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A galaxy run by TIM is better than no galaxy at all.
The Collector Base Argument Thread: Because It's Going To Happen, So It Might As Well Be In One Place (tm)
Débuté par
Dean_the_Young
, sept. 26 2010 05:49
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#77
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 01:05
Dean_the_Young
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Close, but missing something .Personally, I've always taken the position that if someone says they'll do something at all costs, you should take them at their word. Lies after that qualify as part of the cost. You only have to believe two things about the Illusive Man, the first being his priority (human advancement) and the second being the limiter (at all costs). Once you accept that, and that you yourself can be part of the cost, 'betrayals' aren't such a betraying.Nightwriter wrote...
I think you'd like to think you understand him, but you really have no idea how far he will or won't go. No one really does. He's deceptive, his identity is a total mystery and he works as hard as he can to keep it that way. Basically, if you've begun to think you understand him, you've become complacent.
I think ultimately you want to think that TIM is logical, and I honestly don't think you can assume that. The only thing you can assume is that he knows how to get what he wants efficiently and ruthlessly.
You can trust the Illusive Man to lie, cheat, steal, kill, main, and possibly slaughter in order to advance human interests. You can not trust him not to do these to you, but then he never claims that either.
Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 septembre 2010 - 01:07 .
#78
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 01:19
Nightwriter
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Suppose there is a situation in which the only way to save the galaxy is to destroy all hope for humanity to gain significant power over any other races, ever. Suppose there is a situation where the only way to save the galaxy is for Cerberus to be destroyed permanently. What will TIM choose?
I distrust the Illusive Man because he is mixing and muddling two goals - "saving the galaxy", and "advancing humanity". He will always try to achieve one while also achieving the other. I doubt whether he will accept an outcome that does not achieve both.
It's his priorities that trouble me. Saving the galaxy is more important than advancing humanity. But does he believe this? Somehow I think not.
I distrust the Illusive Man because he is mixing and muddling two goals - "saving the galaxy", and "advancing humanity". He will always try to achieve one while also achieving the other. I doubt whether he will accept an outcome that does not achieve both.
It's his priorities that trouble me. Saving the galaxy is more important than advancing humanity. But does he believe this? Somehow I think not.
#79
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 01:26
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How is that a delimma?Nightwriter wrote...
Suppose there is a situation in which the only way to save the galaxy is to destroy all hope for humanity to gain significant power over any other races, ever. Suppose there is a situation where the only way to save the galaxy is for Cerberus to be destroyed permanently. What will TIM choose?
I distrust the Illusive Man because he is mixing and muddling two goals - "saving the galaxy", and "advancing humanity". He will always try to achieve one while also achieving the other. I doubt whether he will accept an outcome that does not achieve both.
It's his priorities that trouble me. Saving the galaxy is more important than advancing humanity. But does he believe this? Somehow I think not.
If the galaxy dies, so does humanity. If humanity survives diminished, it is alive. That isn't a choice betwen saving the galaxy and advancing human power: that's a choice between humanity living and humanity dying. TIM's the head of survivalist group, not a Banzai cabal.
Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 septembre 2010 - 01:28 .
#80
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 01:30
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A fundamental factor in my decision to destroy the base was that the technology gap with the Reapers doesn’t seem to be all that wide in the first place. If it were Cerberus and the Turian military would never have been able to reverse engineer Reaper technology at all.
I’ve read Reaper to galactic to Reaper tech vs. “galactic” tech being compared to tanks vs. bows and arrows, or even nuclear bombs vs. bows and arrows.
But think about it, if the galactic civilization tech base wasn’t at least, as the Americans say, “in the ballpark” there could never have been any reverse engineering, which there obviously was, the Lazarus Project, EDI, and the thanix being spectacular examples.
If a “bow and arrow” society were to encounter were to encounter an intact nuclear missile or tank, much less a thoroughly exploded one, they wouldn’t have a bloody clue were to start or what to do with the thing, or its pieces as the case may be.
I see the tech gap with the Reapers as being much closer to a turn of the 21st century vs. turn of the 20th century gap. The Reapers have enough of an edge that they can make mincemeat out our fleets in a stand-up battle, but not so much that we couldn’t understand how they did it, or make a strategy to prevent it from happening.
We may not be able to replicate or even control their tech, but we can understand it and the principals it operates on and eventually duplicate it, even without the CB to study intact.
Considering that humanity went from a one planet, pre-spaceflight civilization to a galaxy spanning high-tech empire in less than one generation, while the Reapers have been stuck at more or less the same tech level since the days of the dinosaurs, it is not unrealistic to expect that, unless the Reapers win, and win big, in the opening rounds of this conflict THEY will be the ones at a tech disadvantage.
This may be why the Reapers “harvest” when they do, if they wait much longer they don’t stand a chance.
I’ve read Reaper to galactic to Reaper tech vs. “galactic” tech being compared to tanks vs. bows and arrows, or even nuclear bombs vs. bows and arrows.
But think about it, if the galactic civilization tech base wasn’t at least, as the Americans say, “in the ballpark” there could never have been any reverse engineering, which there obviously was, the Lazarus Project, EDI, and the thanix being spectacular examples.
If a “bow and arrow” society were to encounter were to encounter an intact nuclear missile or tank, much less a thoroughly exploded one, they wouldn’t have a bloody clue were to start or what to do with the thing, or its pieces as the case may be.
I see the tech gap with the Reapers as being much closer to a turn of the 21st century vs. turn of the 20th century gap. The Reapers have enough of an edge that they can make mincemeat out our fleets in a stand-up battle, but not so much that we couldn’t understand how they did it, or make a strategy to prevent it from happening.
We may not be able to replicate or even control their tech, but we can understand it and the principals it operates on and eventually duplicate it, even without the CB to study intact.
Considering that humanity went from a one planet, pre-spaceflight civilization to a galaxy spanning high-tech empire in less than one generation, while the Reapers have been stuck at more or less the same tech level since the days of the dinosaurs, it is not unrealistic to expect that, unless the Reapers win, and win big, in the opening rounds of this conflict THEY will be the ones at a tech disadvantage.
This may be why the Reapers “harvest” when they do, if they wait much longer they don’t stand a chance.
#81
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 01:37
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You misunderstand. His goal is not just to save humanity, it is to advance it - he only does one so he can achieve the other. He doesn't know when to stop. It's all mixed together for him, saving humanity, advancing it, making humanity strongest.
We all agree working with TIM is good in the short term. Because yes, he does want to save humanity, and that's good. Which is why my other disagreement is that I don't just want to save humanity. Again, our goals clash.
Supposing he wanted to wipe out every other sentient race out there to save humanity? Not cool, bro.
We all agree working with TIM is good in the short term. Because yes, he does want to save humanity, and that's good. Which is why my other disagreement is that I don't just want to save humanity. Again, our goals clash.
Supposing he wanted to wipe out every other sentient race out there to save humanity? Not cool, bro.
#82
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Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 01:42
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Nightwriter wrote...
You misunderstand. His goal is not just to save humanity, it is to advance it - he only does one so he can achieve the other. He doesn't know when to stop. It's all mixed together for him, saving humanity, advancing it, making humanity strongest.
I think you've become complacent.
#83
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 01:44
UNAVAILABLE
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Somewhere along the line our post/response chain split into two, so I'm going to try replying to both of your last posts at once (and see if I can avoid confusing myself at the same time). Apologies in advance for another rather long post.
[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...
If the Reapers can communicate long distance in ways that are undetectable, then my hypothesis that devices built from their tech can be compromised, remains valid.[/quote]
You thesis is based on the assumptions that a com system can be hidden without notice or replacement at virtually no cost to the reproducer. But since such inter-galactic technology is discernable (as Retribution evidences), and is costly (as EDI testifies), and there is no sign that it's irreplaceable (or any sign that it exists in more mundane equipment), it's groundless or flawed on most of its basis.
[/quote]
Is Retribution DLC or am I just not remembering the name?
The question I would ask before conceding this point is "does a receiver need the expensive fancy equipment?" I can understand a transmitter would in which case my "reveal position" idea won't hold up. But if a receiver can be small/undetectable then the opportunity for killswitches remains.
My final point on the undetectable energy signals is to reiterate our ignorance of how many they may have at their disposal. We've identified a short range field (indoctrination) and long range (quantum comm). Nothing in the game supports the assertion that it does exist, but it would suck to lose the galaxy because "oops, we never thought of that."
[quote]
On short notice, with limited resources and supplies? Generally high, if only from a logistics standpoint. Technology doesn't tend towards 'oh, we can replace amplifier X with Radio Y and no one will notice.'
With time? Perhaps. But short notice? No.
[/quote]
When the Reapers do the invasion dance, we're told that they send indoctrinated survivors to other worlds. I can't think of any reason why the Reapers wouldn't send an indoctrinated scientist with some "helpful tech" to pass on to his fellows. After repeating the process several times, the Reapers would have a substantial "database of benign looking, evil organic-slaying tech" blueprints and schematics on file.
[quote][quote]
How many times have the Reapers played this game? Or should we assume that the Reapers have forgotten that a major part of their success is based upon deceitful/dual purpose tech and they no longer consider that a strategy worth pursuing?
[/quote]
Witty, but those were things they intended to be found, and they were meant to be used. Things that weren't, aren't. Like the Heretic Virus, the Thannix, or EDI (Sovereign fragments).
The Collectors were never supposed to be reached in the first place, and couldn't be reached until immediately before the Suicide Mission. It isn't until the IFF goes off that Harbinger has a valid concern that he can even be reached.[/quote]
But my thesis is concerning tech that Harbinger does want us to find. Again, I'm not talking about the physical technology built into the base, but the data stored on the computers.
[quote][quote]
My point was relating to a device, "widget" in which the second function is unknown/undetectable, and is intrinsically present (like a side effect) of the primary function. If that makes sense. When manufactured, even to human design standards this "widget" performs its primary function as expected, but also performs the second unknown/undetectable function.[/quote]
Secondary functions depend on secondary systems, which are quickly revealed once technology is examined and studied, which Cerberus would also be doing.[/quote]
Interesting. I find myself making an assumption I did not realize that I was making. IF an undetectable signal is useable to the Reapers that is neither indoctrination or quantum comm, then I'm assuming that this energy is relatively simple/straightforward in nature (simple in the way, electricity is "simple"). That is to say, the devices necessary to make it work are no more complicated than the devices used to transmit/receive radio signals. Such a device wouldn't necessarily require a "secondary system" to support it. But I'm deviating from game talk here.
[quote][quote]
My position is that Harbinger had enough advanced warning of Shepard's approach to blank the hard drives of truly useful data, and replace it with data that the Reapers want us to have for their benefit.[/quote]
That would be the IFF raid, correct?
Your position is that Harbinger and the Collectors, in a space ranging from hours to days, managed to redesign every technology system to include hidden functions and unknown systems (some of which Cerberus already has samples of)
[/quote]
No. As I stated above, I'm only asserting that data in the computers changed. Computer data is going to be analyzed and put to use before anyone gets the base physically disassembled and reverse engineered.
[quote]
What, precisely, is supposed to happen with these systems? What do they do? I remember signalling the location of these bases for when the Reapers arrive?
[/quote]
Killswitches for vital systems, backdoors for hacking and virus attacks. The latter obviously require more sophisticated systems to be in place, and would only be possible in the "cut and paste tech" scenario we discussed earlier, where scientists just produce devices almost if not exactly the way the schematics show.
[quote]
She? That's sexist to assume! [/haha][/quote]
WHAT?!?! It's painfully obvious that FemShep rules.
[quote]
It's hard to say that the Collector Base wasn't about as well defended as it could be given what they had at the time: we really don't know what they had available to use and move. The Collectors weren't a large force in the first place, and there wasn't one sole approach to guard: Shepard's ship could have crashed/landed anywhere on the base, and everyone knows what happens when you equally try to defend all points: given the size of the base and the lack of external sensors, it was impossible for the Collectors to focus defenses in one spot.
[/quote]
I'm going by Shepard's plan of attack. Two main ways to get to the one point that can overload the engines. I'm guessing Harbinger has some clue as to what Shepard intends to do with the base. And sure, the Normandy could have landed anywhere, but Shepard didn't cut through the hull. I would assume that thing has a finite number of airlocks/access points. Collectors can fly, Shepard can't, maybe locking down the floating elevator platforms would have proven helpful.
[quote][quote]
That's why in my original post I include my list of viable alternatives. Again, I'm not stating that there are NO valid reasons to keep the base. I'm arguing against the position that there are NO valid reasons to destroy it.
[/quote]
Ah, well my friend, that was never in doubt.
Stupidity is a valid reason. :happy:
[/quote]
Dude, you found me out. All this arguing is just a facade to cover the fact that I totally misunderstood the mission parameters. In truth I blew up the base because I thought The Illusive Man was on board.
[quote]
(But seriously, you've probably given the most well thought out objects I've heard in months. Kudos, even if I do think it's largely baseless in the game, but you have my respect for arguing so well.)
[/quote]
Well, if you're going to play the "likelihood" card . . .
Ditto. Thanks for an interesting discussion.
[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...
If the Reapers can communicate long distance in ways that are undetectable, then my hypothesis that devices built from their tech can be compromised, remains valid.[/quote]
You thesis is based on the assumptions that a com system can be hidden without notice or replacement at virtually no cost to the reproducer. But since such inter-galactic technology is discernable (as Retribution evidences), and is costly (as EDI testifies), and there is no sign that it's irreplaceable (or any sign that it exists in more mundane equipment), it's groundless or flawed on most of its basis.
[/quote]
Is Retribution DLC or am I just not remembering the name?
The question I would ask before conceding this point is "does a receiver need the expensive fancy equipment?" I can understand a transmitter would in which case my "reveal position" idea won't hold up. But if a receiver can be small/undetectable then the opportunity for killswitches remains.
My final point on the undetectable energy signals is to reiterate our ignorance of how many they may have at their disposal. We've identified a short range field (indoctrination) and long range (quantum comm). Nothing in the game supports the assertion that it does exist, but it would suck to lose the galaxy because "oops, we never thought of that."
[quote]
On short notice, with limited resources and supplies? Generally high, if only from a logistics standpoint. Technology doesn't tend towards 'oh, we can replace amplifier X with Radio Y and no one will notice.'
With time? Perhaps. But short notice? No.
[/quote]
When the Reapers do the invasion dance, we're told that they send indoctrinated survivors to other worlds. I can't think of any reason why the Reapers wouldn't send an indoctrinated scientist with some "helpful tech" to pass on to his fellows. After repeating the process several times, the Reapers would have a substantial "database of benign looking, evil organic-slaying tech" blueprints and schematics on file.
[quote][quote]
How many times have the Reapers played this game? Or should we assume that the Reapers have forgotten that a major part of their success is based upon deceitful/dual purpose tech and they no longer consider that a strategy worth pursuing?
[/quote]
Witty, but those were things they intended to be found, and they were meant to be used. Things that weren't, aren't. Like the Heretic Virus, the Thannix, or EDI (Sovereign fragments).
The Collectors were never supposed to be reached in the first place, and couldn't be reached until immediately before the Suicide Mission. It isn't until the IFF goes off that Harbinger has a valid concern that he can even be reached.[/quote]
But my thesis is concerning tech that Harbinger does want us to find. Again, I'm not talking about the physical technology built into the base, but the data stored on the computers.
[quote][quote]
My point was relating to a device, "widget" in which the second function is unknown/undetectable, and is intrinsically present (like a side effect) of the primary function. If that makes sense. When manufactured, even to human design standards this "widget" performs its primary function as expected, but also performs the second unknown/undetectable function.[/quote]
Secondary functions depend on secondary systems, which are quickly revealed once technology is examined and studied, which Cerberus would also be doing.[/quote]
Interesting. I find myself making an assumption I did not realize that I was making. IF an undetectable signal is useable to the Reapers that is neither indoctrination or quantum comm, then I'm assuming that this energy is relatively simple/straightforward in nature (simple in the way, electricity is "simple"). That is to say, the devices necessary to make it work are no more complicated than the devices used to transmit/receive radio signals. Such a device wouldn't necessarily require a "secondary system" to support it. But I'm deviating from game talk here.
[quote][quote]
My position is that Harbinger had enough advanced warning of Shepard's approach to blank the hard drives of truly useful data, and replace it with data that the Reapers want us to have for their benefit.[/quote]
That would be the IFF raid, correct?
Your position is that Harbinger and the Collectors, in a space ranging from hours to days, managed to redesign every technology system to include hidden functions and unknown systems (some of which Cerberus already has samples of)
[/quote]
No. As I stated above, I'm only asserting that data in the computers changed. Computer data is going to be analyzed and put to use before anyone gets the base physically disassembled and reverse engineered.
[quote]
What, precisely, is supposed to happen with these systems? What do they do? I remember signalling the location of these bases for when the Reapers arrive?
[/quote]
Killswitches for vital systems, backdoors for hacking and virus attacks. The latter obviously require more sophisticated systems to be in place, and would only be possible in the "cut and paste tech" scenario we discussed earlier, where scientists just produce devices almost if not exactly the way the schematics show.
[quote]
She? That's sexist to assume! [/haha][/quote]
WHAT?!?! It's painfully obvious that FemShep rules.
[quote]
It's hard to say that the Collector Base wasn't about as well defended as it could be given what they had at the time: we really don't know what they had available to use and move. The Collectors weren't a large force in the first place, and there wasn't one sole approach to guard: Shepard's ship could have crashed/landed anywhere on the base, and everyone knows what happens when you equally try to defend all points: given the size of the base and the lack of external sensors, it was impossible for the Collectors to focus defenses in one spot.
[/quote]
I'm going by Shepard's plan of attack. Two main ways to get to the one point that can overload the engines. I'm guessing Harbinger has some clue as to what Shepard intends to do with the base. And sure, the Normandy could have landed anywhere, but Shepard didn't cut through the hull. I would assume that thing has a finite number of airlocks/access points. Collectors can fly, Shepard can't, maybe locking down the floating elevator platforms would have proven helpful.
[quote][quote]
That's why in my original post I include my list of viable alternatives. Again, I'm not stating that there are NO valid reasons to keep the base. I'm arguing against the position that there are NO valid reasons to destroy it.
[/quote]
Ah, well my friend, that was never in doubt.
Stupidity is a valid reason. :happy:
[/quote]
Dude, you found me out. All this arguing is just a facade to cover the fact that I totally misunderstood the mission parameters. In truth I blew up the base because I thought The Illusive Man was on board.
[quote]
(But seriously, you've probably given the most well thought out objects I've heard in months. Kudos, even if I do think it's largely baseless in the game, but you have my respect for arguing so well.)
[/quote]
Well, if you're going to play the "likelihood" card . . .
Ditto. Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Modifié par UNAVAILABLE, 27 septembre 2010 - 01:51 .
#84
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 01:46
Arijharn
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How do you know implicitly that the Reapers haven't advanced between wiping out the Protheans 50,000 years ago and the next upcoming purge though?
The issue however is not so much that we can't understand Reaper tech after they arrive, but rather now is the best time to do what we can. Everyone building super railguns that can destroy the Reapers like the derelict is probably not a workable solution within an unknown timeframe.
The issue however is not so much that we can't understand Reaper tech after they arrive, but rather now is the best time to do what we can. Everyone building super railguns that can destroy the Reapers like the derelict is probably not a workable solution within an unknown timeframe.
#85
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 01:47
Dean_the_Young
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Suppose my aunt was my uncle?Nightwriter wrote...
You misunderstand. His goal is not just to save humanity, it is to advance it - he only does one so he can achieve the other. He doesn't know when to stop. It's all mixed together for him, saving humanity, advancing it, making humanity strongest.
We all agree working with TIM is good in the short term. Because yes, he does want to save humanity, and that's good. Which is why my other disagreement is that I don't just want to save humanity. Again, our goals clash.
Supposing he wanted to wipe out every other sentient race out there to save humanity? Not cool, bro.
Suppose Tali is secretly a geth infiltrator?
Suppose Anderson is part of the Illuminati?
Suppose the Salarians are planning to drop the Human Genophage any day now?
We can 'suppose' any number of things that have any little bit of basis or likelyhood of happening but would totally change the situation.
#86
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 01:49
Nightwriter
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Lol, it's not ridiculous speculation to wonder if he'd place humanity above all the other races. He would.
#87
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 01:56
Arijharn
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While I don't doubt that he would put humanity first, I wonder if he'd be like: "Hmm, we've developed super effective weapon types based from our studying the Collector base. I best surreptiously leak this information, perhaps through the Shadow Broker, in order to strengthen any unified response against the Reapers."
I can see him sharing some (but by no means all) information gleaned from the CB, because if he doesn't, he's just as short sighted as the Council imo.
I can see him sharing some (but by no means all) information gleaned from the CB, because if he doesn't, he's just as short sighted as the Council imo.
#88
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 01:57
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Nightwriter wrote...
Lol, it's not ridiculous speculation to wonder if he'd place humanity above all the other races. He would.
That was never in question.
#89
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 02:07
Nightwriter
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Arijharn wrote...
While I don't doubt that he would put humanity first, I wonder if he'd be like: "Hmm, we've developed super effective weapon types based from our studying the Collector base. I best surreptiously leak this information, perhaps through the Shadow Broker, in order to strengthen any unified response against the Reapers."
I can see him sharing some (but by no means all) information gleaned from the CB, because if he doesn't, he's just as short sighted as the Council imo.
Did you read about project TRAPDOOR in the dossier?
I actually felt involuntary satisfaction at the results... I mean, I can't pretend I liked how ridiculously powerful the asari were. So now TIM makes a chemical that cripples their biotic powers and successfully tests it on a well known asari matriarch.
Then I have to learn that TIM takes it a step further and makes sure human biotics (Jack) are immune to this chemical. The document specifies nanosurgery performed on her. And then my doubts that the Teltin facility was actually rogue came back...
#90
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 02:15
Arijharn
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Nightwriter wrote...
Arijharn wrote...
While I don't doubt that he would put humanity first, I wonder if he'd be like: "Hmm, we've developed super effective weapon types based from our studying the Collector base. I best surreptiously leak this information, perhaps through the Shadow Broker, in order to strengthen any unified response against the Reapers."
I can see him sharing some (but by no means all) information gleaned from the CB, because if he doesn't, he's just as short sighted as the Council imo.
Did you read about project TRAPDOOR in the dossier?
I actually felt involuntary satisfaction at the results... I mean, I can't pretend I liked how ridiculously powerful the asari were. So now TIM makes a chemical that cripples their biotic powers and successfully tests it on a well known asari matriarch.
Then I have to learn that TIM takes it a step further and makes sure human biotics (Jack) are immune to this chemical. The document specifies nanosurgery performed on her. And then my doubts that the Teltin facility was actually rogue came back...
I think that can go either way to be honest. We know via internal security documents on Teltin that they are purposely keeping details away from the Illusive Man so it seems to me that Teltin was indeed rogue, but we don't know what about though.
I'm going to guess that Illusive Man knew that Pragia existed to boost biotic potential, and he knew subject zero existed and who was her identity, but I'm guessing that he didn't micro-manage the facility and that's why he was getting suspicious, Teltin kept on asking for biotic kids and TIM was like: "WTF, I SENT YOU 6 YESTERDAY?!"
#91
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 02:18
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Arijharn wrote...
How do you know implicitly that the Reapers haven't advanced between wiping out the Protheans 50,000 years ago and the next upcoming purge though?
I suppose I don’t, I was drawing a conclusion based on the marked similarities between the derelict Reaper, Sovereign (who claimed to be quite old himself), the Collectors, and the Reaper larvae, none of which feature any markedly different tactics or technologies. A slow firing main gun and ultra-powerful kinetic barriers and armour, labour provided by indoctrinated organics and husks.
Did you reach a different conclusion?
The issue however is not so much that we can't understand Reaper tech after they arrive, but rather now is the best time to do what we can. Everyone building super railguns that can destroy the Reapers like the derelict is probably not a workable solution within an unknown timeframe.
True enough, the timeframe of the Reaper arrival is unknown. But, since the timeframe is indeed unknown, who’s to say what does and does not fit in it?
And what happens once the Reapers get here? A “scortched-space” of destroying mass relays could seriously slow them. If we control or destroy the Citadel and the Reapers have to reconstruct the mass relays as they go, it could buy a lot of time.
Super rail guns may not be a workable solution in a very limited time frame or maybe they are, large scale mass accelerator weapons are the standard on warships, every space-faring species already constructs them. They are, however, a viable option for killing Reapers, though far from the only one.
#92
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Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 02:21
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I suspect the "rogue" aspect of the Teltin Facility was that the head researchers were lying to TIM about how many subjects they were killing in their experiments. I doubt TIM was against the torture or suffering. What would anger him would be the cost of all those dead kids. Biotic children among humans would have been an expensive commodity, especially back then when biotics were brand new in humans.
#93
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 02:22
Nightwriter
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So either way, he knew about Jack and what was being done to her. ... Damn. I was really hoping he was in the dark about the bulk of that. I guess that was too much to expect. Sigh.
#94
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 02:27
Dean_the_Young
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[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...
Somewhere along the line our post/response chain split into two, so I'm going to try replying to both of your last posts at once (and see if I can avoid confusing myself at the same time).[/quote]Fair enough. I think you made an edit while I was posting, and I made a separate reply for that one paragraph.
It's late over here, so kindly forgive me if I just address the basics. No concessions or insults implied unless I state otherwise.
[quote]
Is Retribution DLC or am I just not remembering the name?[/quote]Retribution is the latest ME novel, in which TIM forces Reaper cybernetics into a former Cerberus agent-turned-traitor. The cybernetics indoctrinate him (an interesting implication towards the capabilities and limits of indoctrination), and Grayson (the man) talks to the Reapers through the quantam communicators built in.
[quote]
The question I would ask before conceding this point is "does a receiver need the expensive fancy equipment?" I can understand a transmitter would in which case my "reveal position" idea won't hold up. But if a receiver can be small/undetectable then the opportunity for killswitches remains.[/quote]For general signals, it would be equally hard, because the receiver has to be able to receive the signal without being triggered by noise, while stable enough to resist destruction. In something as hard-use as, say, a weapon system, that's pretty significant, and receivers tend to be one of those designs in which the physics is already understood, and so designs are already standarded and recognizable.
In the case of a quantam entanglement device, where both halves have to be made together, the idea is impossible entirely. The Reaper half would have to have been created at the same time as the original, and that ignores the cost aspect. As the Reapers are in darkspace, it would require Cerberus spending a fortune per gun and then giving the Reapers the means to communicate.
[quote]
My final point on the undetectable energy signals is to reiterate our ignorance of how many they may have at their disposal. We've identified a short range field (indoctrination) and long range (quantum comm). Nothing in the game supports the assertion that it does exist, but it would suck to lose the galaxy because "oops, we never thought of that."[/quote]Now, having said that, wouldn't you agree that the best way to find out about that would be to study it and look into it? The only place in the galaxy with any hope of that is now the Collector Base.
The danger of the imaginary capability doesn't go away if you ignore it: you can either face it now, and have a chance to uncover it, or when the Reapers arrive, at which point you'll have a dozen similar problems.
[quote]
When the Reapers do the invasion dance, we're told that they send indoctrinated survivors to other worlds. I can't think of any reason why the Reapers wouldn't send an indoctrinated scientist with some "helpful tech" to pass on to his fellows. After repeating the process several times, the Reapers would have a substantial "database of benign looking, evil organic-slaying tech" blueprints and schematics on file. [/quote]This comes back to the old 'the base is an indoctrination trap', which has many old answers. Taking apart the station, carting it away in pieces for separated study, going through the Base computers with EDI to look for the device/info, using AI/VI to harvest the place, etc.
It also brings the matter of just what Indoctrination can do, and what its limits are: you can't make someone do something they really don't want to do, for example, without hurting their capabilities, unless you have implants to compensate for the loss. Without cybernetics, what those scientists can actually do becomes limited.
Please remind me again later to return to this topic. I have some thoughts on it that, even if you don't agree on this subject, may give everyone pause for thought.
[quote]
But my thesis is concerning tech that Harbinger does want us to find. Again, I'm not talking about the physical technology built into the base, but the data stored on the computers. [/quote]This comes into a more basic problem: Cerberus has the hardware. Not only the hardware on the base, but the hardware captured before the base, and the hardware that has already been taken apart for study.
The introduction of new systems and components in the plans that weren't present in the devices already taken apart would be an immediate and significant flag, and draw notice as researchers tried to understand the difference between the two.
[quote]
No. As I stated above, I'm only asserting that data in the computers changed. Computer data is going to be analyzed and put to use before anyone gets the base physically disassembled and reverse engineered.[/quote]Alright. Already touched on this above, and the disrepency between what Cerberus has already seen and what it would read on the changed data.
[quote]
[quote]
What, precisely, is supposed to happen with these systems? What do they do? I remember signalling the location of these bases for when the Reapers arrive?
[/quote]
Killswitches for vital systems, backdoors for hacking and virus attacks. The latter obviously require more sophisticated systems to be in place, and would only be possible in the "cut and paste tech" scenario we discussed earlier, where scientists just produce devices almost if not exactly the way the schematics show.[/quote]These are threats if the systems are copied, not if the merely the technological basis are. This might hold true if Cerberus did nothing but let the Collector Base machines make the guns for them, but at about the moment Cerberus takes the theory and executes it their own way, as they often do, it's a new system which won't have any reason to have those. No Cerberus techie, for example, needs to put in a receiver or a kill code for the particle thannix whatever he's calibrating, any more than the Thannix became useless as the Collectors hacked through EDI's reaper parts.
It also depends on those hidden features never being detected and retroactively removed as analysis continues. I'd also mark them as a relatively minor problem compared to the gains overall.
[quote]
[quote]
She? That's sexist to assume! [/haha][/quote]
WHAT?!?! It's painfully obvious that FemShep rules.[/quote]Peshaw. The only good FemShep is a Cerberus-loyalst sole survivor Shep (who, through the miracle of hidden irony, is the only reason I've been able to sit through a mostly paragon playthrough).
[quote]
I'm going by Shepard's plan of attack. Two main ways to get to the one point that can overload the engines. I'm guessing Harbinger has some clue as to what Shepard intends to do with the base. And sure, the Normandy could have landed anywhere, but Shepard didn't cut through the hull. I would assume that thing has a finite number of airlocks/access points. Collectors can fly, Shepard can't, maybe locking down the floating elevator platforms would have proven helpful.[/quote]Shepard's plan of attack, however, was limited by what he could get to by walking from the crash site. He didn't have options of choice, really: the dialogue fits just as well if you mentally add 'the best we can do from here' to the beginning of the plan.
Floating elevators have always been something EDI hacks for you. She's awesome like that.
[quote]
Well, if you're going to play the "likelihood" card . . .
Ditto. Thanks for an interesting discussion.
[/quote]I play the likelihood for reasonable* expectations and predictions. It's when they get extreme without support that I get grouchy.
People who say, oh, Cerberus would use the technology to try and indoctrinate the Council to Humanity's advantage (something I have have a fanfic written about), I freely accept. It's possible (a benefit from the base), reasonable (practical and applicable), and fits in the context of the stable. Those, however, who will go on about how TIM will enslave the Council species and turn them into Reapers... not so much. Both are about how TIM will abuse the Base, but the fears of one are much more likely than the other.
In short, I strongly dislike objections that don't have support (or, worse, possibility) from the game, while conclusions from reasonal possibilities are much better.Compare that to you, where I think my biggest disagreement with you has been about the technical
feasibility of your thesis, and the risks that it entails. Rather
grounded, and very low on exageration.
Mind you, what generally comes after the reasonable fears is a stern disagreement about how much they weigh against the choice...
*Yes, naturally, what I consider reasonable.
Goodnight!
Somewhere along the line our post/response chain split into two, so I'm going to try replying to both of your last posts at once (and see if I can avoid confusing myself at the same time).[/quote]Fair enough. I think you made an edit while I was posting, and I made a separate reply for that one paragraph.
It's late over here, so kindly forgive me if I just address the basics. No concessions or insults implied unless I state otherwise.
[quote]
Is Retribution DLC or am I just not remembering the name?[/quote]Retribution is the latest ME novel, in which TIM forces Reaper cybernetics into a former Cerberus agent-turned-traitor. The cybernetics indoctrinate him (an interesting implication towards the capabilities and limits of indoctrination), and Grayson (the man) talks to the Reapers through the quantam communicators built in.
[quote]
The question I would ask before conceding this point is "does a receiver need the expensive fancy equipment?" I can understand a transmitter would in which case my "reveal position" idea won't hold up. But if a receiver can be small/undetectable then the opportunity for killswitches remains.[/quote]For general signals, it would be equally hard, because the receiver has to be able to receive the signal without being triggered by noise, while stable enough to resist destruction. In something as hard-use as, say, a weapon system, that's pretty significant, and receivers tend to be one of those designs in which the physics is already understood, and so designs are already standarded and recognizable.
In the case of a quantam entanglement device, where both halves have to be made together, the idea is impossible entirely. The Reaper half would have to have been created at the same time as the original, and that ignores the cost aspect. As the Reapers are in darkspace, it would require Cerberus spending a fortune per gun and then giving the Reapers the means to communicate.
[quote]
My final point on the undetectable energy signals is to reiterate our ignorance of how many they may have at their disposal. We've identified a short range field (indoctrination) and long range (quantum comm). Nothing in the game supports the assertion that it does exist, but it would suck to lose the galaxy because "oops, we never thought of that."[/quote]Now, having said that, wouldn't you agree that the best way to find out about that would be to study it and look into it? The only place in the galaxy with any hope of that is now the Collector Base.
The danger of the imaginary capability doesn't go away if you ignore it: you can either face it now, and have a chance to uncover it, or when the Reapers arrive, at which point you'll have a dozen similar problems.
[quote]
When the Reapers do the invasion dance, we're told that they send indoctrinated survivors to other worlds. I can't think of any reason why the Reapers wouldn't send an indoctrinated scientist with some "helpful tech" to pass on to his fellows. After repeating the process several times, the Reapers would have a substantial "database of benign looking, evil organic-slaying tech" blueprints and schematics on file. [/quote]This comes back to the old 'the base is an indoctrination trap', which has many old answers. Taking apart the station, carting it away in pieces for separated study, going through the Base computers with EDI to look for the device/info, using AI/VI to harvest the place, etc.
It also brings the matter of just what Indoctrination can do, and what its limits are: you can't make someone do something they really don't want to do, for example, without hurting their capabilities, unless you have implants to compensate for the loss. Without cybernetics, what those scientists can actually do becomes limited.
Please remind me again later to return to this topic. I have some thoughts on it that, even if you don't agree on this subject, may give everyone pause for thought.
[quote]
But my thesis is concerning tech that Harbinger does want us to find. Again, I'm not talking about the physical technology built into the base, but the data stored on the computers. [/quote]This comes into a more basic problem: Cerberus has the hardware. Not only the hardware on the base, but the hardware captured before the base, and the hardware that has already been taken apart for study.
The introduction of new systems and components in the plans that weren't present in the devices already taken apart would be an immediate and significant flag, and draw notice as researchers tried to understand the difference between the two.
[quote]
No. As I stated above, I'm only asserting that data in the computers changed. Computer data is going to be analyzed and put to use before anyone gets the base physically disassembled and reverse engineered.[/quote]Alright. Already touched on this above, and the disrepency between what Cerberus has already seen and what it would read on the changed data.
[quote]
[quote]
What, precisely, is supposed to happen with these systems? What do they do? I remember signalling the location of these bases for when the Reapers arrive?
[/quote]
Killswitches for vital systems, backdoors for hacking and virus attacks. The latter obviously require more sophisticated systems to be in place, and would only be possible in the "cut and paste tech" scenario we discussed earlier, where scientists just produce devices almost if not exactly the way the schematics show.[/quote]These are threats if the systems are copied, not if the merely the technological basis are. This might hold true if Cerberus did nothing but let the Collector Base machines make the guns for them, but at about the moment Cerberus takes the theory and executes it their own way, as they often do, it's a new system which won't have any reason to have those. No Cerberus techie, for example, needs to put in a receiver or a kill code for the particle thannix whatever he's calibrating, any more than the Thannix became useless as the Collectors hacked through EDI's reaper parts.
It also depends on those hidden features never being detected and retroactively removed as analysis continues. I'd also mark them as a relatively minor problem compared to the gains overall.
[quote]
[quote]
She? That's sexist to assume! [/haha][/quote]
WHAT?!?! It's painfully obvious that FemShep rules.[/quote]Peshaw. The only good FemShep is a Cerberus-loyalst sole survivor Shep (who, through the miracle of hidden irony, is the only reason I've been able to sit through a mostly paragon playthrough).
[quote]
I'm going by Shepard's plan of attack. Two main ways to get to the one point that can overload the engines. I'm guessing Harbinger has some clue as to what Shepard intends to do with the base. And sure, the Normandy could have landed anywhere, but Shepard didn't cut through the hull. I would assume that thing has a finite number of airlocks/access points. Collectors can fly, Shepard can't, maybe locking down the floating elevator platforms would have proven helpful.[/quote]Shepard's plan of attack, however, was limited by what he could get to by walking from the crash site. He didn't have options of choice, really: the dialogue fits just as well if you mentally add 'the best we can do from here' to the beginning of the plan.
Floating elevators have always been something EDI hacks for you. She's awesome like that.
[quote]
Well, if you're going to play the "likelihood" card . . .
Ditto. Thanks for an interesting discussion.
[/quote]I play the likelihood for reasonable* expectations and predictions. It's when they get extreme without support that I get grouchy.
People who say, oh, Cerberus would use the technology to try and indoctrinate the Council to Humanity's advantage (something I have have a fanfic written about), I freely accept. It's possible (a benefit from the base), reasonable (practical and applicable), and fits in the context of the stable. Those, however, who will go on about how TIM will enslave the Council species and turn them into Reapers... not so much. Both are about how TIM will abuse the Base, but the fears of one are much more likely than the other.
In short, I strongly dislike objections that don't have support (or, worse, possibility) from the game, while conclusions from reasonal possibilities are much better.Compare that to you, where I think my biggest disagreement with you has been about the technical
feasibility of your thesis, and the risks that it entails. Rather
grounded, and very low on exageration.
Mind you, what generally comes after the reasonable fears is a stern disagreement about how much they weigh against the choice...
*Yes, naturally, what I consider reasonable.
Goodnight!
#95
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 02:28
Guest_Shandepared_*
Guest_Shandepared_*
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Why would you think he was in the dark about that? What makes you think he is a nice man?
#96
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 02:31
Nightwriter
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I was hoping he was in the dark about a) how they obtained Subject Zero, and 
that they tortured and vivisected her and all the other kiddies. Didn't think he's a nice man. Hoped he wasn't outright stereotypical mustache twirling villain evil (stomping puppies/torturing kiddies). Makes it too easy to judge him.
that they tortured and vivisected her and all the other kiddies. Didn't think he's a nice man. Hoped he wasn't outright stereotypical mustache twirling villain evil (stomping puppies/torturing kiddies). Makes it too easy to judge him.
#97
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 02:34
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Nightwriter wrote...
Hoped he wasn't outright stereotypical mustache twirling villain evil (stomping puppies/torturing kiddies). Makes it too easy to judge him.
That makes him mustache twirling evil to you, but not to everyone.
#98
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 02:34
Dean_the_Young
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I don't know about that.Nightwriter wrote...
So either way, he knew about Jack and what was being done to her. ... Damn. I was really hoping he was in the dark about the bulk of that. I guess that was too much to expect. Sigh.
Or rather, I don't know about all of that.
Did he know about the surgeries, the implants, and possibly the conditioning matches? Maybe. But the torture, the beatings, and what the others were put through which was worse? That, I don't think so.
Teltin crossed a line, but that line was already in 'bad', just not 'worse'.
#99
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 02:35
chris025657
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Nightwriter wrote...
You misunderstand. His goal is not just to save humanity, it is to advance it - he only does one so he can achieve the other. He doesn't know when to stop. It's all mixed together for him, saving humanity, advancing it, making humanity strongest.
We all agree working with TIM is good in the short term. Because yes, he does want to save humanity, and that's good. Which is why my other disagreement is that I don't just want to save humanity. Again, our goals clash.
Supposing he wanted to wipe out every other sentient race out there to save humanity? Not cool, bro.
I don't think advancing humanity and achieving dominance can be equated with oppression and extermination of other species. In my opinion, this is a speculative risk that doesn't come close to overcoming the known risk of total genocide from the Reapers.
I would argue that if there is anything that can be said with certainty about TIM it's that he wants to defeat the Reapers and ensure the survival of humanity. This is why he's poured enormous resources into bringing Shepard back, rebuilding the Normandy, and financing the mission.
#100
Posté 27 septembre 2010 - 02:36
Arijharn
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I did, because of something that Vigil said on Ilos. He said, if I remember correctly, that the Reapers take anything of value and then leave. I inferred (if it was not stated outright) that 'of value' could mean technology, and not necessarily slaves to be eventually turned into the first Collectors.General User wrote...
Arijharn wrote...
How do you know implicitly that the Reapers haven't advanced between wiping out the Protheans 50,000 years ago and the next upcoming purge though?
I suppose I don’t, I was drawing a conclusion based on the marked similarities between the derelict Reaper, Sovereign (who claimed to be quite old himself), the Collectors, and the Reaper larvae, none of which feature any markedly different tactics or technologies. A slow firing main gun and ultra-powerful kinetic barriers and armour, labour provided by indoctrinated organics and husks.
Did you reach a different conclusion?
He said...
I said...
The issue however is not so much that we can't understand Reaper tech after they arrive, but rather now is the best time to do what we can. Everyone building super railguns that can destroy the Reapers like the derelict is probably not a workable solution within an unknown timeframe.
True enough, the timeframe of the Reaper arrival is unknown. But, since the timeframe is indeed unknown, who’s to say what does and does not fit in it?
That's true, however... we know that not even Dreadnought firepower can breach the Reaper's defences (take the renegade dialogue choice at the Derelict Reaper after Joker radios you) so atm we are at a technological disadvantage.
My, and others points are basically because we are at a disadvantage, then we must put aside morality for the good of the whole. Any technological advantage we gain could be of benefit. I essentially break it down to this:
Say humanity (and thus Citadel space) technological level is at 30 or at base.
Lets say Collector technology is base + 15.
If we get Collector technology then we'll be at 45, which is obviously better than what we were at before.
Basically, the fact is with Collector technology we know we'd be at a greater state of readiness rather than a 'maybe' if we just build super railguns.
General User said...
And what happens once the Reapers get here? A “scortched-space” of destroying mass relays could seriously slow them. If we control or destroy the Citadel and the Reapers have to reconstruct the mass relays as they go, it could buy a lot of time.
Destruction of the Mass Relay's would have to be a super last resort. But we also would have to assume that it isn't essential to them moving around because we could infer that because they got here independent of the Citadel, then they are capable of moving fast (from dark space) independently. Which forces me to conclude that the destruction of the relay's would probably hamstring us more than it would them.
General User said...
Super rail guns may not be a workable solution in a very limited time frame or maybe they are, large scale mass accelerator weapons are the standard on warships, every space-faring species already constructs them. They are, however, a viable option for killing Reapers, though far from the only one.
See above with the Dreadnought comment. Any super railgun would have to be a dedicated construction at this point of time because Dreadnought firepower is inefficient. Additionally, even if Dreadnought firepower was, there are far too few dreadnoughts atm to mount any decent defense.
I do however see your point, but I think it's too much of a 'maybe' to put credibly as a front line response.
