2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm not biased against folks who save the base. I am, however, pissed that my decision to destroy the base is laughed at for being silly, while attempts to counter keep-the-base arguments are just brushed off.

Most arguments supplied are rather silly. Others don't even stand up to challenges.

Take, for example, one popular argument in the original thread: that TIM was going to build an Asari/Turian/Salarian reaper. That was a pretty silly argument on a lot of grounds, not least including how the Reapers disqualified those races for producing a Reaper. The rest, like the lack of manpower, means, or secure location to do so, just piled on.

Both decisions have equally valid merits as to why you would pick one or the other. Neither choice is strictly superior to the other choice.

And this, I'm afraid, is a fallacy.

Not all choices are equal. Not all delimmas must be balanced. Not all outcomes have to end up in the same place. That's not true in real life, and it isn't true in Mass Effect either.

[mosor]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The base is a hugely valuable resource, but to use an analogy from Mordin himself, giving it to TIM is like giving nuclear weapons to Cave men.

Humanity did fine when they found the Prothean cache and they'll do fine this time.

That is different. There were governents to slow the process of adaption down. Beuracracy that gave the scientists time to formulate a way forward.  In the Codex it said that there was a period of time where the governments of the earth argued over who had rights to the site.  It isn't the same, especially since it was prothean tech and not reaper tech. There was no tech that created a quantum entanglement-based link to machine species bent on the destruction of the galaxy's civilizations. We were ignorant of the risks, TIM wasn't.

It was a prothean data cache, but it was reaper  tech. As for studying any alien tech. There's always a risk. Hell there is always a risk studying things we understand, like virus' and radiation. However, all that understanding came at the expensive of blood and lives shed by our forefathers. We know some food is poisionous to us. Why? Because one of our ancestors probably ate it and died. We know prolonged radiation exposureleads to sickness, even death. Why? Because plenty of scientists and guinea pig soldiers died from that.

So it will happen with alien tech, concepts, and space. People will probably die studying them and exploring new frontiers. Do we stop because of that risk? Of course not. If that was human nature, we'd still be in the stone ages. TIM has more of a sense of urgency and thus takes greater risks. Originally to play catch up with the council races, even score an edge to protect humanity, and now even a greater sense of urgency to stop the reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shandepared wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Look, I don't like the (kid? teen? Idealistic adult?)'s logic, but this is entirely the wrong attitude to take, let alone express. It doesn't matter how rational, reasonable, or logical you think you are, if you resort to calling someone stupid it ruins everything else.

I say it is better to be upfront about your feelings for people.

Stupid arguments come from stupid people. There's no harm in calling them on it.

Well, at least until someone tattles to Pacifien.

You are never going to persuade anyone anyway, especially someone who advocates such flawed arguments.

Given that I have persuaded more than a few people? People who, openly or privately, have thanked me for a civil conversation and actually consented to a view they didn't start with?

Strongly, strongly disagree.

Stupid arguments can come from smart people with bad facts, but the worst way to persuade them of such is to call them stupid. When you aim for an emotional response with such a loaded charge, you change a debate from a logical argument to an emotional fight, and you no longer have any right to demand logic from others.

This board is full of people, not turing programs. To bring anyone about to a way of thinking, you have to treat them like people. Civility isn't simply a nicety: it's a critical means to an end.

[Dean_the_Young]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Somebody1003 wrote...

Well he did have Kai Leng there specifically to kill Grayson when the time came. He never expected the turians to show up like that.

Yes, because that is a great contingency plan. Use an ex-N7 operative to kill a completely possessed Reaper avatar.

And yet, even throwing a Turian intervention in there, it worked. Not as soon or as idealy, but it did.

External means of killing is inefficient. Anderson would have made sure to implant him with a device to destroy his brain that could be activated from afar. In the event of an escape, which is likely given the enemy. To honestly expect that one man can hope to defeat a reaper avatar in close combat and stake an entire operation and the lives of every man woman and child on it is reckless and impulsive.

I'd bet you a copy of ME3 that Anderson wouldn't have. And I bet I could give you a reason even you would accept as to why: Anderson wouldn't have done such a study in the first place.

Kai didn't have to defeat the avatar in close combat, mono e mono, with the entire galaxy on the line. What's with this 'oh, he must strangle him with his bare hands' shindig? Guns, mechs, backup. The same things that actually brought Grayson down.

Proper contingency plans have redundacy. If plan A fails, there are several more plans to run through. TIM didn't take any real precautions, he just charged ahead and as a result an external event ruined their only plan.

Who's to say there weren't more redundancy plans that weren't blown apart by Anderson and the Turians?

Again, reckless and impulsive. It would be like trusting a child with a gun.

Better a child with a gun than an orphanage without when invaded by molesters/sex killers.

[Pacifien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Both decisions have equally valid merits as to why you would pick one or the other. Neither choice is strictly superior to the other choice.

And this, I'm afraid, is a fallacy.

Well, I would have said saving the Council was a fallacy, but all I get are grumpy citizens of the Citadel while those who saved the Council get milk and cookies as they plot other ways to destroy the Turian Councilor. So claiming that one decision is superior to the other one at this point is a fallacy. Try again when ME3 is released.

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...
Stupid arguments come from stupid people. There's no harm in calling them on it.

Well, at least until someone tattles to Pacifien.

Dude, Pacifien reads these forums as she's read these forums for over nine months now. People don't need to always tattle to Pacifien for her to see when you are insulting a person versus debating the topic at hand. You can think an argument is stupid. You are not allowed to call the person who made the argument stupid. At some point, you're either going to have to read the Site Rules and accept this fact of the forums or you'll have to go to another venue were you can insult everyone to your heart's delight.

Modifié par Pacifien, 06 octobre 2010 - 03:35 .

[Arijharn]

I don't think being overly antagonistic does any credit to your own arguments if what you are trying to display is logic, because being overly antagonistic isn't a logical response.



Everyone gets frustrated of course, I get frustrated with people who say that it's obvious that TIM wants to make a reaper when all I saw was an alarmist hyperbolic message, not actual proof that TIM wants to make a Reaper.

[scotchtape622]

Arijharn wrote...

I don't think being overly antagonistic does any credit to your own arguments if what you are trying to display is logic, because being overly antagonistic isn't a logical response.

Everyone gets frustrated of course, I get frustrated with people who say that it's obvious that TIM wants to make a reaper when all I saw was an alarmist hyperbolic message, not actual proof that TIM wants to make a Reaper.

What do you mean by "hyperbolic?" Shepard doesn't know he is in a video game.

[upsettingshorts]

I wouldn't be at all shocked if the opening for Mass Effect 3 - given that the Reapers still seem some way off from actually entering the rim of the galaxy - is Shepard standing trial infront of the Council.

Kept the base:
Turian Councilor: "You kept this obscene installation and then, not content with the crime of allowing it to exist, handed possession of it over to one of the most reprehensible criminals in the known galaxy. The powers of that station will inevitably be turned on whoever survives the coming apocalypse.  You had best explain yourself, though I doubt anything you can say would do anything to remove an ounce of contempt I have for you and your decision."

Destroyed the base:
Turian Councilor: "How dare you take such an important discovery and unilaterally elect to destroy it? Is your lust for glory and battle sated only by explosions that ripple through the galaxy like a plague on good sense itself? Given the greatest threat existence itself has ever known might have been repelled by countermeasures developed from that technology I hope you are content with the knowledge you have doomed us all, because no historians will survive to record the contempt I have for you."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 06 octobre 2010 - 03:45 .

[GuardianAngel470]

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The base is a hugely valuable resource, but to use an analogy from Mordin himself, giving it to TIM is like giving nuclear weapons to Cave men.

Humanity did fine when they found the Prothean cache and they'll do fine this time.

That is different. There were governents to slow the process of adaption down. Beuracracy that gave the scientists time to formulate a way forward.  In the Codex it said that there was a period of time where the governments of the earth argued over who had rights to the site.  It isn't the same, especially since it was prothean tech and not reaper tech. There was no tech that created a quantum entanglement-based link to machine species bent on the destruction of the galaxy's civilizations. We were ignorant of the risks, TIM wasn't.

It was a prothean data cache, but it was reaper  tech. As for studying any alien tech. There's always a risk. Hell there is always a risk studying things we understand, like virus' and radiation. However, all that understanding came at the expensive of blood and lives shed by our forefathers. We know some food is poisionous to us. Why? Because one of our ancestors probably ate it and died. We know prolonged radiation exposureleads to sickness, even death. Why? Because plenty of scientists and guinea pig soldiers died from that.

So it will happen with alien tech, concepts, and space. People will probably die studying them and exploring new frontiers. Do we stop because of that risk? Of course not. If that was human nature, we'd still be in the stone ages. TIM has more of a sense of urgency and thus takes greater risks. Originally to play catch up with the council races, even score an edge to protect humanity, and now even a greater sense of urgency to stop the reapers.

I understand that and actually said as much. But you should always do what is in your power to mitigate the risks. Besides, what I want to know is if all TIM was trying to do was understand indoctrination, why not start small? Rats are good analogs for all of our genetic experiments, why not start there and study how the tech affects organics, gain the baseline comparisons that they even state that they lack, and then move to more advanced lifeforms.

Why not use a willing test subject? A Cerberus employee from his space station would have been better than Grayson. TIM even says that they would give their lives to him without a second thought, that they are all zealots. Starting with a willing subject would have nullified the escape angle, at least until the reapers gained full control.  

As a means to mitigate risks, the cell could have been outfitted with plasma jets in the event of a problem. Instead of relying solely on one person to provide security, they could have had backup systems, redundancy.

I don't begrudge the experiment so much as the careless way it was conducted. There were better ways, but TIM ignored them out of reckless impulse.

To firmly and clearly state my position on the base, I destroy it because Cerberus can't be trusted to use it wisely. Samara states after destroying the base that TIM lacks the wisdom to utilize it. She doesn't say that it shouldn't be utilized, but that TIM can't be trusted with it.

I don't think conducting experiments is wrong, I don't think that because any experiments conducted would by their very nature be unethical that they shouldn't be conducted.  In order to defend against the Reapers, we need to understand. We need to counter their greatest weapon indoctrination. We need to level the playing field.

However, I knew before reading the book that Cerberus, based on their past experiments (thorian Creepers, Rachni, husks, etc), that they wouldn't take the necessary precautions. I knew that as much as we need info on how the reapers operate, too many things could go wrong because of careless experimenting that could ultimately cause more harm than good.  

If I had the chance to create immortality at the risk of killing every living creature on the planet, I wouldn't do it until I had made that possibility a non-issue. I would mitigate the risks, create means to reverse my experiments, and make sure that if something did go catastrophically wrong, the chances of killing everything was as close to zero as I could possibly make it.

To blindly experiment with no knowledge from less risky experiments to base findings on, no real ways to reverse a mistake, no contingencies for outside influence, and no actual mitigation of risks is just stupid, and I knew that Cerberus did that all the time. ME1 told me that.

I would give the base to the Salarians or to Anderson, but giving it to Cerberus, based on everything I know about how they operate when it comes to experiments, is too risky. You just don't conduct an experiment when the cost of failure is this high.  You have to minimize the risks and start small.

[mosor]

Pacifien wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Both decisions have equally valid merits as to why you would pick one or the other. Neither choice is strictly superior to the other choice.

And this, I'm afraid, is a fallacy.

Well, I would have said saving the Council was a fallacy, but all I get are grumpy citizens of the Citadel while those who saved the Council get milk and cookies as they plot other ways to destroy the Turian Councilor. So claiming that one decision is superior to the other one at this point is a fallacy. Try again when ME3 is released.

Focusing on Sovereign was the rational, logical decision. The consequences of that decision have no merit to the superior logic of that choice. The fact that saving the council created a gameworld you consider superior is immaterial. 

Similarly, destroying the base will lead to a world that paragons are happier with. As I said in a page earlier, these writers like to reward paragon players regardless of how naive the choice is. Doesn't mean that choice is the more logical, or rational one of the two presented in this thread.

Modifié par mosor, 06 octobre 2010 - 03:52 .

[Arijharn]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I don't think being overly antagonistic does any credit to your own arguments if what you are trying to display is logic, because being overly antagonistic isn't a logical response.

Everyone gets frustrated of course, I get frustrated with people who say that it's obvious that TIM wants to make a reaper when all I saw was an alarmist hyperbolic message, not actual proof that TIM wants to make a Reaper.

What do you mean by "hyperbolic?" Shepard doesn't know he is in a video game.

I just interpreted when Shephard goes: "You're completely ruthless..." and TIM retorts it didn't sound to me as if he was tacitly acknowledging that he was planning to make a Reaper, especially because at that time you know the vast amounts of resources needed to make one. But we've already debated this haven't we?

[scotchtape622]

Arijharn wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I don't think being overly antagonistic does any credit to your own arguments if what you are trying to display is logic, because being overly antagonistic isn't a logical response.

Everyone gets frustrated of course, I get frustrated with people who say that it's obvious that TIM wants to make a reaper when all I saw was an alarmist hyperbolic message, not actual proof that TIM wants to make a Reaper.

What do you mean by "hyperbolic?" Shepard doesn't know he is in a video game.

I just interpreted when Shephard goes: "You're completely ruthless..." and TIM retorts it didn't sound to me as if he was tacitly acknowledging that he was planning to make a Reaper, especially because at that time you know the vast amounts of resources needed to make one. But we've already debated this haven't we?

I left right after  I asked it before.

However, in previous threads I've posted tons of evidence on how it is likely to be an admission of his plans, and nobody was able to couter it other than "it seems to me that..."

[GuardianAngel470]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Somebody1003 wrote...

Well he did have Kai Leng there specifically to kill Grayson when the time came. He never expected the turians to show up like that.

Yes, because that is a great contingency plan. Use an ex-N7 operative to kill a completely possessed Reaper avatar.

And yet, even throwing a Turian intervention in there, it worked. Not as soon or as idealy, but it did.

External means of killing is inefficient. Anderson would have made sure to implant him with a device to destroy his brain that could be activated from afar. In the event of an escape, which is likely given the enemy. To honestly expect that one man can hope to defeat a reaper avatar in close combat and stake an entire operation and the lives of every man woman and child on it is reckless and impulsive.

I'd bet you a copy of ME3 that Anderson wouldn't have. And I bet I could give you a reason even you would accept as to why: Anderson wouldn't have done such a study in the first place.

Kai didn't have to defeat the avatar in close combat, mono e mono, with the entire galaxy on the line. What's with this 'oh, he must strangle him with his bare hands' shindig? Guns, mechs, backup. The same things that actually brought Grayson down.

Proper contingency plans have redundacy. If plan A fails, there are several more plans to run through. TIM didn't take any real precautions, he just charged ahead and as a result an external event ruined their only plan.

Who's to say there weren't more redundancy plans that weren't blown apart by Anderson and the Turians?

Again, reckless and impulsive. It would be like trusting a child with a gun.

Better a child with a gun than an orphanage without when invaded by molesters/sex killers.

Actually, it didn't. Grayson was responsible for killing himself. He tipped Kahlee off, who tipped Anderson off, who eventually killed Grayson.  Kai Lee could have been left at Omega when Anderson knocked him out. 

Close combat as in a small room. You know, Grayson's Cell? the chances of TIM and the rest knowing just when Grayson was too powerful is next to nothing. So, that means that Kai Lee would have to step inside the cell to shoot Grayson, who if he were powerful enough, would take the bullet, move out of the way of a kill shot, and kill Kai Lee with either biotics or a very devastating punch/kick.

That is what I mean when I say close combat, and yes, it would have been mono e mono. TIM was confident in Kai's abilities and he was the one who ordered Kai to kill Grayson. Since Kai would feel that a security guard would get in his way in the event of retaliation, he would have gone alone.

Anderson asserts this idea when the station is being attacked by Aria's people. He says that because the turians have trained to fight with each other effectively, Anderson and Kahlee would just get in the way.  This applies to all military forces, especially spec ops like Kai. 

[Elite Midget]

[Edit: Personal arguments with another poster do not belong in the forums. Take it to PM or, if you feel you're being harrassed or trolled, bring it to the attention of a moderator. -- Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:04 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

But you should always do what is in your power to mitigate the risks.

I agree, which is why you should save the Collector base.

Did you read my whole post? It doesn't seem like you did. You counter me in such a way that you seem to be trying to use my own logic against me, but in my post I already agreed with you. I would keep the base if I could mitigate the risk and give it to anderson or the salarians.

[Arijharn]

It can't be 'evidence' if people aren't convinced, in any case, I'm pretty sure Dean would have answered your points, but here's my stab scotch;

We don't know for sure of course, but it does 'seem to me that' it would be exceptionally unlikely on so many different levels,

a) It doesn't actually help humanity by mass sacrificing people especially since he went out of his way to resurrect you in the first place to prevent it from happening.

It would be impossible to control, how could he 'ensure it's loyalty'? Free cheeseburgers?

c) You don't actually need to make a Reaper in order to understand how it works, in fact, it's weapons and shielding are more important to understand than an actual Reaper itself save for how Indoctrination works... and even then you don't need to construct one.

d) The resources needed to make one are colossal, even if TIM had the mind too, how would he abduct millions plus humans with an organisation numbering below 200? Free cheeseburgers?

e) If humanity advanced to Reaper-shell, it probably wouldn't be called 'humanity' any more, so in effect TIM would have failed his stated goals.

f) TIM couldn't ensure that his own people would necessarily be on board with the plan anyway. It's probably one thing for people to get desperate and experiment on children, but mass liquification is on another level altogether.



I make these comments as someone who isn't absolutely pro-Cerberus either, just someone who is pro-CB saving.

[mosor]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I don't think being overly antagonistic does any credit to your own arguments if what you are trying to display is logic, because being overly antagonistic isn't a logical response.

Everyone gets frustrated of course, I get frustrated with people who say that it's obvious that TIM wants to make a reaper when all I saw was an alarmist hyperbolic message, not actual proof that TIM wants to make a Reaper.

What do you mean by "hyperbolic?" Shepard doesn't know he is in a video game.

I just interpreted when Shephard goes: "You're completely ruthless..." and TIM retorts it didn't sound to me as if he was tacitly acknowledging that he was planning to make a Reaper, especially because at that time you know the vast amounts of resources needed to make one. But we've already debated this haven't we?

I left right after  I asked it before.

However, in previous threads I've posted tons of evidence on how it is likely to be an admission of his plans, and nobody was able to couter it other than "it seems to me that..."

No it's obvious that Shepard was making a crack at TIM to highlight just how ruthless he is.  TIM, seeing it as the stupid wise crack that it is and in no mood for comedy,  didn't bother to acknowlegde it, and just state that he is unapologetic for his ruthlessness.

When people say "It seems to me that...." what they really mean that "It's quite obvious", but I'm going to be nice about it.

[GuardianAngel470]

[Edit: Let's not get into a discussion about my moderating the thread. Stay on-topic. Stay civil. Failure to do so will get the thread locked just like the last one was. -- Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:09 .

[Arijharn]

I think the point that you couldn't get to choose who to send the CB too was actually a pretty ingenious decision by BioWare personally, I don't know what makes the Salarians or even Anderson automatically more trustful than anyone else though.

[scotchtape622]

Shandepared wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

However, in previous threads I've posted tons of evidence on how it is likely to be an admission of his plans, and nobody was able to couter it other than "it seems to me that..."

Post this evidence again and maybe you'll win a convert.

Of-course I have suspicions that you have no evidence because an analysis of TIM's character is not going to be objective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride-and-ego_down
http://www.orange-pa...ml#lie_omission