2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. Yet the fact is TIM didn't know about Pragia, and didn't know about Project Overlord.

Assuming you believe him and the cheerleader.

[tommyt_1994]

So after reading a portion of this thread, I believe I have been converted to the side of us that keeps the base. Mainly for previous posts and points made earlier in this thread, I found myself always siding with the person who was arguing for keeping the base despite the Paragade alignment my Canon Shep has.

This all of course coming from someone who pretty much hates Cerberus. But like the plot of ME2, Cerberus is a necessary evil. TIM has proven that he will do whatever he can to beat the reapers. People who claim that he can't be trusted with the base and that he'll do evil are denying this fact. TIM has proven that he will do what he can to stop the reapers. But post-Reaper war? Sure he'll go all evil genius on us. But after seeing all that Shep can do, do you really think that he/she couldn't take down Cerberus? I think he/she definitely could, and probably will need to once the reapers are out of the way.

And for people who say that "Humanity will dominate the galaxy and I don't want a single dominant species", who says that Shep couldn't go around to the Council/Alliance/Asari government/Turian government/etc. and give them a copy of the reaper IFF so that they could study the base as well? While it may not seem like it, I'm in that same boat as well when it comes to working with the other races. It would be a necessary olive branch for uniting the galaxy against the reapers.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 30 septembre 2010 - 08:36 .

[Barquiel]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

And for people who say that "Humanity will dominate the galaxy and I don't want a single dominant species", who says that Shep couldn't go around to the Council/Alliance/Asari government/Turian government/etc. and give them a copy of the reaper IFF so that they could study the base as well? While it may not seem like it, I'm in that same boat as well when it comes to working with the other races. It would be a necessary olive branch for uniting the galaxy against the reapers.

I would gladly keep the base if that would be possible. But the game doesn't give me the option.

[smudboy]

Spectre_907 wrote...
You claimed "other information and technology" and tech that will help us. All we know is that there is a base to build reapers. Agreed this could be useful but claiming it will be useful is speculative.

If you know how to make something, you know how to destroy something.

The base builds Reapers.

We want to destroy Reapers.

The base is giving you a guided tour of how to do that.

True, it might not be useful.  But you know what?  My guess?  I have this really, really good guess that the base builds Reapers.  Which will teach us how to build Reapers.  In doing so, how to destroy Reapers.  Cause, you know, that's what the base actually does.

Not sufficient to argue for saving the base.

If a persons argument is to blow up the base because "WAH TIM", then yes, that would be relevant.

So we have a factory to build a giant robot made of human goo with tech that is 50000 years old. Great! Now where's the data pointing to the other robots made of organic goo out there in dark space? Where's the data saying that the Sovereign was also made of organic goo? Where's the data explaining the intentions of the human goo robot in relation to the other organic goo robots in dark space?

How did EDI know it was a base that makes Reapers, and that the Human Reaper was a Reaper?  Scans from Sovereign in comparison, and the Derelict Reaper, I'd imagine.  Sovereign data is evidence the Council already has.

There isn't any. All we know is that there exists a base that builds cybernetic organisms by incorporating an organic's genetic code into their construction.

Yes, and through a basic thing called comparison, we can take two things -- data from Sovereign, and data from the base -- and see what things are just like the other.

Useless for claiming that the base can be used as evidence. But I will agree that kidnaping councilors could get things done...

I've just shown you how it is not useless.  The other way is mind-raping embracing eternity with that Asari.

And? Number of colonists is irrelevant. We still have enough to explain if the base is destroyed. Have a third party leak the information I mentioned into the extranet and deliver it to the families and friends. All that is really missing is the actual thing handling the bodies in some way that can easily be explained without the base.

The number of colonists is quite relevant.  More human supporters to your cause, urging government control and opinion.  Will of the people and all that.  A dead war hero being yet another war hero, this time, bringing closure to their loved ones.

You cannot explain these things very well if the base is gone.  It's Auschwitz in space.  Yeah, a lot of people will want to know about that.

But we have to blow it up because CERBERUS IS BAD!

Agreed and I point out that the first claim is a good one. But again there could be something that leads to defeating the Reapers. Harbinger could have easily erased data on anything useful or one of a hundred other explanations. The point is there is nothing we know yet.

Good Lord.  There will be data on the Reapers.  You're thinking in terms of computer data, not actual equipment or technology.

Let's say our goal was to build Reapers.  Well, here's a Reaper baby maker.  Would you still blow up the base?

Now let's say our goal is to destroy Reapers.  Well, here's a Reaper baby maker.  Would you still blow up the base?

The reality is still the same: we need data on these things, whether we want to kill or make them.  I am not referring to Harbinger emails or the chemical blueprint for a Reaper eyeball.  I'm talking about a goddamned piece of hardware that's right there that does something that produces something Reaperish.

STUDY IT.

Agreed that they are the only one's willing to fight the reapers and we should choose them over nothing. But they want to fight the reapers because they're own agenda is threatened. Not to save the galaxy. They only turn Shepard into Cyber Jesus in order to utilize his/her experience against the reapers to save humans. I seriously doubt Cerberus would have done anything if an alien race was being abducted by the Collectors. If anything, they would have tried to aid in reducing their populations or augment any debilitating experiments while simultaneously looking to save their own hides.

Saving the galaxy is a good way to promote humanity.

So again, information is the only good argument for preserving the base yet you are giving it to a anti-alien group with an agenda.

Data that's stored in the computers of the base, sure.  Also, data learned from studying the base hardware itself.  Doesn't matter if it's given to a pro-quarian/pro-geth/anti-asari/pro-batarian faction.

Cause the group you're up against?  They're anti-LIFE.

[tommyt_1994]

^ The plot pretty much halts after the SM, we don't know that we won't be able to hand it over to other Governments through DLC or ME3. I am also one of the few players, apparently, who role plays pretty much every decision so your reason isn't as viable for me.

[Phaedon]

Phaedon wrote...

How is that irrelevant ? We are talking about TIM and his personality. It's quite relevant.

[It's not in the game.  Therefore irrelevant.

TIM's personality is completely irrelevant.  This is not an electoral race.  He wants to stop the Reapers, and he's going to do that with the base.

TIM's personality is where the argument 'TIM is a terrorist' argument is based on, so I think that it is relevant. But yeah, let's stop arguing about what is relevant and what is not.

You know which experiments I am talking about, the ones that the dead are the lucky and the details of which should not be shared in a social network.

You just comapred Cerberus to ****'s, wonderful.

I think that Cerberus is a terrorist organization, and that's what I compare terrorists to, I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. 

Oh wait that passage didn't involve killing anyone.  So no I'm not sure what you're talking about.

You either missed my point or didn't read it correctly. 

Exactly.

Right.  This is about TIM, apparently.  Or not TIM, just Cerberus.  Something.

Again, I don't see why you think that it's irrelevant.

Because it's not part of the game!

We need to argue from the FACTS found in the GAME, not supplemental material.

It's cannon, and being supplemental shouldn't matter, since you have been using DLCs to prove your points. But as I have said, this is not the point.

He wants Shepard to think that he doesn't know. After all, I am sure you have played the Cerberus sidemissions in ME1. And don't tell me that they were ethical.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.  Yet the fact is TIM didn't know about Pragia, and didn't know about Project Overlord.

Yes, in ME1 it appeared Cerberus was nothing but pure evil.  Yet, in ME2, all that gets lampshaded by Miranda.

She just provides some arguments in order to convince both herself and Shepard that Cerberus isn't that bad. If she did truly believe it, she wouldn't resign in the end. And considering how ridiculously small Cerberus ends up being, (Ah yes, the future of humanity:lol:), I think that we can assume that TIM was updated about all of the projects. (Hell, he even defends Overlord in a way in his e-mail)

Modifié par Phaedon, 30 septembre 2010 - 08:45 .

[Barquiel]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

^ The plot pretty much halts after the SM, we don't know that we won't be able to hand it over to other Governments through DLC or ME3. I am also one of the few players, apparently, who role plays pretty much every decision so your reason isn't as viable for me.

Well, I would like to role-play the scene as well...but there is no "give the base to the council" option.

It seems to me that BW assumes...
renegade Shep = pro cerberus/obsessed with human dominace...For that reason, I doubt you'll share the IFF.

Modifié par Barquiel, 30 septembre 2010 - 08:44 .

[tommyt_1994]

Barquiel wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

^ The plot pretty much halts after the SM, we don't know that we won't be able to hand it over to other Governments through DLC or ME3. I am also one of the few players, apparently, who role plays pretty much every decision so your reason isn't as viable for me.

Well, I would like to role-play the scene as well...but there is no "give the base to the council" option.

It seems to me that BW assumes...
renegade Shep = pro cerberus/obsessed with human dominace...For that reason, I doubt you'll share the IFF.

Giving the base to Cerberus is never really what the game asks the player though. The game asks, destory or no? What we've seen in game doesn't support the assumption that saving the base is pro-Human/Cerberus and I trust bioware enough to not lop all people who saved the base into that category. That'd be frustrating. Albeit TIM is the one who tells you that you don't have to blow the place, Shepard isn't forced into saying "now humanity can rule, muahahaha". I'd rather not assume that I'll be forced into a pro-cerberus camp down the road because of me choice at the base, especially considering that my Shep does not like Cerberus in the least. 

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 30 septembre 2010 - 09:02 .

[smudboy]

Phaedon wrote...
TIM's personality is where the argument 'TIM is a terrorist' argument is based on, so I think that it is relevant. But yeah, let's stop arguing about what is relevant and what is not.

Good.  The idea of liking/disliking TIM has no basis in this argument.

It's cannon, and being supplemental shouldn't matter, since you have been using DLCs to prove your points. But as I have said, this is not the point.

One cannot expect ones viewer to know of supplemental in order to influence their choice.  Everything the audience needs should be available to them in the story.  I do not go into a movie with a novel or pamphlet: that would be a failure in storytelling, and even if I did read the novels/comics/didn't play the first game, that should not impact the decision making process.  This is the ME2 story, not some other story.

She just provides some arguments in order to convince both herself and Shepard that Cerberus isn't that bad. If she did truly believe it, she wouldn't resign in the end. And considering how ridiculously small Cerberus ends up being, (Ah yes, the future of humanity:lol:), I think that we can assume that TIM was updated about all of the projects. (Hell, he even defends Overlord in a way in his e-mail)

Her opinion on Rachni, husks and creppers have NOTHING TO DO with her opinion on the base.  In fact, her opinion on the base is completely irrelevant, as is every other squadmates opinion, especially considering some flip flop after the fact.

Fact: TIM did not know about what was happening in Pragia, as the game shows us.
Fact: TIM did not know about what was happening in Overlord, as the game shows us.

There is no evidence showing us that TIM is a 1) morally gray, 2) evil character.  I wish there was, because it would define his character more, but there isn't.

Miranda lampshaded Cerberus' ME1 crimes.  "The husks were already dead, the Thorian creepers were mindless, and the rachni were abandoned once we understood their intelligence."  So they experimented on cadavers, mindless creatures, and abandoned their experiments once they realized the rachni were intelligent.  This pretty much clears everything up they did bad in ME1, aside from Akuze: but that's not mentioned because this is the Cerberbus.

[Phaedon]

I gtg now, but I'll return tomorrow to reply to your post.

[Schneidend]

Shandepared wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

But Renegades also don't know that there will be anything useful on the base, or that the Illusive Man can actually be trusted.

If we destroy the base we'll never know if there was anything useful on there. When it comes to the Illusive Man I have zero reason to believe he would betray humanity to the Reapers. You could just as easily say that we can't actually know if Garrus, Anderson, Tali, or Emily Wong can be "trusted".

This is why the decision was easy for my Renegade. He had the same reason for killing the rachni queen. Sure, he could take the chance that there might be some benefit, and reap the reward if his gamble paid off. There's a chance it might end up biting him in the backside, however. So he doesn't take the chance. He blows up the question rather than waiting for the answer to reveal itself. Safer that way.

[vkt62]

I decided to destroy them because of what cerberus did in ME retribution.I would love to keep the base but looking back at all the millions of years where indoctrinated people helped destroy their civilizations makes a good example against it also. This era is an anomaly which exists because of what the protheans did at Ilos and on the citadel. We just made it through ME2 because of pieces (team members to ship to ship parts) gained from research groups from different civilizations though Cerberus's determination can be complemented.

Modifié par vkt62, 30 septembre 2010 - 10:28 .

[vkt62]

Makes sense but I would avoid anything which doesn't involve living systems. The Turians didn't have trouble with the gun because it was a weapon not a software system with a mind of its own. What the ME retribution, overlord pack and indoctrination show us is that if you use such systems without understanding the core phenomenon at work, trouble can follow. But this all depends on how they integrate the CB into ME3.

[vkt62]

I guess it would be like atomic energy. The atom bomb followed by nuclear power.

[mosor]

vkt62 wrote...

I decided to destroy them because of what cerberus did in ME retribution.I would love to keep the base but looking back at all the millions of years where indoctrinated people helped destroy their civilizations makes a good example against it also. This era is an anomaly which exists because of what the protheans did at Ilos and on the citadel. We just made it through ME2 because of pieces (team members to ship to ship parts) gained from research groups from different civilizations though Cerberus's determination can be complemented.

1. When the reapers come, they will indoctinate. It's one of their primary weapons.
2.. Cerberus made the right call in studying reaper indoctrination devices.  If we can figure out how to negate that, we'll be in a stronger position.
3. You're wrong about your last point. You can defeat the collectors without a single upgrade. I'm not going to reject tech upgrades from anyone. Including cerberus.

[Inverness Moon]

Barquiel wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

And for people who say that "Humanity will dominate the galaxy and I don't want a single dominant species", who says that Shep couldn't go around to the Council/Alliance/Asari government/Turian government/etc. and give them a copy of the reaper IFF so that they could study the base as well? While it may not seem like it, I'm in that same boat as well when it comes to working with the other races. It would be a necessary olive branch for uniting the galaxy against the reapers.

I would gladly keep the base if that would be possible. But the game doesn't give me the option.

You don't always get easy choices in life.

[General User]

Our form of life is inherently superior to the Reaper form of life. We’re smart, tough, independent, diverse, and numerous. They’re stagnant, like pond scum, locked into a pattern of dependence there is no way of breaking free from.  Whether humanity (or any other race) is around to see it or not, the Reapers’ extinction/irrelevance is inevitable. 
 
Given a level playing field, we would crush ‘em like an egg, but the playing field isn’t level.
 
So, imo, it boils down to an assessment: Do you believe our innate superiority is sufficient to see us through the current crisis?  If so, blow the base to hell, and use the rubble to rally all who will listen to your flag. If not, keep the base, and use every physical advantage you can muster to beat down the Reaper menace.
 
Paragon that I be, I have faith in the human (also asari, turian, salarian, geth, elcor, batarian, volus, quarian, rachni, etc, etc. ad nausem) race(s). While my faith is not entirely unfounded (p. 9), I acknowledge that faith is, by nature, intangible. If anyone questions it on specific grounds, I will do my best to justify it.
 
As far as ME3 goes, I would like to see some sort of compromise on the matter of the CB. Keeping the CB gives one access to better weapons, blowing the CB allows one to recruit more allies, that sort of thing.

[General User]

Shandepared wrote...

General User wrote...

 Whether humanity (or any other race) is around to see it or not, the Reapers’ extinction/irrelevance is inevitable.

So is ours.
 

Yes and no. Humanity is not what it was a million years ago, humanity a million years from now may not even recognize us as such. Ours is a species characterized by the use of intellect to overcome the natural world while at the same time our spirit strives to find its place within the natural world. We are constantly growing, changing, developing, in wild and unpredictable ways, by both our own and nature’s volition.  
 
The Reapers cannot make the same claim. They decided long ago that they would be the sole masters of nature. In so doing they doomed themselves.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

General User wrote...

Yes and no. Humanity is not what it was a million years ago, humanity a million years from now may not even recognize us as such. Ours is a species characterized by the use of intellect to overcome the natural world while at the same time our spirit strives to find its place within the natural world. We are constantly growing, changing, developing, in wild and unpredictable ways, by both our own and nature’s volition.  
 
The Reapers cannot make the same claim. They decided long ago that they would be the sole masters of nature. In so doing they doomed themselves.

Unless they crush humanity, in which case they've proven their method successful for another cycle. You say, "[o]urs is a species characterized by the use of intellect to overcome the natural world . . .  We are constantly growing, changing, developing, in wild and unpredictable ways, by both our own and nature’s volition." We are constantly changing because we are a young species. Our growth is that of an infant's compared to the reapers. We will not defeat them because we're fresh thinkers. They've had a lot more time to figure out everything than we have. Maybe it's true that every empire falls, but an empire takes out many civilizations in it's wake. Humans need to strive to be successful in overthrowing the Reapers as opposed to being swept away by them.