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[General User]

Commander Kurt wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

It's all well and good to say that destroying the base can be used to rally the galaxy but I just can't see how. 

Well, this seems easy enough. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Cerberus has managed to make themselves enemies of everyone. Blowing up the base shows that Shepard is not working for Cerberus, but, rather, is opposing Cerberus dominance. How? By not giving them that technological edge over their enemies.

I don't think they will spring into action because of it, but they will probably prefer fighting with Shepard to fighting with a soon-to-be-dominating-the-galaxy Cerberus.

Well said and I agree completely. 
 
I would like to add that we shouldn’t ignore the racial aspect of a successful Collector base mission that ends in an explosion. Given how divided the Mass Effect galaxy is along racial lines. Having a multi-racial team like team Shepard win an unalloyed victory specifically because they stood as one… well, the propaganda practically writes itself. 



I would also like to respond to some of DPSSOC’s points directly. 


I honestly don’t see blowing the base as having any direct impact on either the Alliance brass (ADM. Hackett excluded) or the Citadel Council (who are, imo, some of the dumbest “insert pejorative term here” to ever claim leadership over others). I expect the impact will be more indirect, with the populace at large being moved by the truth (I know, I know, faith in people again) who will in turn move their leaders to act (or replace them).
 
Arijharn actually raised a similar point a few pages back, calling my claims of dramatic political benefit from destroying the CB “nebulous”. 
 
It’s an excellent criticism because it’s 100% true. Blowing the base does not grant a political benefit in the same way keeping it grants a technological one, rather blowing the base establishes a set of conditions that can be parleyed into political advantage. Setting the stage for the next battle, so to speak.
 
I hope no one will think it too cheap an answer if I make the point that nebulous and grey is the nature of politics. For a straight-forward, nuts-and-bolts sort of person I can easily see how keeping the base and reaping the obvious benefits would be appealing. For someone who is more comfortable seeing the world in terms of shades of grey, I think the potential gains of base destruction clearly outweigh the potential losses.

Modifié par General User, 01 octobre 2010 - 04:17 .

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

If BioWare intends for us to form the Last Alliance of Middle Earth in ME3, so we shall, and our cries of "but Shepard isn't a political leader!" will be rendered quite meaningless.

It will not be the first time an action hero achieved unrealistic feats.

This will probably happen regardless of keeping the collector base or the coucil decision in the first game.

Paragon-Coalition of equals fighting the reapers.

Renegade- Humanity becomes the strongest power in the galaxy, and aliens are forced to fall in line as auxiliaries to prevent their owm reaper induced extinction.

Simple as that. The way bioware handled choices in ME2, I don't think ME3 will have radical story changes depending on your choices either. The above scenario is close enough that can be differentiated with just a few pieces of dialogue.

Modifié par mosor, 01 octobre 2010 - 04:39 .

[Spectre_907]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And here I thought that destroying the C-Base will entail the collapse of the "save zone" beyond the Omega-4 Relay, leaving Shepard with even less physical evidence than in the case of Sovereign's explosion...

Which also makes the paragon option (again) idioically suicidal. How can Shepard be sure that the Normandy will be able to escape in time? But there again, it's a "suicide mission" so Shepard may consider himself and his team expendable, so scratch the "idiotically" part.

The "safe zone" may be referring to a region where one can remain in stable orbit around the supermassive black hole. Black holes have several regions. As you approach the event horizon, your orbit becomes more unstable. A thrust in any direction would randomly send you into the black hole or flying away from it. EDI mentions that using mass relays cause error of several thousand kilometers in a ship's exit vectors. The IFF's purpose was to give a precise exit vector with no drift so you can safely enter orbit with the black hole and enter the base's mass effect field. It may still be possible to recover the remains of the Collector Base even without it's mass effect field.

[lovgreno]

Arijharn wrote...
Hmm, I agree with a caveat though. I don't believe in what I consider 'half measures.' Sure I personally don't like the idea of damning David back into Overlord (because I'm human) but I consider the potential risks much worse. I guess the basic tenant of my whole view of the Renegade/Paragon duopoly is whether I'm okay with ethical costs. I view piling 'sin' on myself more preferable than the great unknown that could affect multiple species and multiple cultures and possibly not just those of the Council races and associates.

What it boils down to is this: Is the risks worth it? Shepard taking the the decisions on his/her own conscience is brave and heroic in it's true meaning but it doesn't change the actual effects of the decision. Take David for example: If I knew putting him into back into that machine would help more than harm I would do it and hate myself for doing that for him. The reason I didn't was that I doubted his brothers judgment in this matter considering what a mess he obviously had created. This project almost unleashed a technological plague on the galaxy, that is a risk I prefer not to take again, especialy as it was implied that more could be done even without the source of danger, David, was removed.

A bit off topic there but similar arguments can be used to keep or blow up the base.

But yeah, as Shepard can't tell the future each decision is basicaly about trying to make a fast decision in a stressed situation based on almost nothing and hope things don't go fubar, this goes for both base options too.

Modifié par lovgreno, 01 octobre 2010 - 07:25 .

[CorvusCorax86]

To be honest, I do not really understand why hating TIM / Cerberus should not affect one's decision with regards to the outcome. In our lives we make  a lot of decisions where personal opinion does actually matter. In many cases emotions drive us instead of logic.

I think the end simply looks better when Shepard disregards TIM's opinion and simply says that regardless of having the technology or not he is going to destroy the Reapers. Personally, I did not find TIM very trusworthy - especially later when it turned out he was not really honest wiht Shepard, after all - so, 3 times out of the 4 walkthroughs I did I decided to just blow up the base.

The 4th was an exception, of course, simply considering the fact that I chose the Renegade way instead of the Paragon. With TIM's attitude I find it very believable that Cerberus decides to use the technology to create weapons that may be given to Shepard and his team and not really doing a thorough research to find a way to be able to immediately disable the Reapers during a full-scale attack.

The guy is awful, untrustworthy and I hated him so much that it felt really good "turning againts him".

Modifié par CorvusCorax86, 01 octobre 2010 - 08:03 .

[Phaedon]

Good.  The idea of liking/disliking TIM has no basis in this argument.

It's not a matter of liking him. I didn't like the councilors either, but I saved their sorry asses, so that the galactic community wouldn't collapse. TIM's personality matters because you have to decide if he will be responsible with keeping the base. In fact, the way I see it is like saying "Oh hey Al Capone, I forgot to put an evidence tag to this fully loaded Thompson of yours, the girl in the evidence vault will kill me if I don't, so would you mind holding it for a bit ?". This is where I base my judgement:
Non-Supplemental Info:

• He is an extremist. A racist.
• He set up the attack on Horizon.
• TIM forgot to mention 'IT'S A TRAP' when Shepard checked the collector ship.
• He mentions 'for the Reapers and beyond' when trying to convince you to keep the base. Turians are too badass for me to allow a genocidal extremist to keep the base.
• I think it's obvious that none of the Cerberus bases in ME1 and ME2 went rogue.
• SB's info.
• Attacking the Migrant Fleet.
• Killing Kahoku.
• Experimenting on asari, rachni and thorian creepers.
• Akuze.

Supplemental Info:

• Ascension Project.
• He implanted Reaper salvage to Paul Grayson.
• (CDN News) He tried to attack the turian authorities in Trident.

One cannot expect ones viewer to know of supplemental in order to influence their choice.  Everything the audience needs should be available to them in the story.  I do not go into a movie with a novel or pamphlet: that would be a failure in storytelling, and even if I did read the novels/comics/didn't play the first game, that should not impact the decision making process.  This is the ME2 story, not some other story.

There is enough evidence for some someone not to trust Cerberus or TIMmy. Hell, anyone with basic education should be cautious when dealing with a  man of extremist beliefs.

Her opinion on Rachni, husks and creppers have NOTHING TO DO with her opinion on the base.  In fact, her opinion on the base is completely irrelevant, as is every other squadmates opinion, especially considering some flip flop after the fact.

My theory is that she understood that everything Cerberus was wrong and well, lies. We'll have to wait for ME3 for that, though.

Fact: TIM did not know about what was happening in Pragia, as the game shows us.

From: Cerberus Intel

Commander Shepard,

Contacting you per Illusive Man's instructions. He believed you would want to know that he had ordered Subject Zero's project shut down before the riot broke out. Cerberus personnel arrived to find all guards dead, along with most of the subjects. Any surviving children were treated for injuries, given mild amnesic treatments, and delivered to Alliance facilities as survivors of slaver attacks. A few surviving doctors were forcibly retired for their role in the project.

Per your report, the facility on Pragia has been destroyed.

Wow, well how unforunate that you were late for just a few hours !

Fact: TIM did not know about what was happening in Overlord, as the game shows us.

I have to doubt that, due to the little experiment on Paul Grayson. I am pretty sure that if Shep happens to find out about that too, some researcher would take the blame. There are like what, a dozen cells in Cerberus ? I'd find it funny if TIM had good enough intel about everything else but the few operations that he has. In fact, EDI says that he likes to supervise every operation.

There is no evidence showing us that TIM is a 1) morally gray, 2) evil character.  I wish there was, because it would define his character more, but there isn't.

Are you saying that there is no evidence in ME2/ME1, or in general ?

Miranda lampshaded Cerberus' ME1 crimes.  "The husks were already dead, the Thorian creepers were mindless, and the rachni were abandoned once we understood their intelligence."  So they experimented on cadavers, mindless creatures, and abandoned their experiments once they realized the rachni were intelligent.  This pretty much clears everything up they did bad in ME1, aside from Akuze: but that's not mentioned because this is the Cerberbus.

It doesn't make them any more unethical. You may say that 'Heck, the Reapers are after us, why should we care about ethics ?'. Because simply, he wouldn't use any of these means to defeat the Reapers. He wants to use them against the turians, the salarians or the asari. So it's not just unethical. It kind of my reminded me of the typical 'We're freedom fighters !' argument, imo.

[mosor]

Phaedon wrote...

This is where I base my judgement:
Non-Supplemental Info:

• He is an extremist. A racist.
• He set up the attack on Horizon.
• TIM forgot to mention 'IT'S A TRAP' when Shepard checked the collector ship.
• He mentions 'for the Reapers and beyond' when trying to convince you to keep the base. Turians are too badass for me to allow a genocidal extremist to keep the base.
• I think it's obvious that none of the Cerberus bases in ME1 and ME2 went rogue.
• SB's info.
• Attacking the Migrant Fleet.
• Killing Kahoku.
• Experimenting on asari, rachni and thorian creepers.
• Akuze.

1. Name 1 racist thing TIM has said or done?
2. Horizon was a trap for the collectors. Any good hunder knows that if you can't find your prey, you make your prey come to you.
3. Telling Shepard it was a trap could have tipped off the collectors.
4. What evidence do you have that TIM is genocidal?
5. Based on what evidence that you can throw the term obvious with certainty?
6. Shadow Broker info shows TIM to be a man****, who likes to sleep with asari matriachs. Some racist!
7. Why are we gonna cry over the migrant fleet? Wouldn't have happened if Sanders didn't use them as a meat shield against cerberus.
8. Traitor got what was coming.
9. Thorian creepers and rachni, are mindless. I have more sympathy monkeys getting experimented on. Even the rachni queen tells you to kill her children,.

[Xilizhra]

1. Name 1 racist thing TIM has said or done?

The whackjob pamphlet he wrote that gave him his name. I.e. the only direct evidence of his character when he's not talking to Shepard.

4. What evidence do you have that TIM is genocidal?

At the very least, he's power-hungry on behalf of humanity.

5. Based on what evidence that you can throw the term obvious with certainty?

The fact that TIM keeps Cerberus operations at a small number to keep an eye on all of them.

6. Shadow Broker info shows TIM to be a man****, who likes to sleep with asari matriachs. Some racist!

Have you never heard of slave owners who screwed their own slaves? Just because someone is inferior in your eyes doesn't mean they're not hot.

7. Why are we gonna cry over the migrant fleet? Wouldn't have happened if Sanders didn't use them as a meat shield against cerberus.

And Cerberus plowed through them anyway. They did the damage to the fleet; it's their responsibility.

8. Traitor got what was coming.

It's good to know where you stand, I guess, even if it is evil.

[lovgreno]

You can turn these arguments for or against TIMmy with little imagination. Personaly though I find him very good at making enemies, directly or indirectly with Cerberus and the "rogue cells" caused by his bad leadership. Making enemies with turians is a very bad idea under any circumstances and considering the coming of the reapers I belive it's vital that they point their cannons at them instead of humanity. But perhaps you find the plans to a deathstar to fend off reapers and other races in the base. That feels more badass perhaps. Or you may find a nothing or maybe a trap that makes things even worse, it is impossible to know for Shepard when the decision had to be made. Call me stupid for this if it makes you feel smarter.

Modifié par lovgreno, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:12 .

[Phaedon]

mosor wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

This is where I base my judgement:
Non-Supplemental Info:

• He is an extremist. A racist.
• He set up the attack on Horizon.
• TIM forgot to mention 'IT'S A TRAP' when Shepard checked the collector ship.
• He mentions 'for the Reapers and beyond' when trying to convince you to keep the base. Turians are too badass for me to allow a genocidal extremist to keep the base.
• I think it's obvious that none of the Cerberus bases in ME1 and ME2 went rogue.
• SB's info.
• Attacking the Migrant Fleet.
• Killing Kahoku.
• Experimenting on asari, rachni and thorian creepers.
  • Akuze.

1. Name 1 racist thing TIM has said or done?

" For years, the Illusive Man has been using Cerberus and his immense network of contacts to achieve his goal - that of making humanity ascendant above all other races"

. In fact, the whole reason Cerberus was created was because of hate. After the destruction of Shanxi, he asked for volunteers that would help humanity against the other races.
2. Horizon was a trap for the collectors. Any good hunder knows that if you can't find your prey, you make your prey come to you.

I don't see how this makes it OK, or makes his character less evil.
3. Telling Shepard it was a trap could have tipped off the collectors.

How ?
4. What evidence do you have that TIM is genocidal?

Against the Reapers and...beyond. 
5. Based on what evidence that you can throw the term obvious with certainty?

I have presented my evidence.
6. Shadow Broker info shows TIM to be a man****, who likes to sleep with asari matriachs. Some racist!

He also has no problem with murdering popes and torturing asari. For science ! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]
7. Why are we gonna cry over the migrant fleet? Wouldn't have happened if Sanders didn't use them as a meat shield against cerberus.

This view actually sounds extremist IRL. 
8. Traitor got what was coming.

Traitor to whom ? The 'freedom fighters' ? Since Cerberus was an alliance unit at first, it's far more likely that TIM is the traitor. 
9. Thorian creepers and rachni, are mindless. I have more sympathy monkeys getting experimented on. Even the rachni queen tells you to kill her children,.

Since you don't seem to mind, I'll go experiment on your cadaver.  It's for humanity !

[Reever]

At first, I kept the base...cuz I thought : "Even if TIM would try something, I´d still be there and stop him/ hold him back".

And of course, there are risks, but the gains you could make from the tech...

[Phaedon]

BlueDemonX wrote...

At first, I kept the base...cuz I thought : "Even if TIM would try something, I´d still be there and stop him/ hold him back".
And of course, there are risks, but the gains you could make from the tech...

Modifié par Phaedon, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:44 .

[mosor]

@Phedon and Xilizhra

Sorry your bullet points make it hard to reply and your red text is hard on the eyes.

1. Uhm there isn't much info about the contents of that manifesto.The snippets we do have talk about humanity taking it's rightful place in the galaxy and asserting itself against alien powers. That's no more racist than if a Chinese person said that China should take it's rightful place in the world and assert itself against western interests.

2. What would you have preferred? The collectors abducting other human colonies, with no way of tracking them to fight them?

3. Who knows. TIM doesn't fully trust Shepard. In your case, for good reason.

4. You're reaching if that's all the evidence you have. To extrapolate the statement "to secure human dominance against the reapers...and beyond" present it as evidence for some genocidal plot, then I can only conclude you have an active imagination

5. You haven't presented any evidence that that Pragia didn't go rogue. Only a statement you want to be true.

6. Where does it say that Cerberus tortured asari? It just says they experimented on asari captives and developed a serum to negate biotic powers. Again, you're making up info you want to be true. For all we know, those asari could have been eclipse merc scum. They even got their powers back in 3-5 days.

7. It's not extremist not to feel sorry for the migrant fleet. The quarian leaders are to blame for sheltering them, They were too confident cerberus couldn't pull off a raid. It's not like the quarians where floating around, minding their own business and big bad cerberus decided to bully them for no reason.

8. Haha, the alliance says Kahokou died of natural causes, when any reputable autopsy would have concluded otherwise. I also assume Shepard must have filled a mission report and that they read it. The alliance protected Cerberus. So yes he is a traitor for trying to sell them out to the shadow broker.

9. I already filled out an organ donor card. Experiment away. If my body manages to save lives after my death, that would be wonderful.

Modifié par mosor, 01 octobre 2010 - 10:04 .

[Reever]

Phaedon wrote...

yeah, I know, but hey, you must know what your Shep wants and thinks.

[Barquiel]

I don't think we can call Kahoku a traitor.

We meet four alliance admirals in ME1/ME2. Kahoku, Anderson, Hackett and Mikhailovich (Did I forget someone?)...and two of them try to take cerberus down.
Hackett: no data available (but he doesn't stop Shep on her Cerberus killing spree in ME1)
It wouldn't surprise me if Mikhailovich sympathizes with cerberus.

Seriously, someone in the alliance should inform all admirals that cerberus isn't the enemy...if they think it's treason.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Cerberus was blamed for the attack on Horizon by the Alliance. This was obviously a fabrication. I think that Cerberus, while certainly not clean, has been overexaggerated.

[mosor]

Barquiel wrote...

I don't think we can call Kahoku a traitor.

We meet four alliance admirals in ME1/ME2. Kahoku, Anderson, Hackett and Mikhailovich (Did I forget someone?)...and two of them try to take cerberus down.
Hackett: no data available (but he doesn't stop Shep on her Cerberus killing spree in ME1)
It wouldn't surprise me if Mikhailovich sympathizes with cerberus.

Seriously, someone in the alliance should inform all admirals that cerberus isn't the enemy...if they think it's treason.

Wouldn't suprise me if Hackett sympathizes with Cerberus either.

1. He asks you to investigate the killing of alliance scientists who are really working with Cerberus.
2. The shadow broker file on him, where the major asks persmission to take Shepard into custody because of his work with cerberus only to have the request denied.

Granted it's not strong evidence, but if Hackett was affiliated with Cerberus, I wouldn't be suprised. As for Anderson, his promotion was recent. The lay of the land was different 2 years ago.

[Barquiel]

...and even the Shadow Broker doesn't know what Admiral Hackett looks like. You're probably right, he's suspicious^_^

[smudboy]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

• He is an extremist. A racist.

[/quote]
I have no doubt that TIM takes extreme measures.  Those measures pay off.  In fact, he may be just the only type of guy who can stop the Reapers.

But regardless, show me an example where TIM is a racist.

[quote]

• He set up the attack on Horizon.

[/quote]
This has been debated to death.  It is a GOOD THING he did this.  Also he did not set it up, he lured the Collectors there by tipping off that the VS would be there.

[quote]

• TIM forgot to mention 'IT'S A TRAP' when Shepard checked the collector ship.

[/quote]
Also debated to death.  It is a GOOD THING he did this.  I don't personally agree with it, but it turned out for the better.

[quote]

• He mentions 'for the Reapers and beyond' when trying to convince you to keep the base. Turians are too badass for me to allow a genocidal extremist to keep the base.

[/quote]
Your opinion of Turians is irrelevant.  Regardless, he wants to fight the Reapers FIRST.  One problem at a time.  Save the galaxy first, then deal with the consequences and all your TURIAN BADASS opinions.

[quote]

• I think it's obvious that none of the Cerberus bases in ME1 and ME2 went rogue.

[/quote]
Then Cerberus is still part of the Alliance.

[quote]

• SB's info.

[/quote]
Please be specific.

[quote]

• Attacking the Migrant Fleet.

[/quote]
Subjective.

[quote]

• Killing Kahoku.

[/quote]
Killing a traitor?

[quote]

• Experimenting on asari, rachni and thorian creepers.

[/quote]
None of which are ethically gray, hurt, or killed anyone.

[quote]

• Akuze.

[/quote]
Blame the Alliance.

[quote]
Supplemental Info:
[/quote]
All irrelevant.  Stick to the games.

[quote]
There is enough evidence for some someone not to trust Cerberus or TIMmy. Hell, anyone with basic education should be cautious when dealing with a  man of extremist beliefs.
[/quote]
Trust is irrelevant toward TIM.   TIM, and Cerberus, trust Shepard.

[quote]
My theory is that she understood that everything Cerberus was wrong and well, lies. We'll have to wait for ME3 for that, though.
[/quote]
Speculation.  She wouldn't have lied to us about them.

[quote]From: Cerberus Intel

Commander Shepard,

Contacting you per Illusive Man's instructions. He believed you would want to know that he had ordered Subject Zero's project shut down before the riot broke out. Cerberus personnel arrived to find all guards dead, along with most of the subjects. Any surviving children were treated for injuries, given mild amnesic treatments, and delivered to Alliance facilities as survivors of slaver attacks. A few surviving doctors were forcibly retired for their role in the project.

Per your report, the facility on Pragia has been destroyed.[/quote]
Man's a goddamned hero.

[quote]
I have to doubt that, due to the little experiment on Paul Grayson. I am pretty sure that if Shep happens to find out about that too, some researcher would take the blame. There are like what, a dozen cells in Cerberus ? I'd find it funny if TIM had good enough intel about everything else but the few operations that he has. In fact, EDI says that he likes to supervise every operation.
[/quote]
No evidence to support your claim.

[quote]
Are you saying that there is no evidence in ME2/ME1, or in general ?
[/quote]
There is none.  The narrative told us the EXACT OPPOSITE in regards to Pragia and Overlord.

[quote]
It doesn't make them any more unethical. You may say that 'Heck, the Reapers are after us, why should we care about ethics ?'. Because simply, he wouldn't use any of these means to defeat the Reapers. He wants to use them against the turians, the salarians or the asari. So it's not just unethical. It kind of my reminded me of the typical 'We're freedom fighters !' argument, imo.[/quote]
Exactly what is unethical?  Experimenting on dead bodies?  Experimenting on mindless drones?  Then, discovering rachni were intelligent, then stopping their experiments?  If they were unethical, they would've kept experimenting on the rachni.  But they didn't.

Hmm.

Now that's not to say all Cerberus cells are ethical.  We know they're not.  But we're talking about TIM here.  TIM is not a morally gray character: the narrative is quite clear about this.

[DPSSOC]

Commander Kurt wrote...
Well, this seems easy enough. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 
Except, apparently, when Cerberus is the enemy of your enemy (sorry cheap shot, had to do it).

Commander Kurt wrote...
Cerberus has managed to make themselves enemies of everyone. Blowing up the base shows that Shepard is not working for Cerberus, but, rather, is opposing Cerberus dominance. How? By not giving them that technological edge over their enemies.

Yes but that isn't rallying them, that's not even rousing them.  That's you standing up and shouting, "I'm not working for those guys no more!  I demand a gold star!"  Rallying is something that encourages people to hop on the Shepard Wagon and ride.  Something like, "Hey I've got access to advanced tech from beyond Omega-4.  Interested?"  Now I'm not saying that keeping the base will definitely get people to hop on but it gives you a bargaining chip beyond goodwill (cause we've seen how that goes).

Commander Kurt wrote...
I don't think they will spring into action because of it, but they will probably prefer fighting with Shepard to fighting with a soon-to-be-dominating-the-galaxy Cerberus.

Fair enough.

General User wrote...
I would like to add that we shouldn’t ignore the racial aspect of a successful Collector base mission that ends in an explosion. Given how divided the Mass Effect galaxy is along racial lines. Having a multi-racial team like team Shepard win an unalloyed victory specifically because they stood as one… well, the propaganda practically writes itself.

And this requires the destruction of the Collector Base...why?  How many times do you have to stand together as one and achieve the impossible to impress people in this galaxy?  Cerberus, the terrorist organization, funded a multi-racial crew, headed by a Council agent/Alliance legend (they'll reinstate your status if you want it or not for good PR), to break through the Omega-4 Relay and defeat the Collectors on their home turf as a joint effort to stop the abductions in the  Terminus Systems (people they hold no obligation to).  That is good propaganda material and you still get to study the base.

General User wrote...
I honestly don’t see blowing the base as having any direct impact on either the Alliance brass (ADM. Hackett excluded) or the Citadel Council (who are, imo, some of the dumbest “insert pejorative term here” to ever claim leadership over others). I expect the impact will be more indirect, with the populace at large being moved by the truth (I know, I know, faith in people again) who will in turn move their leaders to act (or replace them).

I'm sure the people would rise up and demand action if they learned the truth but how do you propose to do that?  Let's keep in mind the Council has been running with the story that Shepard lost his/her damn mind in pursuit of Saren for two years.  Now you can convince them of what's really going on but you can't make them go public.  If you choose to go public regardless they will continue to run with "He/She's crazy." and throw in "with ties to a terrorist organization."  Without some kind of bargaining chip, a knife to hold to the Council's throat, I don't see how you can get the truth out.  The potential tech from the CB (and the advantages that gives Cerberus) is that knife.

General User wrote...
It’s an excellent criticism because it’s 100% true. Blowing the base does not grant a political benefit in the same way keeping it grants a technological one, rather blowing the base establishes a set of conditions that can be parleyed into political advantage. Setting the stage for the next battle, so to speak.

And again I ask how.  I'm sorry if I seem slow but how do you to propose to turn destroying the Collector base into political capital?  All you have is your word that you did it, which the Council has said before, isn't good enough, and since the base is destroyed you can't even prove you did it.  Even if you take them back and show the debris you could just as easily found the debris and claimed that you destroyed it.  But let's say they believe you about destroying the base.  So what?  What does it matter to them you pissed off Cerberus?  Now even if they would demand you be tarred and feathered for keeping the base, destroying it is a net-zero operation.  It doesn't benefit them or harm Cerberus so their position is no different in the end.  So if you would be so kind what's your long term plan, I'm not asking for a lot of detail but what's your idea of how to spin this.
 

General User wrote...
I hope no one will think it too cheap an answer if I make the point that nebulous and grey is the nature of politics. For a straight-forward, nuts-and-bolts sort of person I can easily see how keeping the base and reaping the obvious benefits would be appealing. For someone who is more comfortable seeing the world in terms of shades of grey, I think the potential gains of base destruction clearly outweigh the potential losses.

I'll admit to being a nuts and bolts kind sort, I have little skill or patience for politics.  I persuade people through illustrating facts A, B, and C along with how they lead to inevitable conclusion D.  If the fails I've really got no where to go.

[Sago_mulch]

this thread is an seemingly eternal war, many young naive basement dwellers risk their egos to fight for plot and e-peen. seven years later an armistice treaty will be signed, smugboy will be overwhelmed by the fanboy allies and smugboy will be nearly banned, he will only be allowed to post under the certain conditions;



-constantly praise the ME2 plotline like the many idiots on here

-gently massage david gaiders body with his bare hands

-post pictures of himself whilst naked, holding up a sign ''i love me2 plot''



smugboy will go through a deep psychological and economic crisis for several years, raging that he is unable to get a job because he is hated and reviled wherever he goes because me2 is that popular(lol). after having enough, smugboy has a massive reformation in thinking and money. he gets a job as a computer programmer and uses his new A+++ skillz to hack the biowear forums, stanley woo will be executed, david gaider will be forced to write for michael bay and seagloom will give the capslock back and many supporters like Salgo_mulch and many others(not sago_mulch, honest) will join his hack kiddie corp to wage war on ea and activision. A massive debate happens on the very forum that smugboy was humiliated on many years before however, EA and activision only just manage to beat them, smugboy kills himself rl and salgo_mulch retreats to rpgcodex. FOREVER.



over 50 mil- eh, i mean 50 ppl had their egos perma lost during this bitter, bitter and pointless debate.

[Xilizhra]

Man's a goddamned hero.

Why do you trust everything he says?

[mosor]

Xilizhra wrote...

Man's a goddamned hero.

Why do you trust everything he says?

No one really trusts TIM fully, So far he's proven to be a useful tool against the reapers. He gets out of line, he swallows a bullet. Simple as that. Saving the base is the logical course of action. The arguments against saving it are about what might possibly happen rather than the situation at hand, the reaper threat.

What I have a problem with is that there are a lot of gaps of information regarding cerberus or their ultimate intentions. People like to fill the gaps with whatever information suits them. I'm just calling them out on it.

[Xilizhra]

Obviously. The arguments for keeping the base are also based on what might possibly happen. Since we can't see the future, this is all we have.