2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

One more thing, regarding some's arguement that Shepard recieves Reaper intel at the end of ME2 before looking out at the stars, a further look reveals that it's something a bit worse:
 

A scan out into dark space has returned actual photos of the Reapers.  They've been literally found, they're that close.

[tommyt_1994]

^Yeah we're boned. I wonder if Bioware threw that in there to see if people would acutally notice it or if it's an overhsight.

[Phaedon]

  [quote]smudboy wrote...

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

He is an extremist. A racist.
[/quote]
I have no doubt that TIM takes extreme measures.  Those measures pay off.  In fact, he may be just the only type of guy who can stop the Reapers.
[/quote]
How do they pay off ? You mean the Cerberus operations ? (90% of which fails apparently)

[quote]

But regardless, show me an example where TIM is a racist.
[/quote]
Already did, 9 posts before your post.

[quote][quote]
He set up the attack on Horizon.
[/quote]
This has been debated to death.  It is a GOOD THING he did this.  Also he did not set it up, he lured the Collectors there by tipping off that the VS would be there.
[/quote]
So, he sacrificed a human colony, (could have) sacrificed the VS and lied to Shepard ? I get why you think it's OK, but who made him god all of a sudden ? Moral, Practical or not, you have no right to decide for the fate of thousands. 

[quote][quote]
TIM forgot to mention 'IT'S A TRAP' when Shepard checked the collector ship.
[/quote]
Also debated to death.  It is a GOOD THING he did this.  I don't personally agree with it, but it turned out for the better.
[/quote]
How has this been debated to death and how is this is a good thing ?

[quote][quote]
He mentions 'for the Reapers and beyond' when trying to convince you to keep the base. Turians are too badass for me to allow a genocidal extremist to keep the base.
[*]I think it's obvious that none of the Cerberus bases in ME1 and ME2 went rogue.
[/list][/quote]
Then Cerberus is still part of the Alliance.
[/quote][*]No, then it simply means that TIM is being illusive...again. 
[quote][quote]
SB's info.
[/quote]
Please be specific.[*][/quote][*]15th/16th page.

[quote][quote]
Attacking the Migrant Fleet.
[/quote]
Subjective.[/quote][*]Factual. 

[quote][quote]
Killing Kahoku.
[/quote]
Killing a traitor?[*][/quote][*]Killing a father of 3, and an Alliance Admiral.

[quote][quote]
Experimenting on asari, rachni and thorian creepers.
[/quote]
None of which are ethically gray, hurt, or killed anyone.[*][/quote][*]The rachni and thorian creepers experiments are quite ethically gray, and the asari and Akuze experiments definitely involved hurting people.

[quote][quote]
It doesn't make them any more unethical. You may say that 'Heck, the Reapers are after us, why should we care about ethics ?'. Because simply, he wouldn't use any of these means to defeat the Reapers. He wants to use them against the turians, the salarians or the asari. So it's not just unethical. It kind of my reminded me of the typical 'We're freedom fighters !' argument, imo.[/quote]
Exactly what is unethical?  Experimenting on dead bodies?  Experimenting on mindless drones?  Then, discovering rachni were intelligent, then stopping their experiments?  If they were unethical, they would've kept experimenting on the rachni.  But they didn't.[/quote][*]They only gave up on the rachni, because they were terrified by their intelligence. And wait, you don't think that experimenting on cadavers and well, controlled cadavers isn't unethical ?[*]
[*][quote]
Hmm.

Now that's not to say all Cerberus cells are ethical.  We know they're not.  But we're talking about TIM here.  TIM is not a morally gray character: the narrative is quite clear about this.[/quote][*]Indeed, you can support that TIM didn't directly lead any of these projects, but I have to disagree. EDI stated clearly that TIM only wanted a couple of operations being run on the same time so that he could supervise them extensively. What makes you think that he wasn't well aware of everything going on ?
[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote]Blame the Alliance.[/quote][*]?

[quote][quote]
Supplemental Info:
[/quote]
All irrelevant.  Stick to the games.[/quote][*]It depends on what you are trying to prove is. Are we trying to explain why our Sheps destroyed/saved the Collector base, or if it is right or wrong ?

[quote][quote]
There is enough evidence for some someone not to trust Cerberus or TIMmy. Hell, anyone with basic education should be cautious when dealing with a  man of extremist beliefs.
[/quote]
Trust is irrelevant toward TIM.   TIM, and Cerberus, trust Shepard.[*][/quote][*]What's your point ? Throughout the whole game, you can only betray Cerberus after TIM mentions the 'and...beyond' quote.

[quote][quote]
My theory is that she understood that everything Cerberus was wrong and well, lies. We'll have to wait for ME3 for that, though.
[/quote]
Speculation.  She wouldn't have lied to us about them.[/quote][*]Did I say that she lied to us ? I just said that she just used the same arguments to convince both Shepard and herself that Cerberus's cause is alright. She didn't resign from Cerberus because she just disagreed with TIM on the collector base issue.

[quote][quote]From: Cerberus Intel

Commander Shepard,

Contacting you per Illusive Man's instructions. He believed you would want to know that he had ordered Subject Zero's project shut down before the riot broke out. Cerberus personnel arrived to find all guards dead, along with most of the subjects. Any surviving children were treated for injuries, given mild amnesic treatments, and delivered to Alliance facilities as survivors of slaver attacks. A few surviving doctors were forcibly retired for their role in the project.

Per your report, the facility on Pragia has been destroyed.[/quote]
Man's a goddamned hero.[/quote][*]Are you being ironic ?  At best, he is a really really bad leader.[*]OK TIM, so you thought that the Pragia project was rather suspicious, so you sent a team to destroy the base. Oh damn, a riot has already started. What a shame. Apparently, the riot has ended and we are still not there. Yay ! We are here ! How unfortunate that we missed the party for a few hours, tho. [/quote]

[quote][quote]
Are you saying that there is no evidence in ME2/ME1, or in general ?
[/quote]
There is none.  The narrative told us the EXACT OPPOSITE in regards to Pragia and Overlord.[/quote][*]So, your answer is that you believe that there is no evidence in the game or otherwise, right ? 

[Phaedon]

mosor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I've said this before. Giving that much power to Cerberus could provoke the Council into becoming actively antagonistic towards Shepard. Depending on how deeply Cerberus' tentacles have penetrated the sweaty orifices of the Alliance, it could lead to larger governmental issues as well. I'm giving Cerberus the opportunity here to slink back into the shadows for the greater good.

Haha no need to worry about for me. The previous one is dead and the new one has Udina as the chairman
Regardless, when the reapers come, the alien powers will either swallow their pride and follow humanity, or become reaper chow. If cerberus having the base is the basis for them not wanting to fight, then quite frankly they deserve extinction.

. Do you happen to be TIM btw ? 

[Babli]

If you get a look at the SB dossiers, you find out that TIM isnt racist...at least he has nothing against some asari love

[Barquiel]

mosor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I've said this before. Giving that much power to Cerberus could provoke the Council into becoming actively antagonistic towards Shepard. Depending on how deeply Cerberus' tentacles have penetrated the sweaty orifices of the Alliance, it could lead to larger governmental issues as well. I'm giving Cerberus the opportunity here to slink back into the shadows for the greater good.

Haha no need to worry about for me. The previous one is dead and the new one has Udina as the chairman

Are you sure that's a good thing? At least my council talked to me:P

[Fixers0]

Please everyone. this is not a place to debate between the people  who think that Ceberus and TIM have done horrible things and those who are defending him .

As i said before, I don't  trust TIM and his organisation enough to give him a base with dangerous technology, and i have enough reasons to believe it's true. that said i won't argue with people about TIM and Cerberus anymore.

[Lady1Aph]

to give TIM just alittle defence, i would say that the Alliance isent the do gooders they claim to be. The proff is in the data u collect at Kasumi´s mission. Only bad thing is we dont know what the Alliance has done other than its something bad. So in light of that info i dont think TIM is worse that the alliance. Hell they probely done the same things without us knowing it.

Modifié par Lady1Aph, 02 octobre 2010 - 12:06 .

[Bad King]

Lady1Aph wrote...

to give TIM just alittle defence, i would say that the Alliance isent the do gooders they claim to be. The proff is in the data u collect at Kasumi´s mission. Only bad thing is we dont know what the Alliance has done other than its something bad. So in light of that info i dont think TIM is worse that the alliance. Hell they probely done the same things without us knowing it.

The Alliance have also on occasions been somewhat corrupt; for example they funded criminals like Darius with weapons and resources so that he could help counter the Batarians, but then, as soon as they realise how much eezo was in the area that Darius controlled, they sent Shepard to kill him.

[Lady1Aph]

Bad King wrote...

Lady1Aph wrote...

to give TIM just alittle defence, i would say that the Alliance isent the do gooders they claim to be. The proff is in the data u collect at Kasumi´s mission. Only bad thing is we dont know what the Alliance has done other than its something bad. So in light of that info i dont think TIM is worse that the alliance. Hell they probely done the same things without us knowing it.

The Alliance have also on occasions been somewhat corrupt; for example they funded criminals like Darius with weapons and resources so that he could help counter the Batarians, but then, as soon as they realise how much eezo was in the area that Darius controlled, they sent Shepard to kill him.

So true hell atleast TIM is honest about what he is doing. It basicly comes down to whom u trust. the alliance or TIM. well i must say if i had to chose i would probely trust TIM more than the alliance since he isent the one who keeps smacking a door in my face

[smudboy]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...
How do they pay off ? You mean the Cerberus operations ? (90% of which fails apparently)
[/quote]
ME2 paid off: EDI, Normandy, Lazarus, Collector Base (OH WAIT.)

[quote]
Already did, 9 posts before your post.
[/quote]
Yeah try that again please.  I'm not hunting through this thread.

[quote]
So, he sacrificed a human colony, (could have) sacrificed the VS and lied to Shepard ? I get why you think it's OK, but who made him god all of a sudden ? Moral, Practical or not, you have no right to decide for the fate of thousands. 
[/quote]
He didn't sacrifice anyone.  He saved the colony, or what he could, which is better than anyone else, especially the Alliance.

Geez.  I may not like TIM by much, but even you have to see that manipulating the enemy via information is a good step.  And you're complaining he sacrificed a colony.

[quote]
How has this been debated to death and how is this is a good thing ?
[/quote]
It has.

Because Shepard could've tipped off the Collectors in any number of ways.

Because they weren't expecting EDI.

I'm not a fan of being lied to either, but it paid off.

[quote]No, then it simply means that TIM is being illusive...again. 
[/quote]
So what's your point?


[quote]15th/16th page.[/quote]
Either write it down or link to it, or stop arguing.  I'm not bothering to hunt down some obscure idea of yours.

[quote]Factual.[/quote]
Not according to Miranda.  That scene plays out a few ways with Tali.  It is subjective.

[quote]
Killing a traitor? Killing a father of 3, and an Alliance Admiral.[/quote]
Still a traitor.

[quote]
The rachni and thorian creepers experiments are quite ethically gray, and the asari and Akuze experiments definitely involved hurting people.
[/quote]
They're only ethically gray if the ones conducting the experiments KEEP conducting the experiments after learning the rachni were sentient.  Experimenting on creepers (mindless) or husks (already dead) is not a morally gray quandry.  You'd find just as many morally gray issues in a medical lab with cadavers and mice.

[quote]
They only gave up on the rachni, because they were terrified by their intelligence. And wait, you don't think that experimenting on cadavers and well, controlled cadavers isn't unethical ?
[/quote]
I don't recall them being terrified by their intelligence.  There is only mention of them stopping their experiments.

Experimenting on cadavers is not unethical.  Seriously, go to your local university and ask for the tour of their labs and morgue.  This is not a morally gray area.

[quote]
Indeed, you can support that TIM didn't directly lead any of these projects, but I have to disagree. EDI stated clearly that TIM only wanted a couple of operations being run on the same time so that he could supervise them extensively. What makes you think that he wasn't well aware of everything going on ?
[/quote]
Play Pragia and pay attention to all the video logs.  I think the second one clearly states this.  In Overlord, the only one who knows what's going on is Archer.

Just because he's overseeing them all doesn't mean he has all the data on what's going on.[/quote]
[/quote]

[quote]
It depends on what you are trying to prove is. Are we trying to explain why our Sheps destroyed/saved the Collector base, or if it is right or wrong ?
[/quote]
No it doesn't matter what you're trying to prove!

Supplementary material is completely irrelevant for completely obvious reasons.  I don't start quoting the Bible and believe Shepard is Jesus and thus he Must Save All, or some bull.  Stick to the actual content.

[quote]
What's your point ? Throughout the whole game, you can only betray Cerberus after TIM mentions the 'and...beyond' quote.
[/quote]
The point is TIM and Cerberus trust Shepard big time.  Ones opinion of TIM is irrelevant in every sense of the word.

[quote]
Did I say that she lied to us ? I just said that she just used the same arguments to convince both Shepard and herself that Cerberus's cause is alright. She didn't resign from Cerberus because she just disagreed with TIM on the collector base issue.
[/quote]
So if she didn't lie, then what's the big issue?  Cerberus gets things done.  They do things no one else can.  Like stopping the Collectors and the Reapers.  This is a good thing.

[quote]
Are you being ironic ?  At best, he is a really really bad leader.OK TIM, so you thought that the Pragia project was rather suspicious, so you sent a team to destroy the base. Oh damn, a riot has already started. What a shame. Apparently, the riot has ended and we are still not there. Yay ! We are here ! How unfortunate that we missed the party for a few hours, tho. [/quote]
TIM was clearly not responsible for the events of Pragia.  He did his best after it went violent.

[quote]
So, your answer is that you believe that there is no evidence in the game or otherwise, right ? [/quote]
Exactly.  If there was, I'd have something to work with.  I, too, thought TIM would've been a morally gray and potentially evil character, but he never comes across as that.  He's just some guy, doing the best he can in a certain situation for intended results, and ME2 has shown us that those results pay off.  Which seems all the more reason why we'd want his help.

The Base issue has almost nothing to do with TIM and his agenda.  It's about the Reapers.  As soon as one puts their bias or opinion of TIM or Cerberus in question, all this bullsh*t about Human Dominance gets in the way of the real issue: stopping the bad guys.

[Arijharn]

I admit, I'm not very clued up in law for situations like this, but isn't cadaver research at your local university only ethical because someone gave the university permission such as a loved one, or the person itself via a will? I strongly doubt that an university can just demand cadavers at least, and I doubt that in usual circumstances the government could either unless they thought the body represented some sort of risk (like a highly communicable disease).

[Dean_the_Young]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

One more thing, regarding some's arguement that Shepard recieves Reaper intel at the end of ME2 before looking out at the stars, a further look reveals that it's something a bit worse:
 

A scan out into dark space has returned actual photos of the Reapers.  They've been literally found, they're that close.

...what on earth says that that is the result of a scan from darkspace?

[smudboy]

Arijharn wrote...

I admit, I'm not very clued up in law for situations like this, but isn't cadaver research at your local university only ethical because someone gave the university permission such as a loved one, or the person itself via a will? I strongly doubt that an university can just demand cadavers at least, and I doubt that in usual circumstances the government could either unless they thought the body represented some sort of risk (like a highly communicable disease).

Okay.

Who has ownership rights toward a Thorian Creeper?  How about a husk?

It's the equivalent of testing a lab mouse, but that lab mouse wants to hack away at you with their arms.

[Arijharn]

smudboy wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I admit, I'm not very clued up in law for situations like this, but isn't cadaver research at your local university only ethical because someone gave the university permission such as a loved one, or the person itself via a will? I strongly doubt that an university can just demand cadavers at least, and I doubt that in usual circumstances the government could either unless they thought the body represented some sort of risk (like a highly communicable disease).

Okay.

Who has ownership rights toward a Thorian Creeper?  How about a husk?

It's the equivalent of testing a lab mouse, but that lab mouse wants to hack away at you with their arms.

Honestly? I just saw the word cadaver thrown around (I admit, I wasn't really following your debate) and interjected in case I thought you were misrepresenting the facts.

I agree though, there are no ethical considerations with Thorian Creeper's, but technically and very tenuously  you could argue that the husk had to belong to someone in the first place who still died. However, personally considering what's at stake I don't think you have the luxury of playing nice and I would do it regardless. I would be better for the persons loved ones to get a miscellaneous report listing a generic: 'KIA' rather than giving them the gritty details like: "This man became a cybernetic zombie. I'm so sorry."

[Sago_mulch]

mosor wrote...

Sago_mulch wrote...

this thread is an seemingly eternal war, many young naive basement dwellers risk their egos to fight for plot and e-peen. seven years later an armistice treaty will be signed, smugboy will be overwhelmed by the fanboy allies and smugboy will be nearly banned, he will only be allowed to post under the certain conditions;

-constantly praise the ME2 plotline like the many idiots on here
-gently massage david gaiders body with his bare hands
-post pictures of himself whilst naked, holding up a sign ''i love me2 plot''

smugboy will go through a deep psychological and economic crisis for several years, raging that he is unable to get a job because he is hated and reviled wherever he goes because me2 is that popular(lol). after having enough, smugboy has a massive reformation in thinking and money. he gets a job as a computer programmer and uses his new A+++ skillz to hack the biowear forums, stanley woo will be executed, david gaider will be forced to write for michael bay and seagloom will give the capslock back and many supporters like Salgo_mulch and many others(not sago_mulch, honest) will join his hack kiddie corp to wage war on ea and activision. A massive debate happens on the very forum that smugboy was humiliated on many years before however, EA and activision only just manage to beat them, smugboy kills himself rl and salgo_mulch retreats to rpgcodex. FOREVER.

over 50 mil- eh, i mean 50 ppl had their egos perma lost during this bitter, bitter and pointless debate.

Wow, quite the personal attack. The attempt at humour fell flat too. I personally find the debate fun. Most of the little details of the mass effect universe I missed were brought to light in this thread.

this debate and your mom fell flat. i was chronicling the epic debate between fanboys and smugboy, if you dfon't like history then perhaps you should kill yourself, no really, do it. DO IT.

perhaps you should be in politics, you get paid to debate with everybody disagreeing with you.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ignore her, people. Don't react, and move on.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 octobre 2010 - 02:10 .

[DPSSOC]

General User wrote...

@DPSSOC
 
Blowing the Collector base makes for such a great rallying point precisely because it is an unequivocal victory. Its uses as propaganda fall into two main categories: first, blowing the base convinces others (some, as you point out, more likely to be skeptical than others) of your good will, and second it’s a heroic story, inspiring. The “I thumbed my nose at Cerberus” angle will play well with leaders, while the “we stood as one to beat back the menace” angle should be directed mainly at the general public. Liara’s network will be absolutely critical in this era. She can put Collector exposes and positive team-Shepard profiles on every front page in Citadel space.

Ok I see what you're getting at but I would also view conquering the Collector Base vs destroying it as an equally unequivocal victory.  Though then I suppose you'd have a harder time convincing the Council et all that Cerberus is willing to play nice (if indeed they are).
 
As for your list it makes sense and I guess I can agree with your ideas (in theory).  I still disagree with destroying the Collector base because your plan still depends on people not being complete and utter morons and I'm just not capable of that giant a leap of faith given what we've seen of ME people and politics.  So while I understand I must respectfully disagree and keep my knife pressed firmly to the galaxy's throat.  It may not be as clean but in my experience it's more efficient to motivate through fear than understanding.

[Arijharn]

Dean, would you rather:

a) Give the Collector Base to the Council

Give the Collector Base to Cerberus

and why?

[Sago_mulch]

give collector base to tim

blow it up



both result in a debate



which is better and why, personally blowing up the base is p.cool becaiuse i like splosions beause i am a sheeple.

[hamtyl07]

i always get csecond thoughts about this but i usally save the base anyway i figure that with the tech aboard that base you may be able to one up the reapers you have access to thier tech why not save it with their tech and liara i dont see why you would want to destroy the base but this all my opinion and people may say ohter otherwise, but i simply look at it like why jut waste a potentialy vaulabe resoruce the collectors have tech that no one else has, so to me it seems to make sense to save it where as if you destroy the base you may end up flying blind into a battle, sure you would have liara but thats only so good. having both the base and liara may help you grately come the final battle

[Sago_mulch]

smudboy wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I admit, I'm not very clued up in law for situations like this, but isn't cadaver research at your local university only ethical because someone gave the university permission such as a loved one, or the person itself via a will? I strongly doubt that an university can just demand cadavers at least, and I doubt that in usual circumstances the government could either unless they thought the body represented some sort of risk (like a highly communicable disease).

Okay.

Who has ownership rights toward a Thorian Creeper?  How about a husk?

It's the equivalent of testing a lab mouse, but that lab mouse wants to hack away at you with their arms.

And vomits on you too, no really.

[Dean_the_Young]

Arijharn wrote...

Dean, would you rather:
a) Give the Collector Base to the Council
Give the Collector Base to Cerberus
and why?

The Council.

And I'm not just saying that because it's all human.

Seriously, though, the Council, even the Paragon one. Keeping the Base has always been in the interest of saving the galaxy, and the more utility from the base the better. Everyone having access to the base reduces the risks of over-power by anyone (though it certainly increased the risk for overall abuse of the tech). And while I don't necessarily like the Council's other actors, or trust them to be just with humanity, their new nominal equal, Humanity is a part of the Council itself, and a rising tide lifts all boats, and even without nigh-exclusive gains humanity and the galaxy still come out better overall.


Barring that option, though (and I accept the reasons why I wasn't offered), Cerberus is a distant second.