2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

Inverness Moon wrote...
That recording is obviously there to show that the scientists were hiding something significant from TIM. Based on that I would say that they know TIM has lines he doesn't cross, and that they crossed them.

They think they crossed the line with something. They also think that the Illusive Man won't even care so long as they have significant results. His message to Shepard after the Overlord mission also indicates he doesn't much care when a mission crumbles so long as the data is substantial.

And that's how he'll be with the Collector Base. He'll throw hundred of people at the base, every one of them can die, and he's cool with that so long as they got him something he can use against the Reapers and beyond. That's assuming someone is able to retrieve the data for him. I've yet to see any evidence that the Illusive Man is capable of proceeding with something as massive as the Collector Base wisely.

[AntiChri5]

If your point is that we don't know for sure, then you're correct. However, you're not making much of a point by stating the obvious.



That recording is obviously there to show that the scientists were hiding something significant from TIM. Based on that I would say that they know TIM has lines he doesn't cross, and that they crossed them.

I am stating the obvious because it needs to be stated. We cant bring up that recording to support any real argument.

Were they only able to be successful by making a deal with the collectors for biotic tech in exchange for some human biotics? Were they only able to achieve anything by selling secrets to the batarians in exchange for enough resources to succeed? Did he and a couple friends get drunk while partying with TIM's sister and crash their car, killig her? Did they do experiments TIM would not condone?

We dont know, and so that recording cant be considered.

[Phaedon]

[quote]smudboy wrote...

[quote]Phaedon wrote...
I beg to differ, then again,do you accept that TIM is 'pro-human' ?
[/quote]
Yes.[/quote]
Very well, I'll gather a list of evidence, and I should have it ready by tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.

[quote][quote]
That's your opinion and I respect it. That's why you kept the base, and I didn't.
[/quote]
NO.

I keep it because it's logical and there's no reason to destroy it.  I want knowledge on my enemy, I want to save the galaxy.  I do not want NOR CARE whether TIM is an INFJ or murders Asari on weekends.[/quote]
Here you go. The reason that I don't give it to him is because he might murder the whole asari race in a weekend.

[quote][quote]
My point is that you can't tip off anyone that way. Try again.
[/quote]
It's not for me to try again, that's what the narrative told us.[/quote]
That's what TIM told us. The narrative leaves it for personal interpretation.

[quote][quote]
It's the exact opposite. TIM is the leader of Cerberus, if you don't have any evidence that he didn't order the operation, then you are speculating.
[/quote]
TIM is the leader of Cerberus.  He didn't know about Pragia and Overlord.  There is my evidence.[/quote]
He did. Even if we accept that he wasn't updated, he did order both operations. The first one was about abducting kids and testing element zero on them and the second one was about 'melding a human with a VI'.

[quote][quote]
And ?
[/quote]
And there's the narrative for you.[/quote]
Which confirms that Cerberus did something violent to the Migrant Fleet ? I don't get it, can you please explain what you mean ?

[quote][quote]
a) Not necessarily. Shepard has done much worse things in ME1 and ME2.
This makes Cerberus/TIM look any better because ? 
[/quote]
a) Shepard was a Spectre.
This has nothing to do with TIM.[/quote]
a) Good point, but I thought that you supported that Kahoku was morally corrupt.
Why ? Did this operation go rogue too ?

[quote][quote]
We are trying to figure out if TIM is trustworthy. This involves judging his character, and his actions.
[/quote]
No we're not.  TIM's trustworthiness is irrelevant.[/quote]
How ? Giving him the base is based on that.

[quote]

Why ? It's the same story, same universe, same characters, same timeline ! Taking them into account gives you a pretty clear and objective view on TIM's character. I would understand your logic, if we were speaking about what our canon Shepard would do. But this material is quite canon. If TIM paints his hair blue,in a book, then they'll be blue in ME3. If Saren learns about Sovereign in Retribution, then he will be using Sovereign in ME1.
[/quote]
It's not the same story.  It's ME2.  You cannot assume every players knows everything there is to know about ME.  Therefore one bases one judgement on knowledge found within the story, and only the story.[/quote]
Check the text in bold.

[quote]
Let me rephrase that. 'Being moral' is an idiocy ?
[/quote]
Regarding?[/quote]
In general.

[quote][quote]
I would have no problem giving the base to Cerberus for further studying,if I would find them trustworthy of not attacking the Alliance, another race etc.
[/quote]
Irrelevant.  Trust has nothing to do with studying the base.  The base is knowledge.  It's how this knowledge is used that makes it helpful.  That is, to fight the Reapers.

If that is not your priority, then you're automatically anti-life.[/quote]
...and beyond. If you think that the priiize that the Base holds is greater than another genocide, then you are just overestimating the base.

[quote][quote]
If we do underestimate the base and give it to Cerberus without much thought, there will be repercussions. Negative ones.
[/quote]
There will also be positive ones.  These positive ones are greater than any negative ones.  As in, saving the goddamned galaxy.[/quote]
You are overestimating it's value. The base won't start producing Reapers.

[quote][quote]
Let me remind you that TIM ordered the scientists to experiment on children and he did abduct children to use as lab rats. That makes TIM....BAD.
[/quote]
You have no evidence.  You are wrong.[/quote]
If I remember correctly, Jack says that they shipped kids off-word, in containers. They would either attack colonies, or bought them from slavers. I'll go and check my source though.

[quote][quote]
You reply to an argument that originated from 'Why should supplement material not be taken in account?' by saying that they shouldn't ? [/quote]
Because it's irrelevant.

This is ME2.

This is not a book.

This is not a comic book.

This is ME2.  It's a video game.

ME2 is where we make the base decision.

ME2 is where we get all our info on.

If you start making decisions based on external data, your argument is flawed, your reasoning is biased, and you're missing the entire point.  TIM could be a saint or devil in any other story, but in ME2 is where it matters, because that's where the decision making process is.  It's like playing a Star Wars game, but you know in The Clone Wars some character is a saint, so you'll hand the base over to them instead of destroying it, or some bullsh*t.
It is a failure in storytelling to suddenly base the narrative on ANOTHER narrative.

It is a failure in logic to use supplemental material to make some inference.

And this all stems from "TIM IS BAD."[/quote]
Argument posted earlier in this post... Is this about our canon Shepard or are we generally speaking ? Because if we are, it's like going to the future, meet a guy who killed someone with a handgun, return to present, and give this guy a handgun.


[quote]
All of which is completely irrelevant, because this isn't about TIM or Cerberus.  It's about saving the base so we can save the galaxy.  Your subjective dislike of a personality, your subjective view of another story, your subjective understanding of what may or may not happen: completely irrelevant.  This is about the base.

It doesn't matter who we give it to, so long as it's used to stop the Big Bad.
[/quote]
I wish it was that simple. If I knew that TIM wouldn't use it 'beyond the Reapers', I'd have no problem with keeping the base. Hell, I didn't dislike him that much. Sheen is godlike. 

[Phaedon]

mosor wrote...

Anglerfish wrote...

I would also like to add that the events of ME: Retribution might give one cause for concern regarding one's decision in this matter. I shall not divulge the plot details, but if you read it or scan a synopsis, you will see what I mean.

We're arguing the base decision RPG wise. Shepard wouldn't know the events of retribution and other novels because:

1. Retribution happens after the collectors are defeated
2. Shepard isn't privy to much of the details on those books.

So basing your decision on the basis of those books is metagaming.
That being said, retribution made me support cerberus more:)

Are we ? This is the question that I have been asking all along. If we are, then TIM's morality is completely debatable, and it would make sense to give the base to him. That is, if we don't pay a lot of attention in where he intends to use it.

[Elite Midget]

Destroy the base....



If you use the Collector technology than you're using Technology that the Reapers know and will most likely have ways to counter it. You're just setting yourself up to following what the Reapers wanted. They did the same thing time and again with left over technology, that they could control, with the Keepers(Who evolved many many years later to only serve the Citadel), the Citadel(Where all technology and its advances come from it), and the Mass Relays(It makes an open map to where every planet intelligent life lives and how to get there instantly).



I don't know about you but the cycle must be brought to an end if the Reapers must be defeated. New technology, not derived from what the Reapers gave us, is what will be needed to stop them. Such a move would be considered illogical to the Reapers and thus it will take them by surprise. For the first time the Reapers will face something they can't control and was created without their direction.

[Inverness Moon]

Pacifien wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
That recording is obviously there to show that the scientists were hiding something significant from TIM. Based on that I would say that they know TIM has lines he doesn't cross, and that they crossed them.

They think they crossed the line with something. They also think that the Illusive Man won't even care so long as they have significant results. His message to Shepard after the Overlord mission also indicates he doesn't much care when a mission crumbles so long as the data is substantial.

And that's how he'll be with the Collector Base. He'll throw hundred of people at the base, every one of them can die, and he's cool with that so long as they got him something he can use against the Reapers and beyond. That's assuming someone is able to retrieve the data for him. I've yet to see any evidence that the Illusive Man is capable of proceeding with something as massive as the Collector Base wisely.

Maybe he would care, maybe he won't. I think he'll still care, but won't let the results go to waste just because he didn't like the methods used to produce them.

Obviously if the mission crumbles he'll learn not to make the same mistake again. What else would you expect him to do?

The reapers are the most important thing obviously. Cerberus is a high risk high reward operation, if TIM is learning from past mistakes then he is on the right track.

As to whether Cerberus can handle the collector base or not, we can't really judge that unless we know what the handling entails.

AntiChri5 wrote...

If your point is that we don't know for sure, then you're correct. However, you're not making much of a point by stating the obvious.

That recording is obviously there to show that the scientists were hiding something significant from TIM. Based on that I would say that they know TIM has lines he doesn't cross, and that they crossed them.

I am stating the obvious because it needs to be stated. We cant bring up that recording to support any real argument.
Were they only able to be successful by making a deal with the collectors for biotic tech in exchange for some human biotics? Were they only able to achieve anything by selling secrets to the batarians in exchange for enough resources to succeed? Did he and a couple friends get drunk while partying with TIM's sister and crash their car, killig her? Did they do experiments TIM would not condone?
We dont know, and so that recording cant be considered.

Whether or not it can be brought up in an argument depends on what the argument is about. If I was arguing that BioWare is attempting to make you unsure about exactly what the truth is, I sure as hell would bring that recording up.

I argue that they're hiding something from TIM, that recording supports that argument. What that is they're hiding is another thing entirely, but it is quite obvious if you're not intentionally blinding yourself.

Phaedon wrote...

Are we ? This is the question that I have been asking all along. If we are, then TIM's morality is completely debatable, and it would make sense to give the base to him. That is, if we don't pay a lot of attention in where he intends to use it.

My in-character decision to save the base is based on the simple belief that I'm not invincible and our victory is not assured. Destroying the base in the hope that we'll find some other way is foolish and irresponsible. TIM is a known unknown. What will happen if you destroy the base is an unknown unknown, other than the fact that extinction is certain if we loose.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 03 octobre 2010 - 07:22 .

[Elite Midget]

Ummm... Many missions have crumbled for him and he still does the same thing over and over again. The TIM uses the term 'going rogue' as an excuse for pushing the blame on someone else even though he's perfectly fine with them doing whatever it takes to get the job done. If the job goes bad or something goes completely wrong, like Jack, he places blame on someone else while swipeing all the data for himself.



Even though they hide some things from TIM about their Biotic program, that TIM initaited and told them to get results no matter what as well as unlimited funding, I never heard of TIM ever sending in his most trusted supporters to check things out. Instead he took their word for it, even though he suspected something was wrong, and didn't pester them or threaten an investifation.



In a way he allowed those things to happen because he ordered them to get results by any means neccessary, gave them unlimited funding, never sent people to check up on them, and took their word even though he knew things were off. He just doesn't care just as long as he gets the data he desires.



I doubt the Collecter Base will be any different. He'll throw money and researchers at it and demand that they get results no matter what. If anything goes wrong than the researchers there had 'gone rogue' and were 'carrying our tests without TIMs knowledge'. I find it ironic that TIM knows so much and has a hand in everything Cerberus does and has the power to launch investigations or withhold funds(Which he never does) but he can say with a straight face that operations that 'go rogue' were not his responsibility even though he enabled them 'going rogue' to get results.

[Pacifien]

Inverness Moon wrote...
As to whether Cerberus can handle the collector base or not, we can't really judge that unless we know what the handling entails.

Or I could just... not. I could just destroy the base.

I bet I win the game anyway.

Even if the base was going to someone who wasn't Cerberus, probably would still destroy it. Already blew up Virmire and crushed a derelict Reaper under the mass of a brown dwarf. And no one seems to want to share all that tech they got from Sovereign's demise. We're on a roll, baby.

Modifié par Pacifien, 03 octobre 2010 - 07:29 .

[DPSSOC]

Elite Midget wrote...

Destroy the base....

If you use the Collector technology than you're using Technology that the Reapers know and will most likely have ways to counter it. You're just setting yourself up to following what the Reapers wanted. They did the same thing time and again with left over technology, that they could control, with the Keepers(Who evolved many many years later to only serve the Citadel), the Citadel(Where all technology and its advances come from it), and the Mass Relays(It makes an open map to where every planet intelligent life lives and how to get there instantly).

I don't know about you but the cycle must be brought to an end if the Reapers must be defeated. New technology, not derived from what the Reapers gave us, is what will be needed to stop them. Such a move would be considered illogical to the Reapers and thus it will take them by surprise. For the first time the Reapers will face something they can't control and was created without their direction.

The problem with this idea is time.  Anderson states in ME2 that the cache found on mars set them ahead two hundred years.  That's what you're going back to, pre-cache tech.  And that's just where you'd have to start, from that you'd have to span the gap to get back to the tech level we're at now.  That's equivalent to telling a weapon R&D team to go back to bows and arrows and come up with something comparable to guns that uses none of the same principles.  All our tech is based on what the Reapers left, we can't effectively get away from that in a short period of time, and we have no idea when the Reapers will arrive.

[smudboy]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

Here you go. The reason that I don't give it to him is because he might murder the whole asari race in a weekend.
[/quote]
As opposed to the Reapers destroying all life in the galaxy?  Nice.

[quote]
That's what TIM told us. The narrative leaves it for personal interpretation.
[/quote]
Then it's not objective.

[quote]
He did. Even if we accept that he wasn't updated, he did order both operations. The first one was about abducting kids and testing element zero on them and the second one was about 'melding a human with a VI'.
[/quote]
He may have instigated the project, but he wasn't told of what kind of inhuman experiments were going on in Pragia and Overlord.

[quote]
Which confirms that Cerberus did something violent to the Migrant Fleet ? I don't get it, can you please explain what you mean ?
[/quote]
That the narrative tells us there are two sides to the story.

[quote]
a) Good point, but I thought that you supported that Kahoku was morally corrupt.
Why ? Did this operation go rogue too ?
[/quote]
a) Kahoku was a traitor.  It may not be totally obvious, but that's what happened.
I don't see what this has to do with TIM.

[quote]
How ? Giving him the base is based on that.
[/quote]
No, giving him the base is based on 1) Information, 2) Technology, 3) Evidence, 4) Closure.

[quote]
Check the text in bold.
[/quote]
And you still won't change my mind because you're arguing some OTHER STORY!

[quote]
In general.
[/quote]
What specifically "being morale in general" then?

[quote]
...and beyond. If you think that the priiize that the Base holds is greater than another genocide, then you are just overestimating the base.
[/quote]
And if you think some joke is more important than saving all life, then you're still anti-life.

[quote]
You are overestimating it's value. The base won't start producing Reapers.
[/quote]
And you are underestimating it's value.

[quote]
If I remember correctly, Jack says that they shipped kids off-word, in containers. They would either attack colonies, or bought them from slavers. I'll go and check my source though.
[/quote]
No evidence TIM did or ordered this.

[quote]
I wish it was that simple. If I knew that TIM wouldn't use it 'beyond the Reapers', I'd have no problem with keeping the base. Hell, I didn't dislike him that much. Sheen is godlike. [/quote]
It is that simple.

Even TIM knows his agenda is useless unless the Reapers are taken care of.  Who cares if he wants to also destroy all life after the Reapers are taken care of?  (That is one BIG if.)  It's easier to deal with a pro-human amateur galactic genocider than a fleet of galaxy destroying machine gods who have been doing this millions if not billions (if not ALWAYS) of years.

Modifié par smudboy, 03 octobre 2010 - 07:37 .

[Recombinant]

For me, the whole decision on whether or not to destroy the base came down to if I could trust TIM. Would he keep his word and continue to help me? or would his methods and goals change? So to make my decision I looked at my past history with TIM and Cerberus and this is what I found.

Any argument that TIM is completely unaware of all the heinous and disgusting acts for which Cerberus is responsible is simply patently false. Cerberus's crimes against nature and sapient life are not isolated incidents, perpetrated by ruthless individuals, but a systemic and quite obvious symptom of an organizational and operational method dedicated to the brutal destruction and or desecration of life for personal gain. Simply because he maintains a screen of plausible deniability does not allow him to escape culpability for the actions of his underlings. In multiple instances TIM lies to the player, endangering his life and his mission, to gamble with the possibility that there might be useful intelligence gained, possibly dooming all life if his gamble failed. While not a specific Indictment of his character, I believe these ruthless acts of scheming contribute to the overall picture of TIM and Cerberus as being malicious entities out for nothing, but their own power. In my opinion these actions and past acts perpetrated by both TIM and Cerberus are proof enough that they pose a tangible threat to the galaxy and evidence of a culture of irresponsibility, gross cruelty and rampant abuse of power. The resurrection of shepherd is merely a means to an end for TIM in my opinion, Shepard is simply the most viable candidate for savior of the galaxy and a proven quantity against the reapers .

 My justification for destroying the collector base is this, the enemy of my enemy is not my friend. Alliances created out of necessity last only so long as mutual self-interest is assured, after that my enemy's enemy can and most likely will become yet another enemy. For example an external entity threatens to destroy the world and arming a known terrorist group with a radical agenda and horrible methods with a nuclear device may or may not stop the threat. No one in their right mind would give a bunch of terrorist, psychopaths a nuclear weapon on the off chance that they might inadvertently destroy the greater threat while they are trying to get their jollies.

While it is indisputable that there are benefits to keeping and studying the CB, it is my opinion that there is an equal amount of risk in allowing it to be studied by such a cutthroat and unscrupulous group of malicious radicals as Cerberus. For further real world evidence against arming your enemies to fight your other enemies I list in no particular order; Iran-Contra, the Afghan-Soviet war, Nicaragua v. United States  and last but not least the Iran–Iraq War.

As a small addendum I would like to add that the knowledge that Mass Effect 3 would resolve this issue regardless of my choice, played a role in my judgment and if I were ever to face such a choice where the outcome was not assured, I would probably make a very different decision.

[Elite Midget]

TIM has control of EVERY Cerberus operations. No operation or project gets any funding without his okay. He holds the money and the manpower to get things done. You're naive if you think TIM told them to get things done, no matter what, and was not aware of the consequences of such experimentations. Sure they yeilded great data but at unethical costs.

Again, TIM never sent an investigation team or ever threatened his researchers with cuts or total removal of their cash flows. Instead he either knew what was going on and didn't care or he pretended to be ignorant to the fact because it was for the benefit of mankind.

DPSSOC

That may be true but they were pushed forward with technology that was left by the Reapers. Thus they followed and advanced on the pathes that the Reapers desired. Taking the Collector Base as your own would make no difference. As we saw, one Reaper easily destroyed anything that was derived from the technology that was gained by what they had left behind.

Only the Beacons, The Conduit, The Cipher, and the Ruins of Illos were technologies that they didn't intend to be left around for other organic life to use sinced it was outside the picture of their grand plans. Even two years later the Citadel races haven't even begun to tap into the technology left on Illos and it might hold the key to forgeing the destiny of Organic Life outside the will of the Reapers and their technology that they had left behind.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 03 octobre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Inverness Moon]

Elite Midget wrote...

Ummm... Many missions have crumbled for him and he still does the same thing over and over again. The TIM uses the term 'going rogue' as an excuse for pushing the blame on someone else even though he's perfectly fine with them doing whatever it takes to get the job done. If the job goes bad or something goes completely wrong, like Jack, he places blame on someone else while swipeing all the data for himself.

Even though they hide some things from TIM about their Biotic program, that TIM initaited and told them to get results no matter what as well as unlimited funding, I never heard of TIM ever sending in his most trusted supporters to check things out. Instead he took their word for it, even though he suspected something was wrong, and didn't pester them or threaten an investifation.

In a way he allowed those things to happen because he ordered them to get results by any means neccessary, gave them unlimited funding, never sent people to check up on them, and took their word even though he knew things were off. He just doesn't care just as long as he gets the data he desires.

I doubt the Collecter Base will be any different. He'll throw money and researchers at it and demand that they get results no matter what. If anything goes wrong than the researchers there had 'gone rogue' and were 'carrying our tests without TIMs knowledge'. I find it ironic that TIM knows so much and has a hand in everything Cerberus does and has the power to launch investigations or withhold funds(Which he never does) but he can say with a straight face that operations that 'go rogue' were not his responsibility even though he enabled them 'going rogue' to get results.

The recording found on Pragia casts doubt on what you're saying.

And now you're contradicting yourself. If TIM told them to do whatever it takes, then why were they hiding something from him as the recording clearly shows. I doubt he'd be unclear about what "do whatever it takes" means.

And why would TIM tell you, or anyone else, about how he handles internal affairs? He obviously didn't "take their word for it" if the recording is to be believed, or he wouldn't have been suspicious of them. He was suspicious so he requested operation logs so he could find out exactly what they were doing.

I think I've just invalidated the rest of your argument.

Pacifien wrote...

Or I could just... not. I could just destroy the base.

I bet I win the game anyway.

The fight against the reapers isn't a game to my Shepard.

The argument about what to do with the base is entirely from an in-character perspective.

Pacifien wrote...

Even if the base was going to someone who wasn't Cerberus, probably would still destroy it. Already blew up Virmire and crushed a derelict Reaper under the mass of a brown dwarf. And no one seems to want to share all that tech they got from Sovereign's demise. We're on a roll, baby.

If others believed in the existence of the reapers, they probably wouldn't have such a tight grip on whatever they salvaged from Sovereign.

[DPSSOC]

[quote]Flamewielder wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
You do recognize that the torture would have happened volunteers or no right?[/quote] 
You're missing the point: the difference is, volunteers choose to suffer so that others may live. It is THEIR decision. It's a paragon choice. It's self sacrifice and is thus paragon. True, paragon cerberus would not have conducted investigation on children, but could have done so on adult volunteers. Similarly, if I offer to donate a kidney, it's a paragon choice. If I grab some random sap off the street and take it, it's a renegade choice... One avenue is ethical, the other isn't.[/quote]

Ok then you've got a strange view I've not seen before, fine with torture as long as it's voluntary torture.  Fair enough I suppose

[quote]Flamewielder wrote...

[quote]A Paragon Cerberus wouldn't have done most, if any, of their experiments.  They wouldn't have revived Shepard because A) It's desecrating the remains of the dead and  They don't have his consent. [/quote]
Paragon Shepard is dead, and likely signed an organ donation form... and is not in a position to complain once he's brought back to life. Paragon doesn't equal stupid...[/quote]

Debatable

[quote]Flamewielder wrote...
Similarily, if your heart stopped beating after a road accident, the paramedics won't be looking for a consent form to administer CPR... and I'm sure you won't mind it too much if they save your life in the process. Shepard would look rather silly sueing Cerberus for essentially saving his life...[/quote]

Actual paramedics are required to check for a DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) card before administering CPR.  People can, and do, demand that they not be rescued, and can sue if you do.  And it doesn't change the fact that you're still desecrating a corpse.  If someone found out that a mortician had been inserting mechanical objects into their dead realtive, without consent, in the hopes of bringing them back to life theyd be arrested.  Now likely you're right if they were successful there wouldn't be much fuss but that doesn't change the fact that the means by which it was achieved were illegal and arguably unethical.

[quote]Flamewielder wrote...

[quote]Akuze, Teltin, Overlord, Binthu, none of these would have happened and as I've pointed out in other threads we don't know what gains were made by these.  We know they eventually failed but we have no idea what was gained before that failure.  For all we know Overlord could have stumbled across a means of utilizing VI's to assist people with autism or similar mental disabilities.[/quote]Millions of people die of cancer every year and yet no one's grabbing vagrants off the streets to conduct experiments...[/quote]
 
And you'll notice we don't have a cure yet do we?

[quote]Flamewielder wrote...
Paragons follow accepted ethical research protocols, renegades grab vagrants off the streets and "save lives" by sacrificing others. The difference is not in the results, it's in the means employed to achieve the results.[/quote] 

And the speed with which results are achieved.  Keep in mind why Cerberus is conducting these experiments, why they feel the need to secure human dominance.

[quote]Flamewielder wrote...
If a cancer victim willingly offers to try an experimental treatment, that's one thing. Conducting these experiment without consent is another.[/quote]

If the treatement works their consent won't matter, if it doesn't their no worse off and their consent doesn't matter.  Only in the event of collosal failure are they inconvenienced and at that point their consent doesn't matter because they're probably dead.

[quote]Flamewielder wrote...

[quote]Experimental science is risky and it's messy especially when circumstances demand you do it quickly.  Paragons don't have the stomach for it, and were it up to you we'd all be in the same boat as the Hanar, Volus, and Elcor.[/quote]One could say that renegades don't have the stomach to conduct the experiments on themselves. They'll find some poor sap and experiment on him. Seriously, I think some of the research conducted by Cerberus could have been done ethically, and perhaps would have achieved the desired/same results (or lack thereof).[/quote]

Doubtful.  Following your idea of using only volunteers (even with the same methods) you would never get the numbers you need and (wihtout using their methods) progress would be too slow to be of any real use.  Cerberus research needs to achieve results quickly, that's why TIM pushes them to produce results so regularly.  it needs to be quick cause they're playing catch-up with the Council races and need to match and surpass them to keep humans from becoming the next serf race to the big 3.

[Elite Midget]

They're hiding things because it lets TIM deny that he had a hand in their actions that he ordered them to carry out. It's what any Dirty Politician would do to keep a clean face in the public eye. When asked about all the horrible things Cerberus has done TIM can simly say they were 'rogue cells' and that they had 'conducted experiments' without his knowledge when in fact he he's sending them money and manpower to do said experiments.



If they went out and told him outright that bad things were being done, that he gave the okay for, than he would be forced to act to save face. If they hide things from him than he can sit in his chair and wait for the data that he wants to arrive.



Operation Logs can be forged. If he was 'really' conserned about what was happening he would have threatened to cut of funding and sent in an investigation team. Neither were done. Instead he said he wanted some logs to look over. Whether they were true or not didn't matter if it meant he could claim ignorance.



With how many cells have 'gone rogue' don't you think it's suspicious that TIM has denied any accountability with any of them? With that track record he would have to know what was really going on since he never put any precuassions in place or ever sent in teams to do some investigateing for him.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Illusive Man is in control of Cerberus. He gives objectives that cells are expected to carry out. That's the extent of it.



While some says he just recruited unworthy people, we do see that he picked the right people for the Collector Base mission.



Saying that he didn't pick good scientists to challenge the far superior Reaper tech is a stretch at best... since it's above anything anyone has ever worked with. It's bound to have a learning curve, and a dangerous one at that... but is it better to face that curve before or during the massacre?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

TIM has also stated when the risk was too high to send in a followup team for certain things/events that can go wrong (like the derelect Reaper) so he's not someone that always (if ever) blindly sends people to fodder.

I think there are those who take advantage of TIM's refusal to be hands on and in person.  His weakness is relying too heavily on others to achieve broad objectives.

All of that being because he's so cautious in his actions.

Like I said before, in Mass Effect 2 you can slaughter a populated city and that would be blamed on Cerberus (even though TIM would have nothing to do with that decision).  It seems obvious to me (especially given that)  that while they may not be saints, their legend has been exaggerated.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 octobre 2010 - 10:10 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Elite Midget wrote...

Destroy the base....

If you use the Collector technology than you're using Technology that the Reapers know and will most likely have ways to counter it. You're just setting yourself up to following what the Reapers wanted. They did the same thing time and again with left over technology, that they could control, with the Keepers(Who evolved many many years later to only serve the Citadel), the Citadel(Where all technology and its advances come from it), and the Mass Relays(It makes an open map to where every planet intelligent life lives and how to get there instantly).

I don't know about you but the cycle must be brought to an end if the Reapers must be defeated. New technology, not derived from what the Reapers gave us, is what will be needed to stop them. Such a move would be considered illogical to the Reapers and thus it will take them by surprise. For the first time the Reapers will face something they can't control and was created without their direction.

That's where I think there could be some confusion.  Any effort that anyone makes without studying actual reaper technology is by default on the path the Reapers planned them to take.  All scientists and all life in the galaxy already revolves around the technology of the Mass Relays (which is the technology they expect humanity to be on when they arrive).  They've all been living this way since the days of the Council's founding.

Remember that the cycle was supposed to start again in Mass Effect 1, things like Sovereign and the Collector Base are all technologies the races weren't supposed to find.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 octobre 2010 - 10:36 .

[Elite Midget]

Why did you triple post?

The Collector Base was made by the Reapers and the Collectors. It follows their designs. Even though it was never meant to fall into the hands or organic life, outside the Collectors, it doesn't mean they didn't plan for it. After all, it is something they control. Illos has been around for awhile. It obviously didn't just use Reaper technology, if any at all, since when it went silience the Reapers couldn't find it. They didn't even know it existed untill the very end of ME1.

Basically, the Reapers have grown so attached to Organic life following the technological advances that they can provide that they have ruled out any threats made by things they didn't come up with. Thus the Illos thing was Saren and Soverigns undoing.

As for Cerberus...

They earned that reputation after I played through ME1 and ME2. They did horrible things to humans and aliens on 'many' occassions. To believe that TIM is innocent in any of those things, or the fact that they kept happening again and again, is naive. He enabled them to happen and when things go wrong he collects what data is left and starts all over again. Than claims innocence if things go wrong by saying their rogue cells.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 03 octobre 2010 - 10:54 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Sorry about the 3P, if I could make them 1 post I would.

I don't think Reaper contingencies are something to be avoided in attacking them, if it's bound to be there it's bound to be there. They'll likewise have contingencies against traditional weapons. Except the estimated power of conventional Relay-era weapons have already been proven ineffective.

Cerberus knows about indoctrination threats now... Probably the only major group that does.  If anyone would do it right, Cerberus probably would if TIM is as smart as is to be expected.

As far as Cerberus goes, you see the deeds but not the goal. TIM gives the goals, the cell leader and teams do the deeds. Not saying the Paragon way was wrong, but the Renegade option isn't an "evil" choice either.

They're all ignorant to how things may really be.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 octobre 2010 - 11:11 .

[Elite Midget]

The Reapers have nothing when the Keepers evolved to serve the Citadel, further making the Reapers despise organic life since they're unpredictable, and the Reapers had nothing when the beacons and the conduit were discovered. They also had no way to deal with Illos and the surviving Prothean Technology. Technology that they didn't get to strip away and in some cases didn't even know existed. The Conduit itself is a technology the Reapers didn't create nor understood untill the very end. Even than they needed an organic to use it.





You see the deeds 'and' goals in ME1 and ME2. In ME1 they created Rachnii slaves to use as shocktroops. That was the goal of that project. TIM wanted Rachnii shocktroops but he didn't know how effective they were. Thus human and alien test subjects were pitted against the Rachnii only to be slaughtered.



Than there's TIM wanting stronger Biotics. Thus the hunt for those who were born with great biotic potiential. Any good loving family would never subject their children to heinous acts, such as drugs and pitting the biotics against eachother to test their biotic strengths, thus Cerberus faked their deaths so TIM would have his test subjects. Which were subjected to drugs, violence, and biotic amp upgrades.



You can't possibily believe TIM didn't know what it would take to rewach his goals. Than you can't ignore his track record and how every known Cerberus cell discovered by the alliance had all 'gone rogue' or when experiments went wrong it's because the cell had 'gone rogue'.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Cells don't have to "go rogue" to accomplish missions their own way. TIM may not approve of an action at times but would still want the results if they're good (mind as well take it now... it's already done).

I point to the missle launch mission again in Mass Effect 2, your goal is to stop the missle launch. You fail and instead must choose where it launches... one choice being a populated city. That is not TIM's doing... that's Shepard's doing and failure (not getting there in time/fixing it in time).  It is also exclusively Shepard's choice should he decide to launch the missle into a populated city.  Publically though, this too will be blamed on Cerberus.

He could've tried to freeze it or disarm it, but he felt that he only had those options (as the game only gives you these options). Decisions like that are irrefutably made and can't really be blamed on TIM who only gave you the mission of stopping the launch.

Now applying that to your scenarios, the Rachni were going to go completely extinct. Trying to make conscripted troops of some of them isn't necessarily evil... (the whole problem was that they were out of control) nor is testing it against capable parties. How it was handled is where the color changes from grey to one of the extremes. If a cell threw people in there with no protection or contingency, then that's bad on the cell leader (which is not TIM).

This was definitely the observed case with the "stronger biotics" objective. There's documented evidence of withholding information from TIM and having been shut down when they were found out. Even Miranda states that they didn't know what the subject zero facility was doing and she's the closest one to TIM that we know of.

Now, could TIM have known about some of it? Definitely. All of it? Not a chance.

The Alliance and Cerberus are publically enemies at the least.  Finding dirt on them (or pehaps even fabrication is a tactic not above their pay grade).  So while I don't deny that Cerberus is a shady group, I believe that exactly how shady they are has been exaggerated and perpetuated like a snowball down a hill.  They can almost do no right.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 04 octobre 2010 - 12:32 .

[Flamewielder]

DPSSOC wrote...
Ok then you've got a strange view I've not seen before, fine with torture as long as it's voluntary torture.  Fair enough I suppose

Would you consider it different if we used the expression "experimentation on volunteers" versus "experimentation on captives"? I'd be OK with that.

Flamewielder wrote...
Paragon Shepard is dead, and likely signed an organ donation form... and is not in a position to complain once he's brought back to life. Paragon doesn't equal stupid...

Debatable

Perhaps we don' share the same definition of paragon then...

Actual paramedics are required to check for a DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) card before administering CPR.  People can, and do, demand that they not be rescued, and can sue if you do.

Actually, I'm a trained mine rescuer in Canada, where I can confirm there is no such legislation. I suppose other countries might be different.

And it doesn't change the fact that you're still desecrating a corpse.  If someone found out that a mortician had been inserting mechanical objects into their dead realtive, without consent, in the hopes of bringing them back to life theyd be arrested.  Now likely you're right if they were successful there wouldn't be much fuss but that doesn't change the fact that the means by which it was achieved were illegal and arguably unethical.

Thank you for confirming that Cerberus uses unethical methods to achieve their goals, which is why a paragon Shepard would have a problem with Cerberus having exclusive access to potentially dangerous tech.

Flamewielder wrote...
Millions of people die of cancer every year and yet no one's grabbing vagrants off the streets to conduct experiments...

And you'll notice we don't have a cure yet do we?

I suppose vagrants are lucky most medical research isn't done by renegades then...

Flamewielder wrote...
If a cancer victim willingly offers to try an experimental treatment, that's one thing. Conducting these experiment without consent is another.

If the treatement works their consent won't matter, if it doesn't their no worse off and their consent doesn't matter.  Only in the event of collosal failure are they inconvenienced and at that point their consent doesn't matter because they're probably dead.

Only in terminal cases would your logic work. If the experimental treatment was tried when the tumor was still operable by conventional mean and subsequently failed, the willing subject decided to take the risk and suffered the consequences.
A captive subect in the same situation is deliberately condemned, the physician being guilty of manslaughter (a felony crime).

Let's remember why we want to stop the Reapers: we want our species to survive but they argue they are doing our species a service. We argue we, as individuals, should be give a choice in the matter; they argue they know best and our individual opinion is irrelevant. Cerberus also argues that it knows what's best for Humanity and our personal opinions are irrelevant, paragons argue that humans should be given a choice in these matters, especially when they involve their health and very lives.

Had there been an option to hand over the base to legitimate authorities, paragon Shep would have kept the base (and rubbed the damn turian councillor's nose all over the damn thing too). As it was, it was destroy it or hand it over to an organization branded as a terrorist group and who's demonstrated utter disregard of ethics in the pursuit of its objectives. Paragon Shep will gather whatever data he can (whatever was on the end scene datapad) and share it around but will not hand over the base to Cerberus.

[GGRush]

Phaedon wrote...

How do they pay off ? You mean the Cerberus operations ? (90% of which fails apparently)

Yes. Many CIA or FBI operations reported to the public are failures. Yet they still have over 85% success rate.
Is Cerberus's building Normandy-SR2, or rebuilding Shepard ever reported or known through anyone other than Shepard?

So, he sacrificed a human colony, (could have) sacrificed the VS and lied to Shepard ? I get why you think it's OK, but who made him god all of a sudden ? Moral, Practical or not, you have no right to decide for the fate of thousands.

At the mean time one human colony will be lost anyways. One particular colony is the same as another.

How has this been debated to death and how is this is a good thing ?

It paid off.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Paragon choices are going to be the game's "right" choices. That's just how it is. But outside of meta-gaming, arguing the choices realistically I find to be more interesting.

@Flamewielder: With that mindset though, humanity should have no place in Citadel space yet (or on the Spectres... like Saren said regarding humanity knowing their place) because of their short time with the council and as a race has the reputation of being primitive, aggressive war-mongers (whether you save the council or not).

The Council also feels that personal opinions are irrelevant and they know whats best. The Alliance is the same way. Any ruling body will be that way.  Been that way since parents had kids, teachers had classrooms, governors had states, and kings had kingdoms.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 04 octobre 2010 - 12:43 .