2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

smudboy wrote...

I recall TIM lying to Shepard about the Turians sending a distress call.
I do not recall him wanting to oppress all non-humans.
I do not recall him testing biological weapons on captives, kidnapping or torturing children, or assassinating the pope.

your memory is selective...

- Liara works for the SB, she can't be trusted...lie#2
- We could have secured human *DOMINANCE* against the Reapers and beyond
- TIM = cerberus (he's a control freak)

[mosor]

Jynthor wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Because he lied to Shepard more than once?

Necessary risk, like he told Shepard a million times over.

Becuase he wants to oppress all non-humans in the galaxy?

Maybe aliens shouldn't be such dicks.

Because he tests biological weapons on captives, kidnaps/tortures children, assassinated the pope...
He pulls the plug when things go too far, case in point: Subject Zero.

TIM is still my boy.

TIM isn't racist.  He likes sleeping with asari matriachs after all. Hopefully, in a cerberus dominated galaxy, asari will still have a place as entertainers, strippers, and comfort women.

[smudboy]

Barquiel wrote...

your memory is selective...

- Liara works for the SB, she can't be trusted...lie#2

Your understanding of what a lie is is comical.

- We could have secured human *DOMINANCE* against the Reapers and beyond

Point?

- TIM = cerberus (he's a control freak)

He's the head of an organization.  I fail to see how the person in charge is a bad thing.

I sure hope the Reapers don't lie to us or try to dominate the galaxy.

Oh.

[Barquiel]

- so, what is it in your opinion?
- ?
- He's the head of an organization that tortures children, tested biological weapons on capitves, assassinated the pope,...

[smudboy]

Barquiel wrote...

- so, what is it in your opinion?
- ?
- He's the head of an organization that tortures children, tested biological weapons on capitves, assassinated the pope,...

If someone says something which is false, that person is either lying, or they simply didn't know.  Feron was also working with Liara, and he was playing both sides.  From TIM's standpoint, it's a fair assessment.

Human dominance?  A terrorist organization?  Well, there's nothing wrong with thinking big.  Go go magic number 150!

He does not torture children.  He does not test biological weapons on captives, and he has not assassinated the pope.

[mosor]

Barquiel wrote...

- so, what is it in your opinion?
- ?
- He's the head of an organization that tortures children, tested biological weapons on capitves, assassinated the pope,...

Yes, but how many children did he save from pederasty by killing the Pope? As with all cerberus actions, it's about doing short term evil for long term good!

[Inverness Moon]

Does anyone here think Cerberus could be vindicated in or after ME3 due to what they've done for the fight against the reapers? Bringing Shepard back from the dead and giving him the tools necessary to prevent galactic extinction would be very good for PR.

[Barquiel]

mosor wrote...

Yes but how many children did he save from pederasty by killing the Pope? As with all cerberus actions, it's about doing short term evil for long term good!

ok, you have a point there

But long term good...no!

[Spectre_907]

smudboy wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Honestly, there is just as much speculation and wishful thinking involved in either decision.  Paragons may not know that the base is a Reaper trap, or that the Illusive Man will use it poorly.  But Renegades also don't know that there will be anything useful on the base, or that the Illusive Man can actually be trusted.  It basically all comes down to how optimistic you are about our chances, and how much you think Cerberus can actually do.  Like pretty much any decision in the game, it's about taking risks, and you do that whether you keep the base or destroy it.

Exactly. And there is no way of knowing what was the right choice untill ME 3 ends.

Smudboy, think outside your box.

Which box?  Your reasoning is flawed.

1) There is no speculation.  The base builds Reapers.  It must have information AND technology to do so.  Nevermind other information which would be pertinent to our goal.
2) I don't give two sh*ts about TIMs motives, personality, hairstyle, smirks, or who he's banging on weekends.
3) It's evidence.
4) It brings closure to those who died there.

Those are facts.  Well, aside from 2).

1) We do not know of any other information in the base specific to the Reapers aside from the fact that the base is designed to build one. We don't know what defenses or weapons the base has aside from Oculus fighters and Collector cruisers and we only know how many from what we saw in the cutscenes. We do not even know if they could be effective against Reapers. That is speculative.

2) What is your point?

3) Chorban (if you helped him) studied the Keepers and deduced that they were created using similar technology from that of Sovereign and that it was far older than the geth. He was able to deduce that there is a signal sent every 50000 years and that the last signal sent was during the Prothean Extinction. And what did everyone on the Citadel do? Ignore it. What did the Council and the Alliance do when they saw Sovereign right in front of them? Ignore it. These two pieces of evidence in conjunction with Shepard's account of Vigil's conversation (alteration of the Keeper signals thus forcing Sovereign to recruit Saren) are equally as strong as the Collector base to prove the Reapers are real. But this is dismissed as myth based on a campaign of propaganda and cover-ups. So even if we had another Reaper and a base to build one, it will be ignored and dismissed as a Collector construct. Not to mention that it is in the hands of Cerberus which is one of the Council's and Alliance's enemies. Accepting help from Cerberus would be seen as treasonous to allies.

4) All colonists were killed on the base according to Chakwas. Half of Horizon's colonists were saved from the Collector attack so there are eyewitness accounts. We also have video logs of other colony attacks, other readings of the Collectors from Veetor's data, samples studied from Mordin, and the location of the base and a means to get there. These are sufficient. The base itself just explains the why and how.

The only decent argument is that we have something to study that could lead us to better defenses against the Reapers but it is both at the cost of giving it to a radical human supremacist group with ulterior motives and a paragon may see the experiments and use of the tech as unethical.

[Pineappletree]

smudboy wrote...

[...]

He does not torture children.  He does not test biological weapons on captives, and he has not assassinated the pope.

1. In Mass Effect: Acsension Cerberus infiltrates a program that trains biotic children, conducts experiments on them (by administering drugs as far as I recall), tries to kidnapp a particularly gifted, autistic girl and launches an attack on the quarian fleet when she is brought their by her caretakers.

2. From the ShadowBrokers' Intel concerning Cerberus:

"Activity Highlights: 2169 - TRAPDOOR experiments on asari captives with omega-enkaphalin to measure disruption of biotic power. Estimate 2.5 mg active ingredient for each 25 kg of body weight; under 7.5 mg dose optimal to avoid detection by taste or smell; 3-5 Citadel standard days onset period; powers return in 2-5 Cit-stan days after last dose taken; permanent damage possible."

3. Same source:

"Activity Highlights: 2171 - Pope Clement XVI assassinated via rosary beads coated with sodium nonacetate and dimethyl sulfoxide. Death attribtued to age and heart failure. Replacement, Pope Leo XIV, has eschatological beliefs in-line with militarizing humanity; forgiving attitude to salariens re: genophage proves useful for strategic alliances against turians."

4. In Mass Effect: Retribution Cerberus conducts experiments on living human beeings, infusing them with reaper tech. The first "volunteer" is chosen by TIM personaly because that man betrayed Cerberus 3 years earlier. He even travels to the research station and oversees the experiment himself, because he "wanted to watch Grayson  [the man who betrayed him] suffer".

Now, you may see in all this a necessary evil to save humanity / the galaxy or outright condemn it, but there is no denial that the guy DOES those things...

[Spectre_907]

FdL_Ananas wrote...

smudboy wrote...

[...]

He does not torture children.  He does not test biological weapons on captives, and he has not assassinated the pope.

1. In Mass Effect: Acsension Cerberus infiltrates a program that trains biotic children, conducts experiments on them (by administering drugs as far as I recall), tries to kidnapp a particularly gifted, autistic girl and launches an attack on the quarian fleet when she is brought their by her caretakers.

2. From the ShadowBrokers' Intel concerning Cerberus:

"Activity Highlights: 2169 - TRAPDOOR experiments on asari captives with omega-enkaphalin to measure disruption of biotic power. Estimate 2.5 mg active ingredient for each 25 kg of body weight; under 7.5 mg dose optimal to avoid detection by taste or smell; 3-5 Citadel standard days onset period; powers return in 2-5 Cit-stan days after last dose taken; permanent damage possible."

3. Same source:

"Activity Highlights: 2171 - Pope Clement XVI assassinated via rosary beads coated with sodium nonacetate and dimethyl sulfoxide. Death attribtued to age and heart failure. Replacement, Pope Leo XIV, has eschatological beliefs in-line with militarizing humanity; forgiving attitude to salariens re: genophage proves useful for strategic alliances against turians."

4. In Mass Effect: Retribution Cerberus conducts experiments on living human beeings, infusing them with reaper tech. The first "volunteer" is chosen by TIM personaly because that man betrayed Cerberus 3 years earlier. He even travels to the research station and oversees the experiment himself, because he "wanted to watch Grayson  [the man who betrayed him] suffer".

Now, you may see in all this a necessary evil to save humanity / the galaxy or outright condemn it, but there is no denial that the guy DOES those things...

One may argue that he does not directly do these things but the fact that he is ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL over all Cerberus cells makes him responsible. He shows little to no regard for any negative consqeuences or life involved. The only operation he oversees personally is Grayson and he is just as ruthless there as the other projects make him out to be.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:02 .

[smudboy]

Spectre_907 wrote...

1) We do not know of any other information in the base specific to the Reapers aside from the fact that the base is designed to build one. We don't know what defenses or weapons the base has aside from Oculus fighters and Collector cruisers and we only know how many from what we saw in the cutscenes. We do not even know if they could be effective against Reapers. That is speculative.

What is speculative?

The base builds Reapers. It has the facilities to do so.  This is extremely relevant to our goals.

2) What is your point?

Personality, character, intentions and opinions of TIM are all irrelevant.

3) Chorban (if you helped him) studied the Keepers and deduced that they were created using similar technology from that of Sovereign and that it was far older than the geth. He was able to deduce that there is a signal sent every 50000 years and that the last signal sent was during the Prothean Extinction. And what did everyone on the Citadel do? Ignore it. What did the Council and the Alliance do when they saw Sovereign right in front of them? Ignore it. These two pieces of evidence in conjunction with Shepard's account of Vigil's conversation (alteration of the Keeper signals thus forcing Sovereign to recruit Saren) are equally as strong as the Collector base to prove the Reapers are real. But this is dismissed as myth based on a campaign of propaganda and cover-ups. So even if we had another Reaper and a base to build one, it will be ignored and dismissed as a Collector construct. Not to mention that it is in the hands of Cerberus which is one of the Council's and Alliance's enemies. Accepting help from Cerberus would be seen as treasonous to allies.

A base, in the middle of the galactic core, that builds Reapers, of technology that is also 50k year old, is better evidence than all that combined.  You kidnap a goddamned councilor and throw them on the base, and they'll start thinking differently.  It's like explaining the existence of cupcakes, and you show them the cupcake factory.

If they can't believe anything beyond that, there is a serious flaw in the writing department.

4) All colonists were killed on the base according to Chakwas. Half of Horizon's colonists were saved from the Collector attack so there are eyewitness accounts. We also have video logs of other colony attacks, other readings of the Collectors from Veetor's data, samples studied from Mordin, and the location of the base and a means to get there. These are sufficient. The base itself just explains the why and how.

We're talking about hundreds of thousands of people who lost hundreds of thousands of their family and friends.  They'll want to know everything.

The only decent argument is that we have something to study that could lead us to better defenses against the Reapers but it is both at the cost of giving it to a radical human supremacist group with ulterior motives and a paragon may see the experiments and use of the tech as unethical.

There is going to be something to study there, even if it doesn't amount to a technological application.  Intel on anything is going to be abundant, which will prove useful.  It doesn't matter if it's defense, offense, or just intel: it'll be better than nothing.

It doesn't matter if we hand the base over to another Reaper that turned Shepard into Cyber Jesus: they're on our side.  They want to fight the Reapers.  No galaxy is better than a fanciful belief in a 150 person human supremacist one.

[smudboy]

FdL_Ananas wrote...

1. In Mass Effect: Acsension Cerberus infiltrates a program that trains biotic children, conducts experiments on them (by administering drugs as far as I recall), tries to kidnapp a particularly gifted, autistic girl and launches an attack on the quarian fleet when she is brought their by her caretakers.

Irrelevant to the game.

2. From the ShadowBrokers' Intel concerning Cerberus:

"Activity Highlights: 2169 - TRAPDOOR experiments on asari captives with omega-enkaphalin to measure disruption of biotic power. Estimate 2.5 mg active ingredient for each 25 kg of body weight; under 7.5 mg dose optimal to avoid detection by taste or smell; 3-5 Citadel standard days onset period; powers return in 2-5 Cit-stan days after last dose taken; permanent damage possible."

So?

3. Same source:

"Activity Highlights: 2171 - Pope Clement XVI assassinated via rosary beads coated with sodium nonacetate and dimethyl sulfoxide. Death attribtued to age and heart failure. Replacement, Pope Leo XIV, has eschatological beliefs in-line with militarizing humanity; forgiving attitude to salariens re: genophage proves useful for strategic alliances against turians."

Thank you.

4. In Mass Effect: Retribution Cerberus conducts experiments on living human beeings, infusing them with reaper tech. The first "volunteer" is chosen by TIM personaly because that man betrayed Cerberus 3 years earlier. He even travels to the research station and oversees the experiment himself, because he "wanted to watch Grayson  [the man who betrayed him] suffer".

Not part of the game.

Now, you may see in all this a necessary evil to save humanity / the galaxy or outright condemn it, but there is no denial that the guy DOES those things...

It was made clear that TIM was not aware of the events on Pragia or Project Overlord.  Although it's very clear that TIM and Cerberus do things to get results.  Until I see a clear reference to TIM being actually morally gray or evil, I see nothing that will determine his abuse of the base.  There is evidence to show that the people under him will abuse the base, however.

[Phaedon]

smudboy wrote...

FdL_Ananas wrote...

1. In Mass Effect: Acsension Cerberus infiltrates a program that trains biotic children, conducts experiments on them (by administering drugs as far as I recall), tries to kidnapp a particularly gifted, autistic girl and launches an attack on the quarian fleet when she is brought their by her caretakers.

Irrelevant to the game.
Irrelevant to the game it might be, but it doesn't make TIM a saint ,actually, it makes him a terrorist that only cares for his cause. What if we have lost all our humanity till then ? 

2. From the ShadowBrokers' Intel concerning Cerberus:

"Activity Highlights: 2169 - TRAPDOOR experiments on asari captives with omega-enkaphalin to measure disruption of biotic power. Estimate 2.5 mg active ingredient for each 25 kg of body weight; under 7.5 mg dose optimal to avoid detection by taste or smell; 3-5 Citadel standard days onset period; powers return in 2-5 Cit-stan days after last dose taken; permanent damage possible."

So?
His 'scientists' remind me of some very interesting experiments done around 1940-1945. That's all. 

3. Same source:

"Activity Highlights: 2171 - Pope Clement XVI assassinated via rosary beads coated with sodium nonacetate and dimethyl sulfoxide. Death attribtued to age and heart failure. Replacement, Pope Leo XIV, has eschatological beliefs in-line with militarizing humanity; forgiving attitude to salariens re: genophage proves useful for strategic alliances against turians."

Thank you.
Yeah, let's kill people ! We will save humanity because our opinion is da best !

4. In Mass Effect: Retribution Cerberus conducts experiments on living human beeings, infusing them with reaper tech. The first "volunteer" is chosen by TIM personaly because that man betrayed Cerberus 3 years earlier. He even travels to the research station and oversees the experiment himself, because he "wanted to watch Grayson  [the man who betrayed him] suffer".

Not part of the game.
Still TIM.

Now, you may see in all this a necessary evil to save humanity / the galaxy or outright condemn it, but there is no denial that the guy DOES those things...

It was made clear that TIM was not aware of the events on Pragia or Project Overlord.  Although it's very clear that TIM and Cerberus do things to get results.  Until I see a clear reference to TIM being actually morally gray or evil, I see nothing that will determine his abuse of the base.  There is evidence to show that the people under him will abuse the base, however.

You'd think that when a project/base goes silent for a bit, he should worry about it, since you know, there are only a few cells in Cerberus... Do you really think that he doesn't know anything at all ? 

Replies in red.

[smudboy]

Phaedon wrote...

Irrelevant is irrelevant.

His 'scientists' remind me of some very interesting experiments done around 1940-1945. That's all. 

Such as?  I don't see anyone dying or being injured in this passage.

Yeah, let's kill people ! We will save humanity because our opinion is da best !

Nowhere in that passage was TIM involved, nor do we know why the pope died.  It is merely implied that Cerberus killed a pope.

Still TIM.

Not part of game = irrelevant.

You'd think that when a project/base goes silent for a bit, he should worry about it, since you know, there are only a few cells in Cerberus... Do you really think that he doesn't know anything at all ? 

If TIM doesn't know, he doesn't know.  As such, TIM does not condone unethical actions.

Continued from the point of before, the opinion, ideas, intentions of TIM are irrelevant.

Modifié par smudboy, 30 septembre 2010 - 07:52 .

[Ieldra]

smudboy, you're making no sense, and you know it.

[smudboy]

Ieldra2 wrote...

smudboy, you're making no sense, and you know it.

Where?

[Ieldra]

smudboy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
smudboy, you're making no sense, and you know it.

Where?

I agree with your stance on keeping the base, but your attempts to whitewash TIM are nonsense.

[smudboy]

Ieldra2 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
smudboy, you're making no sense, and you know it.

Where?

I agree with your stance on keeping the base, but your attempts to whitewash TIM are nonsense.

Where?

[Phaedon]

Irrelevant is irrelevant.

How is that irrelevant ? We are talking about TIM and his personality. It's quite relevant.

His 'scientists' remind me of some very interesting experiments done around 1940-1945. That's all. 

Such as?  I don't see anyone dying or being injured in this passage.

You know which experiments I am talking about, the ones that the dead are the lucky and the details of which should not be shared in a social network.

Yeah, let's kill people ! We will save humanity because our opinion is da best !

Nowhere in that passage was TIM involved, nor do we know why the pope died.  It is merely implied that Cerberus killed a pope.

Exactly.

Still TIM.

Not part of game = irrelevant.

Again, I don't see why you think that it's irrelevant.

You'd think that when a project/base goes silent for a bit, he should worry about it, since you know, there are only a few cells in Cerberus... Do you really think that he doesn't know anything at all ? 

If TIM doesn't know, he doesn't know.  As such, TIM does not condone unethical actions.

Continued from the point of before, the opinion, ideas, intentions of TIM are irrelevant.

He wants Shepard to think that he doesn't know. After all, I am sure you have played the Cerberus sidemissions in ME1. And don't tell me that they were ethical.

Modifié par Phaedon, 30 septembre 2010 - 08:11 .

[Spectre_907]

smudboy wrote...
What is speculative?

The base builds Reapers. It has the facilities to do so.  This is extremely relevant to our goals.

You claimed "other information and technology" and tech that will help us. All we know is that there is a base to build reapers. Agreed this could be useful but claiming it will be useful is speculative.

Personality, character, intentions and opinions of TIM are all irrelevant.

Not sufficient to argue for saving the base.

A base, in the middle of the galactic core, that builds Reapers, of technology that is also 50k year old, is better evidence than all that combined.  You kidnap a goddamned councilor and throw them on the base, and they'll start thinking differently.  It's like explaining the existence of cupcakes, and you show them the cupcake factory.

So we have a factory to build a giant robot made of human goo with tech that is 50000 years old. Great! Now where's the data pointing to the other robots made of organic goo out there in dark space? Where's the data saying that the Sovereign was also made of organic goo? Where's the data explaining the intentions of the human goo robot in relation to the other organic goo robots in dark space?

There isn't any. All we know is that there exists a base that builds cybernetic organisms by incorporating an organic's genetic code into their construction.

Useless for claiming that the base can be used as evidence. But I will agree that kidnaping councilors could get things done...

We're talking about hundreds of thousands of people who lost hundreds of thousands of their family and friends.  They'll want to know everything.

And? Number of colonists is irrelevant. We still have enough to explain if the base is destroyed. Have a third party leak the information I mentioned into the extranet and deliver it to the families and friends. All that is really missing is the actual thing handling the bodies in some way that can easily be explained without the base.

There is going to be something to study there, even if it doesn't amount to a technological application.  Intel on anything is going to be abundant, which will prove useful.  It doesn't matter if it's defense, offense, or just intel: it'll be better than nothing.

Agreed and I point out that the first claim is a good one. But again there could be something that leads to defeating the Reapers. Harbinger could have easily erased data on anything useful or one of a hundred other explanations. The point is there is nothing we know yet.

It doesn't matter if we hand the base over to another Reaper that turned Shepard into Cyber Jesus: they're on our side.  They want to fight the Reapers.  No galaxy is better than a fanciful belief in a 150 person human supremacist one.

Agreed that they are the only one's willing to fight the reapers and we should choose them over nothing. But they want to fight the reapers because they're own agenda is threatened. Not to save the galaxy. They only turn Shepard into Cyber Jesus in order to utilize his/her experience against the reapers to save humans. I seriously doubt Cerberus would have done anything if an alien race was being abducted by the Collectors. If anything, they would have tried to aid in reducing their populations or augment any debilitating experiments while simultaneously looking to save their own hides.

So again, information is the only good argument for preserving the base yet you are giving it to a anti-alien group with an agenda.

[smudboy]

Phaedon wrote...

How is that irrelevant ? We are talking about TIM and his personality. It's quite relevant.

It's not in the game.  Therefore irrelevant.

TIM's personality is completely irrelevant.  This is not an electoral race.  He wants to stop the Reapers, and he's going to do that with the base.

You know which experiments I am talking about, the ones that the dead are the lucky and the details of which should not be shared in a social network.

You just comapred Cerberus to ****'s, wonderful.

Oh wait that passage didn't involve killing anyone.  So no I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Exactly.

Right.  This is about TIM, apparently.  Or not TIM, just Cerberus.  Something.

Again, I don't see why you think that it's irrelevant.

Because it's not part of the game!

We need to argue from the FACTS found in the GAME, not supplemental material.

He wants Shepard to think that he doesn't know. After all, I am sure you have played the Cerberus sidemissions in ME1. And don't tell me that they were ethical.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.  Yet the fact is TIM didn't know about Pragia, and didn't know about Project Overlord.

Yes, in ME1 it appeared Cerberus was nothing but pure evil.  Yet, in ME2, all that gets lampshaded by Miranda.