2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

And here I thought that destroying the C-Base will entail the collapse of the "save zone" beyond the Omega-4 Relay, leaving Shepard with even less physical evidence than in the case of Sovereign's explosion...



Which also makes the paragon option (again) idioically suicidal. How can Shepard be sure that the Normandy will be able to escape in time? But there again, it's a "suicide mission" so Shepard may consider himself and his team expendable, so scratch the "idiotically" part.

[Dean_the_Young]

The base's mass effect field keeps the base together, and possibly keeps the surrounding areas safe. It did not pre-date the existence of a stable area in the first place.



The Normandy has its own mass effect field to protect it from stresses, and the relay is only a short way away.

[Commander Kurt]

DPSSOC wrote...

It's all well and good to say that destroying the base can be used to rally the galaxy but I just can't see how. 

Well, this seems easy enough. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Cerberus has managed to make themselves enemies of everyone. Blowing up the base shows that Shepard is not working for Cerberus, but, rather, is opposing Cerberus dominance. How? By not giving them that technological edge over their enemies.

I don't think they will spring into action because of it, but they will probably prefer fighting with Shepard to fighting with a soon-to-be-dominating-the-galaxy Cerberus.

[Zulu_DFA]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Alliance stood no chance against Sovereign. "Sovereign is too strong!" is all they could say besides wanting to pull back.

Crap, some panicking no-name ensign who wants to save his sorry ass is now the Alliance. And a fleet commander Admiral Hackett with his "Negative, take it out no matter the cost!" cool voice reply is a nobody.

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And here I thought that destroying the C-Base will entail the collapse of the "save zone" beyond the Omega-4 Relay, leaving Shepard with even less physical evidence than in the case of Sovereign's explosion...

Which also makes the paragon option (again) idioically suicidal. How can Shepard be sure that the Normandy will be able to escape in time? But there again, it's a "suicide mission" so Shepard may consider himself and his team expendable, so scratch the "idiotically" part.

If you think the Collector Base will be at all useful as evidence you've gone round the bend, man.

"Councilors! Councilors! I have proof!"

"Where is it?"

"The Terminus Systems!"

"Oh for Christ's sake."

"SEND YOUR FLEET IN!"

Then you try to give them the coordinates anyway and TIM triggers the kill switch he had inserted into your ass.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And here I thought that destroying the C-Base will entail the collapse of the "save zone" beyond the Omega-4 Relay, leaving Shepard with even less physical evidence than in the case of Sovereign's explosion...

Which also makes the paragon option (again) idioically suicidal. How can Shepard be sure that the Normandy will be able to escape in time? But there again, it's a "suicide mission" so Shepard may consider himself and his team expendable, so scratch the "idiotically" part.

If you think the Collector Base will be at all useful as evidence you've gone round the bend, man.

No, I don't. I am happy to give the Base to TIM, because I trust his judgement. And I have no intention to tell a word about it to the Human-led Council, or anybody else, especially since they could purchace most of it from the Shadow Broker if they cared.

But some people seem to argue, that if they blow it up (because they don't trust TIM) they still can use it to gather other factions support.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 octobre 2010 - 11:40 .

[Barquiel]

Nightwriter wrote...

If you think the Collector Base will be at all useful as evidence you've gone round the bend, man.

"Councilors! Councilors! I have proof!"

"Where is it?"

"The Terminus Systems!"

"Oh for Christ's sake."

"SEND YOUR FLEET IN!"

Then you try to give them the coordinates anyway and TIM triggers the kill switch he had inserted into your ass.

They sent ships to Ilos

Ilos = Terminus systems

[Dean_the_Young]

They, er, didn't send ships to Ilos.



Or at least, not when you needed it, and not openly. They sent STG, not a claim-and-hold flotilla.

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

They, er, didn't send ships to Ilos.

Or at least, not when you needed it, and not openly. They sent STG, not a claim-and-hold flotilla.

They examined Vigil, if we believe the asari councilor...but that's all we know for sure. Maybe they found other interesting things.

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

No, I don't. I am happy to give the Base to TIM, because I trust his judgement. And I have no intention to tell a word about it to the Human-led Council, or anybody else, especially since they could purchace most of it from the Shadow Broker if they cared.

But some people seem to argue, that if they blow it up (because they don't trust TIM) they still can use it to gather other factions support.

Well, I can honestly say that was not one of my reasons. That thought never occurred to me.

I can see why working with Cerberus might impede forming alliances with other races, but I don't know of any way to prove to them that I destroyed the base and severed all ties with Cerberus completely. I think having worked with them very closely in the past is almost just as bad as still working with them.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

No, I don't. I am happy to give the Base to TIM, because I trust his judgement. And I have no intention to tell a word about it to the Human-led Council, or anybody else, especially since they could purchace most of it from the Shadow Broker if they cared.

But some people seem to argue, that if they blow it up (because they don't trust TIM) they still can use it to gather other factions support.

Well, I can honestly say that was not one of my reasons. That thought never occurred to me.

I can see why working with Cerberus might impede forming alliances with other races, but I don't know of any way to prove to them that I destroyed the base and severed all ties with Cerberus completely. I think having worked with them very closely in the past is almost just as bad as still working with them.

You see, Shepard is not a great political leader. Forming leagues is not in the N7, or even Spectres' job description. Shepard's job is to remove obstacles and run errands. So I'd better run errands for the guy who admits to care about the Reapers, and do as he says, rather than scamper arround in hopes I have enough paragon points to persuade everyone to go for the blue stupidity instead of red.

[Nightwriter]

If BioWare intends for us to form the Last Alliance of Middle Earth in ME3, so we shall, and our cries of "but Shepard isn't a political leader!" will be rendered quite meaningless.

It will not be the first time an action hero achieved unrealistic feats.

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

They, er, didn't send ships to Ilos.

Or at least, not when you needed it, and not openly. They sent STG, not a claim-and-hold flotilla.

They examined Vigil, if we believe the asari councilor...but that's all we know for sure. Maybe they found other interesting things.

With infiltration unit. Not with a sieze-and-hold fleet. At best it could be considered a secret raid on a deserted planet by a single/few ships.

The two interesting things on Ilos were Vigil and the Conduit. The rest is more Prothean ruins.

[GGRush]

Commander Kurt wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

It's all well and good to say that destroying the base can be used to rally the galaxy but I just can't see how. 

Well, this seems easy enough. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Cerberus has managed to make themselves enemies of everyone. Blowing up the base shows that Shepard is not working for Cerberus, but, rather, is opposing Cerberus dominance. How? By not giving them that technological edge over their enemies.

I don't think they will spring into action because of it, but they will probably prefer fighting with Shepard to fighting with a soon-to-be-dominating-the-galaxy Cerberus.

This is wishful thinking at best.

In order to fight the reapers, we need better technology--with, or without the collector base.

However, the council's rules are stupid. No relay-related research, no AI research, etc etc etc. Cerberus is the only human group ballsy enough to research outside the council's rules. The suicide mission is made possible because of IFF+Omega-4 and EDI, both researches are illegal by council standards.

So, without the base Cerberus will still do researches for Shepard. I don't think blowing up the base will be THAT convincing to other races. Unless the group researching for Shepard is the geth, which is truly perceived to be everyone's enemy.

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

With infiltration unit. Not with a sieze-and-hold fleet. At best it could be considered a secret raid on a deserted planet by a single/few ships.

 

I just think that the council could also examine the collector base if Shep would inform them...terminus systems or not. Some infiltration units (STG, asari commandos) are more than enough. Cerberus will do the same (because they have no fleet).

[Dean_the_Young]

Cerberus also doesn't have the same issue going into the heart of the Terminus systems (Omega) as Citadel races.

[Inverness Moon]

Commander Kurt wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

It's all well and good to say that destroying the base can be used to rally the galaxy but I just can't see how. 

Well, this seems easy enough. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Cerberus has managed to make themselves enemies of everyone. Blowing up the base shows that Shepard is not working for Cerberus, but, rather, is opposing Cerberus dominance. How? By not giving them that technological edge over their enemies.

I don't think they will spring into action because of it, but they will probably prefer fighting with Shepard to fighting with a soon-to-be-dominating-the-galaxy Cerberus.

Saving the galaxy is more important than opposing Cerberus to me. Blowing up the base is the choice of someone who thinks their ego alone, Galactic Unity™, or some other nonsense will crush the reapers. Of course that will happen because this is a game, but not in real life, and I roleplay as if it was real life. No matter how risky it is to give the base to Cerberus, it is even more risky to destroy what could be your only chance at stopping a cycle of extinction that has gone on for tens of millions of years.

My Shepard would also be entirely unsurprised if she were declared a rogue spectre by the Council due to her similarities with Saren. She isn't going to ****** off Cerberus just because she hopes it will get her street cred with everyone else.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 01 octobre 2010 - 01:31 .

[Nightwriter]

Even so. Theoretically you are right, but in the actual game, defeating the Reapers through Sheer Action Hero Awesomeness is an achievable fiction possibility.

My greatest wish is that they had immersed me enough that I forgot that this was so.

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus also doesn't have the same issue going into the heart of the Terminus systems (Omega) as Citadel races.

That would be definitely a problem if they use the Destiny Ascension for infiltration...but I think they're smarter than that;)
As I said before, it makes no sense (imo) that Cerberus is the only organization in the whole galaxy that is able to examine the collector base.

[Lady1Aph]

Cjrdrifter wrote...

Lady1Aph wrote...

after reading the posts here i wanted to comment on the collector base thing.

I for one destroyed the base, because i honestly dident think that TIM made any valid arguments to why we should keep it, also i did take past events into consideration like what cerberus did with the torian, the husks etc. With all those things in mind i dont think that TIM would be abel to use the base to it fullest portential without failing badly. so it comes down to the fact if u wanna keep cleaning up the mess of TIM`s failurs (not spelled right but u get the meaning) in the furture. Its pretty clear that if u keep the Collector Base then at some point in ME3 ull have to go back to the base to clean up yet another of TIM´s messes.

this besides  that base had most likely tech to indoctrinate its occupants assuming control:devil:

of cause wich means that we are the ones who have to clean up after him. besides if TIM even got the base he of all ppl wouldent resist the temtations of trying to make his own Reaper, the only question is wich race will he use for that

Modifié par Lady1Aph, 01 octobre 2010 - 01:56 .

[General User]

Shandepared wrote...

I recall an entire Alliance fleet pounding away at Sovereign and not even making a scratch. Meanwhile Sovereign was obliterating Alliance ships left and right. That seems like a pretty un-even fight to me and if the war with the Reapers is fought in such a way we are going to run out of fleets very quickly.

Well…yeah! So let’s not fight them that way.
 
Turian admiral: By the spirits! The "Reapers" are real! Mobilize the entire fleet! We shall meet them head on!
 
ADM. Hackett: Let’s see if we can top that plan, I'll call Shepard, and David Anderson.  Why don't you leave the humans to make the battle plans?

Shandepared wrote...It is hard to say exactly what the tech-gap between us and the Reapers is. They seem to have a much better grasp of quantum entaglement, thus their ability to control hosts from across the galaxy. Such technology is incapable of mind control in our hands and is apparently expensive to produce. For the Collectors at least it was widespread, given to every single Collector. It's clear judging by the way galactic civilization communicates (comm bouys and such) that we are far behind.

Yes but how far ahead are they? It’s not impossible to make an educated guess based on the Reaper life-cycle and the practical effects of their technology as seen so far (though I’m sure, between the four of them, EDI, Miranda, Mordin, and Tali could give a fairly accurate estimate). My guess is between 50-100 years to achieve parity without any reverse engineering at all.
 
Quantum entanglement communication is (potentially) an excellent example of the difference between the galactic state of the art and Reaper technology, and I’m glad you brought it up. What seems to be a fairly common place technology for the Reapers is found only on the very cutting edge among certain well-resourced galactic entities (like Cerberus). But it’s not a complete mystery, we're within at least shouting distance.

Shandepared wrote...

Weapons wise? Well we've caught up a bit with the thanix cannon. However that is basically just Reaper tech that we copied. Capturing their technology has leapt us forward. EDI is another example.

Here’s something to noodle over: we’re already ahead of the Reapers in weapons technology! “That’s right people, I said it!” – Mark Levin.  Think about though, the thanix is a miniaturized version of Sovereigns main gun(s), maybe not as powerful, but mountable on smaller (more maneuverable) space-frames (fighters, corvettes, and frigates). If the Reapers could do that they certainly didn't, not on their geth allies' ships, and not on the occuli (which I consider a Reaper fighter).  That's a huge advantage!  And a perfect example of how creativity and innovative application of technology is far more critical than exact tecnological parity.

Shandepared wrote...

When it comes to weapons and cyber-warfare we might be catching up with them. However I wonder how often the thanix can fire? Why haven't we built ships with the same capabilities as Sovereign?

Thanix can fire every 3-5 seconds I believe.  Another reason manueverablity is so important.  At the Battle of the CItadel, Sovreigns main guns had similar firing delays.

Shandepared wrote...

I simply don't know how much more advanced the Reapers are and that is why I advocate keeping the base. It is the only way to find out where we stand and how we might destroy our enemy. Err, baring dues ex machinia.

That's a good reason to keep the base, as long as it was based on an honest assesment of Reaper vs. galactic capabilities and not a fear of what might happen.  I guess that's what I really what to know:  what is your (or anyone's really) assesment of the Reaper threat?  And how did you arrive at it?

Shandepared wrote...

Oh, and indoctrination. How is that created? How does it do what it does? This is something I think that is particularly important because once this technology is understood it will be with us forever and sooner or later somebody will understand it. I want that to be us because the possibilities of indoctrination are, frankly, terrifying.

No argument here.
Given indoctrinations’ ability to produce sleeper agents NAVINT (minus a certain major of course) has its work cut out for it.

[smudboy]

Spectre_907 wrote...

Even though the base should be studied and it may be the key to defeating the Reapers, it's still wrong.

How is there anything inherently wrong or right about it?  That's like saying a gun is wrong.

[General User]

Arijharn wrote...

General User wrote...
I love your analogy of the metre stick, and would like to take it a bit farther. I think all our decisions in ME are inherently binding (or they should be at any rate). The paragon may only use the first 90cm, but the Renegade only uses the last 90cm. Both cut themselves off from something useful for the sake of something else.

Ahh, but you see, you have knowingly limited yourself to 90cm whereas if I'm also only using 90cm then it would be as a repercussion (damn them for punishing me as a renegade!) of my actions. Do you follow? I mean; I've saved the Rachni, I seek an alliance with the Geth and the Quarians et al (and even have aces up my sleeve I guess in Overlord... yeah I know, trying to xanatos gambit everything seems to be an exhausting enterprise) if something backfires on me it'd be despite my machinations, not because of. I do not knowingly limit myself or my chances if you follow what I mean.

@Lovgreno; I absolutely agree, although I was limiting myself in matters more directly involved with impact with the CB, whereas I believe if that any repercussions exist due to using the CB they would be felt after the main narrative on the story (like; epilogue slides etc)

Would it be fair to say you make the best choice available in a given situation? If so I’m right there with you. As any geth will tell you, perspective is oh, so critical when deciding what is the best choice.
 
Your point about knowingly cutting oneself from options is well taken. Truly, paragons do limit themselves as a matter of conscious choice (“there are some lines you don’t cross” “soul of the species” blah, blah, blah). While renegades limit themselves as a matter of unconscious choice, without ever intending to do so, their actions, by their very nature, close certain doors to them. 
 
As a general guideline, I’d rather have my eyes open and at least be aware of all possible options even if I can’t exercise them.

[General User]

Arijharn wrote...

Sorry General, I saw this too late:

General User wrote...
You speak of wishful thinking as a poor basis for decision making (particularly in regards to the CB) but Mass Effect is a role playing game. Who’s to say your Shephard or my Shephard isn’t a man or woman of faith, for whom the Unprovable is the central facet of his or her life and worldview? 

Because how can you base military strategy off divine intervention? Sure that may have worked for the jews when they were escaping the pharaoh, but how often since then has the hand of god bent down from heaven and smote the infidel (without a guiding hand of human ingenuity at work in any case...)

It's honestly okay if you believe in God, but isn't it a tad unrealistic for a seasoned commander to expect heavenly intervention on his behalf?

Wait... I'm not sure how we got onto this topic. There's more minefields here than there are in the Collector Base issue itself, I suggest we about-turn and quick march the hell outta here pronto capt'n.

Agreed, and it is as you say. As we about-face and double-time I hope it will not be too divisive if I make the point that one can have faith in something besides a deity. Faith in ones friends and family, or the basic goodness human (also asari, turian, salarian, quarian, elcor, geth, etc.) race(s) in general seems to rather common among paragons and base-boomers. In a lot of ways such a faith is even harder to maintain than a conventional religion.
 
The faith intelligent military people have isn’t necessarily “God will strike down our enemies!” (sometimes it is). But rather “God will see me through this. And if not I’ll see my loved ones on the other side.” It’s less a source of strategic planning than a source of strength and determination for those doing the planning and especially the fighting.
 
I don’t think that’s too controversial. No particular religion or faith is singled out and it could prove insightful for anyone wishing to understand a paragon mindset. Of course if anyone does object I will drop this line of thought like a snake on fire.