2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Dionkey wrote...
[/quote] Notice the bold, sure the other aliens races may want it but its pretty absurd to think that Cereberus will give it to them over humans first.
[/quote]Cerberus doesn't have to give them anything: there are at that point hundreds or thousands of Reaper corpses floating around to be disected.

Cerberus with the base does not have a monopoly on Reaper technology after the Reapers arrive. They might have the most, the best, and the greatest head start, but they do not have a monopoly.
[quote]
Again, for scale, all Cereberus has to do is get investors which will happen almost instantly.[/quote]No, it requires a lot more than that. This isn't a matter of credits, this is a matter of manpower, infrastructure, population, popular support, and will. None of which Cerberus has in measure to take over the Alliance, let alone the galaxy. More money doesn't change it.

[NocturnalStillness]

chris025657 wrote...

NocturnalStillness wrote...

I blew up the base for the following reason;

It's Reaper technology on a large scale you just have to look at the damage a 'dead' reaper can do let alone a completely functional base. I didn't think it would be worth it.

The risk of some sort of indoctrination is too great to warrant keeping the base. All it would take is one person to fall under and everything is undone.

Cerberus was apparently aware of the indoctrination threat before studying the derelict Reaper. I don't think it was unreasonable to believe that a Reaper killed millions of years ago wouldn't be capable of indoctrination. The remains of Sovereign didn't appear to indoctrinate anyone. However, through that experience Cerberus is now much more aware of the indoctrination threat and I don't imagine it would be difficult to take steps to avoid it.

If you look at in-game evidence; Saren in ME1 and the Derelict Reaper, we have two cases of people who are aware of indocrination one who clearly studied the effects (Saren) and both failed in their attempts to counter it.

I think the reason the bits of Sovereign didn't indoctrinate anyone is due to the fact he was destroyed. The Derelict Reaper was mostly intact.

It'll definately be interesting to see how Bioware handle that choice.

[PsyrenY]

I did not keep it, because I see very little chance of TIM using the tech ethically, and I see no way to hand the base over to someone else without it ending up in TIM's hands as a result.

There is also a renegade justification for destroying the base; Without the Reaper tech, I am TIM's best card against the Reapers AND the best advocate for human dominance he has. He therefore has a reason to make sure I live all the way to the last battle and beyond.

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I suspect that TIM, if he gets the Collector base, will wait for the first signs of Reaper presence to show up in the galaxy; once they arrive, he'll use his own influence heavily to take effective control of the Alliance. If Shepard saved the Council, his puppets will claim that humanity needs to lead the charge against the Reapers because of direct experience; if the Council died, they can simply use brute force. If this doesn't go smoothly, the defenders would collapse into infighting, and if it did, the Alliance and Cerberus would have total control of the galaxy. It might be preferable to extinction, but it'd not a price I'd want to pay unless I was quite sure I'd lose without it.

[Barquiel]

LorDC wrote...

a) Base will not be accepted as evidence.
Giving base to the Council will only strengthen tyranny of the Council.

a) Why? They accepted Tali's audio files after all. It's worth a try.
good...because every race can close its embassy if they don't like the council tyranny. The batarians did, and nobody declared war on them.
Let's say we find some hyper-advanced reaper cannons.
- give it to the council: we have 84 dreadnoughts with new weapons
- give it to TIM: 8 alliance dreadnoughts with new weapons

As I said, the game doesn't give me the option to role-play (because BW assumes that renegade Shep = pro cerberus/obsessed with human dominance?). But we know that paragon Shep will be able to save the galaxy, too...
no desolated galaxy.

Modifié par Barquiel, 26 septembre 2010 - 08:32 .

[Ieldra]

wizardryforever wrote...

LorDC wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...
I'm of the opinion that using the Reaper technology is not the brightest idea, simply because they most likely know how to counter their own technology.  True, they didn't intend for anybody to get this tech, but we still have a better chance if we come up with our own ideas, instead of constantly using theirs.

So we should just hope for some miraculous new technology to be invented? Yeah, Mordin should have prayed to god instead of studying seeker swarms.

Please, that's a complete strawman argument.  We should use our own creations instead of mooching off of the Reapers.  Besides, Mordin's countermeasure was something he came up with on his own, he didn't steal from the Reapers.

No strawman argument: Mordin needed a sample from the Collectors' swarms to be able to counter it. Just the same, to counter indoctrination, we need to understand how it works. That it's so far been a mystery makes it only more compelling. Learning to defend against weapons is easy in comparison - they apply force in varying degrees, and basically you need better shields and armor and that's that.

[philiposophy]

I keep the base even though I have some apprehensions about Cerberus. Here's some reasons why:

1. You might get useful information and technology from it. This is TIM's argument for the base and it makes sense. We don't know what actually is there, but if we can salvage it, it's worth doing so.

2. Giving it to TIM is a calculated risk. The base is in a difficult to reach (and extremely hazardous!) location and some of Cerberus' actions are questionable, but the potential payoff trumps the risks:

• Cerberus are one of the few groups who are actually doing something about the reapers, and have even offered generous support to Shepard. The stakes here are massive so you can't afford to be too picky about allies. Also, their support of Shepard means that Shepard WILL be given access to any benefits of the research.
• Cerberus cells have a tendency to end in disaster that's probably higher than Alliance operations, but by the same token they result in more frequent and greater breakthroughs. Giving the base to Cerberus could end in chaos, but the potential benefits are huge. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

3. The arguments Shepard gives for destroying it are lame. As a result, I can't stand choosing that option. It isn't a betrayal of the people who died there to keep it, as you're not going to be carrying on the collectors' work. You're going to study it to gain an edge and stop it from ever happening. It would be a greater betrayal if you didn't take the advantage to make their deaths mean something.

4. Worrying about the potential domination of the galaxy by Cerberus is shortsighted. There won't be any galactic civilization if the reapers aren't stopped. Cerberus are an issue for a later date, when the galaxy is safe. For now, any advantage or help is more pressing than what they might do with it afterwards.

5. Martin Sheen is a great actor and I like having him on my side.

[UNAVAILABLE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I agree, but studying such a thing can take more time than is available, especially since you don't know for sure if its there. As I said, I don't assert that these devices would be trying to indoctrinate people, simply allow the Reapers to communicate with them. Why would scientists dedicate themselves to studying a signal that they have no reason to believe is present?

In those devices? They wouldn't. Indoctrination in general? Would you like it alphabetically or chronologically? Regardless, once you can detect indoctrination in general, such a signal would be detected as well, and it's transmiter recognized.

I certainly understand the reasoning behind studying indoctrination in general, but weren't all the known sources for indoctrination destroyed? I admit that I believe that a Reaper factory must contain that technology somehow, somewhere, but unless the base is actively indoctrinating people, that information could well be very difficult to find/decrypt/translate/whatever. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think that signal could be studied unless you have an active source.

One thing we do know about indoctrination is that it has a range limit. Proximity is required for it to register. Working as some sort of FTL signal, nothing has suggested it can do that.

I have two possible ideas about that. You are absolutely correct about the range of indoctrination. But consider that indoctrination is transmitting that information to a brain, not a device that was designed specifically to receive it. I admit that I'm delving into unfounded speculation at this point, but its possible that because of the complexity of the task involved, the indoctrinated must be within close proximity to the source (like 4 signal bar strength on a cell phone). However, using the same type of energy to send a simple communication to a device that was designed specifically to pick it up, that could have a longer range.

Idea 2. Is it safe to assume that the Reapers can manipulate one and only one type of energy that we lack the ability to detect? As far as I can remember, nothing in the game has described how Reapers communicate with each other. I would assume that they have long range communications. Harbinger was able to remote control the Collector General from outside the galaxy without too many problems, and EDI never mentioned detecting any signals that could explain it.

And, as you admitted in-post, the Reapers can find those sites by conventional means: it's going to be hard to hide a colony world or factory world at this point.

I admitted that some of those things could be located via Reaper conventional means, primarily data in the Citadel. I am asserting that there is critical strategic information that you could give up that is not stored in the Citadel. Remember that the Protheans had all their data in the Citadel because it was the heart of their civilization. Earth is still the center of human civilization. I doubt the Alliance tells the Council the location of every single one of its top secret bases. I'm sure the salarians, turians, asari, et al. are the same way. In this extinction cycle, information gathering from diverse sources is going to be even more important to the Reapers than it was with the Protheans.

This got brought up in the last thread, so I'll mention it here and now, copying technology doesn't entail copying systems. Indoctrinations, signal devices, these have to be built in to work. While whole-scale copying might do that, building new items on your own does not, especially as you reverse engineer them.

When the extinction clock is ticking which is faster?
a) copying systems
 breaking down the technology into its component parts, studying each part until you've discerned all the scientific principles involved in making it work, R & D new parts, and redesign the system using your own tech.

Which did humanity (and the galaxy as a whole) do last time it got access to Reaper tech (mass relays)?

Additionally, I would say you are overlooking the potential extent of human ignorance. Consider how electricity and magnetism work together, each affecting the other. Is it not possible for the Reapers to include in their tech a device that we'll call "widget" that serves two functions, and is based upon such a mated pair of scientific principles? Suppose our awesome genius scientists study "widget" and they figure out how it works in the context of the device they are studying. "Widget's" secondary function is to act as a communication device for the Reapers. But as you admitted in your post, the scientists wouldn't be looking for signals that they would have no reason to believe are present, so the secondary function escapes their notice. However, because of the relationship between the mated-pair scientific principles you cannot create "widget" in such a way that it performs the primary function, but excludes the secondary function. In such a case, even redesigning the tech from scratch has potential weaknesses.

Modifié par UNAVAILABLE, 26 septembre 2010 - 10:06 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I agree, but studying such a thing can take more time than is available, especially since you don't know for sure if its there. As I said, I don't assert that these devices would be trying to indoctrinate people, simply allow the Reapers to communicate with them. Why would scientists dedicate themselves to studying a signal that they have no reason to believe is present?[/quote]

In those devices? They wouldn't. Indoctrination in general? Would you like it alphabetically or chronologically? Regardless, once you can detect indoctrination in general, such a signal would be detected as well, and it's transmiter recognized.[/quote]

I certainly understand the reasoning behind studying indoctrination in general, but weren't all the known sources for indoctrination destroyed? I admit that I believe that a Reaper factory must contain that technology somehow, somewhere, but unless the base is actively indoctrinating people, that information could well be very difficult to find/decrypt/translate/whatever. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think that signal could be studied unless you have an active source.[/quote]I'm afraid I'm missing your point. You know that the knowledge should be somewhere in that base: the reaper they were building has it, the Collectors were indoctrinated (via cybernetics at this point), the husk-creating Dragon's Teeth have been tied to it. Keeping the base allows you to find it. What is in dispute?

From an engineering standpoint, a device doesn't have to be on to be studied, ie that active source doesn't have to be active the start to learn how the system works. You can, say, learn alot about how a radio will work simply by looking inside.

Studying a system while it's on has its important part to play as well, of course, but it doesn't need to be on the entire time.

Part of the issue from an engineering aspect for your 'let's hide indoctrination in these weapons when they copy them' is that, well, few people do straightout copy things like that. The thannix wasn't ripped out of Sovereign and coppied piece for piece, feature for feature: they looked at it, removed a lot of what they didn't understand/know/need, and made that into the Thannix. Design elements that have no purpose aren't likely to be copied at all, and are soonest to be caught, once you start replicating the technology as opposed to the system itself.



[quote]
I have two possible ideas about that. You are absolutely correct about the range of indoctrination. But consider that indoctrination is transmitting that information to a brain, not a device that was designed specifically to receive it. I admit that I'm delving into unfounded speculation at this point, but its possible that because of the complexity of the task involved, the indoctrinated must be within close proximity to the source (like 4 signal bar strength on a cell phone). However, using the same type of energy to send a simple communication to a device that was designed specifically to pick it up, that could have a longer range.[/quote]I'll just leave be at 'unfounded speculation.'

Indoctrination is described as a field effect, and one of the tendencies of fields is that they decrease rapidly the further away you get from them. Like, inversly proportional fast. Magnetic fields, for example are inversely proportional to the square of the distance: if you move two units away, it's four times as week, three times is nine, four is a sixteenth of the original...

That sort of thing loses effect very, very quickly. And when you get in terms of space, where we aren't measuring in meters but light years, and light years are the new insignificant distance... to make an field strong enough to detect with precision would require such an amplitude that the power draw would be a dead giveaway (if it could be supplied at all). Fields aren't good beacons unless you're already very close to them.


[quote]
Idea 2. Is it safe to assume that the Reapers can manipulate one and only one type of energy that we lack the ability to detect? As far as I can remember, nothing in the game has described how Reapers communicate with each other.[/quote]The implication from Retribution is that they have built-in quantam communications: sort of like the Normandy, but down to the level of cybernetics.
[quote]
I would assume that they have long range communications. Harbinger was able to remote control the Collector General from outside the galaxy without too many problems, and EDI never mentioned detecting any signals that could explain it.[/quote]Again, quantum state com: it bypasses the light-speed barrier by going around it. Mass Effect lore is rather firm that no regular signal can go FTL without significant Mass Effect infrastructure (combuyues, for example), which a conventional control signal would have to to get from Darkspace and back in the time.

One in-game fact against Harbringer having direct control with the base is that Harbringer uses the Collector General, and the Collectors at all, to interface with the base. When the base is blowing up and Harbringer-possessed General is typing at the controls, it begs the question of 'why'? The Reapers don't like relying on organics for anything. Possessing the organic collector general to interface via computer keyboard when a basic direct connection to the base would allow him to bypass it and work without the interface barrier... it doesn't make much sense, and supports the game's position that capturing the base is just that.


[quote]
I admitted that some of those things could be located via Reaper conventional means, primarily data in the Citadel. I am asserting that there is critical strategic information that you could give up that is not stored in the Citadel. Remember that the Protheans had all their data in the Citadel because it was the heart of their civilization. Earth is still the center of human civilization. I doubt the Alliance tells the Council the location of every single one of its top secret bases. I'm sure the salarians, turians, asari, et al. are the same way. In this extinction cycle, information gathering from diverse sources is going to be even more important to the Reapers than it was with the Protheans.[/quote]Part of this as well is that the Reapers don't need 'just' the Citadel information: the Collector General has long been running a Shadow-Broker tier intelligence ring for centuries, and Sovereign had his own manipulations and insights as well. Any location that already existed may already be compromised.

'Secret' bases are sexy, but they aren't really necessary for productionWhile R&D benefits from seclusion, actual production benefits from supply chains, and can just as easily be mixed both secret places and on already settled worlds. Like Earth.,

It's all rather academic and bantering at this point, because by the time the Reapers arrive knocking out those bases is more or
less moot: their most significant gains have already been made. Sort of how like the Reapers 'recapturing' the Collector Base won't make a strategic difference, because by the time they could harvest the populations to build more Reapers they would already be in a position to win the war, and if you destroy the base they can simply rebuild it upon their return.



[quote]
When the extinction clock is ticking which is faster?
a) copying systems
 breaking down the technology into its component parts, studying each part until you've discerned all the scientific principles involved in making it work, R & D new parts, and redesign the system using your own tech[/quote]In order to copy the systems effectively, (a) breaking them down into component parts, ( is generally necessary. Especially since the Collectors are fond of anti-fabrication technologies (meaning copy and paste is effectively impossible in the first place: based off of the Collector Particle beam description).

This especially comes true as you want integrated systems. The Collector gear is made to integrate with collector systems. Cerberus and the Alliance use human systems. To produce things that work with their own systems, they need things that are made to work with them. When making things to work with your systems, you look to learn what needs to be carried over versus what does not.

Copying the systems as a whole might make sense for, oh, the first round of weapons or so. But producing them wholescale as is, without reworking them or using them as a basis to boost your existing systems, does not.

.[quote]
Which did humanity (and the galaxy as a whole) do last time it got access to Reaper tech (mass relays)?[/quote[Copied technologies. Well, humans did: they got a e-zero production plant out of Mars, but the rest was repurposed tech. The weapons of Shaxni weren't copies of stuff found on Mars.

[Dean_the_Young]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Additionally, I would say you are overlooking the potential extent of human ignorance. Consider how electricity and magnetism work together, each affecting the other. Is it not possible for the Reapers to include in their tech a device that we'll call "widget" that serves two functions, and is based upon such a mated pair of scientific principles?

Possible, yes. Likely that they re-designed and implemented all their equipment like so in a last-minute trap to slip a new hidden feature in days before the Commander crashed down the door, as proposed by your contingency? No. Not at all.

Suppose our awesome genius scientists study "widget" and they figure out how it works in the context of the device they are studying. "Widget's" secondary function is to act as a communication device for the Reapers. But as you admitted in your post, the scientists wouldn't be looking for signals that they would have no reason to believe are present, so the secondary function escapes their notice. However, because of the relationship between the mated-pair scientific principles you cannot create "widget" in such a way that excludes the secondary function. In such a case, even redesigning the tech from scratch has potential weaknesses.

First, I recall admitting no such thing. In fact, I seem to recall that once they could find indoctrination, they would notice it soon.

Second, d0ual-functiontechnologies virtually always can be replaced by two single function devices. Perhaps not as well, or as effectively, but we don't need perfect replication. Nor do we want it.

I'd like to take a step back and just look over your overall point, rather than be bogged down in ever narrower details.

What is your position?

My memory is getting fuzzy at what your original point was. Is your position that the Collectors have booby trapped all their weapons, gear, data designs, and materials with unremovable secondary functions in hopes that they will not be noticed for the purpose of secretly signalling/sabatoging reverse engineering efforts? That they did this all in the time span of learning Shepard had the means to cross the Mass Relay, attack, and possibly seize their base? (I seem to remember your scenario including something last minute about the change.)

...why?

If they don't want humans getting the benefit of the technology, there are two much simpler, straight forward, and more likely options they could take for the same or less effort: (a) fortify the base to repel and defeat invaders, preventing anyone from getting the technology, or ( putting in a self-destruct sequence that they can activate should capture seem immenent (or even just make capture impossible by preventing a neutron purge).

Post-trap booby trap conspiracies tend to put so much effort into mitigating the fruits of reverse engineering that they overlook that no engineering can be done if Shepard can't capture the base, and that the means to do that are far simpler, straightforward, less circumventable than hidden functionality changes.

[General User]

I destroyed the Collector Base for the propaganda value.



The Mass Effect galaxy is extraordinarily divided along racial lines. A situation that would be undesirable during peace time, but may well be fatal in the face of the Reaper threat.



Having a multi-species commando unit strike a major and total blow against the Reapers will be a critical rallying point when it comes time for their respective species as a whole to take up the fight.

[Dean_the_Young]

'Ah, yes, Reapers...'



Or, in this case,



'Ah, yes, Collectors...'

[wizardryforever]

Ieldra2 wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

LorDC wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...
I'm of the opinion that using the Reaper technology is not the brightest idea, simply because they most likely know how to counter their own technology.  True, they didn't intend for anybody to get this tech, but we still have a better chance if we come up with our own ideas, instead of constantly using theirs.

So we should just hope for some miraculous new technology to be invented? Yeah, Mordin should have prayed to god instead of studying seeker swarms.

Please, that's a complete strawman argument.  We should use our own creations instead of mooching off of the Reapers.  Besides, Mordin's countermeasure was something he came up with on his own, he didn't steal from the Reapers.

No strawman argument: Mordin needed a sample from the Collectors' swarms to be able to counter it. Just the same, to counter indoctrination, we need to understand how it works. That it's so far been a mystery makes it only more compelling. Learning to defend against weapons is easy in comparison - they apply force in varying degrees, and basically you need better shields and armor and that's that.

His argument was a strawman because he claimed that my argument was all about hoping we come up with something.  It isn't.  My argument was to favor new ideas and technologies, not rehashed Reaper tech.  Naturally you need to study weapons in order to defend against them, but this is a double edged sword.  The Reapers will know better than we will how to defend against their own weapons.  So any adopted tech is not going to be as effective as similarly independently created tech by default (as long as power levels are equal).  There's no reason why new tech can't be researched along with reverse-engineered Reaper smoothie machines, but it seems like the stolen tech isn't going to be as useful as everyone hopes.

As a side note, it is never explained where Mordin got his swarm sample.  Freedom's Progress, most likely, but it's not certain.  Maybe he created one from the raw data from Veetor's omni-tool?  Either way, his tech (and any tech) was completely untested, and we only had his theory to work with.

Honestly, I don't like the long-term implications of giving the Ilusive Man something like that.  It seems short-sighted to only think of the immediate future, with no care at all for the long term.  Yeah, the base might help against the Reapers, but who is going to have this technology when (not if) the Reapers are defeated?  Certainly not everyone.  It will almost certainly have dire ramifications for the aftermath.

[UNAVAILABLE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
I certainly understand the reasoning behind studying indoctrination in general, but weren't all the known sources for indoctrination destroyed? I admit that I believe that a Reaper factory must contain that technology somehow, somewhere, but unless the base is actively indoctrinating people, that information could well be very difficult to find/decrypt/translate/whatever. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think that signal could be studied unless you have an active source.

I'm afraid I'm missing your point. You know that the knowledge should be somewhere in that base: the reaper they were building has it, the Collectors were indoctrinated (via cybernetics at this point), the husk-creating Dragon's Teeth have been tied to it. Keeping the base allows you to find it. What is in dispute?

From an engineering standpoint, a device doesn't have to be on to be studied, ie that active source doesn't have to be active the start to learn how the system works. You can, say, learn alot about how a radio will work simply by looking inside.

I agree with your looking in the radio analogy, but my point is - how likely is it that you are going to be able to find and identify that radio to look inside it. Especially if it's not on. If the base is not actively indoctrinating people (sticking with your analogy, there is no radio on board), then you're best bet is to try and find the programming instructions for the nanomachines/processes involved in creating a Reaper. Assuming that Harbinger did not erase/corrupt this info before disconnecting, and assuming that you can translate this code into something humans can understand - how do you locate which part of that, presumably massive, codebase creates the indoctrination transmitter? It would be like looking at the MS Windows code and trying to find the function that creates an "OK" button, but without the ability to do a text search for the word "OK". Needle in a few dozen haystacks.

Also, on the list of things that need to be studied before the Reapers get here, how high on the priority list is indoctrination? When the Reaper fleet shows up, they're not going to indoctrinate the galaxy to death.

I would assume that they have long range communications. Harbinger was able to remote control the Collector General from outside the galaxy without too many problems, and EDI never mentioned detecting any signals that could explain it.

Again, quantum state com: it bypasses the light-speed barrier by going around it. Mass Effect lore is rather firm that no regular signal can go FTL without significant Mass Effect infrastructure (combuyues, for example), which a conventional control signal would have to to get from Darkspace and back in the time.

If the Reapers can communicate long distance in ways that are undetectable, then my hypothesis that devices built from their tech can be compromised, remains valid.

When the extinction clock is ticking which is faster?
a) copying systems
 breaking down the technology into its component parts, studying each part until you've discerned all the scientific principles involved in making it work, R & D new parts, and redesign the system using your own tech

In order to copy the systems effectively, (a) breaking them down into component parts, ( is generally necessary. Especially since the Collectors are fond of anti-fabrication technologies (meaning copy and paste is effectively impossible in the first place: based off of the Collector Particle beam description).

Part of my original hypothesis was that Harbinger left these techs specifically for the purpose of allowing humans to copy/paste them. Not too easily of course. If the plans found on the base were in English, and in PDF format it would obviously be a trap. The Reapers have been watching us for a while, they've probably guaged what our scientists are capable of, and the Reapers would hand over something that's challenging, but not impossible for them to crack. 

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

'Ah, yes, Reapers...'

Or, in this case,

'Ah, yes, Collectors...'

It's true, the Council hasn't exactly been receptive to blindingly obvious facts in the past.  On the other hand...


Rallying the galaxy may or may not include the Council. Given the incredible level of denial they seem to be capable of and the real possibility they would want to run the war, I almost think we’d be better off without them. 
 
If they won’t see the truth, fudge ‘em, take the evidence to their superiors. Go straight to the asari, salarian, turian, human (also elcor, krogan, quarian, geth, etc., etc.) homeworlds or capitols and make your case there directly to the decision makers in those respective societies. It’s more or less what it looks like Shep is going to have to do anyway, just a few extra stops on this route.
 
If any particular species or planet (turians, I’m looking in your direction) doesn’t get onboard with team Shepard, so be it. It’s not like Shep can force the hand of a sovereign state to begin with, we’ll just have to do as best we can when they do finally manage to pull their heads out of “wherever (their) species traditionally crams things.” -Hermes Conrad.
 
In nutshell, my point is that a united galaxy is far more important to successfully repel/defeat the Reapers than any particular knowledge or technology or even a combination of technologies. Blowing up the base can help create that unity.  

[DPSSOC]

General User wrote...
In nutshell, my point is that a united galaxy is far more important to successfully repel/defeat the Reapers than any particular knowledge or technology or even a combination of technologies. Blowing up the base can help create that unity.  

If you try to fight a Grizzly with sticks you'll lose, if you gather up a dozen of your buddies and try to fight a Grizzly with sticks you'll still lose.

Galactic unity is necessary, no doubt, but there is also a technological gap that needs to be addressed.  If we can't study Reaper tech we can't counter it, and if we can't counter it we will fail.  Think of what it took to take down Sovereign, without learning more about the Reapers how can we hope to take down hundreds or possibly thousands of them?

[UNAVAILABLE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...
Additionally, I would say you are overlooking the potential extent of human ignorance. Consider how electricity and magnetism work together, each affecting the other. Is it not possible for the Reapers to include in their tech a device that we'll call "widget" that serves two functions, and is based upon such a mated pair of scientific principles?

Possible, yes. Likely that they re-designed and implemented all their equipment like so in a last-minute trap to slip a new hidden feature in days before the Commander crashed down the door, as proposed by your contingency? No. Not at all.

You're assuming that this required major redesign and implementation. Even if it does, how difficult is it for the Reapers to do that on technology that humans are capable of understanding? How many times have the Reapers played this game? Or should we assume that the Reapers have forgotten that a major part of their success is based upon deceitful/dual purpose tech and they no longer consider that a strategy worth pursuing?

Suppose our awesome genius scientists study "widget" and they figure out how it works in the context of the device they are studying. "Widget's" secondary function is to act as a communication device for the Reapers. But as you admitted in your post, the scientists wouldn't be looking for signals that they would have no reason to believe are present, so the secondary function escapes their notice. However, because of the relationship between the mated-pair scientific principles you cannot create "widget" in such a way that excludes the secondary function. In such a case, even redesigning the tech from scratch has potential weaknesses.

First, I recall admitting no such thing. In fact, I seem to recall that once they could find indoctrination, they would notice it soon.

I wish I could easily quote from the earlier posts, but the best I can remember is that I asked "why would scientists be studying a signal that they have no reason to believe is present?" To which you responded "on those devices, they wouldn't." In my example, I'm specifically referring to "those devices". But anyway, I don't want to quibble over indoctrination since my main point is about undetectable signals, of which indoctrination is but one example.

Second, d0ual-functiontechnologies virtually always can be replaced by two single function devices. Perhaps not as well, or as effectively, but we don't need perfect replication. Nor do we want it.

My point was relating to a device, "widget" in which the second function is unknown/undetectable, and is intrinsically present (like a side effect) of the primary function. If that makes sense. When manufactured, even to human design standards this "widget" performs its primary function as expected, but also performs the second unknown/undetectable function.

I'd like to take a step back and just look over your overall point, rather than be bogged down in ever narrower details.

What is your position?

My position is that Harbinger had enough advanced warning of Shepard's approach to blank the hard drives of truly useful data, and replace it with data that the Reapers want us to have for their benefit.

If they don't want humans getting the benefit of the technology, there are two much simpler, straight forward, and more likely options they could take for the same or less effort: (a) fortify the base to repel and defeat invaders, preventing anyone from getting the technology, or ( putting in a self-destruct sequence that they can activate should capture seem immenent (or even just make capture impossible by preventing a neutron purge).

The reason that neither of these two outcomes occurred is what makes me suspicious that it could be a trap. Assuming that Shepard goes immediately from installing the IFF (when Harbinger learns she has it) to breaching the O-4 relay, then there's no time to build new Occuli or Collector cruisers. However, there would be plenty of time to organize the ground forces into an effective defense. Instead of an organized ground resistance, we find no intruder alarms, no mines/traps, no snipers at the choke points, just a bunch of enemies scrambling to get into position ahead of you, like they just received the "we're under attack" memo.

Post-trap booby trap conspiracies tend to put so much effort into mitigating the fruits of reverse engineering that they overlook that no engineering can be done if Shepard can't capture the base, and that the means to do that are far simpler, straightforward, less circumventable than hidden functionality changes.

That's why in my original post I include my list of viable alternatives. Again, I'm not stating that there are NO valid reasons to keep the base. I'm arguing against the position that there are NO valid reasons to destroy it.

[Dean_the_Young]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

I agree with your looking in the radio analogy, but my point is - how likely is it that you are going to be able to find and identify that radio to look inside it. Especially if it's not on. If the base is not actively indoctrinating people (sticking with your analogy, there is no radio on board), then you're best bet is to try and find the programming instructions for the nanomachines/processes involved in creating a Reaper. Assuming that Harbinger did not erase/corrupt this info before disconnecting, and assuming that you can translate this code into something humans can understand - how do you locate which part of that, presumably massive, codebase creates the indoctrination transmitter? It would be like looking at the MS Windows code and trying to find the function that creates an "OK" button, but without the ability to do a text search for the word "OK". Needle in a few dozen haystacks.

Assuming you know something exists, not that hard, relatively speaking. It's a matter of time, not a matter of possibility or even if it exists. Sorting through the Collector Base may be a matter of years before you get everything, but unlike, say, the needle in the haystack, where the straw is useless distraction, much of what you can find in the base is potent tech in and of itself. Even if you have trouble finding one thing in particular, you'll be stumbling over many other things of value. Rather than needle in a haystack, it may well be a diamond in a pile of rubies.

We already know that we can deal with Reaper code: EDI, after all, hacks the Collector Ship and Base. If there's a problem to be found, it isn't in the Collector's systems are too foreign to interpret. While Harbringer may have (tried?) to disrupt the computer systems, how much he could do, and how much he was allowed to do, is certainly unclear. EDI, after all, was in the systems, and could have easily been fighting his efforts. Not all computer systems are made to be erased. And, of course, hardware exists separate from software.

Also, on the list of things that need to be studied before the Reapers get here, how high on the priority list is indoctrination? When the Reaper fleet shows up, they're not going to indoctrinate the galaxy to death.

Why does this question matter in the context of keeping the base? Naturally, looking into indoctrination is going to be balanced with other priorities based on how easy/hard it actual is to find/look into. But for obvious reasons it has a high potential payoff.

The Reapers indoctrination is an important facilitator of their conquests: as Vigil tells us, some worlds they conquer for the sole purpose of indoctrinating armies and spies. Indoctrination study can help detect those indoctrinated (as Vigil was able to do), preventing espionage, and also lead to ways to block it (which we know can be done, as Saren's cells on Virmire allowed for separate test groups, meaning each cell didn't 'leak' into the others), and hopefully even a cure/means to reverse it.

If the Reapers can communicate long distance in ways that are undetectable, then my hypothesis that devices built from their tech can be compromised, remains valid.

Not really. The systems would have to be duplicated as well, and that's hard to do. Quantum com systems like the Normandy's cost almost as much as a ship itself: economics of warfare would prohibit the copying of those.

It simply costs too much for such specialized technology. You can't 'accidentally' include highly advanced communication systems when they require such precision and specialized components any more than you can 'accidentally' trip and stumble your way into an Olympics gymnastics routine.

You thesis is based on the assumptions that a com system can be hidden without notice or replacement at virtually no cost to the reproducer. But since such inter-galactic technology is discernable (as Retribution evidences), and is costly (as EDI testifies), and there is no sign that it's irreplaceable (or any sign that it exists in more mundane equipment), it's groundless or flawed on most of its basis.

Part of my original hypothesis was that Harbinger left these techs specifically for the purpose of allowing humans to copy/paste them. Not too easily of course. If the plans found on the base were in English, and in PDF format it would obviously be a trap. The Reapers have been watching us for a while, they've probably guaged what our scientists are capable of, and the Reapers would hand over something that's challenging, but not impossible for them to crack. 

Why should Harbinger let humans copy-paste technology, and risk them deciperhing the trap (or simply side-stepping it by actually looking inside the technology)?That they have reason and capability to think to look for it is already demonstrated by you.

Especially when all other evidence and actions by the Reapers and Collectors has been that they did NOT want Shepard and Cerberus to ever beat them, pass through the Relay, and/or capture the Base?

Nothing in-game suggests that the Reapers wanted Shepard to pass through the relay, to stop the Collectors, to take the base. These are all higher priorities to the Reapers than the grand disaster of... not much, really, should Cerberus start cracking Reaper technologies and hit a dead end. (And if they don't, then the Reapers can only lose.)


The Reapers have much higher priorities to advance their goals, among them not being stopped in the first place. For the effort of re-inventing their hardware at a moment's notice, they could have actually put external sensors outside their base,  to be able to find and clear intruders trying to attack the base.

[jbblue05]

DPSSOC wrote...

If you try to fight a Grizzly with sticks you'll lose, if you gather up a dozen of your buddies and try to fight a Grizzly with sticks you'll still lose.

Galactic unity is necessary, no doubt, but there is also a technological gap that needs to be addressed.  If we can't study Reaper tech we can't counter it, and if we can't counter it we will fail.  Think of what it took to take down Sovereign, without learning more about the Reapers how can we hope to take down hundreds or possibly thousands of them?

 They know they are going to win if you destroy the base or not

Just like saving the council its stupid to make Alliance reinforcements meat shields for the Destiny Ascension to escape when Sovereign and the Geth obliterated the Council's fleet. You need the entire Arcturus fleet to focus on Sovereign because you don't know how powerful he is.  I rather lose to Sovereign and throw my entire fleet at it then lose and wonder if those ships we lost saving the Council could have made a huge difference

But they knew if you save the council or let them die  your still going to win

Sadly Bioware gave you the same cutscene if you saved or let the Council Die. It didn't really matter that you lost ships or had moire ships,

Why are most people arguments for destroying the base: 

"Cerberus is Evil"
"Tim is going to use it for Evil"
"The Base is Evil"
"Reaper Tech is Evil"
"Screw TIM"

It seems some only want to believe Cerberus is going to use it for evil  it seems like they don't use logic or reasoning and just going off their hatred of Cerberus
All organic technology is based off of Reaper technolgy.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

You're assuming that this required major redesign and implementation.

If they didn't implement it, then these changes don't even exist.

Even if it does, how difficult is it for the Reapers to do that on technology that humans are capable of understanding?

On short notice, with limited resources and supplies? Generally high, if only from a logistics standpoint. Technology doesn't tend towards 'oh, we can replace amplifier X with Radio Y and no one will notice.'

With time? Perhaps. But short notice? No.

How many times have the Reapers played this game? Or should we assume that the Reapers have forgotten that a major part of their success is based upon deceitful/dual purpose tech and they no longer consider that a strategy worth pursuing?

Witty, but those were things they intended to be found, and they were meant to be used. Things that weren't, aren't. Like the Heretic Virus, the Thannix, or EDI (Sovereign fragments).

The Collectors were never supposed to be reached in the first place, and couldn't be reached until immediately before the Suicide Mission. It isn't until the IFF goes off that Harbinger has a valid concern that he can even be reached.

My point was relating to a device, "widget" in which the second function is unknown/undetectable, and is intrinsically present (like a side effect) of the primary function. If that makes sense. When manufactured, even to human design standards this "widget" performs its primary function as expected, but also performs the second unknown/undetectable function.

Secondary functions depend on secondary systems, which are quickly revealed once technology is examined and studied, which Cerberus would also be doing.

My position is that Harbinger had enough advanced warning of Shepard's approach to blank the hard drives of truly useful data, and replace it with data that the Reapers want us to have for their benefit.

That would be the IFF raid, correct? 

Your position is that Harbinger and the Collectors, in a space ranging from hours to days, managed to redesign every technology system to include hidden functions and unknown systems (some of which Cerberus already has samples of)

Just for more clarification:

What, precisely, is supposed to happen with these systems? What do they do? I remember signalling the location of these bases for when the Reapers arrive?

The reason that neither of these two outcomes occurred is what makes me suspicious that it could be a trap. Assuming that Shepard goes immediately from installing the IFF (when Harbinger learns she has it) to breaching the O-4 relay, then there's no time to build new Occuli or Collector cruisers. However, there would be plenty of time to organize the ground forces into an effective defense. Instead of an organized ground resistance, we find no intruder alarms, no mines/traps, no snipers at the choke points, just a bunch of enemies scrambling to get into position ahead of you, like they just received the "we're under attack" memo.

She? That's sexist to assume! [/haha]

Or, it could be a sign that the Collectors have been caught flat footed. Which fits other signs just as well, if not better.

It's hard to say that the Collector Base wasn't about as well defended as it could be given what they had at the time: we really don't know what they had available to use and move. The Collectors weren't a large force in the first place, and there wasn't one sole approach to guard: Shepard's ship could have crashed/landed anywhere on the base, and everyone knows what happens when you equally try to defend all points: given the size of the base and the lack of external sensors, it was impossible for the Collectors to focus defenses in one spot.

Plus there are aspects of the medium, and game play. No one on any side uses claymores, for example, or tactical snipers as we think of them. No gas attacks, no tactical demolition either. Then again, the Mass Effect universe doesn't have a stated reason for why ground armies matter in the first place, yet they treat Krogan/Rachni breeding as a major issue.

Post-trap booby trap conspiracies tend to put so much effort into mitigating the fruits of reverse engineering that they overlook that no engineering can be done if Shepard can't capture the base, and that the means to do that are far simpler, straightforward, less circumventable than hidden functionality changes.

That's why in my original post I include my list of viable alternatives. Again, I'm not stating that there are NO valid reasons to keep the base. I'm arguing against the position that there are NO valid reasons to destroy it.

Ah, well my friend, that was never in doubt.

Stupidity is a valid reason. :happy:


(But seriously, you've probably given the most well thought out objects I've heard in months. Kudos, even if I do think it's largely baseless in the game, but you have my respect for arguing so well.)

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 septembre 2010 - 12:17 .

[General User]

DPSSOC wrote...

General User wrote...
In nutshell, my point is that a united galaxy is far more important to successfully repel/defeat the Reapers than any particular knowledge or technology or even a combination of technologies. Blowing up the base can help create that unity.  

If you try to fight a Grizzly with sticks you'll lose, if you gather up a dozen of your buddies and try to fight a Grizzly with sticks you'll still lose.

Galactic unity is necessary, no doubt, but there is also a technological gap that needs to be addressed.  If we can't study Reaper tech we can't counter it, and if we can't counter it we will fail.  Think of what it took to take down Sovereign, without learning more about the Reapers how can we hope to take down hundreds or possibly thousands of them?

Given the relative disparity in technology, our side could be the grizzly in this analogy. And, unless Animal Planet has lied to me, bears are intimidated by loud noises and groups of humans, especially coordinated, experienced groups of humans.  But I take your point.
 
But back on topic: “Ah, yes, the ‘technology gap.’ I have dismissed that claim.” -not really-
 
I would argue that defining technologies or techniques as advanced or primitive is a rather inaccurate way of looking at them. Technology, like a great many other things should be evaluated on how effective it is. In this regard the galactic state of the art is really quite close to Reaper tech.
 
Small unit actions (particularly ones lead by a certain human whose last name starts with S), have proven to be extraordinarily effective against the Reapers and their lackeys. When paired with a solid fleet, the technique is a proven Reaper killer.
 
And speaking of Reaper killers, as has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum, the derelict Reaper was killed by a mass accelerator weapon and Sovereign, the only actual full-grown Reaper we’ve faced so far, was protected by massively powerful kinetic barriers. Both of these are known technologies, whose employment differed in degree, not kind, from those already deployed.
 
IMO, the most vital information we could possibly gain on the Reapers isn’t technological at all; it’s political. What are their objectives, short and long term? What are they willing to sacrifice in order to achieve those goals?  What are their origins? How are decisions made amongst them?  Under what conditions would they accept or offer surrender or negotiation (if it’s even possible)?
 
It is these questions, with the exception or the origins one, that are least likely to be answered by the information found in what is essentially a breeding ground.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Great, another thread with base-keepers thinking they're all high and mighty condescending those who blew up the base.



Its as simple as this, TIM cannot be trusted. If shepard were to hold onto the collector base, i wouldn't have blown it up. But you HAVE to give it to TIM. No matter how much of a Cerberus lapdog you are, you know deep inside that TIM will stab you in the back when you are least expecting it. He's already sent you into certain-death situations (evidently not certain death for shepard) without you knowing at all. He already keeps a ****load from shepard, and lies to him on a daily basis.



In short, TIM CANNOT BE TRUSTED. I think all of you know that, even the cerberus loyalists.

[Dean_the_Young]

As long as you have an understanding of what TIM's aims for and how he's willing to go through with things, you can trust TIM more than just about anyone else. It might not be to your benefit, but you can trust him.

[Nightwriter]

I think you'd like to think you understand him, but you really have no idea how far he will or won't go. No one really does. He's deceptive, his identity is a total mystery and he works as hard as he can to keep it that way. Basically, if you've begun to think you understand him, you've become complacent.

I think ultimately you want to think that TIM is logical, and I honestly don't think you can assume that. The only thing you can assume is that he knows how to get what he wants efficiently and ruthlessly.