2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Siegdrifa]

TIM is focused too much on his goal, that's why i believe he can't be fully trusted.

Anyway, personnaly i can't believe someone that lie even if it's for the greater good.



You can observe that in human society, especialy where there is responsibility involved, you can't trust everybody (anybody?) because if they are fully focused on their goal, they could "sacrifice", "betray" someone's trust to keep their objectiv in sight if needed.

Even if it's for a good cause, acting in shadow tend to force other people to act like that too and it's ending in big masquarade.



This is the first reason for me to destroy the base.

The second is, this technologie is building reapers by an infamous process. Beyond this horrible process, i believe some people focused too much on their goal would actualy need to use this process to understand how it work because it's quicker and easyer to understand it without observing it in action, making potentialy casuality.

The last reason that actualy help me took the desicion is: it's a video game and i know there will be another way in ME3 without keeping this base intact, so i didn't worry much of the repercution and acted like my moral told me. I wouldn't mind if it makes ME3 more dramatic with more death because i choose to destroy this technologie for my selfish moral.



I will wait ME3 and some spoiller about playthrough with this base to know if i'll make a new playthrough myself, to see the difference.

[Arijharn]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

The collector base was built primarily to build a reaper. The technology inside of said base is technology to build reapers. What do you think TIM, a man who has already implanted reaper tech into a human, will do with the base that was designed solely to build reapers?

It may seem like the technology will be helpful, IN THE RIGHT HANDS. We all know what TIM will do with the base, and i'm sure most of us can predict the repercussions that will come of it.

See, the reason most of us 'pro-Cerberus' people completely dismiss this idea is, other than the fact that it's far fetched in TIM's stated goals but also because:
a) The Collectors would have to hit Earth to finish the construction.
Said construction requires millions or perhaps more as stated by EDI.
c) TIM stated goal is to stop the Reapers... not add more to them.

Please I beg thee, stop this argument because it's already been dismissed by those three facts alone and please save my remaining thin grasp of sanity from having to repeat myself again

[Gibb_Shepard]

Arijharn wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

The collector base was built primarily to build a reaper. The technology inside of said base is technology to build reapers. What do you think TIM, a man who has already implanted reaper tech into a human, will do with the base that was designed solely to build reapers?

It may seem like the technology will be helpful, IN THE RIGHT HANDS. We all know what TIM will do with the base, and i'm sure most of us can predict the repercussions that will come of it.

See, the reason most of us 'pro-Cerberus' people completely dismiss this idea is, other than the fact that it's far fetched in TIM's stated goals but also because:
a) The Collectors would have to hit Earth to finish the construction.
Said construction requires millions or perhaps more as stated by EDI.
c) TIM stated goal is to stop the Reapers... not add more to them.

Please I beg thee, stop this argument because it's already been dismissed by those three facts alone and please save my remaining thin grasp of sanity from having to repeat myself again

You dismiss this claim on those points?

a) This has nothing to do with anything i just stated
The-Human-Reaper-Is-Salvageable. And what about the derelict reaper? I'm sure TIM will find enough recources to make his wish come true.
c) Means to an end buddy, if TIM thinks it will help in the ending of the reaper threat, or that he can control it somehow, he bloody well will.

Mate, your smartassness is not appreciated. Please, tell me why those three unproven "facts" dismiss a very valid argument.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 03 octobre 2010 - 12:38 .

[smudboy]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

UN disagrees with you: the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

[/quote]
So TIM is nullifying, impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise on an equal footing, the human rights of humans?  Again, show me where TIM is a racist; that is, impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise on an equal footing on the human rights of non-humans.

[quote]
It's a moral issue. We are not trying to prove if TIM is a good leader or not. He also forgot to mention it to Shepard...again. Old age I guess.
[/quote]
So what are you trying to prove?  He lied to get the job done.  This is no different than a military leader withholding information.  TIM couldn't have mentioned anything about Turians at all.  The intent was to get Shepard to believe that the ship was disabled so that they wouldn't behave like it was a trap.

[quote]
Eh ? How is raiding a ship worse than walking into a trap ?
[/quote]
When you're raiding a ship's database which is a trap.

[quote]
Yeah, I bet SB's secretary forgot to put in the right directory. It's clear that he killed a Pope and abducted and experimented on live asari. I am going to guess that he didn't let them go either.
[/quote]
It's clear that Cerberus killed the Pope, the equivalent argument of what the scientists on Pragia or what Archer did: TIM wasn't involved.

[quote]
It's still obvious that TIM attacked the Migrant Fleet in a way, and every ship has unarmed civilians.
[/quote]
No, it's obvious that Cerberus did something to the Migrant Fleet in someway, whose details are unclear.

[quote]
Why shouldn't he ? After all, for all we know, he didn't share specific info about his team or the operation that they were working on. All he had to do was send him the Cerberus transmitter, which would lead him to Cerberus. Either way, this makes Cerberus, if not an evil organization, a renegade one.
[/quote]
How so?  It could still be part of the Alliance and still conduct the same actions: stop any infiltrators.

Admiral Kahoku, by getting the location of the Cerberus intel, promised to give any info on the Cerberus systems to the SB.  While talking to the SB agent, Shepard's dialog wheel response to this is "That's treason!"

[quote]
I have to disagree, the victims of the Dragon's teeth would have to be burried in a mass grave, or several group graves. The Alliance would have to pay for the ceremony. The creepers are probably either humans or protheans that were collected by the Thorian. Both husks and Thorian Creepers don't deserve being used as tools.
[/quote]
The victim's of Dragon's Teeth become husks.  Although burning is a form of disposal, I see nothing wrong with conducting experiments on cadavers.  Why would the Alliance care about a ceremony of unidentifiable bodies?  Again, if the narrative provided some information on husks that said they were distinguishable via DNA to be a certain person, then there'd be grounds to think this way, but there isn't.  We don't know what huskifying does.  The creepers are more likely to be clones, just like Shiala.

Both husks and creepers are DEAD and and/or MINDLESS.  They're working on mice, and dead mice.

[quote]
You are still repeating the same thing that I have replied with the above post. Is TIM a bad guy ? Yes or No ? It makes no sense to skip all the evidence that we have just because it's not part of ME2. In fact, if we are not trying to justify what a random Shepard did, excluding this material makes no sense at all.
[/quote]
No: there is no evidence to support that he is a bad guy.

It makes COMPLETE SENSE because we're talking about ME2 and ONLY ME2.  That is, TO SAVE OR DESTROY THE BASE.  This is not about TIM and your subjective opinion about him.  This is not about Cerberus and your subjective opinion about it.  This is not about some story you read in some book or comic.  This is about the base.

[quote]
Moralism is an idiocy now ?
[/quote]
In your world, maybe.  I don't know where you're coming from.

[quote]
This is actually a good argument to use against Cerberus actually :happy:, anyway, by 'humanity' I meant 'morality'  or if you are feeling dramatic, 'soul'. The essence of the CB argument is this:
Would you risk giving Cerberus the ability to build a Reaper, a helpful tool in ME3, even though you know they would use it against the Reapers and beyond ? Is the priiiiize worth the risk ? Would you sell your soul to the devil ? 
[/quote]
And by all life, I meant all life.  Cause Reapers are gonna destroy it.

I would risk giving ANYONE the ability to build a Reaper.

The prize is worth the risk.

I have no soul to sell, unless you've never read Descartes and you're a romantic nutjob who doesn't understand 500 year old philosophy of mind, or unless you're using a lame ass colloquialism that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, or unless you're referring to my mind.  Either way you're asking pointless questions.

[quote]
You are missing the point of the Pragia mission. They were hiding something from TIM, we don't know what (probably Jack or the high mortality rates), but the purpose of the facility didn't change. TIM started this operation so that he could abduct/buy kids with biotics and experiment on them. Heck, if that doesn't make him an evil character, then infiltrating Ascension or blowing up a ship carrying Eezo in order to turn some of the kids of a colony (the other simply died) biotic doesn't count ?
[/quote]
They weren't submitting operation logs.
"If we get results he won't care what we did.  But if he knew..."

Considering TIM's view of humanity, we can safely assume if they were torturing or killing children, he wouldn't stand for it.  Or is your view of his racism a sham, too, because he's "evil"?

[quote]
My initial question was this: Do you think that TIM is an immoral character ? Taking the canon supplement material into account, what do you say ?[/quote]
I do not think TIM is immoral.  The narrative did not give me any evidence to think as such.

Canon supplemental material = moot.  Go to an Ascension or other thread if you want to debate that.

Modifié par smudboy, 03 octobre 2010 - 12:56 .

[charmingcharlie]

DO NOT READ THIS POST IF YOU DON'T WANT THE LATEST MASS EFFECT BOOK SPOILED.







I am wondering has it occured to anyone that what you do with the collector base is pretty much irrelevant with regards to Mass Effect 3 ?  After all we have seen Bioware do this before in Mass Effect 1.  The decision to save the council is a pretty major decision yet it has very little impact on Mass Effect 2.

I personally believe it will be the same situation with the Collector base in Mass Effect 3.  We have already seen hints of it in the latest ME book and the Shadow Broker DLC.  In the book The Illusive Man uses technology salvaged from the collector base.  In the Shadow Broker DLC if you saved the base you get the Shadow Broker saying "I can use the IFF to take over the Collector Base".  If you destroyed the base you get the Shadow Broker saying "I can use the IFF to salvage technology from the destroyed Collector Base".  In other words with the Shadow Broker DLC a heavy hint is given that no matter what you did with the base it will be pretty much irrelevant when it comes to ME 3.

So save the base or destroy at the end of the day it won't really matter the only impact will be a few changes in dialogue.

[Arijharn]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

You dismiss this claim on those points?

a) This has nothing to do with anything i just stated

Consider then, if it takes this location for the Collectors to finish the creation of a Reaper, then it would take this population (and more to get to the point where the Collectors were before) to complete. How is this even doable for any organisation let alone one that only has, according to EDI, only 150 operatives 'spread' amongst 3 cells? In other words; how is 150 operatives even going to abduct a continent's worth of people let alone an entire planet?

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
The-Human-Reaper-Is-Salvageable. And what about the derelict reaper? I'm sure TIM will find enough recources to make his wish come true.

I'm sure he will, but you don't need to create a Reaper in order to understand it. As you've said it's in a dank basement. Also the derelict reaper is not salvagable because it's crushed into insignificance in the core of a brown dwarf. As you know from the game (and probably elsewhere) a brown dwarf is a failed star because it doesn't have the mass to become one. It does have considerable mass however, and it does have considerable gravity. You know how submarines are built in a certain way in order to operate in the depths of an ocean? Well consider that amount of force per square inch but drastically increased. It plain is just not survivable.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
c) Means to an end buddy, if TIM thinks it will help in the ending of the reaper threat, or that he can control it somehow, he bloody well will.

The whole idea is to understand how the Reapers work, it is not logical (as I see it) to immediately jump to the extreme of the construction of a Reaper. The Base will give us (well, we hope at least ) technical schematics of Reaper construction that lies independent of whether or not the Human-Reaper was finished. Stuff like; how many weapons it will have, structural placement and integrity, hints on how Indoctrination works (and presumably how to defeat it), kinetic barrier shield strength and rate of generation, the size of it's mass effect core etc. General design schematics.

We 'pro-Cerberus' people like to (overuse) a certain analogy so I'm surprised you haven't read it. Basically it's like this: If you hijacked an automobile factory you gain a lot of knowledge about the construction of cars, but you aren't actually under any obligation to build them yourself. You know how it's structural wielding works, and all the bobs and pieces that goes up to make a car. However, you also learn a lot about how the automobile factory is set up, how it produces it, what sort of assembly robots it uses and stuff like their load limits. All sorts of potentially useful information that isn't actually directly tied to an automobile but could be useful nonetheless.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Mate, your smartassness is not appreciated. Please, tell me why those three unproven "facts" dismiss a very valid argument.

Apologies, however you must understand that this sort of stuff has been brought up before (and will likely be brought up again) and it is getting somewhat tiring when we've been over this already. Not your fault of course but it is getting to the point that someone should just put up a sticky about it

I'm more than sure that TIM would be very willing to get his hands dirty, but the sheer logistics involved with anything to do with creating their own reaper (if I even understand what you mean correctly) is mind boggling for one and I strongly doubt that TIM would do it because there's a difference between a belief in transhumanism I feel, and essentially rendering us down into bonemeal.
TIM is not Seele from Neon Genesis Evangelion, so I don't think he's that interested in a Human Instrumentality Project (this may be a little obscure, but you should totally watch that anime (if you like them) -- in a nutshell, Seele wants the HIP and when it occurs every single human will be rendered down into LCL... yeah, bizarre I know).

[Gibb_Shepard]

Arijharn wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

You dismiss this claim on those points?

a) This has nothing to do with anything i just stated

Consider then, if it takes this location for the Collectors to finish the creation of a Reaper, then it would take this population (and more to get to the point where the Collectors were before) to complete. How is this even doable for any organisation let alone one that only has, according to EDI, only 150 operatives 'spread' amongst 3 cells? In other words; how is 150 operatives even going to abduct a continent's worth of people let alone an entire planet?

I never said TIM would go around abducting colonies, not once did i even insinuate it, so this point is invalid.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
The-Human-Reaper-Is-Salvageable. And what about the derelict reaper? I'm sure TIM will find enough recources to make his wish come true.

I'm sure he will, but you don't need to create a Reaper in order to understand it. As you've said it's in a dank basement. Also the derelict reaper is not salvagable because it's crushed into insignificance in the core of a brown dwarf. As you know from the game (and probably elsewhere) a brown dwarf is a failed star because it doesn't have the mass to become one. It does have considerable mass however, and it does have considerable gravity. You know how submarines are built in a certain way in order to operate in the depths of an ocean? Well consider that amount of force per square inch but drastically increased. It plain is just not survivable.

Okay, good, so we're both in agreement that TIM can find a way to create a reaper. That disregards this point.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
c) Means to an end buddy, if TIM thinks it will help in the ending of the reaper threat, or that he can control it somehow, he bloody well will.

The whole idea is to understand how the Reapers work, it is not logical (as I see it) to immediately jump to the extreme of the construction of a Reaper. The Base will give us (well, we hope at least ) technical schematics of Reaper construction that lies independent of whether or not the Human-Reaper was finished. Stuff like; how many weapons it will have, structural placement and integrity, hints on how Indoctrination works (and presumably how to defeat it), kinetic barrier shield strength and rate of generation, the size of it's mass effect core etc. General design schematics.

I agree, that is what i would want from the collector base. But as we all know, TIM WILL go to extreme lengths to get the job done. I'm not saying that he will start building a reaper from day dot, but after he learns more about reaper design, construction and general schematics, whose to say he will not believe that he has the wisdom to construct and control his own reaper? As much as pro-cerberus people think they know TIM's personality, motives and intentions, the truth is we did not see enough of TIM to know exactly how far TIM will go to attain his own version of success.

We 'pro-Cerberus' people like to (overuse) a certain analogy so I'm surprised you haven't read it. Basically it's like this: If you hijacked an automobile factory you gain a lot of knowledge about the construction of cars, but you aren't actually under any obligation to build them yourself. You know how it's structural wielding works, and all the bobs and pieces that goes up to make a car. However, you also learn a lot about how the automobile factory is set up, how it produces it, what sort of assembly robots it uses and stuff like their load limits. All sorts of potentially useful information that isn't actually directly tied to an automobile but could be useful nonetheless.

See above.

[/i][i]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Mate, your smartassness is not appreciated. Please, tell me why those three unproven "facts" dismiss a very valid argument.

Apologies, however you must understand that this sort of stuff has been brought up before (and will likely be brought up again) and it is getting somewhat tiring when we've been over this already. Not your fault of course but it is getting to the point that someone should just put up a sticky about it

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 03 octobre 2010 - 01:47 .

[Arijharn]

You purposely just totally twisted what I said to suit your own argument and you get up with me about my 'smartassness.'



If TIM wants to create a Reaper, how on earth is he going to do it if he doesn't abduct anyone? Because he sure as hell isn't going to do it even considering if by miracle he has 150 'volunteers' in his own organisation? I mean, seriously, think this through.



'I'm sure he will' doesn't mean I agree with you in your basic point; it means 'TIM is willing to get his hands dirty' but if you want to misconstrue what I said, all the more power to you.

[Phaedon]

[quote]smudboy wrote...
So TIM is nullifying, impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise on an equal footing, the human rights of humans?  Again, show me where TIM is a racist; that is, impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise on an equal footing on the human rights of non-humans.[/quote]
I have already linked you to my post. No need to
recycle the same arguments twice.
[quote]
So what are you trying to prove?  He lied to get the job done.  This is no different than a military leader withholding information.  TIM couldn't have mentioned anything about Turians at all.  The intent was to get Shepard to believe that the ship was disabled so that they wouldn't behave like it was a trap.[/quote]
No point trusting someone who has no point lying to you.

[quote]
When you're raiding a ship's database which is a trap.[/quote]
Firewalls are still firewalls. EDI bypassing them
before or after a firefight wouldn’t change anything.
[quote]
It's clear that Cerberus killed the Pope, the equivalent argument of what the scientists on Pragia or what Archer did: TIM wasn't involved.[/quote]
Are you going to dismiss all the Cerberus operations
that make him look bad ? There is no indication that this operation went rogue.
It would make no sense.
[quote]
No, it's obvious that Cerberus did something to the Migrant Fleet in someway, whose details are unclear.[/quote]
Something violent. And I am going to repeat myself by
saying that there are always unarmed civilians in the Migrant Fleet.
[quote]
How so?  It could still be part of the Alliance and still conduct the same actions: stop any infiltrators.

Admiral Kahoku, by getting the location of the Cerberus intel, promised to give any info on the Cerberus systems to the SB.  While talking to the SB agent, Shepard's dialog wheel response to this is "That's treason!"[/quote]
Saying that it may still be part of the Alliance is
speculation. Here are the facts: Cerberus put a transmitter near a Thresher Maw
nest, just like Akuze, lured a squad of marines, and killed an admiral so that
he couldn’t get the chance to give more information to Shepard or someone else.
There is no way to make Cerberus look good.
[quote]
The victim's of Dragon's Teeth become husks.  Although burning is a form of disposal, I see nothing wrong with conducting experiments on cadavers.  Why would the Alliance care about a ceremony of unidentifiable bodies?  Again, if the narrative provided some information on husks that said they were distinguishable via DNA to be a certain person, then there'd be grounds to think this way, but there isn't.  We don't know what huskifying does.  The creepers are more likely to be clones, just like Shiala.

Both husks and creepers are DEAD and and/or MINDLESS.  They're working on mice, and dead mice.[/quote]
Characterizing cadavers as dead mice is your opinion,
not the social standard. In fact, burial rights do exist: http://legal-diction...m/Burial Rights
[quote]
No: there is no evidence to support that he is a bad guy.

It makes COMPLETE SENSE because we're talking about ME2 and ONLY ME2.  That is, TO SAVE OR DESTROY THE BASE.  This is not about TIM and your subjective opinion about him.  This is not about Cerberus and your subjective opinion about it.  This is not about some story you read in some book or comic.  This is about the base.[/quote]
It’s the opposite actually. If you exclude all the ‘supplemental
material’, you lose all the facts and all you have is your subjective opinion.
The books leave you no room for interpretation, the writer explains the
situation at you. This is not about the base, I am pretty sure we haven’t been
arguing about it all this time. This about trusting TIM with the base.
[quote]
In your world, maybe.  I don't know where you're coming from.[/quote]
I asked you if you
consider morality an idiocy. This is not an answer.

[quote]
And by all life, I meant all life.  Cause Reapers are gonna destroy it.

I would risk giving ANYONE the ability to build a Reaper.[/quote]
That’s your right. If I could, I’d give it to the
Council. But I am not going to trust a guy who openly suggests using it ‘Beyond
the Reapers’ or makes the specific face that he does if you give him the base.

We should neither overestimate nor underestimate
the value of the base. I doubt it will help too much against the Reapers (At
best, they’ll just fix the Human Reaper.), but, it can cost the lives of many
of Cerberus’ enemies.



[quote]The prize is worth the risk.

I have no soul to sell, unless you've never read Descartes and you're a romantic nutjob who doesn't understand 500 year old philosophy of mind, or unless you're using a lame ass colloquialism that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, or unless you're referring to my mind.  Either way you're asking pointless questions.[/quote]
Am I ? I thought that the ME1 trailer asked ‘What’s
your humanity worth ?”. This is the big dilemma of the game.
[quote]
They weren't submitting operation logs.
"If we get results he won't care what we did.  But if he knew..."

Considering TIM's view of humanity, we can safely assume if they were torturing or killing children, he wouldn't stand for it.  Or is your view of his racism a sham, too, because he's "evil"?[/quote]
So, the operation went rogue before building the
facility ? Or perhaps it’s purpose was not to test biotics to kids but to build
a puppy factory ? Let’s not fool ourselves, testing biotics was the purpose
from the start. Sure, you can argue that it’s possible that if he knew that
children were dying, he’d stop at once, but that was not my argument. They are
still abducting children.
[quote]
I do not think TIM is immoral.  The narrative did not give me any evidence to think as such.

Canon supplemental material = moot.  Go to an Ascension or other thread if you want to debate that.
[/quote]
TIM is TIM. You can not support that he generally is
not a morally gray guy without taking any material that you have into account.
Your opinion can only be objective after you have seen everything there is see
in a situation.

[mosor]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...


I never said TIM would go around abducting colonies, not once did i even insinuate it, so this point is invalid.



Okay, good, so we're both in agreement that TIM can find a way to create a reaper. That disregards this point.


I agree, that is what i would want from the collector base. But as we all know, TIM WILL go to extreme lengths to get the job done. I'm not saying that he will start building a reaper from day dot, but after he learns more about reaper design, construction and general schematics, whose to say he will not believe that he has the wisdom to construct and control his own reaper? As much as pro-cerberus people think they know TIM's personality, motives and intentions, the truth is we did not see enough of TIM to know exactly how far TIM will go to attain his own version of success.

I think the point you're overlooking is the practicality of building a reaper. Could it be done in this sci-fi universe? Sure, I guess, especially if you want to stretch believability. TIM is capable of anything if you're not conscerned with believability. You might as well state he will develop a virus to so can mind control everyone in the galaxy or clone  billions asari ardat yakshi and set them loose on Thessia (their powers negated toward humanity of course). The difference is, people like us don't see him as a comic book supervillian and I don't think he's presented in game as such.

Modifié par mosor, 03 octobre 2010 - 02:08 .

[Phaedon]

Arijharn wrote...

You purposely just totally twisted what I said to suit your own argument and you get up with me about my 'smartassness.'

If TIM wants to create a Reaper, how on earth is he going to do it if he doesn't abduct anyone? Because he sure as hell isn't going to do it even considering if by miracle he has 150 'volunteers' in his own organisation? I mean, seriously, think this through.

'I'm sure he will' doesn't mean I agree with you in your basic point; it means 'TIM is willing to get his hands dirty' but if you want to misconstrue what I said, all the more power to you.

I don't want to take a side in this argument, but we don't know if filling a Reaper with genetic material changes anything. The Human Reaper wasn't ready, not only because there wasn't enough human genetic material available, but because the superstructure was incomplete as well, Reapers have special shells around their 'skeletons'. For all we know, the genetic material is the 'passenger' of the 'arc', if you get what I mean.

[DPSSOC]

tommyt_1994 wrote...
Also, it seems to be a pretty general consensus that uniting the galaxy is vital in defeating the reapers, (including the council who has been reluctant to believe Shep so far) the question is, which CB choice makes uniting the galaxy more plausible? Not looking at this like a game, but by role-playing, do you really believe that anyone will trust/believe a Shepard aligned with Cerberus? Shep could call up the council and say "Hey come into the galactic core to see this cool base I found. I have some little piece of equipment I found on a reaper (no one believes in them by the way) that will make it so your ships can pass through this relay that no ship has every returned from. Except for my ship of course, which I have no proof of, you'll just have to take my Terrorist group-aligned word for it. (I know their not actually terrorists by definition but everyone else in the galaxy see's them as such) OH! and just disregard the Cerberus troops/Scientists crawling all over it, they're cool with you looking around and they pinkie-swore they woudn't attack you."

 
You raise a fair point but, if we're not looking at this like a game, it'd be a simple matter to say to the Council, "Give me a Spectre, hell give me a few Spectres, I will take them through the Omega 4 Relay on my ship (thus putting yourself in as much danger as the Spectres) and they can take a look around the base to confirm what I`ve told you.  Afterwards, if you wish, I can shuttle scientists as well as a Council approved overseer onto the base to study it."  Thus you confirm what you've told them as well as offerring relatively secure access to the base.  Now we probably won't have that option but, that's how I'd play it if we could.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 03 octobre 2010 - 02:11 .

[Arijharn]

Phaedon wrote...

I don't want to take a side in this argument, but we don't know if filling a Reaper with genetic material changes anything. The Human Reaper wasn't ready, not only because there wasn't enough human genetic material available, but because the superstructure was incomplete as well, Reapers have special shells around their 'skeletons'. For all we know, the genetic material is the 'passenger' of the 'arc', if you get what I mean.

...Wha-? I get what you mean but that's totally random!

You may as well say that Asari Ardat-Yaksi is the staple ingredient in a Batarian barquat then

You could be right of course, but it would still require millions of people to get even to the larva stages of the Human-Reaper. Even if TIM was a 'comic book supervillian' that would be a tall order for him to pull off. This is why I just think it an absolutely ridiculous argument to make because to meta-game (oh how I hate that word) you'd have to have a solution not just for the renegade's who save the base, but also the paragons (like me) and if you can have an acceptable solution for the permutations of savign or leaving the council to die, then you must have acceptable solutions for saving or destroying the CB.

[Phaedon]

Arijharn wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

I don't want to take a side in this argument, but we don't know if filling a Reaper with genetic material changes anything. The Human Reaper wasn't ready, not only because there wasn't enough human genetic material available, but because the superstructure was incomplete as well, Reapers have special shells around their 'skeletons'. For all we know, the genetic material is the 'passenger' of the 'arc', if you get what I mean.

...Wha-? I get what you mean but that's totally random!

You may as well say that Asari Ardat-Yaksi is the staple ingredient in a Batarian barquat then

You could be right of course, but it would still require millions of people to get even to the larva stages of the Human-Reaper. Even if TIM was a 'comic book supervillian' that would be a tall order for him to pull off. This is why I just think it an absolutely ridiculous argument to make because to meta-game (oh how I hate that word) you'd have to have a solution not just for the renegade's who save the base, but also the paragons (like me) and if you can have an acceptable solution for the permutations of savign or leaving the council to die, then you must have acceptable solutions for saving or destroying the CB.

My point is that it is possible that Reapers can work without organic material, you know, like the geth. The Organic material might not be needed at all... But either way, it took Cerberus years to replicate the Normandy, I doubt they can build a new Reaper from scratch. They'll probably fix the human one though.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Arijharn wrote...

You purposely just totally twisted what I said to suit your own argument and you get up with me about my 'smartassness.'

If TIM wants to create a Reaper, how on earth is he going to do it if he doesn't abduct anyone? Because he sure as hell isn't going to do it even considering if by miracle he has 150 'volunteers' in his own organisation? I mean, seriously, think this through.

'I'm sure he will' doesn't mean I agree with you in your basic point; it means 'TIM is willing to get his hands dirty' but if you want to misconstrue what I said, all the more power to you.

I in no way misconstrued what you said, my basic response was "TIM may eventually have the desire to go to extreme lengths (creating a reaper)" and your exact response to this was "I'm sure he will, but you don't need to create a Reaper in order to understand it. As you've said it's in a dank basement". How can that be misconstrued?

Basically what your argument comes down to is that you do not believe TIM can attain the resources needed to construct a reaper without abducting a few hundred colonies. Aside from my hyphenated sentence insinuating the human reaper being salvageable, and all of the stored genetic material that had not yet been pumped into the reaper; it is possible that after a long, thorough research of the collector base, cerberus's top scientists will find an alternate approach to creating a reaper. 

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 03 octobre 2010 - 02:20 .

[Arijharn]

Phaedon wrote...
But either way, it took Cerberus years to replicate the Normandy, I doubt they can build a new Reaper from scratch. They'll probably fix the human one though.

Lol, I'd so roll my eyes if BioWare took this route, then I'd probably sigh at the wasted opportunity. Then I'd probably laugh because by this time I just wouldn't be able to take the game 'seriously.'

[tommyt_1994]

DPSSOC wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...
Also, it seems to be a pretty general consensus that uniting the galaxy is vital in defeating the reapers, (including the council who has been reluctant to believe Shep so far) the question is, which CB choice makes uniting the galaxy more plausible? Not looking at this like a game, but by role-playing, do you really believe that anyone will trust/believe a Shepard aligned with Cerberus? Shep could call up the council and say "Hey come into the galactic core to see this cool base I found. I have some little piece of equipment I found on a reaper (no one believes in them by the way) that will make it so your ships can pass through this relay that no ship has every returned from. Except for my ship of course, which I have no proof of, you'll just have to take my Terrorist group-aligned word for it. (I know their not actually terrorists by definition but everyone else in the galaxy see's them as such) OH! and just disregard the Cerberus troops/Scientists crawling all over it, they're cool with you looking around and they pinkie-swore they woudn't attack you."

 
You raise a fair point but, if we're not looking at this like a game, it'd be a simple matter to say to the Council, "Give me a Spectre, hell give me a few Spectres, I will take them through the Omega 4 Relay on my ship (thus putting yourself in as much danger as the Spectres) and they can take a look around the base to confirm what I`ve told you.  Afterwards, if you wish, I can shuttle scientists as well as a Council approved overseer onto the base to study it."  Thus you confirm what you've told them as well as offerring relatively secure access to the base.  Now we probably won't have that option but, that's how I'd play it if we could.

That's a fair point, but it still leaves convincing TIM to let all of this go down an issue. And I really wouldn't be suprised if TIM decided he wanted a few toy spectre's while they were looking around.

[Arijharn]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I in no way misconstrued what you said, my basic response was "TIM may eventually have the desire to go to extreme lengths (creating a reaper)" and your exact response to this was "I'm sure he will, but you don't need to create a Reaper in order to understand it. As you've said it's in a dank basement". How can that be misconstrued?

Because I said it isn't ever what he said he wanted and it flies in the face of what he's done in this game. Implanting someone with Reaper tech to study Indoctrination does not mean he wants to create his own Reaper... I honestly have no idea how you jumped to this conclusion.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Basically what your argument comes down to is that you do not believe TIM can attain the resources needed to construct a reaper without abducting a few hundred colonies.

No; I was pointing out why your reasoning was flawed. Or I thought I was, but considering we're still talking about this, then I obviously failed.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Aside from my hyphenated sentence insinuating the human reaper being salvageable, and all of the stored genetic material that had not yet been pumped into the reaper; it is possible that after a long, thorough research of the collector base, cerberus's top scientists will find an alternate approach to creating a reaper. 

Okay sure, anything is possible with science in the Mass Effect series but there are a lot of flaws even with the idea that they want to build their own Reaper (this is another one of those sections were I try to point out why you're reasoning is flawed, I'm not agreeing with you):
a) In advance of the Reaper invasion or during it, they will not have enough time to construct a reaper due to the chaos of the time period. This is also ignoring all those situations that I've outlined above as to why it isn't feasible in the first place, because with the chaos involved logistics would be even more strained.
They wouldn't be able to make many Reapers.
c) After defeating the Reaper menace presumably every species now has a good understanding of Reaper capabilities anyway, ergo they'll be better able to defend and presumably smash any 'insurgent' Reaper threat.

Modifié par Arijharn, 03 octobre 2010 - 02:28 .

[mosor]

Arijharn wrote...

Okay sure, anything is possible with science in the Mass Effect series but there are a lot of flaws even with the idea that they want to build their own Reaper (this is another one of those sections were I try to point out why you're reasoning is flawed, I'm not agreeing with you):
a) In advance of the Reaper invasion or during it, they will not have enough time to construct a reaper due to the chaos of the time period. This is also ignoring all those situations that I've outlined above as to why it isn't feasible in the first place, because with the chaos involved logistics would be even more strained.
They wouldn't be able to make many Reapers.
c) After defeating the Reaper menace presumably every species now has a good understanding of Reaper capabilities anyway, ergo they'll be better able to defend and presumably smash any 'insurgent' Reaper threat.

This argument really shows the differenc between people who argue the base should be saved and those who favor destroying.

People who argue for it's destruction argue what is possible. Frankly anything is possible in sci-fi if you add in a good dose of bad writing.

People who argue to save the base argue what is probable and believable. TIM creating his own reaper simply isn't practical, probable or even really believable.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Arijharn wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I in no way misconstrued what you said, my basic response was "TIM may eventually have the desire to go to extreme lengths (creating a reaper)" and your exact response to this was "I'm sure he will, but you don't need to create a Reaper in order to understand it. As you've said it's in a dank basement". How can that be misconstrued?

Because I said it isn't ever what he said he wanted and it flies in the face of what he's done in this game. Implanting someone with Reaper tech to study Indoctrination does not mean he wants to create his own Reaper... I honestly have no idea how you jumped to this conclusion.

As i have already stated to you, you do not know TIM. As much as you'd like to, you do not know how far he will go to attain his own version of success.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Basically what your argument comes down to is that you do not believe TIM can attain the resources needed to construct a reaper without abducting a few hundred colonies.

No; I was pointing out why your reasoning was flawed. Or I thought I was, but considering we're still talking about this, then I obviously failed.

You assume my reasoning is flawed? Funny, i was quite sure yours was. 

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Aside from my hyphenated sentence insinuating the human reaper being salvageable, and all of the stored genetic material that had not yet been pumped into the reaper; it is possible that after a long, thorough research of the collector base, cerberus's top scientists will find an alternate approach to creating a reaper. 

Okay sure, anything is possible with science in the Mass Effect series but there are a lot of flaws even with the idea that they want to build their own Reaper (this is another one of those sections were I try to point out why you're reasoning is flawed, I'm not agreeing with you):
a) In advance of the Reaper invasion or during it, they will not have enough time to construct a reaper due to the chaos of the time period. This is also ignoring all those situations that I've outlined above as to why it isn't feasible in the first place, because with the chaos involved logistics would be even more strained.
They wouldn't be able to make many Reapers.
c) After defeating the Reaper menace presumably every species now has a good understanding of Reaper capabilities anyway, ergo they'll be better able to defend and presumably smash any 'insurgent' Reaper threat.

You have no idea when the reaper invasion will come to fruition, you have no idea what TIM would utilise "his" reaper for (I never said he would build a fleet), and i don't know what the hell you're getting at with the last point.

I have basically just repeated myself, and will evidently continue to do so if i carry on with this argument. You obviously have a firm belief that TIM will use the base for the greater good, and that belief obviously cannot be budged in any way. I'll take my leave.

[Dean_the_Young]

No, no, TIM building another Reaper is a perfectly valid conclusion. It only requires you to accept some modest things.



Modest measures such that an organization with less than two hundred people, many of whom likely wouldn't condone or support this, is going reverse its policies to date and surpass all known capacity and ability to attack and kidnap billions of people of one of the five strongest powers in the universe despite the increasingly combined effort of the trillions of the rest of the Council space, starting at the very least a galactic war against, all with the intent of building a handful of maybe-controllable Reapers which will presumably match the thousands+ of Reapers coming.



And this is going to be done by an organization who's headquarters can be found out and attacked (Retribution), has the daily personal habits of its leader up for sale (the Shadow Broker), and can only build the Reapers at a single location that can be reached at any time by anyone with help from Commander Shepard. And presumably without anyone within the organization turning against this scheme at all.







Really, it's the only logical explanation.

[mosor]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I in no way misconstrued what you said, my basic response was "TIM may eventually have the desire to go to extreme lengths (creating a reaper)" and your exact response to this was "I'm sure he will, but you don't need to create a Reaper in order to understand it. As you've said it's in a dank basement". How can that be misconstrued?

Because I said it isn't ever what he said he wanted and it flies in the face of what he's done in this game. Implanting someone with Reaper tech to study Indoctrination does not mean he wants to create his own Reaper... I honestly have no idea how you jumped to this conclusion.

As i have already stated to you, you do not know TIM. As much as you'd like to, you do not know how far he will go to attain his own version of success.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Basically what your argument comes down to is that you do not believe TIM can attain the resources needed to construct a reaper without abducting a few hundred colonies.

No; I was pointing out why your reasoning was flawed. Or I thought I was, but considering we're still talking about this, then I obviously failed.

You assume my reasoning is flawed? Funny, i was quite sure yours was. 

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Aside from my hyphenated sentence insinuating the human reaper being salvageable, and all of the stored genetic material that had not yet been pumped into the reaper; it is possible that after a long, thorough research of the collector base, cerberus's top scientists will find an alternate approach to creating a reaper. 

Okay sure, anything is possible with science in the Mass Effect series but there are a lot of flaws even with the idea that they want to build their own Reaper (this is another one of those sections were I try to point out why you're reasoning is flawed, I'm not agreeing with you):
a) In advance of the Reaper invasion or during it, they will not have enough time to construct a reaper due to the chaos of the time period. This is also ignoring all those situations that I've outlined above as to why it isn't feasible in the first place, because with the chaos involved logistics would be even more strained.
They wouldn't be able to make many Reapers.
c) After defeating the Reaper menace presumably every species now has a good understanding of Reaper capabilities anyway, ergo they'll be better able to defend and presumably smash any 'insurgent' Reaper threat.

You have no idea when the reaper invasion will come to fruition, you have no idea what TIM would utilise "his" reaper for (I never said he would build a fleet), and i don't know what the hell you're getting at with the last point.

I have basically just repeated myself, and will evidently continue to do so if i carry on with this argument. You obviously have a firm belief that TIM will use the base for the greater good, and that belief obviously cannot be budged in any way. I'll take my leave.

Arijharn doesn't fully trust TIM. He's said as much in previous posts. He's just taking issue with your theory of a possible use of the base and stating the theory is flawed. Which in my opinion it is. Not saying that TIM isn't going to use the base for power, and galactic harm. He very well may just do that. However, if he does do it, in all probability it won't be by creating a reaper.

Modifié par mosor, 03 octobre 2010 - 02:58 .

[Arijharn]

Gibb, I'd like to direct you to Dean's post:

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, no, TIM building another Reaper is a perfectly valid conclusion. It only requires you to accept some modest things.

Modest measures such that an organization with less than two hundred people, many of whom likely wouldn't condone or support this, is going reverse its policies to date and surpass all known capacity and ability to attack and kidnap billions of people of one of the five strongest powers in the universe despite the increasingly combined effort of the trillions of the rest of the Council space, starting at the very least a galactic war against, all with the intent of building a handful of maybe-controllable Reapers which will presumably match the thousands+ of Reapers coming.

And this is going to be done by an organization who's headquarters can be found out and attacked (Retribution), has the daily personal habits of its leader up for sale (the Shadow Broker), and can only build the Reapers at a single location that can be reached at any time by anyone with help from Commander Shepard. And presumably without anyone within the organization turning against this scheme at all.



Really, it's the only logical explanation.

Thank you. Gibb_Shepard, I already said this to you in my very second post in reply to you. As I see it, your theory is basically formed when Shephard had the option to say: "You're completely ruthless. Next thing I know is that you'll make your own Reaper" to which TIM says something along the lines of "I'm willing to do what needs to be done in order to combat and stop the Reapers"

You say that this is exactly what TIM wants, I (and others contend) that this statement of Shephard's was completely hyperbole. Along the lines of an advertising slogan that said: "The burgers are better at Hungry Jacks" (insert Burger King if that's the company in your country). Of course, one would ask yourself: "Are they really? Not by any scientific measurement at least"

You say that I don't know TIM for sure. Of course I don't, but I know that he's willing to stop the Reapers, and I know that the sheer logistical effort needed to create a Reaper is such a wild eyed fantasy that TIM couldn't seriously entertain the notion if he wanted too. His modus operandi is the 'protection and advancement of the human race" and I'm quite certain (no, absolutely positive) that this doesn't lie in construction of a Human-Reaper because that is sheer lunacy. Say what you will about TIM, but he isn't stark raving mad. He's egotistical maybe, and possibly egocentric but he isn't stark raving mad.

[Flamewielder]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...
I blew up the base because, as a paragon, I believe in virtue ethics over consequentialism. So far, Cerberus has demonstrated they will balk at nothing to achieve their goals. Their people have as little regard for individuals ar Reapers do: that's why Reapers believe they do us a service by pulping us into their idea of the pinnacle of human evolution. As a paragon Shepard, handing Cerberus the base was unacceptable. Respect for individual life is what sets us apart from the Reapers, I'm not about to prove we're just as bad as them by handing over the base to people who will have no compuction about sacrificing 99% of humans if they can ultimately save 1% and destroy the Reapers, calling it a great victory...

I think you're highly unrealistically exaggerating what Cerberus would do with the base. However, if faced with the choice of saving 0% of 1% of the galaxy, I'd prefer that choice be placed in the hands of someone with the balls to make it.

Makes perfect sense from a renegade perspective. As my disclamer stated, my Shepard is a paragon. Paragons decide on principles, Renegades decide on consequences. Individualism works only as long as you believe individual lives are worth protecting. If you start treating individual lives as a necessary sacrifice, you get on the slippery slope towards Reaper thinking: individuality is overrated, let's evolve into the next, higher stage of evolution. If Cerberus had been using volunteers in their experiments, it would be a different question. They usually don't. Ask corporal Thoombs... or sole survivor Shepard.

My paragade  Shep DID hand over the base to TIM, just to explore that storyline and I don't expect it will make such a big difference in ME3. 

Failures are to be expected when you're doing what Cerberus does. What they do is high risk and even higher reward. Bringing Shepard back from the dead and giving him the Normandy SR2 alone outweigh all the failures they've had. Because it is Cerberus's initiative that will give Shepard the ability to save the galaxy.

Not in my paragon Shep's game it won't... And from the perspective of the people who were sacrificed in Cerberus' experiments without being asked for their opinion, it makes no difference wether the Reapers win or not: they're dead anyway. The Reapers will be stopped in ME3, wether we saved the base or not. What will change is how humanity will be perceived on the Galactic stage. Paragon Shep will leave behind the same loose multi-species council space where humanity will be liked but more or less on the same level as everybody else. Renegade Shep will leave a slightly dominant humanity in charge with a bunch of resentful aliens gunning for them. Whatever tickles the player's fancy.

As for the Reapers "wanting" the organics to find the base, I don't think it was their intent. They could have just unlocked the Omega-4 relay if they did. But my argument still stands: no technology mastered by the Reapers will be a decisive factor. Cerberus' big mass effect gun killed ONE Reaper. The alliance managed that with luck and a human spectre... and a dozen cruisers. You'll need more than that to tip the balance and that'll come from another quarter (like the "dark energy" deus ex machina we can feel is coming). Is a renegade Shep justified to hand over the base to Cerberus? I'm sure he feels he is. Can a paragon Shep hand over advanced tech to an organisation who's demonstarted to be either a) utterly amoral in its practices, or who's leadership is unable to curb the excesses of its more fanatical devotees.

A paragon Cerberus would have asked for volunteers and (judging from the 76% of players who play a paragon Shep), would have had no trouble finding enough for their experiments without sending a bunch of Alliance Marines into a thresher maw's nest or torturing children bought from slavers. Just sayin'...

[mosor]

Flamewielder wrote...

 Paragon Shep will leave behind the same loose multi-species council space where humanity will be liked but more or less on the same level as everybody else. Renegade Shep will leave a slightly dominant humanity in charge with a bunch of resentful aliens gunning for them. Whatever tickles the player's fancy.

Just slightly dominant and leaving  around aliens strong enough to gun for humanity? Your Shepard obviously isn't renegade enough.

Modifié par mosor, 03 octobre 2010 - 03:17 .