2146 réponses à ce sujet

[mosor]

Sago_mulch wrote...

this thread is an seemingly eternal war, many young naive basement dwellers risk their egos to fight for plot and e-peen. seven years later an armistice treaty will be signed, smugboy will be overwhelmed by the fanboy allies and smugboy will be nearly banned, he will only be allowed to post under the certain conditions;

-constantly praise the ME2 plotline like the many idiots on here
-gently massage david gaiders body with his bare hands
-post pictures of himself whilst naked, holding up a sign ''i love me2 plot''

smugboy will go through a deep psychological and economic crisis for several years, raging that he is unable to get a job because he is hated and reviled wherever he goes because me2 is that popular(lol). after having enough, smugboy has a massive reformation in thinking and money. he gets a job as a computer programmer and uses his new A+++ skillz to hack the biowear forums, stanley woo will be executed, david gaider will be forced to write for michael bay and seagloom will give the capslock back and many supporters like Salgo_mulch and many others(not sago_mulch, honest) will join his hack kiddie corp to wage war on ea and activision. A massive debate happens on the very forum that smugboy was humiliated on many years before however, EA and activision only just manage to beat them, smugboy kills himself rl and salgo_mulch retreats to rpgcodex. FOREVER.

over 50 mil- eh, i mean 50 ppl had their egos perma lost during this bitter, bitter and pointless debate.

Wow, quite the personal attack. The attempt at humour fell flat too. I personally find the debate fun. Most of the little details of the mass effect universe I missed were brought to light in this thread.

[Xilizhra]

I trust that he's pro-human. I do not trust that this is enough to keep the galaxy alive, or that it's at all helpful.

[Xilizhra]

The resurrection of Shepard was helpful, insofar as it restored a previously lost balance of power (returning Shepard). Creating a new balance of power within the galaxy by giving them the base would be less helpful.

[Xilizhra]

I've said this before. Giving that much power to Cerberus could provoke the Council into becoming actively antagonistic towards Shepard. Depending on how deeply Cerberus' tentacles have penetrated the sweaty orifices of the Alliance, it could lead to larger governmental issues as well. I'm giving Cerberus the opportunity here to slink back into the shadows for the greater good.

[mosor]

Xilizhra wrote...

I've said this before. Giving that much power to Cerberus could provoke the Council into becoming actively antagonistic towards Shepard. Depending on how deeply Cerberus' tentacles have penetrated the sweaty orifices of the Alliance, it could lead to larger governmental issues as well. I'm giving Cerberus the opportunity here to slink back into the shadows for the greater good.

Haha no need to worry about for me. The previous one is dead and the new one has Udina as the chairman:devil:
Regardless, when the reapers come, the alien powers will either swallow their pride and follow humanity, or become reaper chow. If cerberus having the base is the basis for them not wanting to fight, then quite frankly they deserve extinction.

[Xilizhra]

mosor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I've said this before. Giving that much power to Cerberus could provoke the Council into becoming actively antagonistic towards Shepard. Depending on how deeply Cerberus' tentacles have penetrated the sweaty orifices of the Alliance, it could lead to larger governmental issues as well. I'm giving Cerberus the opportunity here to slink back into the shadows for the greater good.

Haha no need to worry about for me. The previous one is dead and the new one has Udina as the chairman:devil:
Regardless, when the reapers come, the alien powers will either swallow their pride and follow humanity, or become reaper chow. If cerberus having the base is the basis for them not wanting to fight, then quite frankly they deserve extinction.

I'm curious; think about this question carefully. If the turians were ordering humans to get in line or go extinct during the Reaper invasion, what would you think?

How?

Cerberus and the Council are avowed enemies, and Shepard's tenure was supposed to be strictly temporary.

[Spectre_907]

mosor wrote...
1. Name 1 racist thing TIM has said or done?
2. Horizon was a trap for the collectors. Any good hunder knows that if you can't find your prey, you make your prey come to you.
3. Telling Shepard it was a trap could have tipped off the collectors.
4. What evidence do you have that TIM is genocidal?
5. Based on what evidence that you can throw the term obvious with certainty?
6. Shadow Broker info shows TIM to be a man****, who likes to sleep with asari matriachs. Some racist!
7. Why are we gonna cry over the migrant fleet? Wouldn't have happened if Sanders didn't use them as a meat shield against cerberus.
8. Traitor got what was coming.
9. Thorian creepers and rachni, are mindless. I have more sympathy monkeys getting experimented on. Even the rachni queen tells you to kill her children,.

Actually, the rachni are sapient (Codex). The rachni experimented on by Cerberus were sapient as well. "They promised this batch would be stable. Something about them developing in proximity to the master control unit." - Major Elena Flores, UNC: Depot Sigma-23

Miranda confirms this also. But everything else I agree with.

[Xilizhra]

And if the fleets have all been destroyed and the Reapers are ordering organcis into death camps because you don't have adequate weapons to fight the Reapers what would you think?

Swindled out of the cost of the game.

What does that have to do with the Collector base?

Shepard just gave Cerberus a major power boost.

[forgivingrud]

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I trust that he's pro-human. I do not trust that this is enough to keep the galaxy alive, or that it's at all helpful.

Bringing Shepard back to life and killing off the Collectors wasn't helpful at all?

I  think that TIM has proven he plans to stop the reapers. Even though I dont  like him, and he pretty much used Shepard as a tool, he did it to stop the collectors and gain an advantage on the reapers. I fully expect him to use it to help himself gain power in the future. But no matter how self-centered he might be, the reapers are a threat to his own personal goals and safety, so I trust that he plans to do anything in his power to stop them.

I know that he might even try something radical against them by using the other races, but it doesnt mean it wouldnt help stop the reapers. Dont get me wrong, im a big supporter of having a balance of power between the races with all of them living peacefully. But if being ethical and taking morally good actions caused the destruction of the galaxy (if you think about it without meta gaming), then whats the point? I would rather have a human, turian,  or asari dominated galaxy than no galaxy at all. 

Plus, Cerberus is the only faction that has actually (consciously) done anything to stop the reapers. No matter how much I love the council races, or the aliance, I would not destroy the base trusting that they supported me at some point. Because (without meta gaming), there would be a chance that they never would follow shepard and realize that the threat was real when it was too late.

What im saying is that without any other options (Shepard gives no mention of a second plan when he destroys the base), the risk that something might go wrong with keeping the base are worth it. With a threat this big, I think that the ends completely justify the means.

P.S. I played as a mostly paragon shepard (or paragade), The only renegade choices I made were to "concentrate on sovereign" and "keep the C-base".

[Arijharn]

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus also doesn't have the same issue going into the heart of the Terminus systems (Omega) as Citadel races.

That would be definitely a problem if they use the Destiny Ascension for infiltration...but I think they're smarter than that;)


As I said before, it makes no sense (imo) that Cerberus is the only organization in the whole galaxy that is able to examine the collector base.

The only race that could conceivably sneak in and study this would be Normandy class vessels which belong to the System's Alliance. And you can bet that the Illusive Man would have his men on board or be somehow connected, so in the end congratulations, you just gave the base to Cerberus anyway.

[Arijharn]

lovgreno wrote...
What it boils down to is this: Is the risks worth it? Shepard taking the the decisions on his/her own conscience is brave and heroic in it's true meaning but it doesn't change the actual effects of the decision. Take David for example: If I knew putting him into back into that machine would help more than harm I would do it and hate myself for doing that for him. The reason I didn't was that I doubted his brothers judgment in this matter considering what a mess he obviously had created. This project almost unleashed a technological plague on the galaxy, that is a risk I prefer not to take again, especialy as it was implied that more could be done even without the source of danger, David, was removed.

A bit off topic there but similar arguments can be used to keep or blow up the base.

But yeah, as Shepard can't tell the future each decision is basicaly about trying to make a fast decision in a stressed situation based on almost nothing and hope things don't go fubar, this goes for both base options too.

Of course everything is about guess work and taking blind leaps of faith, however as a military commander with a literal tonne of heavy burdens resting squarely on his shoulders, he must make rational decisions divorced from his emotions (because that's what mid level officers are expected to do). There are more immediate threats at stake here to be worrying about outlandish theories like if TIM might happen to go absolutely crazy and make human reapers etc. And the keyword is 'if' I suppose, because even if TIM did this or anything else it's inconsequential atm because you know the Reapers are coming. You have to take pre-emptive steps to defend yourself against the known threat that's coming rather than wringing your hands wondering 'well what if.'

You said it yourself though, considering that at the time you didn't really have time to do anything other than a fast decision, I think it's even worse (yet understandable) to allow emotions get in the way of your judgement (I almost typed 'better' there, but deleted it because that's just too obvious heh).

[General User]

@DPSSOC
 
Blowing the Collector base makes for such a great rallying point precisely because it is an unequivocal victory. Its uses as propaganda fall into two main categories: first, blowing the base convinces others (some, as you point out, more likely to be skeptical than others) of your good will, and second it’s a heroic story, inspiring. The “I thumbed my nose at Cerberus” angle will play well with leaders, while the “we stood as one to beat back the menace” angle should be directed mainly at the general public. Liara’s network will be absolutely critical in this era. She can put Collector exposes and positive team-Shepard profiles on every front page in Citadel space.
 
The content and spin of those stories will be critical, particularly in regards to racial issues. Image control is the best way to accomplish this. Grunt must always be shown with either Mordin or Garrus. Tali should always be shown with a human. Legion should only be shown when/if the geth get on board. Jack should not be shown at all (I like Jack, but the girl does her best work… outside public scrutiny).
 
Those are general guidelines, specifically, how I would use a destroyed Collector base to rally the galaxy would be to:
 
1.       Make a stop at the Council, I harbor little illusion that they will see the truth even when placed right in front of their eyes, but their position in the galactic hierarchy obligates me to at least make the attempt.

2.       If the Council does have a “road to Damascus” moment (not bloody likely), great, I can begin concentrating on more esoteric allies and leave organizing the Citadel races to them. 

3.       What more likely is that they will not suddenly become wise, in which case I will have to go over their heads and make my case directly to the decision makers in their home societies. 
 
Each of the Council races is unique and requires a slightly different tact.
 
4.       Samara is a justicar, her mere presence on the mission will be enough to sway many asari, who are themselves the key to swaying the rest of the Citadel races. This will most probably not be enough by itself, but the asari are governed by an open democracy. Laying all available facts out in front of the general public would have to happen anyway, might as well lead with that. Though certain influential matriarchs should be consulted first.
 
5.       I see the salarians as being the easiest to convince. Basically I think the STG is simply too smart not to know the truth when it is dropped in their laps (I admit my evidence in this regard is somewhat spotty). They already have STG units investigating (whether they realize it or not) the Collectors. Having a sit down with those officers would be most productive…
 
 
6.       The “turians” are actually quite similar to the salarians, they aren’t stupid, the incredible levels of self delusion one particular Council member seems to be capable of notwithstanding. Given the extent of the successes the” turians” have had in reverse-engineering “Reaper” technology there MUST be at least some members of the “Hierarchy” who have enough of a head on their shoulders to see the truth. It seems these members are in the minority right now. Swaying the “turians” will involve empowering those more rational members of the senior “Hierarchy”. 

Given the “turian” character of respect for authority and tradition of social and civil order, it will be critical that Shepard not be seen as disruptive or destabilizing any more than is avoidable. Blowing the base will be helpful in this regard. Empowering a terrorist organization that came into being as a direct result of human contact with the “turians” would be most counter-productive…
 
7.       I see the Alliance as being the most difficult nut to crack, getting them onboard may require some pretty extreme tactics, and it is here that the blown CB will be least effective when used to convince others of your good will. Ideally bringing the Alliance on will be something of a mix between the tactics used to convince the asari, and the turians, consulting with leaders and those of your allies already in power, while at the same time making a case to the general public (a major PR firm will be helpful in this regard). Cerberus penetration of the human political and military establishments will be useful; such support must be used rarely and kept as quiet as possible, lest word of it get back to the other races. 


Should Alliance political leaders not prove receptive more extreme action will be necessary. Earth and Arcturus are not the end all and be all of humanity. Depending on the origin/career of your Shepard, there are several human colonies in Citadel and Terminus space who could be recruited individually (Terra Nova, Mindoir, Akuze, Watson, Horizon, etc.). The real danger of this plan is that it risks fracturing/destroying the Alliance (something I’ll personally shed no tears over). This is TIMs time to shine. He is as much of an asset in the Alliance as he is a liability in the rest of the galaxy. If the worst does come to worse he may well be the only man who can hold off a human civil war.
 
As for the other races, geth, quarians, batarians, rachni, etc. They’ll all have their own issues, the general guidelines I started this post with will have to be adjusted to varying degrees, but in every instance, destroying the base will be looked favorably upon to one extent or another.

[Flamewielder]

I blew up the base because, as a paragon, I believe in virtue ethics over consequentialism. So far, Cerberus has demonstrated they will balk at nothing to achieve their goals. Their people have as little regard for individuals ar Reapers do: that's why Reapers believe they do us a service by pulping us into their idea of the pinnacle of human evolution. As a paragon Shepard, handing Cerberus the base was unacceptable. Respect for individual life is what sets us apart from the Reapers, I'm not about to prove we're just as bad as them by handing over the base to people who will have no compuction about sacrificing 99% of humans if they can ultimately save 1% and destroy the Reapers, calling it a great victory...

Ethics aside, I hardly consider Shepard's successful ressurection a typical example of cerberus scientific success. At least, in Shepard's case, he was the only test subject and likely doesn't mind it... Feeding Alliance marines to thresher maws, project Overlord, dead reaper investigation, Teltin... the list goes on. The list of failures is longer than their few successes and I shiver at what the consequences of a screw-up with the base would have involved.

Finally, any technology derived from the Reapers will follow along the lines set by them, as Sovereign stated. Collector tech is no exception. Such technology will be more advanced than the current galactic ones but Reapers will likely have countermeasures for anything they use. People assume that understanding collector tech will give us an edge against the reapers: what if it turns out to be a red herring and we end up chasing after tech Reapers already have countermeasures for? My money is on original research, not collector tech.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 02 octobre 2010 - 02:05 .

[Spectre_907]

smudboy wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

Even though the base should be studied and it may be the key to defeating the Reapers, it's still wrong.

How is there anything inherently wrong or right about it?  That's like saying a gun is wrong.

Sorry. Wrong to give it to Cerberus. The base is not wrong or right in itself.

Fighting to save all life in the galaxy while working with a group who wishes to only save one type of life and giving them the means to do it is wrong. But the base is too valuable to simply destroy.

[Inverness Moon]

General User wrote...

@DPSSOC
 
Blowing the Collector base makes for such a great rallying point precisely because it is an unequivocal victory. Its uses as propaganda fall into two main categories: first, blowing the base convinces others (some, as you point out, more likely to be skeptical than others) of your good will, and second it’s a heroic story, inspiring. The “I thumbed my nose at Cerberus” angle will play well with leaders, while the “we stood as one to beat back the menace” angle should be directed mainly at the general public.

Good will isn't going to save the galaxy from the reapers. it doesn't matter how much people approve of Shepard's decision or how much they rally around him. The Citadel and Fifth fleets couldn't even scratch a single reaper. All the combat ships in the galaxy wont make a difference at this point unless they get some drastic improvements in offensive technology. The collector base could possibly provide the edge, whether that be technology or intelligence, needed to end the threat of the reapers. My Shepard knows this, which is why she isn't going to destroy the base. She'll save the galaxy from the reapers whether they like her or not.

Flamewielder wrote...

I blew up the base because, as a paragon, I believe in virtue ethics over consequentialism. So far, Cerberus has demonstrated they will balk at nothing to achieve their goals. Their people have as little regard for individuals ar Reapers do: that's why Reapers believe they do us a service by pulping us into their idea of the pinnacle of human evolution. As a paragon Shepard, handing Cerberus the base was unacceptable. Respect for individual life is what sets us apart from the Reapers, I'm not about to prove we're just as bad as them by handing over the base to people who will have no compuction about sacrificing 99% of humans if they can ultimately save 1% and destroy the Reapers, calling it a great victory...

Ethics aside, I hardly consider Shepard's successful ressurection a typical example of cerberus scientific success. At least, in Shepard's case, he was the only test subject and likely doesn't mind it... Feeding Alliance marines to thresher maws, project Overlord, dead reaper investigation, Teltin... the list goes on. The list of failures is longer than their few successes and I shiver at what the consequences of a screw-up with the base would have involved.

Finally, any technology derived from the Reapers will follow along the lines set by them, as Sovereign stated. Collector tech is no exception. Such technology will be more advanced than the current galactic ones but Reapers will likely have countermeasures for anything they use. People assume that understanding collector tech will give us an edge against the reapers: what if it turns out to be a red herring and we end up chasing after tech Reapers already have countermeasures for? My money is on original research, not collector tech.

I think you're highly unrealistically exaggerating what Cerberus would do with the base. However, if faced with the choice of saving 0% of 1% of the galaxy, I'd prefer that choice be placed in the hands of someone with the balls to make it.

Failures are to be expected when you're doing what Cerberus does. What they do is high risk and even higher reward. Bringing Shepard back from the dead and giving him the Normandy SR2 alone outweigh all the failures they've had. Because it is Cerberus's initiative that will give Shepard the ability to save the galaxy.

On the note of technology, blanket statements like that don't work. I've seen people say so many times that saving the base is doing what the reapers want. It's a massive generalization that shows a lack of thought about what Sovereign actually meant and what it means for our fight against the reapers. The reapers use immensely powerful kinetic barriers. If we use the technology found in the collector base to create new mass effect cores and upgrade weapons to be powerful enough to penetrate the kinetic barriers of a reaper, are you suggesting that is what they want? This is a ridiculous suggestion to me, and a simple example of why you can't make a generalization about what technology the reapers want you to use.

The mass relays and Citadel exist to influence galactic society to depend on them for FTL travel and centralize their government on the Citadel. By depending on mass effect technology for travel and weapons, the reapers can cripple the galactic infrastructure by taking over the Citadel and preventing travel across the galaxy. Because the government is centered on the Citadel, the reapers will have all the information they need to hunt everyone down. Also, by influencing people to use mass effect technology for offensive and defense, the reapers can monitor the galaxy and know when to invade before that technology reaches the level necessary to compete with them.

This does NOT mean that us developing mass effect technology equal to their own is part of their plan. The whole technology thing goes both ways. The mass effect technology is theirs, we know they use kinetic barriers for defense, that means we just need a big enough gun to destroy them, it doesn't matter how we get that big gun as long as we do. The derelict reaper is a perfect example of this.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 02 octobre 2010 - 02:40 .

[mosor]

Spectre_907 wrote...

Actually, the rachni are sapient (Codex). The rachni experimented on by Cerberus were sapient as well. "They promised this batch would be stable. Something about them developing in proximity to the master control unit." - Major Elena Flores, UNC: Depot Sigma-23

Miranda confirms this also. But everything else I agree with.

Without the Rachni Queen to guide them, they end up crazied. They're pretty mindless in that state. That's why the queen urges you to kill them in the first game. Sure cerberus tried to stabilize them but they simply didn't know their physiology enough to make it work.

Modifié par mosor, 02 octobre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Spectre_907]

mosor wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

Actually, the rachni are sapient (Codex). The rachni experimented on by Cerberus were sapient as well. "They promised this batch would be stable. Something about them developing in proximity to the master control unit." - Major Elena Flores, UNC: Depot Sigma-23

Miranda confirms this also. But everything else I agree with.

You're forgetting that without the Rachni Queen to guide them, they end up crazied. They're pretty mindless in that state. That's why the queen urges you to kill them in the first game.

Right. But the queen mentions that it is in the development within the eggs in proximity to the queens that they develop sapience. Once hatched, they can "sing" on their own.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 02 octobre 2010 - 03:40 .

[mosor]

Spectre_907 wrote...

mosor wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

Actually, the rachni are sapient (Codex). The rachni experimented on by Cerberus were sapient as well. "They promised this batch would be stable. Something about them developing in proximity to the master control unit." - Major Elena Flores, UNC: Depot Sigma-23

Miranda confirms this also. But everything else I agree with.

You're forgetting that without the Rachni Queen to guide them, they end up crazied. They're pretty mindless in that state. That's why the queen urges you to kill them in the first game.

Right. But the queen mentions that it is in the development within the eggs in proximity to the queens that they develop sapience. Once hatched, they can "sing" on their own.

Who knows what exactly cerberus did, or if they even did it the proper way. They had little to reference in regard to raising rachni. All I know are the ones we fight in N7 missions are pretty damn crazed and try to kill anyone they make contact with.

Modifié par mosor, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:00 .

[tommyt_1994]

forgivingrud wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I trust that he's pro-human. I do not trust that this is enough to keep the galaxy alive, or that it's at all helpful.

Bringing Shepard back to life and killing off the Collectors wasn't helpful at all?

I  think that TIM has proven he plans to stop the reapers. Even though I dont  like him, and he pretty much used Shepard as a tool, he did it to stop the collectors and gain an advantage on the reapers. I fully expect him to use it to help himself gain power in the future. But no matter how self-centered he might be, the reapers are a threat to his own personal goals and safety, so I trust that he plans to do anything in his power to stop them.

I know that he might even try something radical against them by using the other races, but it doesnt mean it wouldnt help stop the reapers. Dont get me wrong, im a big supporter of having a balance of power between the races with all of them living peacefully. But if being ethical and taking morally good actions caused the destruction of the galaxy (if you think about it without meta gaming), then whats the point? I would rather have a human, turian,  or asari dominated galaxy than no galaxy at all. 

Plus, Cerberus is the only faction that has actually (consciously) done anything to stop the reapers. No matter how much I love the council races, or the aliance, I would not destroy the base trusting that they supported me at some point. Because (without meta gaming), there would be a chance that they never would follow shepard and realize that the threat was real when it was too late.

What im saying is that without any other options (Shepard gives no mention of a second plan when he destroys the base), the risk that something might go wrong with keeping the base are worth it. With a threat this big, I think that the ends completely justify the means.

P.S. I played as a mostly paragon shepard (or paragade), The only renegade choices I made were to "concentrate on sovereign" and "keep the C-base".

You pretty much just summed up why I keep the base, minues a few other reasons. For the most part my Shepard is a paragon, but I don't meta-game. Destroying the base because you hope the council will "pull their heads outta their butt-puckers" (I seriously love that line) is wishful thinking at best. Cerberus is the only group who is currently fighting the reaper threat, to Shep's knowledge, and ditching your only ally isn't a smart move (especially considering Cerberus has proven the can get things done)

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:07 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I also don't meta-game. I play through making decisions I would actually make. Capturing the base is a better tactical victory. Destroying it is spontanious moral victory (and in some ways, more neglectfull of the lives lost there).

I still think that Cerberus, though not a saint, is overexaggerated regarding how evil they are.

TIM NEVER specifies how something should be done. He gives an objective and his cells are expected to carry it out. TIM always provides the resources and checks on its progress (to which he can be fed false information or none at all), but that so far been the extent of his power. While bad things have happened under the Cerberus banner, there's no telling how much of that is TIM's fault... the cells have too much freedom and to be fair, TIM can't enforce any more control or restrictions without compromising himself.

Also, past it all, if TIM ever did something crazy... Shepard would soon discover it and confront/kill TIMMY.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:43 .