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[2342]

I destroyed the base mainly because Cerberus has a few too many operations that go off the reservation. Even if I did trust TIM to not misuse the base I wasn't going to trust who ever he put in charge of studying the base.



As far as possible consequences of what I did I remind myself that if that base had information about indoctrination could I trust anyone not to try and use that knowledge in you know indoctrinate people.



I guess for me it all boils down to absolute power corrupting absolutly and that base was a whole lot of power. Better to just get rid of it.

[UNAVAILABLE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Did you keep the Collector Base?

If yes, why? What did you think you would gain? What reservations did you have about doing so, if any? What do you feel about the universal companion unease about the decision, even those who supported keeping it? How did Cerberus's past factor into your decision?

If not, why? If it's about TIM in particular, what's your basis? Because of Cerberus? How did Cerberus's past factor into your decision? Would you have given it to someone else? Do you really think the base is dangerous, and on what grounds?

Thank you for keeping this topic alive.

I lean towards destroying the base, but I do acknowledge there are valid considerations for keeping it.

The main point to keeping it is the potential for gained technology. Let's keep in mind that the Reapers have already obligingly given us technology, but it was for the purpose of helping them destroy us.

But wait, I hear you cry, they gave that to us on purpose, Harbinger didn't know Shepard was going to breach the O-4 relay. But consider that Harbinger did get advanced warning. The Reaper IFF beamed a signal to the Collector ship from the Normandy, summoning it to attack. The Collector ship is thwarted, and the Normandy escapes. Since the Normandy is no longer broadcasting its position, Harbinger can be certain that the virus defenses have been overcome and the IFF is installed and functioning on board the Normandy.

At this point Harbinger has the choice of trying to defend the base against Shepard, or start planning for Shepard to take the base.

Why would Harbinger, powerful as he is, think that Shepard can defeat him? Well, Harbinger is not physically there. Everything he can accomplish is done through his organic slaves. I think its safe to assume that the Reapers consider all organics, even their genetically modified slaves, as infinitely inferior to themselves. Shepard defeated Sovereign. Why would Harbinger assume that his weak, pathetic, and totally uncool organic minions are up to the task? Especially considering that they did kill Shepard once, and it apparently failed to help much. If I were Harbinger I would be foaming at the mouth at the failure of my minions - even when they succeed, they fail.

Given the above line of reasoning, I believe that Harbinger began implementing the contingency plan for losing the base as soon as he realizes Shepard can breach the O-4 relay.

What might such a plan look like? Besides the obvious potential indoctrination, consider the base computers contain a data cache of schematics, cyberwarfare code routines - a treasure trove of tech. The schematics are complicated, and not everything can be understood, but your tech experts believe that with a lot of hard work, some of these devices can be constructed. And they succeed beyond anyones expectations, new weaponry, shield upgrades, targetting systems, FTL improvements, but wait. Remember indoctrination. Remember that it is an "undetectable" energy form. Suppose that the Reapers included in the schematics a transmitter or receiver of such energy. No scientist or engineer would be able to identify the device because our science doesn't even have a word to describe/categorize the energy much less have any theories on what a transmitting device might look like. Any signal sweeping we might do of the device would reveal nothing. Now, I'm not suggesting that these devices would actually begin indoctrinating people, but I am suggesting that the receiver/transmitter could allow the Reapers to communicate with those devices.

Once the Reapers show up, they would instantly be able to locate:
all your warships that have been outfitted to fight the Reapers
all your shipyards/drydocks that are modifying ships
all your factories that are producing this anti-Reaper weaponry
all your R&D labs that are studying this tech

Obviously some of this data would be available to them from the Citadel, but things such as the whereabouts of Cerberus labs most certainly would not. In addition to simply giving away critical position info, these devices could also contain killswitches, backdoors for virus uploads, etc.


So what if, instead of using data downloaded from the base which could be suspect, we simply stick to what we can learn by disassembling/reverse engineering the base. This does seem a safer course of action, but I'm thinking a more futile one. First, the studies of mass relays and the Citadel have yielded little in the way of breakthrough understanding in centuries. It seems unlikely that a Reaper factory is going to be several orders of magnitude easier to understand. Thus studying it is not likely to produce any results that will be helpful in the upcoming war. Second, the base itself is not a weapon, nor does it appear to have any. Therefore, even if you gain insight into some new technology or science, you still have to go through the process of developing that technology into a useable weapon. For example, consider how long it was between the discovery of the atom and the development of the atomic bomb. Finally, even if some new-tech weapon can be developed, how are you going to test its effectiveness against Reapers?


So what do I propose as realistic alternatives? There are several possibilities.
There is a graveyard of ancient ships surrounding the Collector Base. Those should be boarded and studied extensively. There is a defunct mass accelerator cannon that killed the Derelict Reaper. Since this weapon is a proven Reaper killer, considerable effort should be made to recreate it. There is also the Reaper IFF itself. Does this device emit a signal constantly, or only when needed? If it is constant, then you could develop a nuclear minefield that keys in on its signal. Also missile guidance systems could be programmed to home in on its signal. Even if it is not constant, its possible that by sending the correct signal to an IFF, you can make it squawk a response, thereby opening a vulnerability to the attacks previously mentioned.

I could add my dislike/distrust of Cerberus, but methinks this post is long enough.

Edit: Oh year. No baseless personal attacks are to be thrown around.

I would add, even if you think your personal attacks are not baseless, please don't assume the rest of us want to read them. This thread already went down in flames once.

Modifié par UNAVAILABLE, 26 septembre 2010 - 07:29 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Dionkey wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Cwbushido wrote...

I agree with Ieldra2. I too saved the base and gave it to TIM so the knowledge can be used. At least with TIM, you know it will be used to fight the reapers. Any info on a unknown enemy is useful. The intel in the base could save the lives of millions. I would rather not find out the hard way and watch a planet die because I didn't know they had that kind of power.

But you have to understand, even with Shepard, TIM never comes clean. Even if we stop the reapers he will take the tech from them and absolutely enslave every alien race, or at least put them under dictatorship. He will throw out the alliance  and kick everyone out of the council (If they aren't already human). This will cause alien races to revolt and wars will erupt. Not the best idea.

Wait, so now TIM's godly competent and limitless?

'Dominant' does not entail dictatorship, slavery, or genocide. They are not mutually inclusive.

TIM can try whatever he wants... but he's still going to have Cerberus (150+ operatives) to do it with. It really cuts down on his abilities, especially considering how post-Reapers everyone else is going to have their hands on Reaper debris to reverse engineer and study.

No TIM might not be godly but his partners will be. As soon as he has reaper tech he will have people flocking left and right to fund him. All he has to do is get influence. A alliance fleet won't stand up to a reaper fleet and they will drop their guns as soon as he asks. If he has the reapers first he will be calling the shots and can take what ever the hell he wants from the debris. If he is really for humanity he will surely try to get his roots as far as they can get, I dont expect a mass take over but slowly and surely he will. And no one will be able to stop him.

Since the Alliance fleets and Geth fleets and Council fleets and Krogan fleets and Rachni fleets and Quarian fleets have already stood upto actual reaper fleets, and the Alliance as a whole is not in TIM's pockets, he only has connections with some influential people... no.

The Illusive Man can't even keep his sex life a mystery. He couldn't keep his station from being found in Retribution. TIM can influence things, but Cerberus can not conquer... nor has it shown any interest to conquer. War is not the best thing for human interests.

And the idea of making actual Reapers from the base is a grossly bad use of the base's potential.

Also I wouldn't expect him to do genocide or slavery, but would he make humans have more rights than aliens? Absolutely.

Given that until recently humans didn't have the same rights as the Turians, and now they enjoy rights superior to the rest of the galaxy bar the Council, that's not some great new injustice.

Genocide would happen if they revolted which would surely happen especially with the krogan or turians.

By the time Cerberus could commit genocide, they'd already be in a position where they don't need to because they're so dominant.

Cerberus doesn't have a history of species genocide, nor has it ever professed an interest in it. The only group in the galaxy that has and still makes genocide matter of policy is the Council.

[LorDC]

Dionkey wrote...
Also I wouldn't expect him to do genocide or slavery, but would he make humans have more rights than aliens? Absolutely. Genocide would happen if they revolted which would surely happen especially with the krogan or turians.

You say "humans have more rights" like it is something bad. Problem is that at this moment some races have more rights than another. Asari, Turians and Salarians basically are first class races while Quarians and Batarians are next to nothing. Council does not mind using force to put another races into line(they threatened to bomb one of Quarian colonies to give planet to Volus).

[wizardryforever]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I believe understanding is the key to the future. Unless there is a compelling reason to do so, you do not destroy knowledge. Were the Reaper threat not present, denying the base to to TIM might, or might not, be compelling enough to justify destroying it, but with the Reaper threat present, it's definitely not.
As a result of this belief, I am an avowed enemy of the notion that there are "things man was not meant to know". I do not subscribe to the notion that that knowledge can be evil.

That's the thing though, all the knowledge of the Collectors has already been extracted by EDI, when she mined their computers.  That's where the info on the datapad at the end of the game comes from.  So keeping technology for knowledge that you already have is rather pointless. 


Of course, there's no guarantee that EDI got everything she could from the base, so you could justify it by saying that there could be more there.  EDI is pretty thorough though, so I don't think so.  Really, you're risking a lot by keeping decidedly dangerous technology on the off chance there might be something useful to be learned that you don't already know.  You're right that knowledge itself is not evil, but how that knowledge is obtained or used can be.

If all the knowledge in the base were already obtained, there would be no point for TIM to keep the base: he could simply rebuild everything in secret, without any confrontation with Shepard. There would be no basis for any delimma, and the choice wouldn't even be an issue because, again, TIM wouldn't lose anything if he had the knowledge (which, as EDI was already giving him info, he would already have).

EDI has gained information, but we have nothing to suggest (and the entire choice to imply against) that she got 'everything', or most of everything, or even a lot of anything. The datapad at the end was... a picture of Harbringer. Nothing more.

And how is there an 'off' chance something usable can come from it? We've spent half the game scrounging Collector, Reaper, and evil merc group technologies. We

This is a rather masterful decision on Bioware's part, because there are just as many pros as there are cons for each side.  I for one chose to destroy the base, mostly because I saw nothing there that could be of use against the Reapers.  Definitely nothing that EDI wouldn't have already extracted, and nothing worth the dangers of keeping the base, much less under Cerberus control.

Reaper shields, material sciencies, AI construct study, weaponry, engines, mass effect core technologies, husk derivatives, genetic engineering, seeker swarm technology, and particle beam advances are nothing of use?

Did you not read this bolded sentence at all?  I'm not saying that my decision is the only way, and that others who chose the other way are wrong.  Mmkay?  And besides, it seems more far-fetched to think that EDI did nothing more than get an image of Harbinger for us.  After all, she was the one who found out all about the Reaper that they were building, yes?  Furthermore, she would definitely take the opportunity to gain as much knowledge as possible in the time allowed.  Again, no guarantee that there isn't something she missed, but I doubt it.

I'm of the opinion that using the Reaper technology is not the brightest idea, simply because they most likely know how to counter their own technology.  True, they didn't intend for anybody to get this tech, but we still have a better chance if we come up with our own ideas, instead of constantly using theirs.

[Dionkey]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Cwbushido wrote...

I agree with Ieldra2. I too saved the base and gave it to TIM so the knowledge can be used. At least with TIM, you know it will be used to fight the reapers. Any info on a unknown enemy is useful. The intel in the base could save the lives of millions. I would rather not find out the hard way and watch a planet die because I didn't know they had that kind of power.

But you have to understand, even with Shepard, TIM never comes clean. Even if we stop the reapers he will take the tech from them and absolutely enslave every alien race, or at least put them under dictatorship. He will throw out the alliance  and kick everyone out of the council (If they aren't already human). This will cause alien races to revolt and wars will erupt. Not the best idea.

Wait, so now TIM's godly competent and limitless?

'Dominant' does not entail dictatorship, slavery, or genocide. They are not mutually inclusive.

TIM can try whatever he wants... but he's still going to have Cerberus (150+ operatives) to do it with. It really cuts down on his abilities, especially considering how post-Reapers everyone else is going to have their hands on Reaper debris to reverse engineer and study.

No TIM might not be godly but his partners will be. As soon as he has reaper tech he will have people flocking left and right to fund him. All he has to do is get influence. A alliance fleet won't stand up to a reaper fleet and they will drop their guns as soon as he asks. If he has the reapers first he will be calling the shots and can take what ever the hell he wants from the debris. If he is really for humanity he will surely try to get his roots as far as they can get, I dont expect a mass take over but slowly and surely he will. And no one will be able to stop him.

Since the Alliance fleets and Geth fleets and Council fleets and Krogan fleets and Rachni fleets and Quarian fleets have already stood upto actual reaper fleets, and the Alliance as a whole is not in TIM's pockets, he only has connections with some influential people... no.

The Illusive Man can't even keep his sex life a mystery. He couldn't keep his station from being found in Retribution. TIM can influence things, but Cerberus can not conquer... nor has it shown any interest to conquer. War is not the best thing for human interests.

And the idea of making actual Reapers from the base is a grossly bad use of the base's potential.

Also I wouldn't expect him to do genocide or slavery, but would he make humans have more rights than aliens? Absolutely.

Given that until recently humans didn't have the same rights as the Turians, and now they enjoy rights superior to the rest of the galaxy bar the Council, that's not some great new injustice.

Genocide would happen if they revolted which would surely happen especially with the krogan or turians.

By the time Cerberus could commit genocide, they'd already be in a position where they don't need to because they're so dominant.

Cerberus doesn't have a history of species genocide, nor has it ever professed an interest in it. The only group in the galaxy that has and still makes genocide matter of policy is the Council.

Cerberus has no need to hide reapers, if they engage Harbringers fleet head on they will be heiled as heroes. Everyone will be wanting to grab a piece of their tech.  And as soon as humans get their hands on it they wont stop. Now dont get me wrong, I don't think any other race would be different but the thing is, giving that much power to one race is too much,you simply can't do it. All it takes is one mad man and you have a whole war on your hands.

[LorDC]

wizardryforever wrote...
I'm of the opinion that using the Reaper technology is not the brightest idea, simply because they most likely know how to counter their own technology.  True, they didn't intend for anybody to get this tech, but we still have a better chance if we come up with our own ideas, instead of constantly using theirs.

So we should just hope for some miraculous new technology to be invented? Yeah, Mordin should have prayed to god instead of studying seeker swarms.

[wizardryforever]

LorDC wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...
I'm of the opinion that using the Reaper technology is not the brightest idea, simply because they most likely know how to counter their own technology.  True, they didn't intend for anybody to get this tech, but we still have a better chance if we come up with our own ideas, instead of constantly using theirs.

So we should just hope for some miraculous new technology to be invented? Yeah, Mordin should have prayed to god instead of studying seeker swarms.

Please, that's a complete strawman argument.  We should use our own creations instead of mooching off of the Reapers.  Besides, Mordin's countermeasure was something he came up with on his own, he didn't steal from the Reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
-snip-

Since I really, really, don't want to quote a whole text blob like that.

Your point revolves around that indoctrination is an undetectable form, as if that's a permanent status. Radio waves are undetectable without radio transmitters as well: study, however, can provide an understanding of what to look for. Any thing that can calculate, measure, and project a signal (like indoctrination devices) has to have a way to measure it as well. That we don't know it in ME1 doesn't mean it can't be found.


Reverse engineering, which you addressed after, goes much faster in the ME universe. The prothean data cache gave hundreds of years in a fraction of the time. The game supports the lore in this case.

[Dionkey]

LorDC wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
Also I wouldn't expect him to do genocide or slavery, but would he make humans have more rights than aliens? Absolutely. Genocide would happen if they revolted which would surely happen especially with the krogan or turians.

You say "humans have more rights" like it is something bad. Problem is that at this moment some races have more rights than another. Asari, Turians and Salarians basically are first class races while Quarians and Batarians are next to nothing. Council does not mind using force to put another races into line(they threatened to bomb one of Quarian colonies to give planet to Volus).

Well think about this, if the jewish people in WW2 were to some how over throw the axis and take control of germanies resources, you don't think they would be pretty angry? Of course, this is basic psychology. Now this is no where near the same thing and I can't compare aliens of ME to the Third Reich but you get the idea, it could be well applied to anything. When the ball is in there court, they will use it ruthlessly, simple as that.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]wizardryforever wrote...
This is a rather masterful decision on Bioware's part, because there are just as many pros as there are cons for each side.  I for one chose to destroy the base, mostly because I saw nothing there that could be of use against the Reapers.  Definitely nothing that EDI wouldn't have already extracted, and nothing worth the dangers of keeping the base, much less under Cerberus control.
[/quote]Reaper shields, material sciencies, AI construct study, weaponry, engines, mass effect core technologies, husk derivatives, genetic engineering, seeker swarm technology, and particle beam advances are nothing of use?
[/quote]

Did you not read this bolded sentence at all?  I'm not saying that my decision is the only way, and that others who chose the other way are wrong.  Mmkay?  And besides, it seems more far-fetched to think that EDI did nothing more than get an image of Harbinger for us.  After all, she was the one who found out all about the Reaper that they were building, yes?  Furthermore, she would definitely take the opportunity to gain as much knowledge as possible in the time allowed.  Again, no guarantee that there isn't something she missed, but I doubt it.[/quote]I also read your sentence right after that, in which you promptly contradicted it in your belief. I was incredulous.

No one said that EDI got nothing more than an image of Harbringer. What was said is that all we know is that she got an image. She clearly got some things, but to conclude she got everything, when the delimma promptly followed it, is weak reasoning at best.
[quote]
I'm of the opinion that using the Reaper technology is not the brightest idea, simply because they most likely know how to counter their own technology.  True, they didn't intend for anybody to get this tech, but we still have a better chance if we come up with our own ideas, instead of constantly using theirs.[/quote]Our own ideas will simply be things they've mastered two hundred years earlier. A fresh idea in 1900 is still only as good as the technology of 1900 allows, it never out-techs or outsmarts a stale technology from 2000.

[LorDC]

wizardryforever wrote...
Please, that's a complete strawman argument.  We should use our own creations instead of mooching off of the Reapers.  Besides, Mordin's countermeasure was something he came up with on his own, he didn't steal from the Reapers.

Nothing is preventing us from studying Reaper tech and doing our own research at the same time. Nothing is preventing us from developing our tech based on Reaper tech. Nothing is preventing us from making hybrid technology. So "better chances with our technology" has nothing to do keeping or destroying base.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dionkey wrote...
Cerberus has no need to hide reapers, if they engage Harbringers fleet head on they will be heiled as heroes.

Cerberus never has the potential, and to argue it suddenly does is absurd in light of both Shepard and TIM acknowledging that the Collector Base alone won't win the war.

If Cerberus alone could win the war, there would be less basis to keep the base because it would mean the Reapers were smaller and less developed than feared. You need more than tech to win, you need scale as well, and scale is what Cerberus lacks and can not get before the Reapers.

Everyone will be wanting to grab a piece of their tech.  And as soon as humans get their hands on it they wont stop. Now dont get me wrong, I don't think any other race would be different but the thing is, giving that much power to one race is too much,you simply can't do it. All it takes is one mad man and you have a whole war on your hands.

And this counteracts your fear of the first. As everyone gets their hands on the tech, Cerberus's lead diminishes.

[Barquiel]

As I said before, if there was an option to give the base to the council, I'd keep it.
a) evidence that the threat is real
every race benefits if we find something useful

But as the only option is an evil racist megalomaniac...I destroyed it. I am not saving the galaxy so TIM or Udina can turn it into a human tyranny (...and yes, that is a bad thing in my opinion).
But since EDI scanned the base's database and received all the available data on the reapers, my Shep doesn't return empty-handed.

[LorDC]

Dionkey wrote...
Well think about this, if the jewish people in WW2 were to some how over throw the axis and take control of germanies resources, you don't think they would be pretty angry? Of course, this is basic psychology. Now this is no where near the same thing and I can't compare aliens of ME to the Third Reich but you get the idea, it could be well applied to anything. When the ball is in there court, they will use it ruthlessly, simple as that.

I don't really get your point. Are you trying to say that if Humanity will overthrow Council they will inevitably commit greater atrocities than Council?

[Dionkey]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
Cerberus has no need to hide reapers, if they engage Harbringers fleet head on they will be heiled as heroes.

Cerberus never has the potential, and to argue it suddenly does is absurd in light of both Shepard and TIM acknowledging that the Collector Base alone won't win the war.

If Cerberus alone could win the war, there would be less basis to keep the base because it would mean the Reapers were smaller and less developed than feared. You need more than tech to win, you need scale as well, and scale is what Cerberus lacks and can not get before the Reapers.

Everyone will be wanting to grab a piece of their tech.  And as soon as humans get their hands on it they wont stop. Now dont get me wrong, I don't think any other race would be different but the thing is, giving that much power to one race is too much,you simply can't do it. All it takes is one mad man and you have a whole war on your hands.

And this counteracts your fear of the first. As everyone gets their hands on the tech, Cerberus's lead diminishes.

Notice the bold, sure the other aliens races may want it but its pretty absurd to think that Cereberus will give it to them over humans first. Again, for scale, all Cereberus has to do is get investors which will happen almost instantly.

[wizardryforever]

LorDC wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...
Please, that's a complete strawman argument.  We should use our own creations instead of mooching off of the Reapers.  Besides, Mordin's countermeasure was something he came up with on his own, he didn't steal from the Reapers.

Nothing is preventing us from studying Reaper tech and doing our own research at the same time. Nothing is preventing us from developing our tech based on Reaper tech. Nothing is preventing us from making hybrid technology. So "better chances with our technology" has nothing to do keeping or destroying base.

Of course, I never said otherwise.  I just stated my belief, after presenting my argument on the base.  It is related to the base in that the benefits don't necessarily outweigh the risks.  Really, the decision seems a lot like the decision to save the council or not.  If you don't, you have more resources in the short run, but potential trouble down the road.  If you do, you may have more trouble immediately, but afterward, your future is more solid.  It's all about risks vs benefits, pros vs cons.

[lovgreno]

To avoid getting stuck in the "those that oppose me are idiots" thing how about trying to give good reasons both for keeping and destroying the base? It shouldn't be hard to with some imagination and willingness to consider oppposing opinions. And besides that is what the story in the game encourages us to do if I understood it correctly. I will give it a try:



My arguments for keeping the base:

The situation is desperate, Shepard knows almost nothing about the enemy and if that information can be found anywhere it is quite likely it can be found in that base. It's time to grasp for whatever you can get and hope it does more good than harm.

If there is anything usefull there it's better that Cerberus have it than no one at all, despite whatever doubts we may have about them.

There is a small chance that the base could strenghten humanity and perhaps also other races, this is something very usefull considering the coming conflict.



My arguments for destroying it:

The possible gains from keeping it are wishull thinking at best (though as I said before the situation is quite desperate so that can be tolerated) while the threat the base is to every spiecies, especialy humans are very much real as long as it's still there.

The main concern about the base should be that it can't produce more reapers. No one, incuding Cerberus, can realy say that that base can be controlled or kept safe. If it's blown up however Shepard can be sure that it will not send more collectors to harvest human colonies.

The base was built by reapers, who always protects their secret operations with indoctrination. In the past indoctrination traps has never been discovered untill it was too late, in this Cerberus is not an exception.

Giving the base to a organisation that is seen as pro human terrorists (Cerberus and many humans have a different point of view of course but that is irrelevant to other races) may kill what little political credibility humanity have among the other major players in the galaxy. Now more than ever humanity needs strong allies so this is something that should not be risked.



Do anyone feel like trying both sides of the discussion? In any case let's not get personal with "arguments" like: "All who destroys it are naive idiots" or "Evil Cerberus and therefore you are also evil and stupid".It proves nothing and are quite immature.

[Dionkey]

LorDC wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
Well think about this, if the jewish people in WW2 were to some how over throw the axis and take control of germanies resources, you don't think they would be pretty angry? Of course, this is basic psychology. Now this is no where near the same thing and I can't compare aliens of ME to the Third Reich but you get the idea, it could be well applied to anything. When the ball is in there court, they will use it ruthlessly, simple as that.

I don't really get your point. Are you trying to say that if Humanity will overthrow Council they will inevitably commit greater atrocities than Council?

Yes, if humanity gains full control of citadel politics they will commit worse attrocites. The thing with the Alien council is that they are divided among 3 races. (4 if you went paragon and 1 if you went renegade) This makes it impossible to go after one culture. I am sure if the council was full of turians they would take away almost all the rights of humans. Same goes for humans, they would take it out on the turians and anyone who ever put a dent in there machine. This isn't a hippe human hate thing its the truth, if any race were to get this tech it would be catastrophic.

[LorDC]

Barquiel wrote...
As I said before, if there was an option to give the base to the council, I'd keep it.
a) evidence that the threat is real
every race benefits if we find something useful

a) Base will not be accepted as evidence.
Giving base to the Council will only strengthen tyranny of the Council.

Barquiel wrote...
I destroyed it. I am not saving the galaxy so TIM or Udina can turn it into a human tyranny (...and yes, that is a bad thing in my opinion).

So you human tyranny is worse than desolated galaxy?

[UNAVAILABLE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Your point revolves around that indoctrination is an undetectable form, as if that's a permanent status. Radio waves are undetectable without radio transmitters as well: study, however, can provide an understanding of what to look for. Any thing that can calculate, measure, and project a signal (like indoctrination devices) has to have a way to measure it as well. That we don't know it in ME1 doesn't mean it can't be found.

I agree, but studying such a thing can take more time than is available, especially since you don't know for sure if its there. As I said, I don't assert that these devices would be trying to indoctrinate people, simply allow the Reapers to communicate with them. Why would scientists dedicate themselves to studying a signal that they have no reason to believe is present?

Since you didn't say otherwise, I'm going to assume that you consider my scenario at least feasible. If true, then we're essentially faced with the choice of taking a gamble. We assume that we can develop counters to any potential Reaper traps, or assume we can't and take our chances on other tech avenues. Either way presents risk.

Reverse engineering, which you addressed after, goes much faster in the ME universe. The prothean data cache gave hundreds of years in a fraction of the time. The game supports the lore in this case.

Except for the studies into mass relays and the Citadel.

[LorDC]

Dionkey wrote...
Yes, if humanity gains full control of citadel politics they will commit worse attrocites. The thing with the Alien council is that they are divided among 3 races. (4 if you went paragon and 1 if you went renegade) This makes it impossible to go after one culture. I am sure if the council was full of turians they would take away almost all the rights of humans. Same goes for humans, they would take it out on the turians and anyone who ever put a dent in there machine. This isn't a hippe human hate thing its the truth, if any race were to get this tech it would be catastrophic.

Well, from what game shows to us alien Council basically acts as one. So the only difference are such "personal" racial relationships.

[Dean_the_Young]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Your point revolves around that indoctrination is an undetectable form, as if that's a permanent status. Radio waves are undetectable without radio transmitters as well: study, however, can provide an understanding of what to look for. Any thing that can calculate, measure, and project a signal (like indoctrination devices) has to have a way to measure it as well. That we don't know it in ME1 doesn't mean it can't be found.

I agree, but studying such a thing can take more time than is available, especially since you don't know for sure if its there. As I said, I don't assert that these devices would be trying to indoctrinate people, simply allow the Reapers to communicate with them. Why would scientists dedicate themselves to studying a signal that they have no reason to believe is present?

In those devices? They wouldn't. Indoctrination in general? Would you like it alphabetically or chronologically? Regardless, once you can detect indoctrination in general, such a signal would be detected as well, and it's transmiter recognized.

One thing we do know about indoctrination is that it has a range limit. Proximity is required for it to register. Working as some sort of FTL signal, nothing has suggested it can do that. And, as you admitted in-post, the Reapers can find those sites by conventional means: it's going to be hard to hide a colony world or factory world at this point.

Since you didn't say otherwise, I'm going to assume that you consider my scenario at least feasible. If true, then we're essentially faced with the choice of taking a gamble. We assume that we can develop counters to any potential Reaper traps, or assume we can't and take our chances on other tech avenues. Either way presents risk.

Let's just head that off with a 'no,' and leave it at that.

This got brought up in the last thread, so I'll mention it here and now, copying technology doesn't entail copying systems. Indoctrinations, signal devices, these have to be built in to work. While whole-scale copying might do that, building new items on your own does not, especially as you reverse engineer them.

Except for the studies into mass relays and the Citadel.

Which are said to have been designed to be made to be un-reversable in the first place. The Collector Base and its technologies, which are made to make things, rather than just be user friendly? Not the same concern.

[Ieldra]

wizardryforever wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I believe understanding is the key to the future. Unless there is a compelling reason to do so, you do not destroy knowledge. Were the Reaper threat not present, denying the base to to TIM might, or might not, be compelling enough to justify destroying it, but with the Reaper threat present, it's definitely not.
As a result of this belief, I am an avowed enemy of the notion that there are "things man was not meant to know". I do not subscribe to the notion that that knowledge can be evil.

That's the thing though, all the knowledge of the Collectors has already been extracted by EDI, when she mined their computers.  That's where the info on the datapad at the end of the game comes from.

That's pure speculation. I do use this reasoning in the one game where I destroy the base, but there is not a single line of dialogue that hints at something like this. The only evidence you have is that datapad. That's pretty flimsy. To conclude from that that you already know everything you need to know is preposterous. It also assumes everything you need to know was in the Collectors's systems, which is usually not true - for a comparison, I doubt very much you could learn how to build a nuclear bomb by downloading everything from a nuclear base's computers.