2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Shandepared wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Dean, would you rather:
a) Give the Collector Base to the Council
Give the Collector Base to Cerberus
and why?

I have a similar question I posed in another thread a week or so back. This one is mainly directed at we "renegades".

Would you still save the Collector base if instead of giving it to a human supremacist organization you were giving it to an alien one? Say a turian special forces group were the ones to bring you back and go after the Collectors.

Even the Turians.

Likely even the Batarians.

Not the Krogans, though, because until they demonstrate foresight and self-control, I have no doubt they'd start a war right now.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 octobre 2010 - 02:49 .

[Xilizhra]

Would you still save the Collector base if instead of giving it to a human supremacist organization you were giving it to an alien one? Say a turian special forces group were the ones to bring you back and go after the Collectors.

Well, a turian group would at least have government oversight and would likely share the base's secrets with the rest of the Council, so I'd share the base in that case.

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...

Dean, would you rather:
a) Give the Collector Base to the Council
Give the Collector Base to Cerberus
and why?

If I may add my own answer:

If I had the choice, I'd give it to the Council. The important thing is that the base is preserved for research, and that as many competent - and careful - scientists as possible have access to it. In the face of the Reaper threat, it doesn't matter who does it, it only matters that it's done.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 octobre 2010 - 03:06 .

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Would you still save the Collector base if instead of giving it to a human supremacist organization you were giving it to an alien one? Say a turian special forces group were the ones to bring you back and go after the Collectors.

Well, a turian group would at least have government oversight and would likely share the base's secrets with the rest of the Council, so I'd share the base in that case.

I'd give them the base rather than destroy it, yes, but do you really think they'd share if they thought they could do it alone? That's naive. Maybe they would in the face of the greater threat, but I wouldn't count on it.

[Xilizhra]

I'd give them the base rather than destroy it, yes, but do you really think they'd share if they thought they could do it alone? That's naive. Maybe they would in the face of the greater threat, but I wouldn't count on it.

Yes. Turian culture is extremely duty-bound, and as soon as the Reaper threat became real, I have no doubt that they'd distribute this stuff to their allies.

[smudboy]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Dean, would you rather:
a) Give the Collector Base to the Council
Give the Collector Base to Cerberus
and why?

The Council.

And I'm not just saying that because it's all human.

Seriously, though, the Council, even the Paragon one. Keeping the Base has always been in the interest of saving the galaxy, and the more utility from the base the better. Everyone having access to the base reduces the risks of over-power by anyone (though it certainly increased the risk for overall abuse of the tech). And while I don't necessarily like the Council's other actors, or trust them to be just with humanity, their new nominal equal, Humanity is a part of the Council itself, and a rising tide lifts all boats, and even without nigh-exclusive gains humanity and the galaxy still come out better overall.


Barring that option, though (and I accept the reasons why I wasn't offered), Cerberus is a distant second.

That's a good take.  The Council has a more multiracial slant (then again, so does the SR2.)  Since we can look at Ceberus cells as equivalent to Spectres in their "do whatever it takes" sort of way, they're pretty much on par with their extremism: the Council merely has more assets with the Citadel, and I'd imagine a lot more red tape.  This is where I see something like Cerberus a boon: they're all about efficiency and results.  However, we need to prove to the Council Reapers are real; Cerberus already believes you.

In the end it doesn't matter whom we give the base to, so long as we get the opportunity.  Not doing so would be a waste.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Would you still save the Collector base if instead of giving it to a human supremacist organization you were giving it to an alien one? Say a turian special forces group were the ones to bring you back and go after the Collectors.

Well, a turian group would at least have government oversight and would likely share the base's secrets with the rest of the Council, so I'd share the base in that case.

You mean the same Turian government that arranged the theft of materials and covert developement of the Thanix, a weapon that has potential to greatly tip the balance of power?  The Turian government that produces gems like the Turian Councillor?

Now I would give them the base but I'm not so naive to think they'll share with anyone but their own.  Same with Cerberus I'm sure they'll share their findings with the Alliance, but aside from intentional "leaks" I don't think they'd hand anything substantial to the Council races.

[Barquiel]

DPSSOC wrote...

You mean the same Turian government that arranged the theft of materials and covert developement of the Thanix, a weapon that has potential to greatly tip the balance of power?  The Turian government that produces gems like the Turian Councillor?

Although I have not the faintest idea how some former c-sec officer got the plans...the turians share the Thanix.

[mosor]

Barquiel wrote...

mosor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I've said this before. Giving that much power to Cerberus could provoke the Council into becoming actively antagonistic towards Shepard. Depending on how deeply Cerberus' tentacles have penetrated the sweaty orifices of the Alliance, it could lead to larger governmental issues as well. I'm giving Cerberus the opportunity here to slink back into the shadows for the greater good.

Haha no need to worry about for me. The previous one is dead and the new one has Udina as the chairman

Are you sure that's a good thing? At least my council talked to me:P

I have no patience for stupid people, human and alien alike. The fact that they don't talk to me is a boon! If I'm forced to talk to the council in ME3, bioware better give me a renegade interrupt!

Modifié par mosor, 02 octobre 2010 - 03:36 .

[Xilizhra]

You mean the same Turian government that arranged the theft of materials and covert developement of the Thanix, a weapon that has potential to greatly tip the balance of power? The Turian government that produces gems like the Turian Councillor?



Now I would give them the base but I'm not so naive to think they'll share with anyone but their own. Same with Cerberus I'm sure they'll share their findings with the Alliance, but aside from intentional "leaks" I don't think they'd hand anything substantial to the Council races.

That was without a galactic-sized threat hanging over their heads, to their knowledge.

[DPSSOC]

Barquiel wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

You mean the same Turian government that arranged the theft of materials and covert developement of the Thanix, a weapon that has potential to greatly tip the balance of power?  The Turian government that produces gems like the Turian Councillor?

Although I have not the faintest idea how some former c-sec officer got the plans...the turians share the Thanix.

Source?  Garrus regularly makes reference to contacts (in both ME1 and 2).  He knows people who know things and was able, through them, to acquire the plans (why a C-Sec officer would have high-ranking government/military contacts is a good question).  However what evidence do you have that the Turian government is sharing the Thanix?  Garrus shares it with Shepard but as he points out he's not a very good Turian.

[Barquiel]

no evidence

But I doubt the salarian STG's or the asari have any problems to acquire the plans if Garrus was able to do it.
a) the plans are not very secret...turians shared them
the turian counter-intelligence is terrible;)

[mosor]

In response to some above questions that have been directed at me, I'll say this.



1. I'd give the base to anyone willing to investigate it and use that knowledge against the reapers. That's the rational course of action when the stakes are galactic extinction. If you're dealt an ace in your hand, you keep it.



2. Would I fall in line with the turians and asari if the positions where reversed? While I freely admit that I prefer my asari on their knees rather than the other way around (mmmm asari on their knees!), I'd play the cards I'm dealt and work for survival.

[Barquiel]

mosor wrote...

While I freely admit that I prefer my asari on their knees rather than the other way around (mmmm asari on their knees!), I'd play the cards I'm dealt and work for survival.

I think you deserve the "Empress Aria T'Loak" ending in ME3

[lovgreno]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'd give them the base rather than destroy it, yes, but do you really think they'd share if they thought they could do it alone? That's naive. Maybe they would in the face of the greater threat, but I wouldn't count on it.

Yes. Turian culture is extremely duty-bound, and as soon as the Reaper threat became real, I have no doubt that they'd distribute this stuff to their allies.

Considering how dependant the turians are on their asari and salarian allies (and vice versa) I doubt they could keep it even if they wanted to. But there would be no reason to as more resources would means a better chance of finding something usefull, perhaps even something that can win the war with some luck.

On the other hand, little isolated Cerberus with their overcentralised leadership and many enemies, would they ask for help with handling that base? Hard to say with TIM.

But it's not like we have a choice anyway. It isn't supposed to be a easy choice you know.

[mosor]

Barquiel wrote...

mosor wrote...

While I freely admit that I prefer my asari on their knees rather than the other way around (mmmm asari on their knees!), I'd play the cards I'm dealt and work for survival.

I think you deserve the "Empress Aria T'Loak" ending in ME3

Dammit, you made me spit out my coffee while laughing. That ending wouldn't be so bad.....as long as she has one of those Cerberus control chips.

[lovgreno]

mosor wrote...

In response to some above questions that have been directed at me, I'll say this.

1. I'd give the base to anyone willing to investigate it and use that knowledge against the reapers. That's the rational course of action when the stakes are galactic extinction. If you're dealt an ace in your hand, you keep it.

2. Would I fall in line with the turians and asari if the positions where reversed? While I freely admit that I prefer my asari on their knees rather than the other way around (mmmm asari on their knees!), I'd play the cards I'm dealt and work for survival.

Let's hope TIM can do the same then and not take unnecesary risks by trying to explore that base with just his 150 redshirts.
So if destroying Cerberus and the base, killing TIM, kissing the turian councilours boots and begging him for forgiveness in public was the only way to save the galaxy you would do just that I take it? If so it is good to know that you can consider many different options and are not too proud to admit needing help.

Modifié par lovgreno, 02 octobre 2010 - 04:48 .

[mosor]

lovgreno wrote...

mosor wrote...

In response to some above questions that have been directed at me, I'll say this.

1. I'd give the base to anyone willing to investigate it and use that knowledge against the reapers. That's the rational course of action when the stakes are galactic extinction. If you're dealt an ace in your hand, you keep it.

2. Would I fall in line with the turians and asari if the positions where reversed? While I freely admit that I prefer my asari on their knees rather than the other way around (mmmm asari on their knees!), I'd play the cards I'm dealt and work for survival.

Let's hope TIM can do the same then and not take unnecesary risks by trying to explore that base with just his 150 redshirts.
So if destroying Cerberus and the base, killing TIM, kissing the turian councilours boots and begging him for forgiveness in public was the only way to save the galaxy you would do just that I take it? If so it is good to know that you can consider many different options and are not too proud to admit needing help.

If that was the only option available at the time I'd definitely swallow my own pride for the greater good. Little Jimmy deserves to grow up and experience a future. To deny that to him for the sake of my own personal pride is incredibly  selfish.

[liveload]

Cool thread.

I decided both ways on different save games for each character/class I played through. That's just for options come ME3.



Personally I think keeping the base is a good idea provided a few conditions are met. I see no reason why the Reapers couldn't launch some sort of counterattack. They were after all controlling the collectors by some very advanced methods. You'd have to minimize the exposure of organics to the base itself. The use of remote platforms would be mandatory. Peace with the Geth may be an ideal solution to this potential threat. Perhaps construct a base of your own nearby to house the necessary personnel and facilities needed to research the collector base.



Since the Reaper's plans for organic life's development path and ultimate fate have already been disrupted, it's fair to say that using ingenuity and innovation combined with advanced technology and concepts similar to what was done with the thanix cannons is actually the real way to go.



We as a species tend to look at something and say, "yeah that's a good idea, but I can do it better...or in ways that would suit us better"



OTOH, a real danger I see in the long term with keeping the base is people like TIM trying to develop their own version of indoctrination technology. Besides, if you chose to keep the council like I did from ME1, and get honorary blessings and reinstatement to spectre status, handing something like the collector base over to Cerberus might cause some serious political problems and instability at a time when solidarity is critical. Besides, the Omega4 relay is now open to us. Nothing is stopping us from sending assets there to study the massive quantities of paleotechnology floating around. There's no telling what you'd find there.

[Phaedon]

[quote]
ME2 paid off: EDI, Normandy, Lazarus, Collector Base (OH WAIT.)[/quote]

Heh. it's probably Bioware's fault to have most of Cerberus's operations go wrong (I mean, if they are going to be a prestigious/notorious organization, at least mention a few successful operations.:happy:), but still, I don't see how TIM's harsh (and sometimes unethical) measures paid off in these two projects. The SR2 project was succesful due to TIM's persuasion, and the Lazarus Project was just...science. 

[quote][quote]Already did, 9 posts before your post.
[/quote]
Yeah try that again please.  I'm not hunting through this thread.[/quote]
Here you go, http://social.biowar...2753/19#4934960 , but let's please not recycle the same arguments over and over again.

[quote][quote]
So, he sacrificed a human colony, (could have) sacrificed the VS and lied to Shepard ? I get why you think it's OK, but who made him god all of a sudden ? Moral, Practical or not, you have no right to decide for the fate of thousands. 
[/quote]
He didn't sacrifice anyone.  He saved the colony, or what he could, which is better than anyone else, especially the Alliance.

Geez.  I may not like TIM by much, but even you have to see that manipulating the enemy via information is a good step.  And you're complaining he sacrificed a colony[/quote]
He did sacrifice a part of the colony, but my argument lies on the 'Who made you god' point.

.

[quote][quote]
How has this been debated to death and how is this is a good thing ?
[/quote]
It has.

Because Shepard could've tipped off the Collectors in any number of ways.

Because they weren't expecting EDI.

I'm not a fan of being lied to either, but it paid off.
[/quote]
Could you please post a few ways he could have tipped them off ? Bringing more teams with him ? 

[quote][quote]No, then it simply means that TIM is being illusive...again. 
[/quote]
So what's your point?
[/quote]
My point, which I have to admit is partially speculation is that he knew everything about the projects. I base this on the fact that he is defending the concept of Project Overlord and the unfortunate timing on Pragia.


[quote][quote]15th/16th page.[/quote]
Either write it down or link to it, or stop arguing.  I'm not bothering to hunt down some obscure idea of yours.[/quote]
http://social.biowar...2753/15#4926156
http://social.biowar...2753/15#4926511

[quote][quote]Factual.[/quote]
Not according to Miranda.  That scene plays out a few ways with Tali.  It is subjective.[/quote]
This is an objective view at what happenned:
A quarian brought 3 humans that were hunted by Cerberus to the flotilla. The Quarians gave them asylum and they were attacked by Cerberus and a traitor, Golo.
http://masseffect.wi...fect:_Ascension
Attacking a flotilla that also contains hundrends unarmed civilians in each ship ? I'd say this makes TIM a bad guy.


[quote][quote]
Killing a traitor? Killing a father of 3, and an Alliance Admiral.[/quote]
Still a traitor.[/quote]
Definitely not a traitor. Someone lured his squad to a thresher maw (Akuze anyone ?). Shep finds out, tells him, Kahoku goes to the SB to find more info. All evidence leads to Cerberus and Cerberus knows that, so they are hunting Kahoku. Shepard raids the various Cerberus bases and finds Kahoku's dead body.

[quote][quote]
The rachni and thorian creepers experiments are quite ethically gray, and the asari and Akuze experiments definitely involved hurting people.
[/quote]
They're only ethically gray if the ones conducting the experiments KEEP conducting the experiments after learning the rachni were sentient.  Experimenting on creepers (mindless) or husks (already dead) is not a morally gray quandry.  You'd find just as many morally gray issues in a medical lab with cadavers and mice.[/quote]

• Morgues only examine bodies to provide physical evidence to the police.
• Medical labs/universities only use cadavers after permission (or in some countries DBs from John/Jane Does)

Respect  towards a dead body, as well as a proper burrial is a human right.


[quote][quote]
They only gave up on the rachni, because they were terrified by their intelligence. And wait, you don't think that experimenting on cadavers and well, controlled cadavers isn't unethical ?
[/quote]
I don't recall them being terrified by their intelligence.  There is only mention of them stopping their experiments.

Experimenting on cadavers is not unethical.  Seriously, go to your local university and ask for the tour of their labs and morgue.  This is not a morally gray area.
[/quote]
Above argument.

[quote][quote]
Indeed, you can support that TIM didn't directly lead any of these projects, but I have to disagree. EDI stated clearly that TIM only wanted a couple of operations being run on the same time so that he could supervise them extensively. What makes you think that he wasn't well aware of everything going on ?
[/quote]
Play Pragia and pay attention to all the video logs.  I think the second one clearly states this.  In Overlord, the only one who knows what's going on is Archer.

Just because he's overseeing them all doesn't mean he has all the data on what's going on.[/quote]
I believe that I have replied to that earlier on the post.

[quote][quote]
It depends on what you are trying to prove is. Are we trying to explain why our Sheps destroyed/saved the Collector base, or if it is right or wrong ?
[/quote]
No it doesn't matter what you're trying to prove!

Supplementary material is completely irrelevant for completely obvious reasons.  I don't start quoting the Bible and believe Shepard is Jesus and thus he Must Save All, or some bull.  Stick to the actual content.[/quote]
Supplemental content is cannon. The only reason for not including them in our arguments is because we want to justify why a random Shepard would save/destroy the base (without having access to this material).

[quote][quote]
What's your point ? Throughout the whole game, you can only betray Cerberus after TIM mentions the 'and...beyond' quote.
[/quote]
The point is TIM and Cerberus trust Shepard big time.  Ones opinion of TIM is irrelevant in every sense of the word.[/quote]
I never claimed that TIM or Ceberus didn't trust Shepard, I just don't see how this is an argument.

[quote][quote]
Did I say that she lied to us ? I just said that she just used the same arguments to convince both Shepard and herself that Cerberus's cause is alright. She didn't resign from Cerberus because she just disagreed with TIM on the collector base issue.
[/quote]
So if she didn't lie, then what's the big issue?  Cerberus gets things done.  They do things no one else can.  Like stopping the Collectors and the Reapers.  This is a good thing.[/quote]
Indeed, Cerberus is a necessary evil. The Council and the Alliance don't do anything, so I had no problem working with Cerberus just for this mission. Especially since the Normandy crew are the most morally good/neutral people Cerberus has and not some sort of space racists . The big question that every Shepard has to answer is this:
How much is your humanity worth ?
In the ME universe, there are no bad choices, there are only moral dillemas. 

[quote]quote]
Are you being ironic ?  At best, he is a really really bad leader.OK TIM, so you thought that the Pragia project was rather suspicious, so you sent a team to destroy the base. Oh damn, a riot has already started. What a shame. Apparently, the riot has ended and we are still not there. Yay ! We are here ! How unfortunate that we missed the party for a few hours, tho. [/quote]
TIM was clearly not responsible for the events of Pragia.  He did his best after it went violent.[/quote]
Don't you consider the timing in Pragia suspicious ?

[quote][quote]
So, your answer is that you believe that there is no evidence in the game or otherwise, right ? [/quote]
Exactly.  If there was, I'd have something to work with.  I, too, thought TIM would've been a morally gray and potentially evil character, but he never comes across as that.  He's just some guy, doing the best he can in a certain situation for intended results, and ME2 has shown us that those results pay off.  Which seems all the more reason why we'd want his help.

The Base issue has almost nothing to do with TIM and his agenda.  It's about the Reapers.  As soon as one puts their bias or opinion of TIM or Cerberus in question, all this bullsh*t about Human Dominance gets in the way of the real issue: stopping the bad guys.
[/quote]
By otherwise, I did mean supplemental material. If you take them in account, then it is absolute that TIM is a morally grey character. If you don't. well then, considering him good or bad is debatable. And that's what we are debating on, right ? 

Modifié par Phaedon, 02 octobre 2010 - 05:21 .

[amnixou]

Remember when you spoke to Sovereign in the original game?

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."

You might rationalize keeping the collector base is the logical choise, but its the one the Reapers expect you to make.

It's no coincidence that you are given the choice to keep that base.

"We impose order on the chaos of organic life"

By blowing it up, you create chaos and further mess with their plans.

Intellectual checkmate.

[Phaedon]

amnixou wrote...

Remember when you spoke to Sovereign in the original game?

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."

You might rationalize keeping the collector base is the logical choise, but its the one the Reapers expect you to make.

It's no coincidence that you are given the choice to keep that base.

"We impose order on the chaos of organic life"

By blowing it up, you create chaos and further mess with their plans.

Intellectual checkmate.

Hmm...good point, but I don't think that they would ever expect Shepard to find the Collector base. I mean, it's past the Omega-4 relay and in the center of the galaxy. This place is full of black holes.

[Xilizhra]

I think, however, that they already have the means to counter their own technology, and could definitely use it much better than we. We likely need to find some entirely new, non-Reaper trick to defeat them.

[Inverness Moon]

amnixou wrote...

Remember when you spoke to Sovereign in the original game?

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."

You might rationalize keeping the collector base is the logical choise, but its the one the Reapers expect you to make.

It's no coincidence that you are given the choice to keep that base.

"We impose order on the chaos of organic life"

By blowing it up, you create chaos and further mess with their plans.

Intellectual checkmate.

What you're saying makes no sense for reasons I explained before.

[Phaedon]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think, however, that they already have the means to counter their own technology, and could definitely use it much better than we. We likely need to find some entirely new, non-Reaper trick to defeat them.

Yep. Who else thinks it will have something to do with dark energy or a star exploding ?