2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Phaedon wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think, however, that they already have the means to counter their own technology, and could definitely use it much better than we. We likely need to find some entirely new, non-Reaper trick to defeat them.

Yep. Who else thinks it will have something to do with dark energy or a star exploding ?

Luring them into a supernova or something isn't going to work unless you can somehow prevent them from going FTL.

[amnixou]

What you're saying makes no sense for reasons I explained before.

And what are you referring to? I didn't go thru 22 pages before posting my speculation/opinion.

And were only speculating here, no way to know until ME3.

[mosor]

amnixou wrote...

What you're saying makes no sense for reasons I explained before.

And what are you referring to? I didn't go thru 22 pages before posting my speculation/opinion.

And were only speculating here, no way to know until ME3.

Basically that whole Sovereign argument, that we go down the path the reapers desire point is moot, considering we're already well travelled on that path and ready for reaper harvesting. Either you go further than the reapers intended, or you get off the path and hide. You're not gonna find a new path any time soon. That plan could take decades or even centuries.

[Phaedon]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think, however, that they already have the means to counter their own technology, and could definitely use it much better than we. We likely need to find some entirely new, non-Reaper trick to defeat them.

Yep. Who else thinks it will have something to do with dark energy or a star exploding ?

Luring them into a supernova or something isn't going to work unless you can somehow prevent them from going FTL.

Well it would be more complicated than that, obviously. If the cluster that they are in is too populated with stars they would have to compute a safe route on the FTL plotter and that takes time. But I do think that Haestrom will be important in ME3.

[Spectre_907]

amnixou wrote...

Remember when you spoke to Sovereign in the original game?

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."

You might rationalize keeping the collector base is the logical choise, but its the one the Reapers expect you to make.

Using or studying Reaper tech does not necessarily guarantee a predicted path by its creators. There are cases where Reaper tech and its study and use follow unpredictable paths with the Reapers. The Keepers were bio-engineered with Reaper tech but the Reapers failed to account for the evolution of organic life. Ksad Ishan and the scientists on Ilos were able to outwit the Reapers by exploiting this weakness using Reaper tech as well. That was the whole reason behind the events of ME. Now the Reapers cannot herd organic life to their doom because of this unforseen result. They must do that now by ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL of puppets.

[Dean_the_Young]

Issue: Reapers wanted us to use Mass Relays and Citadel.

Evaluation: ...well, I haven't heard anyone who insists on destroying the base demanding we abandon the Citadel and Mass Relay network.



Issue: Reapers didn't want us getting to the Collector Base, or being able to capture it and the tech within.

Evaluation: Keeping it is doing what they wanted us to do!





Why is it that what they really wanted us to do in a known trap, people want to stick with, while what they never planned or wanted us to do, people insist it's a trap to be destroyed?

[philiposophy]

When Sovereign said "your civilization develops along the paths we desire", I'm pretty sure he just meant we'd end up at the Citadel, where we'd be cannon fodder when the invasion starts.

[skcih-deraj]

philiposophy wrote...

When Sovereign said "your civilization develops along the paths we desire", I'm pretty sure he just meant we'd end up at the Citadel, where we'd be cannon fodder when the invasion starts.

My thoughts exactly!

The reapers couldn't have thought that organics would have gotten through the Omega four relay and use its tech against them.  

[Purge the heathens]

The reapers couldn't have thought that organics would have gotten through the Omega four relay and use its tech against them.

It's reinforced by EDI. Upon landing at the CB, she says something to the effect that there's no internal sensor network/surveillance because the Reapers probably never anticipated that someone would survive past the relay.

When Sovereign said "your civilization develops along the paths we desire", I'm pretty sure he just meant we'd end up at the Citadel, where we'd be cannon fodder when the invasion starts.

Not entirely, the Reapers' preset path also includes the dependence on mass effect technology, especially the relays for FTL travel.

[Anglerfish]

Yes, lets utilise substandard and unfinished Reaper technology [particle beam weapons are not Reapers' weapons of choice; Collector ships not Reapers themselves; et cetera] against a race of machines that know their own tech inside out. No, stupid idea. Whilst the geth are a little idealistic for my tastes, they are correct when they say that diverging from the Reapers' technological pathways is a good idea. Whether the Reapers intended for us to use the Collector technology, they will know precisely how it works and how to defend themselves against it. By destroying the station, which would not be as useful as Sovereign anyway, we force ourselves to invent our own technology along paths not necessarily understood by the Reapers.
Addendum: I would not mind betting that the alliance/Citadel is in possession of Sovereign/Nazara, and that they are developing countermeasures against actual Reapers as opposed to Collector-controlled structures, which may well have been corrupted Prothean technology - and it is clear that Prothean technology, even with Reaper enhancements, was insufficient to stop the Reapers.

Modifié par Anglerfish, 02 octobre 2010 - 07:41 .

[Spectre_907]

Anglerfish wrote...

Whilst the geth are a little idealistic for my tastes, they are correct when they say that diverging from the Reapers' technological pathways is a good idea. Whether the Reapers intended for us to use the Collector technology, they will know precisely how it works and how to defend themselves against it. By destroying the station, which would not be as useful as Sovereign anyway, we force ourselves to invent our own technology along paths not necessarily understood by the Reapers.

I think Legion was only talking about organic civilizations being herded by the Reapers with their technology before the Protheans altered the Keepers. We aren't being herded anymore by them since their plans to continue the cycle no longer work. Whether we use Reaper tech or not won't be a predicted path now. The talk of use of technology in that light makes sense. Also, the original geth refused a Reaper shell for them to all upload into. How one acquires and uses technology would be very important for them but might not be for us.

Addendum: I would not mind betting that the alliance/Citadel is in possession of Sovereign/Nazara, and that they are developing countermeasures against actual Reapers as opposed to Collector-controlled structures, which may well have been corrupted Prothean technology - and it is clear that Prothean technology, even with Reaper enhancements, was insufficient to stop the Reapers.

According to Anderson, there was not enough salvage to account for half of Sovereign due to unauthorized salvage and the Keepers.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 02 octobre 2010 - 08:14 .

[smudboy]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...


Here you go, http://social.biowar...2753/19#4934960 , but let's please not recycle the same arguments over and over again.
[/quote]
Where is this proof of racism?  That's like saying someone promoting black culture is a racist.

[quote]
He did sacrifice a part of the colony, but my argument lies on the 'Who made you god' point.
[/quote]
That's not a point, that's a subjective opinion.  He lured the enemy into a place he wanted them.  This was preferable to them simply taking MORE, and entire, colonies.  In doing so, he saved half the colony or so, and attacked them.  This is win-win.  It could've gone better, I'm sure, but it's better than what's been going on the past 2 years.

But I'm sure TIM would've been much better if he did jack-squat.  Yeah.

[quote]
Could you please post a few ways he could have tipped them off ? Bringing more teams with him ? 
[/quote]
Seriously, use your imagination.  If you know something's going to be a trap, you're going to behave differently.  The fact is TIM believed Shepard's team would've gotten the job done regardless of the risk, and it worked out.

This is a point I'm in favor of, simply because I can think up a few really good things to do to not only get the data, but disable the ship.

[quote]
My point, which I have to admit is partially speculation is that he knew everything about the projects. I base this on the fact that he is defending the concept of Project Overlord and the unfortunate timing on Pragia.
[/quote]
Dude, the narrative is very clear on this issue.  I really can't stress that enough.  We can speculate that Miranda or Jacob knew about all this stuff too, but it's pure guessing.

[quote]
http://social.biowar...2753/15#4926156
http://social.biowar...2753/15#4926511
[/quote]
The only thing relevant there is the assassination of the Pope, and we don't know his involvement in it.

[quote]
This is an objective view at what happenned:
A quarian brought 3 humans that were hunted by Cerberus to the flotilla. The Quarians gave them asylum and they were attacked by Cerberus and a traitor, Golo.
http://masseffect.wi...fect:_Ascension
Attacking a flotilla that also contains hundrends unarmed civilians in each ship ? I'd say this makes TIM a bad guy.
[/quote]
Whereas I do appreciate objective views, I'm basing my information on the game, not supplemental material.  We have to work with what we're given only within the game.  Supplementary material no longer makes it objective, even if it points to stuff in another story, we must only get that information from this story.

Now if TIM did something evil or morally gray in ME2, then we could make some good comparisons, and it certainly hints at making us believe he knows more than he's letting on; but that's pure speculation.

[quote]
Definitely not a traitor. Someone lured his squad to a thresher maw (Akuze anyone ?). Shep finds out, tells him, Kahoku goes to the SB to find more info. All evidence leads to Cerberus and Cerberus knows that, so they are hunting Kahoku. Shepard raids the various Cerberus bases and finds Kahoku's dead body.
[/quote]
Working with the SB, giving us and others information on Cerberus/Alliance?  That's a traitor right there.  If he's a Rear Admiral and gave information about the Alliance to someone of lower rank or the SB, or even a Spectre, that's a breach in protocol.  You don't divulge military secrets to anyone.  His intentions may have been good, but he ultimately got caught up in something he shouldn't.

[quote]
Morgues only examine bodies to provide physical evidence to the police.
Medical labs/universities only use cadavers after permission (or in some countries DBs from John/Jane Does)Respect  towards a dead body, as well as a proper burrial is a human right.
[/quote]
I seem to recall this very issue raised in regards to Samesh Bhatia, but that's in regards to a person being killed by Geth, not turned into husks or a cloned Thorian creeper.

And do those morgues have husks?  Do they know that said person was converted into those?  Creepers were  produced by the Thorian, in much the same way the it produced Shiala clones.  Shall we ship all those clones to their families?  Is there a way to understand which person because what husk?  This issue isn't even raised.  These are mindless if not already dead things.  The narrative provided no semblance of rights to these people (the husks.)  The only thing we get is an email from some obscure people asking Shepard to look out for their family members who were lost in a colony abduction.


[quote]
Above argument.
[/quote]
Then it's a non issue.

[quote]
Supplemental content is cannon. The only reason for not including them in our arguments is because we want to justify why a random Shepard would save/destroy the base (without having access to this material).
[/quote]
If the content is not in the game, it's not in the game.  Over my head, over the average viewer's head, and has no purpose or point in this discussion.

You can only work with what you're given in THIS story.

[quote]
I never claimed that TIM or Ceberus didn't trust Shepard, I just don't see how this is an argument.
[/quote]
Because that's the only meaning the concept of trust plays into this.

Ones opinion of TIM and how much we subjectively trust him is irrelevant.

However, TIM and Cerberus completely trust Shepard to do the right thing.  And they trust us with destroying the base.  And we can throw all that trust away simply because "the soul of humanity" or whatever idiocy they spout.

[quote]
How much is your humanity worth ?
In the ME universe, there are no bad choices, there are only moral dillemas. 
[/quote]
This isn't about humanity: this is about all life.

[quote]
Don't you consider the timing in Pragia suspicious ?
[/quote]
The narrative is clear.

[quote]
By otherwise, I did mean supplemental material. If you take them in account, then it is absolute that TIM is a morally grey character. If you don't. well then, considering him good or bad is debatable. And that's what we are debating on, right ? [/quote]

And I never will.  And anyone else who does is automatically wrong and their points moot.  You need to remain objective.  You have to argue the facts as this story gives us, not some OTHER story.  This is ME2, not ME2 Ascension, not ME2 Redemption, or whatever.

I'm sure the supplemental materials paint an entirely different picture of things.  I hear it turns Liara into a superhero on stupid.  It's completely irrelevant.  You can only work with what you're given.

[pf17456]

[quote]    Dean_the_Young wrote...

Issue: Reapers wanted us to use Mass Relays and Citadel.
Evaluation: ...well, I haven't heard anyone who insists on destroying the base demanding we abandon the Citadel and Mass Relay network.
 
[quote]

I think it would be wise to abandon the Citidel and perhaps discontinue using the Mass Relays.

Here's why;

As stated in the game the Reapers provide these things so that a sentient life form can develop along the path chosen by the Reapers and after the passage of time a species progresses far enough to be capable of harvesting and conversion to a Reaper.

I think that each Reaper represents the assimilated living consciousness of a species and coming into close proximity to the living consciousness of a species produces indoctrination. I'm not convinced that the destruction of the Reaper in ME1 actually killed it. Rather it was broken into smaller pieces with a smaller capacity to indoctrinate. Seems the Keepers used those smaller pieces to repair the Citadel which may allow for indoctrination to occur at a slower rate, or maybe a faster rate depending on whether or not the Citadel had indoctrinating capabilities to begin with. This is probably why the Council refuses to accept Shepard's warnings about the Reapers. So yes, if the Citadel is somewhat 'radioactive' getting out would be a pretty good idea unless of course the ideas of 'everlasting life' , 'ascendance' and 'salvation' are appealing. 

The Collector base was a Reaper factory which may have eventually revealed the nuts and bolts of just how the consciousness of a species could be extracted from it's individual members and combined to create a Reaper.
IMO 'how' they do it isn't quite as important as that they 'do it' . In other words knowing that uranium will kill me is enough. Playing with it to find out how it'll kill me is secondary.

Modifié par pf17456, 02 octobre 2010 - 08:42 .

[Purge the heathens]

@pf17456

I honestly believe that abandoning the Citadel and the mass relays would be a bad idea. It would equal the complete and utter collapse of galactic civilization and total isolation of all inhabited star systems. That'd just spare the Reapers the effort to lock down the network. Once the Reapers are dealt with, in whatever fashion, the species of the galaxy can deviate all they want.

Modifié par Purge the heathens, 02 octobre 2010 - 08:40 .

[pf17456]

Purge the heathens wrote...

@pf17456

I honestly believe that abandoning the Citadel and the mass relays would be a bad idea. It would equal the complete and utter collapse of galactic civilization and total isolation of all inhabited star systems. That'd just spare the Reapers the effort to lock down the network. Once the Reapers are dealt with, in whatever fashion, the species of the galaxy can deviate all they want.

Well you know in retrospect considering that the Reapers are on their way over to have a harvest fest it's kind of late to move on since we're already 'ripe for the picking'

[lovgreno]

smudboy wrote...
And I never will.  And anyone else who does is automatically wrong and their points moot.  You need to remain objective.

So in other words you are saying that your personal opinion is the only possible objective truth? Despite the fact that the ME world is never right or wrong, good or evil and that it is never possible to know how a decision turns out as Shepard is not a oracle.

[lovgreno]

Purge the heathens wrote...

@pf17456

I honestly believe that abandoning the Citadel and the mass relays would be a bad idea. It would equal the complete and utter collapse of galactic civilization and total isolation of all inhabited star systems. That'd just spare the Reapers the effort to lock down the network. Once the Reapers are dealt with, in whatever fashion, the species of the galaxy can deviate all they want.

It would probably be practicaly and politicaly impossible anyway. It's what makes the galactic civilisations work, so no one is going to let Shepard do that because of his/her rather hard to belivable story about reapers.

[smudboy]

lovgreno wrote...

smudboy wrote...
And I never will.  And anyone else who does is automatically wrong and their points moot.  You need to remain objective.

So in other words you are saying that your personal opinion is the only possible objective truth? Despite the fact that the ME world is never right or wrong, good or evil and that it is never possible to know how a decision turns out as Shepard is not a oracle.

Alternatie/supplemental material is irrelevant.  This is ME2.  And only ME2.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
I think, however, that they already have the means to counter their own technology, and could definitely use it much better than we. We likely need to find some entirely new, non-Reaper trick to defeat them.

That is probably true. But to fight something, especially fight the effects of some technology, you need to understand what you're fighting. For instance, you won't find a dependeable means against indoctrination unless you understand how it works. Also, there are a few useful tricks I'd want to learn for later use. For instance, how do the Reapers keep contact with the Collectors from intergalactic space?

[DPSSOC]

Anglerfish wrote...

Yes, lets utilise substandard and unfinished Reaper technology [particle beam weapons are not Reapers' weapons of choice; Collector ships not Reapers themselves; et cetera] against a race of machines that know their own tech inside out. No, stupid idea. Whilst the geth are a little idealistic for my tastes, they are correct when they say that diverging from the Reapers' technological pathways is a good idea. Whether the Reapers intended for us to use the Collector technology, they will know precisely how it works and how to defend themselves against it. By destroying the station, which would not be as useful as Sovereign anyway, we force ourselves to invent our own technology along paths not necessarily understood by the Reapers.

There's also the potential for data you're ignoring.  The be all and end all of the Collector Base is not strictly repurposed or reverse engineered tech.  If we can find out how Reapers are built we can better understand how to rip them apart.  However even if all we get is hard tech it's better than nothing.  It's all well and good to say develope our own stuff but we don't have the time.  Go up to any designer (car, building, clothing, etc.) and tell them to come up with something completely new and you're going to have a long wait and a lot of disappointment.  We don't have time to R&D tech "outside the box" so we have to find ways to improve, as much as possible, what we have and try to find work arounds for Reaper defenses.

[Dean_the_Young]

And as if they don't know how our own technology now works better than we do?

[wizardryforever]

DPSSOC wrote...

Anglerfish wrote...

Yes, lets utilise substandard and unfinished Reaper technology [particle beam weapons are not Reapers' weapons of choice; Collector ships not Reapers themselves; et cetera] against a race of machines that know their own tech inside out. No, stupid idea. Whilst the geth are a little idealistic for my tastes, they are correct when they say that diverging from the Reapers' technological pathways is a good idea. Whether the Reapers intended for us to use the Collector technology, they will know precisely how it works and how to defend themselves against it. By destroying the station, which would not be as useful as Sovereign anyway, we force ourselves to invent our own technology along paths not necessarily understood by the Reapers.

There's also the potential for data you're ignoring.  The be all and end all of the Collector Base is not strictly repurposed or reverse engineered tech.  If we can find out how Reapers are built we can better understand how to rip them apart.  However even if all we get is hard tech it's better than nothing.  It's all well and good to say develope our own stuff but we don't have the time.  Go up to any designer (car, building, clothing, etc.) and tell them to come up with something completely new and you're going to have a long wait and a lot of disappointment.  We don't have time to R&D tech "outside the box" so we have to find ways to improve, as much as possible, what we have and try to find work arounds for Reaper defenses.

Just reposting something I said earlier that answers this.

And seriously, considering how much research and tech came out of
looking at Sovereign's wreckage, there's no reason we couldn't simply
do the same with the Collector base wreckage.  This kinda punches a
hole in the "if you destroy the base you're left with nothing" argument.

[chris025657]

wizardryforever wrote...

Just reposting something I said earlier that answers this.

And seriously, considering how much research and tech came out of
looking at Sovereign's wreckage, there's no reason we couldn't simply
do the same with the Collector base wreckage.  This kinda punches a
hole in the "if you destroy the base you're left with nothing" argument.

If you intend on studying the base why would you blow it up? By destroying the base, you have no idea what was lost with the explosion. Furthermore, destroying the base greatly increases the difficulty in recovering anything useful as the wreckage is scattered everywhere. There is also the added complications of powerful, dangerous radiation and the existing debris field making study of the base wreckage far more difficult. It's better to leave the base intact if you want to study it. 

Modifié par chris025657, 02 octobre 2010 - 11:17 .

[chris025657]

(double post)

Modifié par chris025657, 02 octobre 2010 - 11:19 .

[philiposophy]

Blowing up the base might not leave you with absolutely "nothing" but you sure won't have as much tech and info as you would have had if you just salvaged it.