2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Kavadas wrote...

Hitler could only dream of extermination on the scale in which Stalin operated.

Mainly because Hitler wasn't in power as long.

Because he got stopped.

[scotchtape622]

Thornquist wrote...

I'd like to point out to people that the way you play Mass Effect is very vital to this question.
The sad thing is that many who destroy the base, does this because they are pretty sure that there will, eventually be a "paragon" way to defeat the reapers in ME3 - and they are making this a ethical question by pointing out all the bad things about Cerberus.
The arguments then becomes "Cerberus can do evil this, or that - with the tech".
This is SPECULATION, and will always be.
The things we do know for sure is this:
- There are sentient machines, closing in on our galactic civilization, with greater numbers and greater technology, who are hell-bent on the total annhiliation of all organic life.

If there is even a slightest thing that will improve these grim odds - I will take it. Ethics be damned!

Oh yes, when I roleplay my main Shephard, I also keep the base with the intention of informing the Citadel the moment I leave the Omega Relay. I could go out of character and say that Bioware will never give me that chance - but then I am not roleplaying right.

It is speculation, but war is all about speculation.

[Dean_the_Young]

War is also about based speculation, and weighing of costs.

[scotchtape622]

Yes, and I have speculated that TIM is going to try and build his own Reaper, and IMO it isn't worth that risk.

[philiposophy]

On what basis do you make that speculation?

[Dean_the_Young]

Indeed. Building a human reaper isn't worth the risk. It's really,really stupid on a number of levels, and doesn't provide gains that can't be replicated a lot easier, a lot cheaper, and with a lot less notice.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Yes, and I have speculated that TIM is going to try and build his own Reaper, and IMO it isn't worth that risk.

Why would he do that?

Where would he get all the humans?

What was the point of Stopping the Collectors when we suddenly start up our own insane collector program?

[scotchtape622]

While smud and I had a debate about this, and he disagreed, my primary reason for it was dialogue like this (paraphrased):



"For all I know, you'll use it to build your own Reaper!"

"You know that I'll do anything..." (not sure of the exact words)



Using my knowledge of psychology and interrogation, I know that is a lie of omission (he never says "No" or "I won't build a Reaper"). Using evidence of Cerberus's actions in the past, they aren't afraid of turning humans into Husks, a Reaper tech. I don't know if they'll make a human reaper, or some other kind, but I'm not taking that risk.

[General User]

It’s impossible for TIM to build his own Reaper!



It is possible for him to build a mini-Reaper. Isn’t that right Mr. Grayson?

[Dean_the_Young]

If you call Grayson a mini-Reaper.



Or a threat to galactic stability as a weapon.

[Elite Midget]

This is ME... Nothing is impossible.

The Reapers thought it was impossible for the Keepers to ever rebel against their indoctornation and it ended with a dead Soveriegn.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 04 octobre 2010 - 10:46 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, the y were right about that. The keepers didn't rebel.

[Arijharn]

scotchtape622 wrote...

While smud and I had a debate about this, and he disagreed, my primary reason for it was dialogue like this (paraphrased):

"For all I know, you'll use it to build your own Reaper!"
"You know that I'll do anything..." (not sure of the exact words)

I call that hyperbole to illustrate just how ruthless TIM could be, not as an admission that he could or even would make a Reaper.

I made a nice analogy I think a couple of pages back about whether the burgers were actually better at Hungry Jacks (or is that Burger King where you live?).

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

While smud and I had a debate about this, and he disagreed, my primary reason for it was dialogue like this (paraphrased):

"For all I know, you'll use it to build your own Reaper!"
"You know that I'll do anything..." (not sure of the exact words)

Using my knowledge of psychology and interrogation, I know that is a lie of omission (he never says "No" or "I won't build a Reaper"). Using evidence of Cerberus's actions in the past, they aren't afraid of turning humans into Husks, a Reaper tech. I don't know if they'll make a human reaper, or some other kind, but I'm not taking that risk.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Sajuro]

What is to be gained from the Collector base? the Reaper blueprints are probably imprinted directly into the collectors or the machines and are whatever the language the reapers have which I'm pretty sure isn't covered in the Galactic Translation Database.You already have the collector beam (build it on a larger level) The Collector ship got owned by the Normandy with the Thalinx Cannons. And we already know how to kill a Reaper

[Arijharn]

Sajuro wrote...
What is to be gained from the Collector base? the Reaper blueprints are probably imprinted directly into the collectors or the machines and are whatever the language the reapers have which I'm pretty sure isn't covered in the Galactic Translation Database.

You won't know for sure if you don't explore it. But wait, you can't... because you destroyed it!

Sajuro wrote...
You already have the collector beam (build it on a larger level)

You can't, it presently 'confounds' the scientists when they try it. But you're right, you have a Collector Beam. I now have access to several and also their means of manufacture. I know would know how it does get manufactured so thus I can more easily begin the process of reverse-engineering... because I have a template.

Sajuro wrote...
The Collector ship got owned by the Normandy with the Thalinx Cannons. And we already know how to kill a Reaper

We killed Reapers beforehand through sheer dumb luck honestly, unless you're willing to believe that when it comes to the time when the Reapers are above a planet to bombard they all conveniently take a Saren-like avatar for you to destroy one at a time to allow Joker to perform a coup de grace on each.

As far as you or I know, there are no Reaper larva to destroy before they become cthulu nightmares, so I wouldn't bank on our capabilities to destroy their structural supports and then fire our guns at convenient 'weak spots.'

We do have the Thanix cannon and that's good, but unfortunately they're only deployable on frigates and fighter spacecraft. Don't you think having more options available to you to gain victory to be more preferable than only having a few? What if the Thanix cannon's are also unable to breech a Reaper's heavy kinetic barriers? What if Thanix cannons are too expensive to fit on all frigates and fighters?

[smudboy]

Sajuro wrote...
What is to be gained from the Collector base?

Knowledge on how to build a Reaper.
aka
Knowledge on how to destroy a Reaper.

the Reaper blueprints are probably imprinted directly into the collectors or the machines and are whatever the language the reapers have which I'm pretty sure isn't covered in the Galactic Translation Database.

Say what now?  If you're talking about DNA, then no, it's not a blueprint.

You already have the collector beam (build it on a larger level) The Collector ship got owned by the Normandy with the Thalinx Cannons. And we already know how to kill a Reaper

Do we now?  And how efficient is that process?  How do we kill a Reaper?  I don't seem to recall how, but I surely bet we'll learn not only how to kill a Reaper with the base, but multiple methods and solutions toward that.

[Sajuro]

1. What are you going to do? take the Larva and see how it is put together?



2. I was talking about whatever tech was in the collector's heads would probably have the Reaper layouts, kind of like the greybox



3. We just need to get inside the reapers and destroy the mass effect core, use a Mass Accelerator to burst through their shields (Sir Issac Newton is the deadliest son of a **** in space after all) since we can already fire a 20 kilo feros slug so it hits with the force of a 38 kiloton bomb.

[Arijharn]

Sajuro wrote...

1. What are you going to do? take the Larva and see how it is put together?

Anything that lets us understand their construction methods is useful. Maybe they don't have as thick armour at a certain point? Maybe they have a certain weakness in maintaining kinetic barrier strength under certain conditions that we can exploit? Who knows? Even if that knowledge will come to us naturally during the Reaper invasion, the chances of it coming at the cost of lives then is high, especially considering it could come to us at no or much reduced cost via the Collector base, and may even allow us to upgrade our weaponry in advance of the Reaper menace.

Sajuro wrote...
2. I was talking about whatever tech was in the collector's heads would probably have the Reaper layouts, kind of like the greybox

Maybe, maybe not. In any case if it is in their heads, we still have access to their bodies.

Sajuro wrote...
3. We just need to get inside the reapers and destroy the mass effect core, use a Mass Accelerator to burst through their shields (Sir Issac Newton is the deadliest son of a **** in space after all) since we can already fire a 20 kilo feros slug so it hits with the force of a 38 kiloton bomb.

And yet that means squat at the moment against a Reaper's shield technology that we need to neutralize with as much or with greater haste than even our understanding of how Indoctrination works. If you remember in ME1 the combined firepower of the Alliance 5th fleet was not enough to breech the defence of the Reaper until Shephard and co killed possessed Saren which somehow lowered the shields as well as disrupted the energy supply within Sovereign.

Obviously, in game we will find out the way regardless and eventually, but you know, I can't see Shephard knowing that for sure even if you do.

[Sajuro]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only dreadnought that was fielded at the battle of the citadel was trying to get out of there as fast as possible. We have yet to see how a Dreadnought fairs against a Reaper, not saying it will do that well but it should be able to do something.



But there is one thing the Reapers never counted on

That Humanity, in the face of: Bullets, Peace Treaties, Turians, and Sanity... would dare to be Bad Ass!

[Arijharn]

Sajuro wrote...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only dreadnought that was fielded at the battle of the citadel was trying to get out of there as fast as possible. We have yet to see how a Dreadnought fairs against a Reaper, not saying it will do that well but it should be able to do something.

True, but I would think that the combined tonnage of a fleet would outclass a single vessel, even if said vessel was a bad ass Dreadnought.

But yes, of course, they never counted on Humanity daring to be Bad Ass!

[smudboy]

Sajuro wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only dreadnought that was fielded at the battle of the citadel was trying to get out of there as fast as possible. We have yet to see how a Dreadnought fairs against a Reaper, not saying it will do that well but it should be able to do something.

But there is one thing the Reapers never counted on
That Humanity, in the face of: Bullets, Peace Treaties, Turians, and Sanity... would dare to be Bad Ass!

...and this is what we're arguing with...

[Sajuro]

smudboy wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only dreadnought that was fielded at the battle of the citadel was trying to get out of there as fast as possible. We have yet to see how a Dreadnought fairs against a Reaper, not saying it will do that well but it should be able to do something.

But there is one thing the Reapers never counted on
That Humanity, in the face of: Bullets, Peace Treaties, Turians, and Sanity... would dare to be Bad Ass!

...and this is what we're arguing with...

I just got finished studying bio-psych, so my brain is sleeping right now

[Sajuro]

Arijharn wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only dreadnought that was fielded at the battle of the citadel was trying to get out of there as fast as possible. We have yet to see how a Dreadnought fairs against a Reaper, not saying it will do that well but it should be able to do something.

True, but I would think that the combined tonnage of a fleet would outclass a single vessel, even if said vessel was a bad ass Dreadnought.

But yes, of course, they never counted on Humanity daring to be Bad Ass!

On that note, I want a cruiser named "Andrew Jackson" in ME3.
No, it should be name the "Andrew Mother-Effin Jackson" because he deserves that for taking over Florida :happy:

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Quick reminder: Paragon and Renegade ARE NOT "good" and "evil"... not always. Far more accurate to view them as "Compassionate" and "Stoic".

Paragons are more passive/emotionally moved by the moment types than Renegades are.

Renegades are more aggressive/cold logic types than Paragons are.

Personally I'm a full Paragon but I still kept the base. So this shouldn't be an arguement about Paragons vs Renegades... this is solely about whether or not you keep the base and why.

General Consensus I get from both sides are:

Destroy: Don't trust TIM. Hopes Council was lying to them and are really getting ready for the Reapers (in the face of outright denial from them). Will find a way to beat them without messing with/understanding/countering Reaper technology (fears Reaper failsafes, if any are there) . Feels that though the base built Reapers, it contained nothing useful. Feels previous work relationship with Cerberus can be forgotten if they found out you blew up the base (in the eyes of the galaxy who still mostly believe you're dead).  Feels a united, galactic effort against the Reapers will win more than understanding them.

Keep: May not fully trust TIM but feel the Reapers are the greater threat. Feel TIM can be killed/taken care of if he goes too far. Feels base (because Reapers are built there) has information that could be instrumental in defeating them. Feels Reaper failsafes (if they're even there) are to also be studied and countered. Feels no one else is preparing against the Reapers except for Cerberus as the Council continues to deny their existence. Feels work relationship with Cerberus can be reconcilled and justified in the eyes of the galaxy (in light of the Reaper threat).  Feels exploiting a weakness of/countering the Reapers themselves will win more than attacking with large numbers.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 05 octobre 2010 - 03:14 .