2146 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

I have already linked you to my post. No need to
recycle the same arguments twice.
[/quote]
Yet you still have no evidence to show that TIM is racist.

[quote]
No point trusting someone who has no point lying to you.
[/quote]
I'm not big on the trust either, but I do trust him to use the base to fight the Reapers.

[quote]
Firewalls are still firewalls. EDI bypassing them
before or after a firefight wouldn’t change anything.
[/quote]
What's your point?

[quote]
Are you going to dismiss all the Cerberus operations
that make him look bad ? There is no indication that this operation went rogue.
It would make no sense.
[/quote]
Until it says TIM was involved, you're speculating.

[quote]
Something violent. And I am going to repeat myself by
saying that there are always unarmed civilians in the Migrant Fleet.
[/quote]
It doesn't matter.  The narrative gives us two accounts: the Quarians and Miranda.

[quote]
Saying that it may still be part of the Alliance is
speculation. Here are the facts: Cerberus put a transmitter near a Thresher Maw
nest, just like Akuze, lured a squad of marines, and killed an admiral so that
he couldn’t get the chance to give more information to Shepard or someone else.
There is no way to make Cerberus look good.
[/quote]
Yet none of this changes the fact that Kahoku is still a traitor.

[quote]
Characterizing cadavers as dead mice is your opinion,
not the social standard. In fact, burial rights do exist: http://legal-diction...m/Burial Rights
[/quote]
They weren't present in the narrative, nor was this issue raised.  Irrelevant.

[quote]
It’s the opposite actually. If you exclude all the ‘supplemental
material’, you lose all the facts and all you have is your subjective opinion.
The books leave you no room for interpretation, the writer explains the
situation at you. This is not about the base, I am pretty sure we haven’t been
arguing about it all this time. This about trusting TIM with the base.
[/quote]
All supplemental material is irrelevant.

I cannot base my opinion of saving/destroying the base on some other story.

[quote]
I asked you if you
consider morality an idiocy. This is not an answer.
[/quote]
Morality of what?

[quote]
That’s your right. If I could, I’d give it to the
Council. But I am not going to trust a guy who openly suggests using it ‘Beyond
the Reapers’ or makes the specific face that he does if you give him the base.
[/quote]
It doesn't matter whom we give it to, it should still be studied.

[quote]
We should neither overestimate nor underestimate
the value of the base. I doubt it will help too much against the Reapers (At
best, they’ll just fix the Human Reaper.), but, it can cost the lives of many
of Cerberus’ enemies.
[/quote]
This isn't about the possible value.  This is about being given an opportunity, and idiots are wasting it because TIM IS BAD.


[quote]
So, the operation went rogue before building the
facility ? Or perhaps it’s purpose was not to test biotics to kids but to build
a puppy factory ? Let’s not fool ourselves, testing biotics was the purpose
from the start. Sure, you can argue that it’s possible that if he knew that
children were dying, he’d stop at once, but that was not my argument. They are
still abducting children.
[/quote]
Then we're in agreement.  The scientists are to blame, and TIM had no knowledge of the experiments going on.

[quote]
TIM is TIM. You can not support that he generally is
not a morally gray guy without taking any material that you have into account.
Your opinion can only be objective after you have seen everything there is see
in a situation.[/quote]

My opinion of TIM is objective because it's based on objective obsersvations:  Pragia.  Overlord.

As soon as you throw in alternate material, your points become moot and useless.

[Finnish Dragon]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

The collector base was built primarily to build a reaper. The technology inside of said base is technology to build reapers. What do you think TIM, a man who has already implanted reaper tech into a human, will do with the base that was designed solely to build reapers?

It may seem like the technology will be helpful, IN THE RIGHT HANDS. We all know what TIM will do with the base, and i'm sure most of us can predict the repercussions that will come of it.

There is one way to resolve the problem of genetic material needed to build a Reaper. One can start tank growing humans like Saren and Okeer tank grew Krogans. In Mass Effect Universe the technology for that is already there. Also, Cerberus did have enough knowledge to restore Shepard to live. All of that is of course highly unethical but Cerberus as a renegade organisation doesn´t have high ethical standards especially when there is a known risk of extermination.

In practice, that would mean creating Frankenstein monster to fight against a monster which is menacing outside and is trying to exterminate us. In the end, the most efficient way to prevent that is to destroy the base which denies Cerberus to have those facilities at their hands.  

[chris025657]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Also, it seems to be a pretty general consensus that uniting the galaxy is vital in defeating the reapers, (including the council who has been reluctant to believe Shep so far) the question is, which CB choice makes uniting the galaxy more plausible? Not looking at this like a game, but by role-playing, do you really believe that anyone will trust/believe a Shepard aligned with Cerberus? Shep could call up the council and say "Hey come into the galactic core to see this cool base I found. I have some little piece of equipment I found on a reaper (no one believes in them by the way) that will make it so your ships can pass through this relay that no ship has every returned from. Except for my ship of course, which I have no proof of, you'll just have to take my Terrorist group-aligned word for it. (I know their not actually terrorists by definition but everyone else in the galaxy see's them as such) OH! and just disregard the Cerberus troops/Scientists crawling all over it, they're cool with you looking around and they pinkie-swore they woudn't attack you."

Several of the mission summaries make it clear that Cerberus is interested in maintaining galactic stability and strength in the face of the Reaper threat. They monitor the political situations on Tuchanka, the migrant fleet, and among the Geth and covertly prevented the assassination of the Council for this reason. The Illusive man tries to keep Cerberus a secret organization as he is aware that most organizations view Cerberus as a threat. We also know that Cerberus is not afraid to work through intermediaries to achieve results as shown by Cerberus influencing the Alliance to build the original Normandy. 

While I'm not sure what actions TIM will take with potential technology from the base, given these facts, I don't believe he would take a destabilizing action such as declaring that every species should fall in line behind Cerberus and humanity to defeat the Reapers.

[DPSSOC]

Flamewielder wrote...
A paragon Cerberus would have asked for volunteers and (judging from the 76% of players who play a paragon Shep), would have had no trouble finding enough for their experiments without sending a bunch of Alliance Marines into a thresher maw's nest or torturing children bought from slavers. Just sayin'...

You do recognize that the torture would have happened volunteers or no right?  I mean the whole hypothesis of the Teltin facility that they could use pain to eliminate mental barriers and improve biotic potential.  The things done to the children weren't done because they were unwilling participants they were done because that's how the people running the project felt they should go about trying to achieve their goal.  A Paragon Cerberus wouldn't have done most, if any, of their experiments.  They wouldn't have revived Shepard because A) It's desecrating the remains of the dead and  They don't have his consent.  Akuze, Teltin, Overlord, Binthu, none of these would have happened and as I've pointed out in other threads we don't know what gains were made by these.  We know they eventually failed but we have no idea what was gained before that failure.  For all we know Overlord could have stumbled across a means of utilizing VI's to assist people with autism or similar mental disabilities.

Experimental science is risky and it's messy especially when circumstances demand you do it quickly.  Paragons don't have the stomach for it, and were it up to you we'd all be in the same boat as the Hanar, Volus, and Elcor.

[Dean_the_Young]

Finnish Dragon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

The collector base was built primarily to build a reaper. The technology inside of said base is technology to build reapers. What do you think TIM, a man who has already implanted reaper tech into a human, will do with the base that was designed solely to build reapers?

It may seem like the technology will be helpful, IN THE RIGHT HANDS. We all know what TIM will do with the base, and i'm sure most of us can predict the repercussions that will come of it.

There is one way to resolve the problem of genetic material needed to build a Reaper. One can start tank growing humans like Saren and Okeer tank grew Krogans. In Mass Effect Universe the technology for that is already there. Also, Cerberus did have enough knowledge to restore Shepard to live. All of that is of course highly unethical but Cerberus as a renegade organisation doesn´t have high ethical standards especially when there is a known risk of extermination.

In practice, that would mean creating Frankenstein monster to fight against a monster which is menacing outside and is trying to exterminate us. In the end, the most efficient way to prevent that is to destroy the base which denies Cerberus to have those facilities at their hands.  

Wait, did you just say that the risk of a Frankeinstein monster outweighs space-Cthulu?


Frankenstein's monster wasn't even that monstrous. More ugly than anything else, and the rest resulted from how it was treated, and even that wasn't anything close to the threat the galaxy fails.

[Finnish Dragon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Finnish Dragon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

The collector base was built primarily to build a reaper. The technology inside of said base is technology to build reapers. What do you think TIM, a man who has already implanted reaper tech into a human, will do with the base that was designed solely to build reapers?

It may seem like the technology will be helpful, IN THE RIGHT HANDS. We all know what TIM will do with the base, and i'm sure most of us can predict the repercussions that will come of it.

There is one way to resolve the problem of genetic material needed to build a Reaper. One can start tank growing humans like Saren and Okeer tank grew Krogans. In Mass Effect Universe the technology for that is already there. Also, Cerberus did have enough knowledge to restore Shepard to live. All of that is of course highly unethical but Cerberus as a renegade organisation doesn´t have high ethical standards especially when there is a known risk of extermination.

In practice, that would mean creating Frankenstein monster to fight against a monster which is menacing outside and is trying to exterminate us. In the end, the most efficient way to prevent that is to destroy the base which denies Cerberus to have those facilities at their hands.  

Wait, did you just say that the risk of a Frankeinstein monster outweighs space-Cthulu?


Frankenstein's monster wasn't even that monstrous. More ugly than anything else, and the rest resulted from how it was treated, and even that wasn't anything close to the threat the galaxy fails.

Someone created the Reapers in the begin with. While building our own reapers would help humans to defeat to the Reaper incursion it would be very risky because "our" reapers could turn on us. In practice, it would be like becoming what humanity opposes, the reapers.

Speaking about the Frankenstein monster is a metaphor. That could help defeating the Reapers but the price could be too high and ethically very questionable. Let´s assume that it could be possible to tank grow humans and the Collector base was saved. The genetic material for the Reapers would take couple of weeks to grow like Okeer grew up Krogans at Korlus.

This "genetic" material would have the same DNA as the ordinary people but they would live only couple of weeks to become the building material for "our" reapers. My guess is that Cerberus would invent something like that to build up their own reapers because they have exploited colonists and alliance marines in the history. One of their scientists even exploited his very own brother.

I believe that the Reapers can be defeated and in doing so it would require research the technological paths that they don´t encourage. We know that they would like that the organic civilizations would follow a certain tech and in doing so to become predictable. In a war being predictable only helps your enemy to defeat you. One thing to research should be mass accelerator technology which an unknown civilization used to kill a Reaper 37 million years ago. 

[chris025657]

Finnish Dragon wrote...

Someone created the Reapers in the begin with. While building our own reapers would help humans to defeat to the Reaper incursion it would be very risky because "our" reapers could turn on us. In practice, it would be like becoming what humanity opposes, the reapers.

Speaking about the Frankenstein monster is a metaphor. That could help defeating the Reapers but the price could be too high and ethically very questionable. Let´s assume that it could be possible to tank grow humans and the Collector base was saved. The genetic material for the Reapers would take couple of weeks to grow like Okeer grew up Krogans at Korlus.

This "genetic" material would have the same DNA as the ordinary people but they would live only couple of weeks to become the building material for "our" reapers. My guess is that Cerberus would invent something like that to build up their own reapers because they have exploited colonists and alliance marines in the history. One of their scientists even exploited his very own brother.

I believe that the Reapers can be defeated and in doing so it would require research the technological paths that they don´t encourage. We know that they would like that the organic civilizations would follow a certain tech and in doing so to become predictable. In a war being predictable only helps your enemy to defeat you. One thing to research should be mass accelerator technology which an unknown civilization used to kill a Reaper 37 million years ago. 

Feeding tank-bred humans to the Collector base would avoid the political problems of abducting humans, but it would not be a free pass. You would still require vast amounts of resources to create the millions of humans necessary to complete the Reaper. Cerberus has limited resources and if reviving Shepard and rebuilding the Normandy was a significant investment, I doubt they would have the ability to do this. 

I can think of at least three additional reasons why TIM wouldn't build a Reaper. First, the Collector base builds fully sentient Reapers and there would be no way to control a human Reaper. Second, there is the threat of indoctrination and through the derelict Reaper experience, TIM is much more aware of this threat. Finally, there is tactical stupidity of this strategy. Even if TIM successfully acquires the vast resources needed to build a Reaper, and somehow has control over it, then what? Is he going to have one Reaper attempt to fight off the vast Reaper fleet? This strategy just isn't viable, and I'm sure TIM realizes this. 

[pf17456]

Those of you who argue that TIM is innocent of any immoral, unethical or criminal act committed by Cerebrus cells who possibly went rogue are also saying that TIM's ability to manage Cerebrus cells is questionable at best. In this regard TIM is more like a banker/funder than a leader suggesting that he as well cannot take credit for any of the successes of Cerebrus cells either. He may be in charge of handing out credits but that doesn't make him a leader. A leader is responsible for the actions of those being led.
If you argue that TIM awards contracts to those with the best ideas to advance humanity then Tim is the director of operations making him responsible for not only the outcomes of funded contracts but the means by which those contracts are achieved. TIM choosing to ignore or turn a blind eye to the methods chosen by funded cells does not make him any less responsible for what Cerebrus cells do, in fact adopting a position of 'do whatever to get results' is in and of itself irresponsible.

Modifié par pf17456, 03 octobre 2010 - 05:21 .

[Phaedon]

[quote]smudboy wrote...

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

I have already linked you to my post. No need to recycle the same arguments twice.
[/quote]
Yet you still have no evidence to show that TIM is racist.[/quote]
I beg to differ, then again,do you accept that TIM is 'pro-human' ?

[quote][quote]
No point trusting someone who has no point lying to you.
[/quote]
I'm not big on the trust either, but I do trust him to use the base to fight the Reapers.[/quote]
That's your opinion and I respect it. That's why you kept the base, and I didn't.

[quote][quote]
Firewalls are still firewalls. EDI bypassing them before or after a firefight wouldn’t change anything.
[/quote]
What's your point?[/quote]
My point is that you can't tip off anyone that way. Try again.

[quote][quote]
Are you going to dismiss all the Cerberus operations that make him look bad ? There is no indication that this operation went rogue. It would make no sense.
[/quote]
Until it says TIM was involved, you're speculating.[/quote]
It's the exact opposite. TIM is the leader of Cerberus, if you don't have any evidence that he didn't order the operation, then you are speculating.

[quote][quote]
Something violent. And I am going to repeat myself by saying that there are always unarmed civilians in the Migrant Fleet.
[/quote]
It doesn't matter.  The narrative gives us two accounts: the Quarians and Miranda.[/quote]
And ?

[quote][quote]
Saying that it may still be part of the Alliance is speculation. Here are the facts: Cerberus put a transmitter near a Thresher Maw nest, just like Akuze, lured a squad of marines, and killed an admiral so that he couldn’t get the chance to give more information to Shepard or someone else. There is no way to make Cerberus look good.
[/quote]
Yet none of this changes the fact that Kahoku is still a traitor.[/quote]
a) Not necessarily. Shepard has done much worse things in ME1 and ME2.
This makes Cerberus/TIM look any better because ? 

[quote][quote]
Characterizing cadavers as dead mice is your opinion,
not the social standard. In fact, burial rights do exist: http://legal-diction...m/Burial Rights
[/quote]
They weren't present in the narrative, nor was this issue raised.  Irrelevant.[/quote]
We are trying to figure out if TIM is trustworthy. This involves judging his character, and his actions.

[quote][quote]
It’s the opposite actually. If you exclude all the ‘supplemental material’, you lose all the facts and all you have is your subjective opinion. The books leave you no room for interpretation, the writer explains the situation at you. This is not about the base, I am pretty sure we haven’t been arguing about it all this time. This about trusting TIM with the base.
[/quote]
All supplemental material is irrelevant.[/quote]

I cannot base my opinion of saving/destroying the base on some other story.[/quote]
Why ? It's the same story, same universe, same characters, same timeline ! Taking them into account gives you a pretty clear and objective view on TIM's character. I would understand your logic, if we were speaking about what our canon Shepard would do. But this material is quite canon. If TIM paints his hair blue,in a book, then they'll be blue in ME3. If Saren learns about Sovereign in Retribution, then he will be using Sovereign in ME1.

[quote][quote]
I asked you if you consider morality an idiocy. This is not an answer.
[/quote]
Morality of what?[/quote]
Let me rephrase that. 'Being moral' is an idiocy ?

[quote][quote]
That’s your right. If I could, I’d give it to the Council. But I am not going to trust a guy who openly suggests using it ‘Beyond the Reapers’ or makes the specific face that he does if you give him the base.
[/quote]
It doesn't matter whom we give it to, it should still be studied.[/quote]
I would have no problem giving the base to Cerberus for further studying,if I would find them trustworthy of not attacking the Alliance, another race etc.

[quote][quote]
We should neither overestimate nor underestimate the value of the base. I doubt it will help too much against the Reapers (At best, they’ll just fix the Human Reaper.), but, it can cost the lives of many of Cerberus’ enemies.
[/quote]
This isn't about the possible value.  This is about being given an opportunity, and idiots are wasting it because TIM IS BAD.[/quote]
If we do underestimate the base and give it to Cerberus without much thought, there will be repercussions. Negative ones.


[quote][quote]
So, the operation went rogue before building the facility ? Or perhaps it’s purpose was not to test biotics to kids but to build a puppy factory ? Let’s not fool ourselves, testing biotics was the purpose from the start. Sure, you can argue that it’s possible that if he knew that children were dying, he’d stop at once, but that was not my argument. They are still abducting children.
[/quote]
Then we're in agreement.  The scientists are to blame, and TIM had no knowledge of the experiments going on.[/quote]
Let me remind you that TIM ordered the scientists to experiment on children and he did abduct children to use as lab rats. That makes TIM....BAD.

[quote]
TIM is TIM. You can not support that he generally is not a morally gray guy without taking any material that you have into account. Your opinion can only be objective after you have seen everything there is see in a situation.[/quote]

My opinion of TIM is objective because it's based on objective obsersvations:  Pragia.  Overlord.

As soon as you throw in alternate material, your points become moot and useless.
[/quote]
You reply to an argument that originated from 'Why should supplement material not be taken in account?' by saying that they shouldn't ? 

[smudboy]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...
I beg to differ, then again,do you accept that TIM is 'pro-human' ?
[/quote]
Yes.

[quote]
That's your opinion and I respect it. That's why you kept the base, and I didn't.
[/quote]
NO.

I keep it because it's logical and there's no reason to destroy it.  I want knowledge on my enemy, I want to save the galaxy.  I do not want NOR CARE whether TIM is an INFJ or murders Asari on weekends.

[quote]
My point is that you can't tip off anyone that way. Try again.
[/quote]
It's not for me to try again, that's what the narrative told us.

[quote]
It's the exact opposite. TIM is the leader of Cerberus, if you don't have any evidence that he didn't order the operation, then you are speculating.
[/quote]
TIM is the leader of Cerberus.  He didn't know about Pragia and Overlord.  There is my evidence.

[quote]
And ?
[/quote]
And there's the narrative for you.

[quote]
a) Not necessarily. Shepard has done much worse things in ME1 and ME2.
This makes Cerberus/TIM look any better because ? 
[/quote]
a) Shepard was a Spectre.
This has nothing to do with TIM.

[quote]
We are trying to figure out if TIM is trustworthy. This involves judging his character, and his actions.
[/quote]
No we're not.  TIM's trustworthiness is irrelevant.

[quote]

Why ? It's the same story, same universe, same characters, same timeline ! Taking them into account gives you a pretty clear and objective view on TIM's character. I would understand your logic, if we were speaking about what our canon Shepard would do. But this material is quite canon. If TIM paints his hair blue,in a book, then they'll be blue in ME3. If Saren learns about Sovereign in Retribution, then he will be using Sovereign in ME1.
[/quote]
It's not the same story.  It's ME2.  You cannot assume every players knows everything there is to know about ME.  Therefore one bases one judgement on knowledge found within the story, and only the story.

[quote]
Let me rephrase that. 'Being moral' is an idiocy ?
[/quote]
Regarding?

[quote]
I would have no problem giving the base to Cerberus for further studying,if I would find them trustworthy of not attacking the Alliance, another race etc.
[/quote]
Irrelevant.  Trust has nothing to do with studying the base.  The base is knowledge.  It's how this knowledge is used that makes it helpful.  That is, to fight the Reapers.

If that is not your priority, then you're automatically anti-life.

[quote]
If we do underestimate the base and give it to Cerberus without much thought, there will be repercussions. Negative ones.
[/quote]
There will also be positive ones.  These positive ones are greater than any negative ones.  As in, saving the goddamned galaxy.

[quote]
Let me remind you that TIM ordered the scientists to experiment on children and he did abduct children to use as lab rats. That makes TIM....BAD.
[/quote]
You have no evidence.  You are wrong.

[quote]
You reply to an argument that originated from 'Why should supplement material not be taken in account?' by saying that they shouldn't ? [/quote]
Because it's irrelevant.

This is ME2.

This is not a book.

This is not a comic book.

This is ME2.  It's a video game.

ME2 is where we make the base decision.

ME2 is where we get all our info on.

If you start making decisions based on external data, your argument is flawed, your reasoning is biased, and you're missing the entire point.  TIM could be a saint or devil in any other story, but in ME2 is where it matters, because that's where the decision making process is.  It's like playing a Star Wars game, but you know in The Clone Wars some character is a saint, so you'll hand the base over to them instead of destroying it, or some bullsh*t.

It is a failure in storytelling to suddenly base the narrative on ANOTHER narrative.

It is a failure in logic to use supplemental material to make some inference.

And this all stems from "TIM IS BAD."

All of which is completely irrelevant, because this isn't about TIM or Cerberus.  It's about saving the base so we can save the galaxy.  Your subjective dislike of a personality, your subjective view of another story, your subjective understanding of what may or may not happen: completely irrelevant.  This is about the base.

It doesn't matter who we give it to, so long as it's used to stop the Big Bad.

[Pacifien]

smudboy wrote...
TIM is the leader of Cerberus.  He didn't know about Pragia and Overlord.  There is my evidence.

Like hell he didn't. He's the leader of Cerberus. Why wouldn't he know (or, at least, have an extremely good idea) about what his operatives that he recruited are capable of doing? But since this would take a certain level of implicit understanding, I can see why people choose to dismiss the possibility.

I think every failed Cerberus research project Shepard comes across would be evidence enough for why the Illusive Man shouldn't get the Collector Base. The Illusive Man recruits incompetent scientists. They can uncover the ultimate weakness guaranteed to destroy all Reapers, but oh, Shepard needs to fight through the entire base again because the scientists also managed to get themselves turned into husks, gained control of the station, and they're heading straight for Earth. It's okay, 'cause Shepard will always be there to clean up the mess because Shepard can't die--oh. Oh wait...

[AntiChri5]

TIM is either in control of Cerberus, and responsible for its actions, or he is not in control of Cerberus, making him incompetant.

You decide.

[smudboy]

Pacifien wrote...

smudboy wrote...
TIM is the leader of Cerberus.  He didn't know about Pragia and Overlord.  There is my evidence.

Like hell he didn't. He's the leader of Cerberus. Why wouldn't he know (or, at least, have an extremely good idea) about what his operatives that he recruited are capable of doing? But since this would take a certain level of implicit understanding, I can see why people choose to dismiss the possibility.

I think every failed Cerberus research project Shepard comes across would be evidence enough for why the Illusive Man shouldn't get the Collector Base. The Illusive Man recruits incompetent scientists. They can uncover the ultimate weakness guaranteed to destroy all Reapers, but oh, Shepard needs to fight through the entire base again because the scientists also managed to get themselves turned into husks, gained control of the station, and they're heading straight for Earth. It's okay, 'cause Shepard will always be there to clean up the mess because Shepard can't die--oh. Oh wait...

Security Officer: "The Illusive Man requested operation logs again.  He's getting suspicious."
Scientist: "When we get results he won't care what we did.  But if he knew..."
Security Officer: "He won't find out."

He.  Didn't.  Know.

[AntiChri5]

No context.

For all we know, he is talking about the fact that they went over budget.

[Inverness Moon]

It's quite illogical to suggest that TIM would want to build a single reaper by abducting millions of humans, when you could get a much more powerful force by upgrading the Alliance fleets with reaper technology.

AntiChri5 wrote...

No context.
For all we know, he is talking about the fact that they went over budget.

"When we get results he wont care what we did."

You're clearly grasping at straws.

And on a metagaming note, I find it hard to believe BioWare would put that in the game if it was because of something insignificant like being over budget.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 03 octobre 2010 - 06:26 .

[DPSSOC]

Pacifien wrote...

smudboy wrote...
TIM is the leader of Cerberus.  He didn't know about Pragia and Overlord.  There is my evidence.

Like hell he didn't. He's the leader of Cerberus. Why wouldn't he know (or, at least, have an extremely good idea) about what his operatives that he recruited are capable of doing? But since this would take a certain level of implicit understanding, I can see why people choose to dismiss the possibility.

Knowing what people are capable of is not the same as knowing what they're doing.  I know people who have no problem stealing, that doesn't mean I assume they spend every moment out of my sight stealing.  Teltin offers a recording where the head of the facility states, flat out, that they are hiding information from TIM.  Let's put it this way, would you expect the CEO of a company to know, in detail, what the bottom level employees are doing?  TIM is the CEO of Cerberus, he delegates tasks to Directors and demands regular reports.  If one of those Directors is lying to him he has no way of knowing, but as we see with Teltin if he is suspicious he looks into it and takes action.

Pacifien wrote...
I think every failed Cerberus research project Shepard comes across would be evidence enough for why the Illusive Man shouldn't get the Collector Base. The Illusive Man recruits incompetent scientists. They can uncover the ultimate weakness guaranteed to destroy all Reapers, but oh, Shepard needs to fight through the entire base again because the scientists also managed to get themselves turned into husks, gained control of the station, and they're heading straight for Earth. It's okay, 'cause Shepard will always be there to clean up the mess because Shepard can't die--oh. Oh wait...

The problem with this reasoning is that it ignores what we don't know (odd as that sounds).  Yes Cerberus has some collosal failures but if the majority of their projects weren't successful, to one degree or another, they wouldn't be receiving funding.  Investors don't keep investing if they're not getting returns.  The fact Cerberus has lasted so long, is connected so well, and has made the enemies it has, indicates they are at least somewhat competent

[Inverness Moon]

DPSSOC wrote...

The problem with this reasoning is that it ignores what we don't know (odd as that sounds).  Yes Cerberus has some collosal failures but if the majority of their projects weren't successful, to one degree or another, they wouldn't be receiving funding.  Investors don't keep investing if they're not getting returns.  The fact Cerberus has lasted so long, is connected so well, and has made the enemies it has, indicates they are at least somewhat competent

Bringing the savior of the Citadel, and soon to be savior of the galaxy back from the dead is quite the success. I've said before that the good that will come as a result of the Lazarus Project will outweigh all of the bad Cerberus has done and all of the projects that have ended up as failures.

[Flamewielder]

DPSSOC wrote...
You do recognize that the torture would have happened volunteers or no right?

 
You're missing the point: the difference is, volunteers choose to suffer so that others may live. It is THEIR decision. It's a paragon choice. It's self sacrifice and is thus paragon. True, paragon cerberus would not have conducted investigation on children, but could have done so on adult volunteers. Similarly, if I offer to donate a kidney, it's a paragon choice. If I grab some random sap off the street and take it, it's a renegade choice... One avenue is ethical, the other isn't.

A Paragon Cerberus wouldn't have done most, if any, of their experiments.  They wouldn't have revived Shepard because A) It's desecrating the remains of the dead and  They don't have his consent. 

Paragon Shepard is dead, and likely signed an organ donation form... and is not in a position to complain once he's brought back to life. Paragon doesn't equal stupid... Similarily, if your heart stopped beating after a road accident, the paramedics won't be looking for a consent form to administer CPR... and I'm sure you won't mind it too much if they save your life in the process. Shepard would look rather silly sueing Cerberus for essentially saving his life...

Akuze, Teltin, Overlord, Binthu, none of these would have happened and as I've pointed out in other threads we don't know what gains were made by these.  We know they eventually failed but we have no idea what was gained before that failure.  For all we know Overlord could have stumbled across a means of utilizing VI's to assist people with autism or similar mental disabilities.

Millions of people die of cancer every year and yet no one's grabbing vagrants off the streets to conduct experiments... Paragons follow accepted ethical research protocols, renegades grab vagrants off the streets and "save lives" by sacrificing others. The difference is not in the results, it's in the means employed to achieve the results. If a cancer victim willingly offers to try an experimental treatment, that's one thing. Conducting these experiment without consent is another.

Experimental science is risky and it's messy especially when circumstances demand you do it quickly.  Paragons don't have the stomach for it, and were it up to you we'd all be in the same boat as the Hanar, Volus, and Elcor.

One could say that renegades don't have the stomach to conduct the experiments on themselves. They'll find some poor sap and experiment on him. Seriously, I think some of the research conducted by Cerberus could have been done ethically, and perhaps would have achieved the desired/same results (or lack thereof). The designers have made it so we cannot tell one way or the other so that players can choose their own "moral" path and still succeed in stopping the Reapers. I'm not saying the paragon path is superior (unless you're speaking in terms of virtue ethics). It may in fact be slower and cost more lives. The Allies certainly thought dropping the A-bomb on Japan was going to save thousands of soldiers lives and that may have been true if mainland Japan had been invaded conventionally. Would Japan have capitulated after a 2 year economic blockade (more expensive in terms of money, but risking fewer lives)? A paragon option that was quickly discarded by tired allied governments who sought a quick end to a conflict at the cost of a couple hundred thousand japanese civilian lives... I'm not saying it would have been possible, I'm just speculating here and using the atomic bombing of 1945 as an example of tough paragon-renegade decision-making.

[Phaedon]

Pacifien wrote...

smudboy wrote...
TIM is the leader of Cerberus.  He didn't know about Pragia and Overlord.  There is my evidence.

Like hell he didn't. He's the leader of Cerberus. Why wouldn't he know (or, at least, have an extremely good idea) about what his operatives that he recruited are capable of doing? But since this would take a certain level of implicit understanding, I can see why people choose to dismiss the possibility.

I think every failed Cerberus research project Shepard comes across would be evidence enough for why the Illusive Man shouldn't get the Collector Base. The Illusive Man recruits incompetent scientists. They can uncover the ultimate weakness guaranteed to destroy all Reapers, but oh, Shepard needs to fight through the entire base again because the scientists also managed to get themselves turned into husks, gained control of the station, and they're heading straight for Earth. It's okay, 'cause Shepard will always be there to clean up the mess because Shepard can't die--oh. Oh wait...

I have to agree with the Pragia and Overlord part, but I think that it's BW's fault to make Cerberus a small organization with 90% of it's operations being a massive failure.

[AntiChri5]

"When we get results he wont care what we did."



You're clearly grasping at straws.

Still no specifics. My point still stands

The only thing that log tells us is that they hid something, not that TIM didnt know anything.

Besides which, even if your interpretation of the half conversation is correct TIM is still responsible for everything that happened at Teltin.

[Pacifien]

DPSSOC wrote...
The problem with this reasoning is that it ignores what we don't know (odd as that sounds).  Yes Cerberus has some collosal failures but if the majority of their projects weren't successful, to one degree or another, they wouldn't be receiving funding.  Investors don't keep investing if they're not getting returns.  The fact Cerberus has lasted so long, is connected so well, and has made the enemies it has, indicates they are at least somewhat competent

Which means when the Illusive Man drops the decision quite suddenly in Shepard's lap, if your Shepard is already suspicious of Cerberus to start with, that Shepard has to stop and think about weighing all the things Shepard knows Cerberus has done with all the things Shepard doesn't know Cerberus has done.

Keeping the Collector Base is a huge risk. One that can have a huge payoff should everything go right. One that could cause huge catastrophe if it doesn't. In that case, I wouldn't stop to think about what Cerberus might have done, what I don't know about. I'd think solely about what I do know Cerberus has done. And the Illusive Man is prone to putting incompetent scientists in charge of important assignments that blow up in their faces.

[Phaedon]

smudboy wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

smudboy wrote...
TIM is the leader of Cerberus.  He didn't know about Pragia and Overlord.  There is my evidence.

Like hell he didn't. He's the leader of Cerberus. Why wouldn't he know (or, at least, have an extremely good idea) about what his operatives that he recruited are capable of doing? But since this would take a certain level of implicit understanding, I can see why people choose to dismiss the possibility.

I think every failed Cerberus research project Shepard comes across would be evidence enough for why the Illusive Man shouldn't get the Collector Base. The Illusive Man recruits incompetent scientists. They can uncover the ultimate weakness guaranteed to destroy all Reapers, but oh, Shepard needs to fight through the entire base again because the scientists also managed to get themselves turned into husks, gained control of the station, and they're heading straight for Earth. It's okay, 'cause Shepard will always be there to clean up the mess because Shepard can't die--oh. Oh wait...

Security Officer: "The Illusive Man requested operation logs again.  He's getting suspicious."
Scientist: "When we get results he won't care what we did.  But if he knew..."
Security Officer: "He won't find out."

He.  Didn't.  Know.

What didn't he know about ? He did order experimenting on children. That we know for sure, we just don't know if he knew anything about Jack or the casualties. Imho, he did. He is smart enough to place secret cameras or whatever, and the 'unfortunate timing' that I mentioned earlier does support that. Speculation ? Yes it is. But we can't question the part in blue.

[Anglerfish]

I would also like to add that the events of ME: Retribution might give one cause for concern regarding one's decision in this matter. I shall not divulge the plot details, but if you read it or scan a synopsis, you will see what I mean.

Modifié par Anglerfish, 03 octobre 2010 - 06:37 .

[Inverness Moon]

AntiChri5 wrote...

"When we get results he wont care what we did."

You're clearly grasping at straws.

Still no specifics. My point still stands
The only thing that log tells us is that they hid something, not that TIM didnt know anything.
Besides which, even if your interpretation of the half conversation is correct TIM is still responsible for everything that happened at Teltin.

If your point is that we don't know for sure, then you're correct. However, you're not making much of a point by stating the obvious.

That recording is obviously there to show that the scientists were hiding something significant from TIM. Based on that I would say that they know TIM has lines he doesn't cross, and that they crossed them.

Edit: About Retribution, reading that gave me a higher opinion of TIM than I had before. He clearly knows what is at stake in the fight against the reapers and the risks involved in what Cerberus was doing. The story also shows that he does sometimes wonder if he is crossing a line he shouldn't.

Basically, the glimpse into his mind was useful in developing my opinion of him. I'm highly interested in the upcoming comic about his background.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 03 octobre 2010 - 06:44 .

[mosor]

Anglerfish wrote...

I would also like to add that the events of ME: Retribution might give one cause for concern regarding one's decision in this matter. I shall not divulge the plot details, but if you read it or scan a synopsis, you will see what I mean.

We're arguing the base decision RPG wise. Shepard wouldn't know the events of retribution and other novels because:

1. Retribution happens after the collectors are defeated
2. Shepard isn't privy to much of the details on those books.

So basing your decision on the basis of those books is metagaming.
That being said, retribution made me support cerberus more:)