2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Elite Midget]

I'm sure Pacifien has already taken care of that and we shouldn't dwell on it.

Collector Base...
Maybe a trap or maybe a big pay off.
Do you hate Cerberus or do you trust them not to mess this up?
Will the Reaper Tech rebel again or will it not?
Are there any Safeguards left behind or are there none?
Is Cerberus a threat to galatic peace or are they it's salvation?
Will Cerberus prove ineffective with the Collector Base or will they succeed this time around?
Is Cerberus unwilling to bring in Aliens to mess with Collector Tech or are they willing to share?
Is Harbringer smarter than what Cerberus has or is Harbringer all talk?

Modifié par Elite Midget, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:13 .

[scotchtape622]

"a) It doesn't actually help humanity by mass sacrificing people especially since he went out of his way to resurrect you in the first place to prevent it from happening.

It would be impossible to control, how could he 'ensure it's loyalty'? Free cheeseburgers?

c) You don't actually need to make a Reaper in order to understand how it works, in fact, it's weapons and shielding are more important to understand than an actual Reaper itself save for how Indoctrination works... and even then you don't need to construct one.

d) The resources needed to make one are colossal, even if TIM had the mind too, how would he abduct millions plus humans with an organisation numbering below 200? Free cheeseburgers?

e) If humanity advanced to Reaper-shell, it probably wouldn't be called 'humanity' any more, so in effect TIM would have failed his stated goals.

f) TIM couldn't ensure that his own people would necessarily be on board with the plan anyway. It's probably one thing for people to get desperate and experiment on children, but mass liquification is on another level altogether."

The issue here is that you are posting logical reasons why he shouldn't build a Reaper. I don't trust TIM to be logical.

"I don't care what wikipedia says. Post your own analysis of TIM and use it to convince me that he is going to build a Reaper."

What do you mean? It was those factors that brought me to believe that he was going to try/consider building a Reaper.

Modifié par scotchtape622, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:14 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Arijharn wrote...

I think the point that you couldn't get to choose who to send the CB too was actually a pretty ingenious decision by BioWare personally, I don't know what makes the Salarians or even Anderson automatically more trustful than anyone else though.

The salarians created the genophage as a threat against the krogan but the turians used it to end the war. They know what it means to conduct risky experiments as well as mitigating the risks.

Anderson is a soldier. Has been his whole life. Good soldiers know how to maximize the results while minimizing the risks. With him in charge of overseeing the experiments, at least I can trust there will be some planning.

Turians obviously wouldn't work because they don't trust Shepard and the don't trust humanity. The asari wouldn't have the guts to do it and with their superiority complex they'd never see the necessity.  Plus they don't believe in the Reapers.

Salarians are logical for the most part. If we presented them with the evidence from the base it may have been possible to convince them to conduct the experiments. They certainly have the guts given Mordin's history.  But they would do it right.

[mosor]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


The salarians created the genophage as a threat against the krogan but the turians used it to end the war. They know what it means to conduct risky experiments as well as mitigating the risks.

Salarians are known for solving problems by creating bigger ones! I'll take Cerberus' track record, over the shady Salarians I met in game

[Elite Midget]

Maybe TIM can make a mini Reaper that would be far smaller and require less human sacrifices?

A smaller test subject is still bad but it would fall in with TIM wanting to see Reaper tech first hand. He did want that IFF very badly as well as the Collector Base...

To above poster.

At least the Salarians have a higher success rate than Cerberus.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:17 .

[Elite Midget]

Perhaps... Very good awnsers though. I'm glad there are some of the other side that can express their views logically and not result to underhanded methods.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:19 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

 You counter me in such a way that you seem to be trying to use my own logic against me...

You are the one doing that, not me. The Reapers are far more dangerous than TIM is. You need to mitigate the risks versus them and to do that you need to keep the base.

I agree. But while TIM isn't that much of a threat, he is willing to inadvertantly give the real threat, the Reapers, a foot hold.  I don't think TIM is a threat, I think his reckless nature would bring the Real threat too close.

You have to remember, he is experimenting with reaper tech. any failure due to the issues I described would give the Reapers exactly what they needed to try again.

Our arguments aren't mutually exclusive. We are saying the same thing, but you are using it to prove why the base should be given to Cerberus and I am using it to prove why you shouldn't.

[Arijharn]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

However, in previous threads I've posted tons of evidence on how it is likely to be an admission of his plans, and nobody was able to couter it other than "it seems to me that..."

Post this evidence again and maybe you'll win a convert.

Of-course I have suspicions that you have no evidence because an analysis of TIM's character is not going to be objective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride-and-ego_down
http://www.orange-pa...ml#lie_omission

None of that prove beyond reasonable doubt however that he was definitely thinking about making a Human Reaper. Could it be that he just didn't think the statement was serious?

[scotchtape622]

I don't need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. This isn't a court. I'm Commander Shepard, and I'm making a fast judgment call.

[GuardianAngel470]

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


The salarians created the genophage as a threat against the krogan but the turians used it to end the war. They know what it means to conduct risky experiments as well as mitigating the risks.

Salarians are known for solving problems by creating bigger ones! I'll take Cerberus' track record, over the shady Salarians I met in game

That is true. However, if the salarians hadn't created the genophage, the reapers would have already come for the krogan and all sentient life would be dead. So did they create a bigger problem, or help solve the biggest of all?

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


I agree. But while TIM isn't that much of a threat, he is willing to inadvertantly give the real threat, the Reapers, a foot hold.

How?

Creating an Avatar like Grayson.  Grayson proved to be almost another Saren. If he hadn't tipped off Kahlee when he was captured, no one would have known about him. He could have built up his strength and escaped the station and possibly brought the reapers back.

A coincidence saved the galaxy from Cerberus this time, and not their planning skills.

[mosor]

Elite Midget wrote...

At least the Salarians have a higher success rate than Cerberus.

Says who? Mass death of entire research teams does not equal failure to a man like TIM if useful data or technology was acquired.  In the vast majority of those "failures" useful data or technology was acquired.  Regardless, the number of deaths caused by cerberus failures, pales in comparison to the number of people who died during the krogan rebellions.

Modifié par mosor, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:28 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Arijharn wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

However, in previous threads I've posted tons of evidence on how it is likely to be an admission of his plans, and nobody was able to couter it other than "it seems to me that..."

Post this evidence again and maybe you'll win a convert.

Of-course I have suspicions that you have no evidence because an analysis of TIM's character is not going to be objective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride-and-ego_down
http://www.orange-pa...ml#lie_omission

None of that prove beyond reasonable doubt however that he was definitely thinking about making a Human Reaper. Could it be that he just didn't think the statement was serious?

Look at it this way. If he wasn't, then there is nothing to worry about.

But if he was, and you did nothing, those lives would be on your hands.

[Inverness Moon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Look, I don't like the (kid? teen? Idealistic adult?)'s logic, but this is entirely the wrong attitude to take, let alone express. It doesn't matter how rational, reasonable, or logical you think you are, if you resort to calling someone stupid it ruins everything else.

Half of all persuasion is tact, and the other half is connecting their logic to accepted standards. If you want to take issue with a hyperbolic strawman, take issue with a hyperbolic strawman. If you take issue with a bunch of  assertions based on contradicting or openly inaccurate claims, do that.

But don't resort to a 'you're just stupid' dismissal, even if you think it. It doesn't help you convince the other person, and more importantly it doesn't help you convince anyone else. Which should be the point of any civilized argument in the first place. Whenever someone does that, they come off as a pretentious condescending ass, and most people will resist any argument or position from such a person just on general principal, no matter how right you are. (If you are right.) I doubt half the people who began your post read through to your last sentence, and why would they?

It doesn't help you. It doesn't help your argument. It doesn't help this thread. So please, don't.

If you're saying I'm resorting to the "you're just stupid" dismissal then you're putting words in my mouth and I don't appreciate it.

I have no interest in persuading anyone if they keep jumping to radical conclusions and claiming people believe TIM could do no wrong or Cerberus is full of saints just because they don't blow up the base. I don't have the patience to argue with anyone who can make leaps of logic like that. I prefer arguing with people who response to my arguments point by point instead of just ignoring them and repeating the same stuff to me or anyone else.

Anyhow its not cool to harp on about that so I'm going to drop it.

The way I see it, in the end, Reaper technology and how it concerns us and/or is dangerous to us is a problem. We will need to confront the problem eventually, now you can try and do that now with the collector base and figure out what you can about reaper technology before they begin using it on the entire galaxy, or you can just wing it and wait until the reapers actually get here and we're trying to fight for our existence.

I think the choice is a simple one; I'd much prefer to learn about indoctrination now from the collector base then wait until the main conflict when the reapers are using indoctrinated servants to take us out from the inside, like with what happened to the protheans.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:38 .

[Arijharn]

But why can you not seem to realise that the Reapers already 'have a foothold' when everyone is already dependent on their technology?



We use mass accelerator weaponry (interesting story, the US Navy is already trialling this weapon system in essence)

We are dependent on the Mass Relays to travel from point to point

We are dependent on the Citadel for our political and economic futures

Hell, biotics were probably purposely introduced by the Reapers via understanding of eezo exposure effects in organic nervous tissue (isn't it amazing how eezo can effect all species in pretty much the same way (biotic manifestation) from it? That seems less likely statistically speaking than the majority of intelligent lifeforms growing to be bipedal humanoids)



Given that it is much easier to adapt existing technology than creating brand new ones from scratch, and considering we already know that current dreadnought firepower is insufficient to breach Reaper shield technology (renegade statement on the Reaper derelict when Joker informs you that you've been cut off) then it would require a massive boost quickly in order to even try to reach parity with the Reapers.



It just can not be that the CB represents some sort of technological trap (although meta-gaming wise it wont offer too much advantage, nor will it automatically screw over every 'renegade' who chose it, or even paragon.) because of it's remoteness. Who's to say that the STG are any more trustful than Cerberus? Who's to say that the Turian Hierarchy is any more trustful than Cerberus?



I want to get along with them as well, but the STG did make the Genophage, and the Turian's did deploy it, what's to say that they don't deploy the Collector based weapons with any less zeal than what you assume TIM will?

[Arijharn]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

However, in previous threads I've posted tons of evidence on how it is likely to be an admission of his plans, and nobody was able to couter it other than "it seems to me that..."

Post this evidence again and maybe you'll win a convert.

Of-course I have suspicions that you have no evidence because an analysis of TIM's character is not going to be objective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride-and-ego_down
http://www.orange-pa...ml#lie_omission

None of that prove beyond reasonable doubt however that he was definitely thinking about making a Human Reaper. Could it be that he just didn't think the statement was serious?

Look at it this way. If he wasn't, then there is nothing to worry about.

But if he was, and you did nothing, those lives would be on your hands.

They're already in my hands because the Reapers are going to attack regardless

[mosor]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


The salarians created the genophage as a threat against the krogan but the turians used it to end the war. They know what it means to conduct risky experiments as well as mitigating the risks.

Salarians are known for solving problems by creating bigger ones! I'll take Cerberus' track record, over the shady Salarians I met in game

That is true. However, if the salarians hadn't created the genophage, the reapers would have already come for the krogan and all sentient life would be dead. So did they create a bigger problem, or help solve the biggest of all?

No. Reapers only gun for technologically advanced species. The krogan wern't an advanced spacefearing species, and dealing with the fallout of a nuclear winter to boot. If the salarians didn't uplift them, the reapers wouldn't have bothered them, just like they didn't bother humanity 50,000 years ago. Besides, even if they advanced on their own, they wouldn't come for them any sooner than anyone else.

Modifié par mosor, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:35 .

[scotchtape622]

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


The salarians created the genophage as a threat against the krogan but the turians used it to end the war. They know what it means to conduct risky experiments as well as mitigating the risks.

Salarians are known for solving problems by creating bigger ones! I'll take Cerberus' track record, over the shady Salarians I met in game

That is true. However, if the salarians hadn't created the genophage, the reapers would have already come for the krogan and all sentient life would be dead. So did they create a bigger problem, or help solve the biggest of all?

No. Reapers only gun for technologically advanced species. The krogan wern't an advanced spacefearing species, and dealing with the fallout of a nuclear winter to boot. If the salarians didn't uplift them, the reapers wouldn't have bothered them, just like they didn't bother humanity 50,000 years ago. Besides, even if they advanced on their own, they wouldn't come for them any sooner than anyone else.

The issue I think that is trying to be put up is that the Rachni were apparently working for the Reapers, and would have likely tried to activate the Citadel.

[Arijharn]

Hmmm, probably, but the Rachni were an organized militarily capable species, the Vorcha don't seem to have the same level. Scary sure, but not quite on the same scale.

[mosor]

scotchtape622 wrote...

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


The salarians created the genophage as a threat against the krogan but the turians used it to end the war. They know what it means to conduct risky experiments as well as mitigating the risks.

Salarians are known for solving problems by creating bigger ones! I'll take Cerberus' track record, over the shady Salarians I met in game

That is true. However, if the salarians hadn't created the genophage, the reapers would have already come for the krogan and all sentient life would be dead. So did they create a bigger problem, or help solve the biggest of all?

No. Reapers only gun for technologically advanced species. The krogan wern't an advanced spacefearing species, and dealing with the fallout of a nuclear winter to boot. If the salarians didn't uplift them, the reapers wouldn't have bothered them, just like they didn't bother humanity 50,000 years ago. Besides, even if they advanced on their own, they wouldn't come for them any sooner than anyone else.

The issue I think that is trying to be put up is that the Rachni were apparently working for the Reapers, and would have likely tried to activate the Citadel.

Rachni are not Krogan. They have different physiology. You only need to control the queen to control the whole species. Krogan are individuals.  They controlled the Rachni even before the Krogan were uplifted, never mind the genophage. The reapers had plenty of time after their uplifting and pre-genophage to control them if they could. They obviously couldn't.

Modifié par mosor, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:40 .

[Inverness Moon]

Perhaps the reapers used the rachni to prevent the Council from wanting to go exploring through the rest of the relay network? To keep us manageable or something.