2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Yeah, enough to know Grayson was a part of Cerberus and worth asking Miranda and TIM about. Especially since Anderson knows that was Reaper technology.

[Dean_the_Young]

Elite Midget wrote...

Ever heard of the A bomb?

It caused years of prolonged and unforseen damage to the Japanese people and it lead to the Cold War.

There's one right there and that took no effort at all.

...uh, no.

Knowledge of the A-bomb did not make us immune to the effects of the A-bomb as a weapon. Hence the entire Cold War. Because, you know, the A-bomb worked against us.

Even though we invented it and knew all about how it worked.


Sadly, the rest of your post is about as enlightened as this, and so full of strawmen and hyperboles that I really must commend you on making me not even interested in arguing with you since you don't even understand what I say.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The A-bomb put a global deterrent against large-scale wars. Diplomatic means are now practically mandatory.

[Elite Midget]

Meh, whatever you say. If it makes your Shepard sleep better at night than more power to you.

My Shepard, of course, uses logic and thinks about the past, present, and future and not just the present.

What I find funny is that you have so much faith in Cerberus yet Cerberus couldn't even get the Normandy SR2 up to shape without having Shepard being forced to gathering Alien tech or the fact that Cerberus tech was so bad it couldn't detect that Harbringer used the IFF as a trap even though Harbringer never planned on Shepard ever getting the IFF.

Now, to the above poster...

Why would TIM tell Shepard anything about Grayson? He's a natural lier and he gets away with it constantly. No manner of threat or pushing will get TIM to talk about anything he doesn't come to Shepard first about. As for Miranda? Well, we all know TIM lies to her and that her information isn't always 100% accurate.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 05 octobre 2010 - 07:50 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

You make it sound like Cerberus incompetence instead of the Reapers just being as advanced as they are... having safeguards etc. EDI is the most advanced AI in the Mass Effect universe so far. If she couldn't stop it or detect it, you can't really expect anyone else to.

Hopefully everyone is using logic and thinking about the consequences of their choices, that's what this discussion is about. I know I am.

If the galaxy discovered what the Reapers were capable of regarding Grayson (who is able to be a sleeper agent and infiltrate ranks at will) during the actual invasion, then realistically the galaxy wouldn't stand a chance. It would be destroyed by interspecies conflict, paranoia, and the actual reapers themselves.

No one said TIM is a saint or to be trusted, but it's hard to deny what that the results of some of the things he's done has been valuable.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 05 octobre 2010 - 07:58 .

[Elite Midget]

Yet for some reason some people here, I wont name them, believe that the Collector Base wont have even tougher safeguards even though the Reaper IFF, which Harbringer never planned for Shepard to get, was good enough that it shut down the Normandy and let the Collectors walk right in.

I'm sure the moment Harbringer lost the IFF he made sure that some safeguards were still up and running in the off chance that Shepard does conquer the Collectors. After all, Shepard killed 1 of them at that point(As well as getting rid of that dead Reaper and later Baby as well) and the Collectors are organics thus they can't be held to the same standards as a Reaper. Thus failure is possible for them in the Reapers eyes.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 05 octobre 2010 - 08:02 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

If you're wary of distant Reaper defenses, imagine how bad the Reapers themselves will be.



I think the main split in viewpoint is that the Base Keepers feel they can destroy TIM easier than the Reapers... while the Base Destroyers feel they can destroy the Reapers easier than TIM.

[Elite Midget]

TIM has a track record of his technology not being good enough though when it comes to messing with Reaper Technology... Husks Research; failed, Swarms; failed(Needed Mordin to make a cure because Cerberus and its unlimited funding wasen't good enough), Reaper IFF; opened normandy up to the Collectors, Normandy SR2; failed(Supposed to be able to witstand Collector aka Reaper tech but that isn't the case. Aliens needed to make it better for it to stand a chance), Dead Reaper; failed, and EDI; failed(The Reapers had no problem dodgeing EDI and we saw what happened when they did) so... I have a feeling that TIM will fail when it comes to the Collector Base as well. What with that history and all...

Modifié par Elite Midget, 05 octobre 2010 - 08:28 .

[Phaedon]

[quote]smudboy wrote...

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

Do you really think that people who destroyed the base will get an instant 'CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE' screen ? Hell no. It took Cerberus years to build the Normandy SR2. They won't do anything too useful with the base. That's like the Allies giving the **** the nuclear bomb to stop an alien invasion. Both impractical and risky. 
[/quote]
This is not about what ME3 will do.  This is about the reasoning behind saving or not saving the base, and all reasoning I've seen toward destroying it is illogic and personal, subjective bias toward TIM.  Whereas saving it provides positive possibilities.[/quote]
Eh, respect our choice and we will respect yours. I think that more arguments have been posted (overall) about destroying the base than saving it. All of  them are unreasonable ? Okay. Destroying the base was never about providing positive possibilities, it's just for making sure that there are no negative possibilities. Which there will be, if you save the base. 

[quote][quote]
So ? You are saying that you were not objective when you said that you believed TIM. OK, I was subjective when I didn't believe him either, but how would it tip the Collectors off ?
[/quote]
That's a good question.  I could guess a few possibilities, but it's really not for me to say.[/quote]
OK, then, let's do a small recap: TIM lied to us on purpose. He explained that he didn't want to tip the Collectors off. Wether he was lying again or it was a flaw on the plot is unclear. I think that we can forget this argument now.

[quote][quote]
Any evidence to back this claim ?
[/quote]
The first audio log seems very clear about that.[/quote]
As it has already been suggested, it's out of context. He did instigate the missions. The audio log is just potential evidence that he didn't know a small detail from the whole operation. It doesn't suggest that he didn't order the abduction of children or that he didn't know about the inhumane experiments going on on Pragia. (or Overlord)

[quote][quote]
This is the one side:
1) Cerberus attacked our flotilla. They are very evil.
2) The purpose justifies the means. (Wait what ? Chasing some guys around the galaxy ?) We are not that evil. We just like abducting people and implanting them with all kinds of stuff.
Am I wrong ?
[/quote]
No, the narrative puts it differently.
1) "That's not how I'd have explained it exactly.  It was nothing personal."
2) We don't know what the hell happened.  Prazza gives one account, and Miranda dismisses it.  The narrative simply didn't give us enough information to form an objective understanding.[/quote]
I am a bit confused, is your first point what Miranda said ? If it was... then it supports another point that I'll make in this post.

[quote]Plus, attacking anything doesn't make anyone evil.[/quote]
Evil ? No, not necessarily, but it does make them morally flawed. Just because Cerberus does stuff for the advancement of humanity (by bypassing any ethical blocks), doesn't really make them look too good either. They have proved that they would go to great lengths to support their cause. The cause isn't what I'd like to support in any way either, since it's basically the 'Ascension of humanity, by the descent of other races.'. For TIM, aliens are expendable. For some Shepards, (not necessarily the ones who gave him the base), they are too, for some others, they are not. Imho, I'd rather not make humanity more powerful than other races. We have proved to be even worse than animals at  times.

[quote][quote]
a) So ? Cerberus and TIM are far worse traitors... You are blaming a dead guy for trying to find out who killed his men...
He is the leader of Cerberus. Do you have any proof that he didn't order the operation ? Or that it went rogue ?
[/quote]
Ok.  I'm done with this line of reasoning.  Not getting through to you on a simple definition with examples.[/quote]
If you want to stop defending an argument, then it's your choice. I still don't see how killing those marines and Kahoku doesn't make Cerberus or TIM bad.

[quote][quote]
1) I already have the Shadow Broker for that.
2) Not worth it. You know what I mean.
3),4) They could only progress the plot, irrelevant. 
[/quote]
No you misunderstand.
1) Information on the Reapers.
2) Technology from the Reapers.
3) Evidence on the Reapers
4) Closure about who died.
The SB can't do that, the technology is most definitely worht it, and how does evidence progress a plot, what plot?  What are you talking about?[/quote]
Those are legitimate arguments for defending the base, I won't question them. All 4 of them however, are in my opinion not worth the risk.

[quote][quote]
If you were going to use that argument, you should at least say that we are talking about what an IC Shepard would/should do. Whereas, you support that TIM is not a bad guy in general. And you don't want to take any extra material into account, as they hold all the evidence needed to support that. 
[/quote]
I don't know what an IC Shepard is.

I can only take into account ME and ME2.  In both of these cases, there is no evidence showing TIM is evil, bad, or morally gray.  There's a time where he lies to us, but that's to make the mission successful.  I may not agree with it, but that's merely his method of solving a problem, and it is well explained.  Thus the narrative is clear on this.[/quote]
IC means In Character, if you are not aware of what happens in the books (sorry for the massive spoilers), then I suggest that you don't support TIM that passionately. You are going to be very disappointed.

[quote]
The base won't take down any Reapers. Why would there even be an ME3, if that was possible ? In fact, even the Collectors needed 2 years to build the 50% of something that could only slow down the Reapers for a bit.
[/quote]
We don't know what the base will do.  That's kind of the point.  It doesn't matter what ME3 will do: this is about the reasoning behind keeping something, versus the subjective, purely emotional bullcr*p dislike of TIM's glowing blue eyes.[/quote]
k, all we have discussed so far is processed food eaten by a bull. How wonderful.

[quote][quote]
Okay then, please enlighten me on what the base could do. I am not going to risk the life of billions for a new MA cannon and a nice looking armour of no practical use. 
[/quote]
1) Information -- give us info on the Reapers.  Where they're coming from, what their plans are, communications between them, their goals, their strengths, their weaknesses, how to stop them, etc.
2) Technology -- weapons, defenses, energies, etc.
3) Evidence -- prove to others Reapers are real.
4) Closure -- give victims of the dead closure.[/quote]
As I have already said, they are legitimate points but:
2) Cerberus will also have access to the tech. Big No there.
3) If the evidence that you are refering to appears in the final scene of ME2, then even the Shepards that destroyed the base get it. If you are not, then simply, we will either have no evidence to convince the Council, or TIM won't let you tell anyone. He wants the tech for his own.
4) That's debatable, really. I'm pretty sure that the dead would rather that you destroyed the base, rather than use it.

[quote][quote]
Any evidence to point otherwise ? He didn't just say 'OK, you two guys will take over the operation. I won't have any involvement, like caring how we'll get lab rats or building the base'. 
[/quote]
If there's no evidence for, there's no evidence against, so it's really pointless to speculate.[/quote]
TIM is the lead of Cerberus and he likes to keep a very close eye to his operations. I'd say that the default would be that he knows about it, and any evidence needed would be to prove the opposite.

[quote][quote]
And you are going to give him that chance ? Okay... then I guess that the murder of billions is your fault. If you expect the base to be the factor that changes the ending of ME3, you are also wrong.
[/quote]
Murder of billions?  What are you talking about?  The Reapers?  Cause they're going to kill everyone.  Somewhere in the trllions.

However if you're asking about whether TIM will murder billions, I think your imagination is getting the better of you.

Either way I'd take an insane man who can potentially kill billions, then tje machine gods that kill everyone, forever, always. [/quote]
The tech and the information that you speak of, aren't worth putting billions of lives in danger. Let's not kid ourselves, Shepard will just defeat the Reapers either way. The ME universe will be featured in other games as well, so Shepard losing won't be canon.

[quote][quote]
Me and a lot of other people, apparently.

[/quote]
About?[/quote]
[quote]Who cares if he wants to also destroy all life after the Reapers are taken care of?[/quote]

[Aramintai]

I think that base keepers overestimate the importance of the named base. Somehow I doubt that saving or destroying the Collector base will be the one most important decision imported to ME3 that will allow you to defeat the Reapers. It will play its part, for sure, maybe even more so than the final decision made in ME1 (namely the fate of the Council), which as it appeared played quite a minor role in ME2. I think the devs are preparing a bunch of new revelations, unearthed artifacts or whatnot and allies in ME3 to keep things interesting. So putting all bets only on Cerberus and Collectors' base is silly, especially considering that it is not even certain whether Cerberus can manage to make some use of it in time, or that it won't become some type of Trojan horse when the Reapers come. And those who think that Cerberus is the lesser of two evils I would say that it will most likely step into the shoes of the big one once the Reapers are gone, but I suppose it's a consequence that many people are ready to live with. All the more trouble to deal with later, I say, why not avoid getting in to it in the first place? Blowing that base up was way more epic anyway .

[Dean_the_Young]

Elite Midget wrote...

TIM has a track record of his technology not being good enough though when it comes to messing with Reaper Technology... Husks Research; failed,

Not really. We're never told they failed at all, even what their goal was. People just assume it.

If the research goal is 'can we turn husks', and the answer found is 'no,' that isn't a failure by scientific measures.

Swarms; failed(Needed Mordin to make a cure because Cerberus and its unlimited funding wasen't good enough),

Since when has Cerberus needed to be omniscient and omnipotent? It's never claimed to be. TIM's dossiers are about finding the best of the best from across the galaxy, not a claim that Cerberus alone can stop everything.

Of course if you put impossible goals you're deem everything a failure. No one else made the seeker cure either. So, everyone but Mordin failed... except Mordin didn't bring Shepard back to the life, so he failed as well.

Reaper IFF; opened normandy up to the Collectors,

And yet, despite that, allowed you to complete the mission... which was the point of it. How is that not a sucess, when it completes exactly what it was supposed to do?

Normandy SR2; failed(Supposed to be able to witstand Collector aka Reaper tech but that isn't the case.

Except... no one ever claimed it would do that.

TIM gave you a new decked out ship. He didn't claim to give you the most pimped out ride on the galaxy.

Aliens needed to make it better for it to stand a chance),

Lack of omnipotence is hardly failure by any 'logical and reasonable' approach you like to claim.

Dead Reaper;

Got exactly what he wanted from it in the end, didn't he?

failed, and EDI; failed(The Reapers had no problem dodgeing EDI and we saw what happened when they did)

No, from what we saw EDI was always able to beat the Reapers cyberwarfare when she was allowed to access those systems.

Hence, you know, why the Normandy managed to escape.

 so... I have a feeling that TIM will fail when it comes to the Collector Base as well. What with that history and all...

For a very selective sense of history, sure.

I'm curious whether you think there are any non-fail individuals (besides, perhaps, Shepard) in the galaxy. Otherwise you're just going to have to suck up the fail regardless.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:09 .

[Thornquist]

Phaedon wrote...

The tech and the information that you speak of, aren't worth putting billions of lives in danger. Let's not kid ourselves, Shepard will just defeat the Reapers either way. The ME universe will be featured in other games as well, so Shepard losing won't be canon.

THERE is the flawed argument the some of the base-destroyers have, and I dislike so much. You actually detach yourself from the universe, and argues that "The reapers wont win anyway, so why risk giving TIM this weapon?".

How on earth is Shepherd going to know this? From his viewpoint they are fighting a battle that I can easily say they have under 1% chance of winning.

The Reapers are WAY more advanced than any of the organic races.
They have a fleet that almost seemed to have no limits (in ME2 ending cutscene).
They are almost singular, with every reaper 100%  commited to the goal. Unlike the governments of the organics, who can easily break out in war with each other, over the most trivial matter.
Also, the Reapers have MILLIONS of years of experience in this. They know more about fighting organics than anyone else - fighting in general, for that matter.

If I was living in Shepherds world, and in his shoes, I could easily go into a heavy depression, because the future is SO bleak. The chances against the Reapers are SO small. And my knowledge of what the Reapers will do, are so gruesome, that it could easily match any religion's version of hell.

And hell yes, every scrap of information and tech, is valuable.
The Illusive man is just that - a man. Even if he grabbed the entire galaxy with a iron hand, and became dictator of all (wich is VERY unlikely), he is still just a fart in the wind .- compared to the Reapers.

And even when you can point to all the bad sides of him, the most important thing about him IMO, is that he is very aware of the Reaper threat.

Modifié par Thornquist, 05 octobre 2010 - 09:16 .

[smudboy]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

Eh, respect our choice and we will respect yours. I think that more arguments have been posted (overall) about destroying the base than saving it. All of  them are unreasonable ? Okay. Destroying the base was never about providing positive possibilities, it's just for making sure that there are no negative possibilities. Which there will be, if you save the base. 
[/quote]
Positive Possibility: Enough Info/Tech/Evidence to possibly beat the Reapers.
Negative Possibility: The Reapers win.  Again.  Forever.

[quote]
OK, then, let's do a small recap: TIM lied to us on purpose. He explained that he didn't want to tip the Collectors off. Wether he was lying again or it was a flaw on the plot is unclear. I think that we can forget this argument now.
[/quote]
There's really no argument here.  TIM lied.

[quote]
As it has already been suggested, it's out of context. He did instigate the missions. The audio log is just potential evidence that he didn't know a small detail from the whole operation. It doesn't suggest that he didn't order the abduction of children or that he didn't know about the inhumane experiments going on on Pragia. (or Overlord)
[/quote]
This recording implies he didn't know what was going on.  A Security Officer and a Scientist are describing hiding something from TIM, we can make some educated guesses on what they're discussing.  We can also make some educated guesses on what they're not discussing.

It's not clear, but I have this really, really good feeling they're describing something bad.

[quote]
I am a bit confused, is your first point what Miranda said ? If it was... then it supports another point that I'll make in this post.
[/quote]
The point is it's unclear.  We have two opposing opinions.

[quote]
Evil ? No, not necessarily, but it does make them morally flawed.
[/quote]
Attacking does not make anyone morally flawed.

[quote]
Just because Cerberus does stuff for the advancement of humanity (by bypassing any ethical blocks), doesn't really make them look too good either. They have proved that they would go to great lengths to support their cause. The cause isn't what I'd like to support in any way either, since it's basically the 'Ascension of humanity, by the descent of other races.'.
[/quote]
Good for Cerberus.

[quote]
For TIM, aliens are expendable. For some Shepards, (not necessarily the ones who gave him the base), they are too, for some others, they are not. Imho, I'd rather not make humanity more powerful than other races. We have proved to be even worse than animals at  times.
[/quote]
How, for TIM, are aliens expendable?
By your opinion of TIM, humans are also expendable.
Regardless, there's no evidence of either.

[quote]
Those are legitimate arguments for defending the base, I won't question them. All 4 of them however, are in my opinion not worth the risk.
[/quote]
The alternative is the Reapers win.  Anything is worth that risk.

[quote]
IC means In Character, if you are not aware of what happens in the books (sorry for the massive spoilers), then I suggest that you don't support TIM that passionately. You are going to be very disappointed.
[/quote]
I still don't know what In Character means.

The books are irrelevant to the decision making process.

Oh noes.

[quote]
k, all we have discussed so far is processed food eaten by a bull. How wonderful.
[/quote]
No, we are arguing the validity of keeping the base, and the stupidity of destroying it.

[quote]
As I have already said, they are legitimate points but:
2) Cerberus will also have access to the tech. Big No there.
[/quote]
That's the point.

[quote]
3) If the evidence that you are refering to appears in the final scene of ME2, then even the Shepards that destroyed the base get it. If you are not, then simply, we will either have no evidence to convince the Council, or TIM won't let you tell anyone. He wants the tech for his own.
[/quote]
TIM has no problems having Shepard get help from other sources.  This is one of the very first things he says to Shepard "By all means."

[quote]
4) That's debatable, really. I'm pretty sure that the dead would rather that you destroyed the base, rather than use it.
[/quote]
I have the exact opposite opinion, and I know very many people who would rather hold onto their dead loved ones in memory and understanding of what their final fate was.

[quote]
TIM is the lead of Cerberus and he likes to keep a very close eye to his operations. I'd say that the default would be that he knows about it, and any evidence needed would be to prove the opposite.
[/quote]
Evidence the narrative contradicts your double-talk.  We're done arguing this point.

[quote]
The tech and the information that you speak of, aren't worth putting billions of lives in danger. Let's not kid ourselves, Shepard will just defeat the Reapers either way. The ME universe will be featured in other games as well, so Shepard losing won't be canon.
[/quote]
What happens in ME3 is irrelevant.  This is an argumenet behind the reasoning of saving the base to Stop the Reapers from destroying all life.  That is more important than IF the base could stop the Reapers and IF TIM decided to destroy the galaxy on his own...(in some bizarre retardo-Bizarro world...)

[RiouHotaru]

I thought this thread was not a "Why base-destroyers are idiots" but a "Discussion of opinion between base-keepers and base destroyers." Because no, stating that destroying the base was obviously the silly choice is equally silly. There are possible negative consequences to keeping the base around, as much as there negative consequences to destroying it. It's not a matter of extremes. Arguing that one choice is obviously superior to the other is inherently fallacious.

[Elite Midget]

Sorry, TIM and Cerberus have proved that they can't be trusted and ineffective. Reaper tech has proven to always bite organic life right back. Ergo, destroying the base means not being stuck on using Reaper tech, that will bite back, and lead to different innovations that the Reapers don't have such control or knowledge about. Such as the Thannix(However you spelled it) Cannon being so effective against the Collectors. It has evolved so much from the technology that inspired it and the Reapers aren't prepared for it.



The time between ME2->ME3 wont be long enough to have any technology gained from the base to have evolved to a point that the Thannix Cannon has. Thus it is worthless in itself because the Reapers still have that tech fresh on their minds and the fact that Harbringer could have a backdoor for causing more insane researchers or simply spy on what technology Cerberus ever develops from the technology left there.

[smudboy]

Elite Midget wrote...
Sorry, TIM and Cerberus have proved that they can't be trusted and ineffective.

1. Resurrected a person from death, rebuilt with organs and upgrades to boot.
2. Created a brand new spaceship.
3. Created an AI based on Reaper tech that has proven monumental to the happenings to utility of the protagonist and bane to the antagonists.

Reaper tech has proven to always bite organic life right back.

Always?
1. EDI
2. Thanix Cannon
3. IFF
4. The...entire...mass relay network...
5. Spaceship travel (engines)
6. Weapon technology
7. The Conduit (where the organics bite back!)

Ergo, destroying the base means not being stuck on using Reaper tech, that will bite back, and lead to different innovations that the Reapers don't have such control or knowledge about.

The entire technology of the universe is based on Reaper tech.

Such as the Thannix(However you spelled it) Cannon being so effective against the Collectors. It has evolved so much from the technology that inspired it and the Reapers aren't prepared for it.

So, wait, you're arguing that Thanix is good?  How about...every other pieces of technology?

The time between ME2->ME3 wont be long enough to have any technology gained from the base to have evolved to a point that the Thannix Cannon has.

Oh are you the plot writer?  Well that's good to know then.  What other secrets you've got there?

Thus it is worthless in itself because the Reapers still have that tech fresh on their minds and the fact that Harbringer could have a backdoor for causing more insane researchers or simply spy on what technology Cerberus ever develops from the technology left there.

The Reapers have tech fresh in their minds?  Oh?  Ohhhh. I get where you're going. See, since they're part-organic, they can forget!  Despite being you know, machine AI gods and stuff.  With like, harddrives and stuff.  Ah you!   You see like, what, two steps ahead of those Big Bad AI Machine Gods who've been destroying all life, forever.

[Dean_the_Young]

Elite Midget wrote...

Sorry, TIM and Cerberus have proved that they can't be trusted and ineffective. Reaper tech has proven to always bite organic life right back.

Except this is a falsehood...

Ergo, destroying the base means not being stuck on using Reaper tech, that will bite back, and lead to different innovations that the Reapers don't have such control or knowledge about.

...and this is a meaningless distinction because we already use what can be considered 'Reaper tech paths' tech.

Such as the Thannix(However you spelled it) Cannon being so effective against the Collectors. It has evolved so much from the technology that inspired it and the Reapers aren't prepared for it.

The Thannix isn't a new technology. It's a new system based exactly on technology of Sovereign.

The time between ME2->ME3 wont be long enough to have any technology gained from the base to have evolved to a point that the Thannix Cannon has. Thus it is worthless in itself because the Reapers still have that tech fresh on their minds and the fact that Harbringer could have a backdoor for causing more insane researchers or simply spy on what technology Cerberus ever develops from the technology left there.

There should be a head-desk emoticon.

The technology of the base is described in-game, with no reason to doubt the narrative validity, as at least two hundred years in advance of our own. (Comparisons to the Prothean data cache.)

To advance in technology two hundred years without any such short-cuts would require... two hundred years.

If you have two hundred years to naturally progress without the base's technology, in two hundred years you'll only be two hundred years forward. If you started from a position already two hundred years forward, in two hundred years you will be a net four hundred years forward.

Which is still two hundred more than you got naturally.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 octobre 2010 - 11:01 .

[Gokuthegrate]

In my first playthrought i destroyed the base.

If you were able to keep the base without handing it over to Cerberus than a lot more people would kept it.You could go through the information from the base without feeling that Cerberus would start melting down people or transplanting Reaper tech into subjects.

[Elite Midget]

You choose to believe that TIM can't do wrong and I'll follow the facts that TIM is a manipulative man who only acts if it benefits him. If you believe that somehow the Collector Base, 100% Reaper tech that Harbringer has every bit of infoirmation about and could use it for spying or ruining any research there, will work with no reprecussions than more power to you.



I on the other hand will give the Reapers credit where credit is due. They've controlled evolution long enough. Taking the Base is just continueing the same tradition that has occured time and time again.



If anything, taking the Collector Base is the 'easy way out' that opens no room for innovation outside Reaper Tech or the chance that the Collector Base will end up being a Trojan Horse.



Last time I checked every organic life that put all their eggs in the basket when conserning Reaper tech always ended up destroyed or enslaved. Thus the only logical path is to break the cycle and stop organic life relying so heavily on Reaper technology and instead forgeing their own destiny.



As for the tech we have... Better to work with what has evolved far beyond what Reapers have grown attached to. Which is why every time they wipe out organic life they take every bit of technology they can and upgrade where needed.



The Reapers had fail safes in place incase they died. Hence the Dead Reaper that Shepard encounters. However, the Reapers never planned for one of their own to be blown to pieces, rendering their system fail safes useless since they aren't functioning anymore, and the parts salvaged.



So let's recap.



Soverign = Blown to pieces, no systems are left online. At least the dead Reaper still had the ability to indocturnate because some systems were still online.



The Thanix cannon was made by the parts of Soverign.



Let's compare the Collector Base...



Collector Base = All systems still online, Harbringer has shown that he can appear in the systems without Collector aid. Hell, he entered the system so that he could enter the Collectors. High chance of being a trojan horse and any technology immediatly gained from here wouldn't be different enough to be effective against the Reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

You choose to believe that TIM can't do wrong and I'll follow the facts that TIM is a manipulative man who only acts if it benefits him. If you believe that somehow the Collector Base, 100% Reaper tech that Harbringer has every bit of infoirmation about and could use it for spying or ruining any research there, will work with no reprecussions than more power to you.[/quote]Two problems with this.

One, the first claim is patently false. Show where I've ever thought that TIM can do no wrong. Either prove it or stop with the false strawman.

Second, the Collectors have been leading galactic tech by decades for thousands of years. They already know our current tech as well, and more than enough to lead it by a generation with the Collectors. There is no 'the Reapers don't know our current technology': the Collectors are proof they know the current galactic standard by the back of their hands, claws, whatever, just as well as they know ours.
[quote]
I on the other hand will give the Reapers credit where credit is due. They've controlled evolution long enough. Taking the Base is just continueing the same tradition that has occured time and time again.[/quote]If you believe that every cycle includes killing the Vanguard, manipulating the Keepers (who, for some reason, were only going to be replaced this cycle by a subserviant synthetic substitute), finding, salvaging, and then destroying a derilect reaper from millions of years ago, fighting through the Omega 4 relay, and then capturing the base.

Of course, you'd be hard pressed to find support in-game for this theory, and many more reasons why it isn't likely in the least.
[quote]
If anything, taking the Collector Base is the 'easy way out' that opens no room for innovation outside Reaper Tech or the chance that the Collector Base will end up being a Trojan Horse. [/quote]False delimma, considering that humanity, currently the most 'innovative' species on the Citadel, lost no such innovation despite a similar tech uplift from the Prothean ruins on Mars in less than half a lifetime already.

[quote]
Last time I checked every organic life that put all their eggs in the basket when conserning Reaper tech always ended up destroyed or enslaved. Thus the only logical path is to break the cycle and stop organic life relying so heavily on Reaper technology and instead forgeing their own destiny.[/quote]All species also remained at the current galactic standard, and didn't have access to pure Reaper technology not intended to be found.

The level of Reaper technology they were at was one intended for them as user-only, on the Citadel (maintained/operated by the keepers) and the Mass Relays. Not a level of understanding, the cusp of which the Protheans were barely reaching. The Reaper base, however, is that opportunity of understanding, rather than copying, and was not intended to be stumbled over.

pquote]
As for the tech we have... Better to work with what has evolved far beyond what Reapers have grown attached to. Which is why every time they wipe out organic life they take every bit of technology they can and upgrade where needed.[/quote]Nothing suggests they take the tech as upgrade. Simply as a cleaning service to leave the next galaxy with only an acceptable amoung of understanding.

And the first point is misleading because the Collectors demonstrate that the Reapers already know our technology, and where it will go from here. They already have the technology between 'now' and 'then'.
[quote]
The Reapers had fail safes in place incase they died. Hence the Dead Reaper that Shepard encounters. However, the Reapers never planned for one of their own to be blown to pieces, rendering their system fail safes useless since they aren't functioning anymore, and the parts salvaged.

So let's recap.

Soverign = Blown to pieces, no systems are left online. At least the dead Reaper still had the ability to indocturnate because some systems were still online.

The Thanix cannon was made by the parts of Soverign.

Let's compare the Collector Base...

Collector Base = All systems still online, Harbringer has shown that he can appear in the systems without Collector aid. Hell, he entered the system so that he could enter the Collectors. High chance of being a trojan horse and any technology immediatly gained from here wouldn't be different enough to be effective against the Reapers.[/quote]No, Harbringer has not. On the contrary, the fact that Harbringer needs to posses the Collector General to type in a computer, and needs Collectors to type in the various computers we see on-ship shows that he needs them to operate systems.

If you think technology regularly described as a decade or more in advance of the galactic standard is meaningless, you have a horrible conception of technological development.

You can't have it both ways, and claim that Sovereign's defeat was unexpected and unplanned for and safe to use, despite being pure Reaper, while the Collectors, who are obviously an impromptu back-up force who were only put into action after Sovereign's supposedly unpredictable defeat are an always-intended trap in the same way as the Mass Relays and Citadel. Either both were unexpected, unintended, and unwanted losses for the Reapers, which by your standard with Sovereign means the technology is fair game, or neither are.

[Lunatic LK47]

Thornquist wrote...

How on earth is Shepherd going to know this? From his viewpoint they are fighting a battle that I can easily say they have under 1% chance of winning.

The Reapers are WAY more advanced than any of the organic races.
They have a fleet that almost seemed to have no limits (in ME2 ending cutscene).
They are almost singular, with every reaper 100%  commited to the goal. Unlike the governments of the organics, who can easily break out in war with each other, over the most trivial matter.
Also, the Reapers have MILLIONS of years of experience in this. They know more about fighting organics than anyone else - fighting in general, for that matter.

If I was living in Shepherds world, and in his shoes, I could easily go into a heavy depression, because the future is SO bleak. The chances against the Reapers are SO small. And my knowledge of what the Reapers will do, are so gruesome, that it could easily match any religion's version of hell.

And hell yes, every scrap of information and tech, is valuable.
The Illusive man is just that - a man. Even if he grabbed the entire galaxy with a iron hand, and became dictator of all (wich is VERY unlikely), he is still just a fart in the wind .- compared to the Reapers.

And even when you can point to all the bad sides of him, the most important thing about him IMO, is that he is very aware of the Reaper threat.

On the other hand, pretty much every attempt at studying Reaper tech has always resulted in disaster 8 out of 10 times. Everyone involved got indoctrinated, and the only two successful results re EDI and the Thanix Cannon, which isn't saying much. The Reapers are not morons either if we bothered keeping the base. They would just spring a trap or press a "self-destruct button" the second a research team enters the Collector base just to screw around with us, or they would just hack whatever we managed to reverse-engineer.

[Inverness Moon]

I'm quite done arguing with Elite Midget, he/she is unable to form a coherent argument and is unable to understand anyone else's argument.



The continued unfounded accusations that some people (including me) think TIM can do no wrong is evidence of this.

[smudboy]

I was about to reply but found Dead did the work for me. And it seems most people we argue with anyway are incapable of learning, or are so biased of TIM that they are also biased of those who save the base.

[mosor]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...


On the other hand, pretty much every attempt at studying Reaper tech has always resulted in disaster 8 out of 10 times. Everyone involved got indoctrinated, and the only two successful results re EDI and the Thanix Cannon, which isn't saying much. The Reapers are not morons either if we bothered keeping the base. They would just spring a trap or press a "self-destruct button" the second a research team enters the Collector base just to screw around with us, or they would just hack whatever we managed to reverse-engineer.

Acceptable risk, and if teams of Cerberus red shirts bite the bullet, then at least they died as heros doing something to stop the reapers rather than be killed by those same reapers while at home watching Vaenia.

Modifié par mosor, 06 octobre 2010 - 01:08 .

[DPSSOC]

I thought occurred to me recently (Warning Minor Lair of the Shadow Broker Spoilers Ahead). Do those who destroy the base on the grounds it could be a Reaper trap also want to destroy the Shadow Broker vessel? It's essentially the same thing, despite all the effort it took to get to the main chamber Liara points out how comically insufficient the security is. So since it seems like the means to take over as Shadow Broker have been laid out on a silver platter it must obviously be a trap set up by the previous Shadow Broker.