanity. The resources and knowledge of our enemy lay before us.

The only known quantity of the base is that it is a very big threat to everything as long as it stands. Usefull technology and information, possibly but far from sure. Is it worth that risk? Impossible to say and therefore you can easily come up with good reasons both for keeping and destroying the base.

[lovgreno]

Shandepared wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

The only known quantity of the base is that it is a very big threat to everything as long as it stands.

How so?

1. Shepard saw just a fraction of the base and that proved to be a extremely hostile place, even the considerable skill of team Shepard barely made it.
2. It was built by or under the orders of the reapers who always trap their bases more cunningly than anyone could detect. Thus far this has not lead to any major loss due to mostly luck. To assume that such luck would last would be unwise.
3. It was harvesting humans and could be used for that again. Probably not by Cerberus I admit, at least if they are not indoctrinated (always a risk when dealing with bigger pieces of unknown reaper materials) but it can be retaken by reapers, possibly with the help of more collectors. The reapers are sneaky like that you know, they love using a tasty bit of cheese like the base, citadell and mass relays in their mousetraps.
4. TIM, EDI and everyone else knew basicaly nothing about the base, that is why they called it a suicide mission. They were throwing themselves into the unknown in a desperate hope that they could remove the serious threat to everyone that is the collectors. To claim that knowing that the pulse from the reactor, alien to everyone, would make the huge unexplored base totaly safe with no lingering threats is impossible.
5. Speculations, hopes and wisfull thinking about the base: Usefull information and technology. How to cleanse it with a radiation pulse. How to keep it safe after that.
6. Known dangers: Reapers, collectors and the intent and long progressed plans and equipment to harvest the whole humanity.

I must admit though as the base is such a unknown quantity my arguments could of course be turned into arguments to keep it. But I have no intention or need to be absolutely right about this since there are no right or wrong choices in Mass Effect.

Modifié par lovgreno, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:27 .