2146 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

Arijharn wrote...

But why can you not seem to realise that the Reapers already 'have a foothold' when everyone is already dependent on their technology?

We use mass accelerator weaponry (interesting story, the US Navy is already trialling this weapon system in essence)
We are dependent on the Mass Relays to travel from point to point
We are dependent on the Citadel for our political and economic futures
Hell, biotics were probably purposely introduced by the Reapers via understanding of eezo exposure effects in organic nervous tissue (isn't it amazing how eezo can effect all species in pretty much the same way (biotic manifestation) from it? That seems less likely statistically speaking than the majority of intelligent lifeforms growing to be bipedal humanoids)

Given that it is much easier to adapt existing technology than creating brand new ones from scratch, and considering we already know that current dreadnought firepower is insufficient to breach Reaper shield technology (renegade statement on the Reaper derelict when Joker informs you that you've been cut off) then it would require a massive boost quickly in order to even try to reach parity with the Reapers.

It just can not be that the CB represents some sort of technological trap (although meta-gaming wise it wont offer too much advantage, nor will it automatically screw over every 'renegade' who chose it, or even paragon.) because of it's remoteness. Who's to say that the STG are any more trustful than Cerberus? Who's to say that the Turian Hierarchy is any more trustful than Cerberus?

I want to get along with them as well, but the STG did make the Genophage, and the Turian's did deploy it, what's to say that they don't deploy the Collector based weapons with any less zeal than what you assume TIM will?

Explain to me how giving them an Avatar is a good idea. 

Stating that they already have a foothold implies that adding another one is a non-issue. That's just preposterous. You are basically saying that because the Reapers already have footholds, that adding another will have no effect, even if that foothold could easily result in their return from darkspace. 

I'm not saying that the Hierarchy is any more trustworthy by definition, but both the STG and the Hierarchy understand the need for caution.  The Salarians view the Genophage as well as uplifting the Krogan with shame, and while the Hierarchy may not be the most subtle, I didn't suggest giving them the base.

Yes we need to better understand the Reapers, but so many of you keep countering me as if I deny keeping the base is a good idea.  I have already said I would keep the base, and you even quoted me, yet you are arguing as if I am being naive and denying the benefits of keeping the base.

[GuardianAngel470]

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


The salarians created the genophage as a threat against the krogan but the turians used it to end the war. They know what it means to conduct risky experiments as well as mitigating the risks.

Salarians are known for solving problems by creating bigger ones! I'll take Cerberus' track record, over the shady Salarians I met in game

That is true. However, if the salarians hadn't created the genophage, the reapers would have already come for the krogan and all sentient life would be dead. So did they create a bigger problem, or help solve the biggest of all?

No. Reapers only gun for technologically advanced species. The krogan wern't an advanced spacefearing species, and dealing with the fallout of a nuclear winter to boot. If the salarians didn't uplift them, the reapers wouldn't have bothered them, just like they didn't bother humanity 50,000 years ago. Besides, even if they advanced on their own, they wouldn't come for them any sooner than anyone else.

I have read that when you take Grunt with you and fight collectors, Harbinger says something to the effect of (wasted pontential). I conjecture that this means that when the krogans were uplifted, the reapers' agents viewed them as a good candidate for Reaperhood. Their great genetic redundancy and diversity ensured that they gained the attention of the Reapers, who were on the lookout for genetically unique people anyway.

[mosor]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


The salarians created the genophage as a threat against the krogan but the turians used it to end the war. They know what it means to conduct risky experiments as well as mitigating the risks.

Salarians are known for solving problems by creating bigger ones! I'll take Cerberus' track record, over the shady Salarians I met in game

That is true. However, if the salarians hadn't created the genophage, the reapers would have already come for the krogan and all sentient life would be dead. So did they create a bigger problem, or help solve the biggest of all?

No. Reapers only gun for technologically advanced species. The krogan wern't an advanced spacefearing species, and dealing with the fallout of a nuclear winter to boot. If the salarians didn't uplift them, the reapers wouldn't have bothered them, just like they didn't bother humanity 50,000 years ago. Besides, even if they advanced on their own, they wouldn't come for them any sooner than anyone else.

I have read that when you take Grunt with you and fight collectors, Harbinger says something to the effect of (wasted pontential). I conjecture that this means that when the krogans were uplifted, the reapers' agents viewed them as a good candidate for Reaperhood. Their great genetic redundancy and diversity ensured that they gained the attention of the Reapers, who were on the lookout for genetically unique people anyway.

Or it could just reference the fact that Collector tech was used to create Grunt.

[GuardianAngel470]

Arijharn wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

However, in previous threads I've posted tons of evidence on how it is likely to be an admission of his plans, and nobody was able to couter it other than "it seems to me that..."

Post this evidence again and maybe you'll win a convert.

Of-course I have suspicions that you have no evidence because an analysis of TIM's character is not going to be objective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride-and-ego_down
http://www.orange-pa...ml#lie_omission

None of that prove beyond reasonable doubt however that he was definitely thinking about making a Human Reaper. Could it be that he just didn't think the statement was serious?

Look at it this way. If he wasn't, then there is nothing to worry about.

But if he was, and you did nothing, those lives would be on your hands.

They're already in my hands because the Reapers are going to attack regardless

But for now they are in dark space. And on the off chance that TIM did decide to make a Reaper, those deaths could have been avoided.

You are stating that deaths that haven't happened are inevitable when there is no evidence to suggest it is. My evidence is that it takes millions of lives to make a reaper, so if TIM decided to do it, and he had the means, those deaths are inevitable. 

[Inverness Moon]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

But for now they are in dark space. And on the off chance that TIM did decide to make a Reaper, those deaths could have been avoided.

You are stating that deaths that haven't happened are inevitable when there is no evidence to suggest it is. My evidence is that it takes millions of lives to make a reaper, so if TIM decided to do it, and he had the means, those deaths are inevitable. 

Not only does TIM lack the means to create a reaper, but it is a waste of resources, and would just ****** a bunch of people off.

There is really no way TIM would do that, so I don't know why we're discussing it.

[GuardianAngel470]

Inverness Moon wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

But for now they are in dark space. And on the off chance that TIM did decide to make a Reaper, those deaths could have been avoided.

You are stating that deaths that haven't happened are inevitable when there is no evidence to suggest it is. My evidence is that it takes millions of lives to make a reaper, so if TIM decided to do it, and he had the means, those deaths are inevitable. 

Not only does TIM lack the means to create a reaper, but it is a waste of resources, and would just ****** a bunch of people off.

There is really no way TIM would do that, so I don't know why we're discussing it.

Me neither. My input to the other conversation was simply one of logic. 

[Arijharn]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Explain to me how giving them an Avatar is a good idea. 

I haven't read the books, so I'll leave that to someone who can actually take this and run with it.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Stating that they already have a foothold implies that adding another one is a non-issue. That's just preposterous. You are basically saying that because the Reapers already have footholds, that adding another will have no effect, even if that foothold could easily result in their return from darkspace.

I didn't mean to imply to you that I believe that this is the case, my point was that we'd need something remarkable to actually get off the 'foothold' by doing something that they didn't plan for, which is what I viewed the CB and it's assets.
I don't think that the CB was something that the Reapers expected to be found (and wouldn't be able to adversely affect short of when they arrive and if they get around to firing upon it with their own weapons) because
- It's principle defence is disguise, in a remote location, in an exceptionally hostile location, a normally unsafe relay and to top it all off, a certain amount of trepidation in a sense is connected to the Omega-4 relay itself anyway, with it been viewed with hope and suspicion, but everybody who has ever went there didn't live to tell about it (until now).
- They had no real defence short of a single Collector Cruiser and some Occuli. They didn't have an 'internal security' network
- The Reapers couldn't affect change on the superstructure itself as some part of trap because you'd think that it would have been done by the Reapers at least when the larva was under attack.

I'm not saying that the Hierarchy is any more trustworthy by definition, but both the STG and the Hierarchy understand the need for caution.  The Salarians view the Genophage as well as uplifting the Krogan with shame, and while the Hierarchy may not be the most subtle, I didn't suggest giving them the base.

If you're giving the Salarian's the base, then it would mean that you'd be giving the other species of the Council the base too. They're practically joined at the hip anyway (slight exaggeration).
I think because of the CB being the CB and the simple fact that it's essential to the survival of not just humanity (which would be their main focus imo) but everyone else too, then it would be inefficient of TIM to pull a Rael and get the team to 'bypass standard safety protocols' but I accept you might not agree with this. Basically, everything else that Cerberus has done seems to be able to be duplicated, from Teltin to Aite's Overlord project (in a sense), but the CB is truly unique... and if TIM stuff's it up, I'd get Shephard to kill him himself.
I'm not sure how you can equate Mordin or Maelon's opinions with the opinions of the Salarian's as a whole though.

Yes we need to better understand the Reapers, but so many of you keep countering me as if I deny keeping the base is a good idea.  I have already said I would keep the base, and you even quoted me, yet you are arguing as if I am being naive and denying the benefits of keeping the base.

I'm only arguing it as being 'naive' (I'm not actually, personally I just think it a bad decision) the fact that you offer so many caveats to who you co-operate with. It shouldn't really matter who that is, just as long as you get the expertise. The Council may be ideal, but the fact of the matter is that Shephard didn't get the choice despite your wishes, he got either TIM or death, and it's easier to absolve yourself of your sins if TIM gets it than everyone perishing because of someone's morality, which may not even be transferrable to other entities.
TIM leads a secretive organisation, he is not in the public limelight, so his actual capabilities of influencing public perception will never be total, because at the end of the day even if he wanted to wage war on another species to assure 'human dominance,' vast swaths of humanity itself would be opposed to the idea (quite possibly violently), not to mention the other species anyway.

Personally, I think people's reactions are like this (Mosor has his own awesome explanation):
It's kinda like aiming your shotgun at passerby's on the street who very well could be robbers, but to the point of ignoring cyborg ninja pirate robbers who are actually on your doormat.

[Sylvanas]

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

mosor wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


The salarians created the genophage as a threat against the krogan but the turians used it to end the war. They know what it means to conduct risky experiments as well as mitigating the risks.

Salarians are known for solving problems by creating bigger ones! I'll take Cerberus' track record, over the shady Salarians I met in game

That is true. However, if the salarians hadn't created the genophage, the reapers would have already come for the krogan and all sentient life would be dead. So did they create a bigger problem, or help solve the biggest of all?

No. Reapers only gun for technologically advanced species. The krogan wern't an advanced spacefearing species, and dealing with the fallout of a nuclear winter to boot. If the salarians didn't uplift them, the reapers wouldn't have bothered them, just like they didn't bother humanity 50,000 years ago. Besides, even if they advanced on their own, they wouldn't come for them any sooner than anyone else.

I have read that when you take Grunt with you and fight collectors, Harbinger says something to the effect of (wasted pontential). I conjecture that this means that when the krogans were uplifted, the reapers' agents viewed them as a good candidate for Reaperhood. Their great genetic redundancy and diversity ensured that they gained the attention of the Reapers, who were on the lookout for genetically unique people anyway.

Or it could just reference the fact that Collector tech was used to create Grunt.

“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”

[GuardianAngel470]

Arijharn wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Explain to me how giving them an Avatar is a good idea. 

I haven't read the books, so I'll leave that to someone who can actually take this and run with it.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Stating that they already have a foothold implies that adding another one is a non-issue. That's just preposterous. You are basically saying that because the Reapers already have footholds, that adding another will have no effect, even if that foothold could easily result in their return from darkspace.

I didn't mean to imply to you that I believe that this is the case, my point was that we'd need something remarkable to actually get off the 'foothold' by doing something that they didn't plan for, which is what I viewed the CB and it's assets.
I don't think that the CB was something that the Reapers expected to be found (and wouldn't be able to adversely affect short of when they arrive and if they get around to firing upon it with their own weapons) because
- It's principle defence is disguise, in a remote location, in an exceptionally hostile location, a normally unsafe relay and to top it all off, a certain amount of trepidation in a sense is connected to the Omega-4 relay itself anyway, with it been viewed with hope and suspicion, but everybody who has ever went there didn't live to tell about it (until now).
- They had no real defence short of a single Collector Cruiser and some Occuli. They didn't have an 'internal security' network
- The Reapers couldn't affect change on the superstructure itself as some part of trap because you'd think that it would have been done by the Reapers at least when the larva was under attack.

I'm not saying that the Hierarchy is any more trustworthy by definition, but both the STG and the Hierarchy understand the need for caution.  The Salarians view the Genophage as well as uplifting the Krogan with shame, and while the Hierarchy may not be the most subtle, I didn't suggest giving them the base.

If you're giving the Salarian's the base, then it would mean that you'd be giving the other species of the Council the base too. They're practically joined at the hip anyway (slight exaggeration).
I think because of the CB being the CB and the simple fact that it's essential to the survival of not just humanity (which would be their main focus imo) but everyone else too, then it would be inefficient of TIM to pull a Rael and get the team to 'bypass standard safety protocols' but I accept you might not agree with this. Basically, everything else that Cerberus has done seems to be able to be duplicated, from Teltin to Aite's Overlord project (in a sense), but the CB is truly unique... and if TIM stuff's it up, I'd get Shephard to kill him himself.
I'm not sure how you can equate Mordin or Maelon's opinions with the opinions of the Salarian's as a whole though.

Yes we need to better understand the Reapers, but so many of you keep countering me as if I deny keeping the base is a good idea.  I have already said I would keep the base, and you even quoted me, yet you are arguing as if I am being naive and denying the benefits of keeping the base.

I'm only arguing it as being 'naive' (I'm not actually, personally I just think it a bad decision) the fact that you offer so many caveats to who you co-operate with. It shouldn't really matter who that is, just as long as you get the expertise. The Council may be ideal, but the fact of the matter is that Shephard didn't get the choice despite your wishes, he got either TIM or death, and it's easier to absolve yourself of your sins if TIM gets it than everyone perishing because of someone's morality, which may not even be transferrable to other entities.
TIM leads a secretive organisation, he is not in the public limelight, so his actual capabilities of influencing public perception will never be total, because at the end of the day even if he wanted to wage war on another species to assure 'human dominance,' vast swaths of humanity itself would be opposed to the idea (quite possibly violently), not to mention the other species anyway.

Personally, I think people's reactions are like this (Mosor has his own awesome explanation):
It's kinda like aiming your shotgun at passerby's on the street who very well could be robbers, but to the point of ignoring cyborg ninja pirate robbers who are actually on your doormat.

I believe it does matter. As you haven't read the books, Cerberus proved me right in that they conducted a very risky experiment with very little regard to the consequences of failure. They created an Avatar for the Reapers, and had events not conspired against Cerberus, their Avatar creation could have gone on to activate the Citadel Relay.

This behavior I why I would only give the base to Anderson or possibly the Salarians. Both groups would have taken measures to mitigate the risks, unlike Cerberus.

I'm saying that it does matter who you give it to because depending on the party, you might do more harm than good.

[Arijharn]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
I believe it does matter. As you haven't read the books, Cerberus proved me right in that they conducted a very risky experiment with very little regard to the consequences of failure. They created an Avatar for the Reapers, and had events not conspired against Cerberus, their Avatar creation could have gone on to activate the Citadel Relay.

People say that's purely supposition. True, Cerberus didn't plan on the Turian's kicking down the door, but from what other people have said, the facility was secure beforehand (as in, things were progressing smoothly until the Turian's kicked down the door.
If that is true, then it's logical to assume that the experiment would have proceeded as plan, not that suddenly Grayson would hulksmash his way out.

This behavior I why I would only give the base to Anderson or possibly the Salarians. Both groups would have taken measures to mitigate the risks, unlike Cerberus.

Personally? I doubt they'd even do the experiment in the first place.

I'm saying that it does matter who you give it to because depending on the party, you might do more harm than good.

I know, but you didn't get the choice, so that's even more academic than our... well, academic debate!
My position is that people made their decision purely on emotional responses (deserving as they may be), but not prudent compared to what we know will happen.
Look, the man behind you may be holding a gun to your back, and yes it's wise to glance occasionally backwards to see what he's doing, but your perception shouldn't be focused so intently on that person behind you that you lose sight of that rhino that's charging you.

[Arijharn]

Not to mention that your backwards reasoning a decision that happens after the course of the game to rationalise events that happen during it.

[Lunatic LK47]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The base is a hugely valuable resource, but to use an analogy from Mordin himself, giving it to TIM is like giving nuclear weapons to Cave men.

Same reason I opt to blow up the base as well.

[Lunatic LK47]

mosor wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...


On the other hand, pretty much every attempt at studying Reaper tech has always resulted in disaster 8 out of 10 times. Everyone involved got indoctrinated, and the only two successful results re EDI and the Thanix Cannon, which isn't saying much. The Reapers are not morons either if we bothered keeping the base. They would just spring a trap or press a "self-destruct button" the second a research team enters the Collector base just to screw around with us, or they would just hack whatever we managed to reverse-engineer.

Acceptable risk, and if teams of Cerberus red shirts bite the bullet, then at least they died as heros doing something to stop the reapers rather than be killed by those same reapers while at home watching Vaenia.

What, the red shirts are heroes for learning that radiation poisoning (or the brain-washing equivalent) is irreversible and painful, regardless of it being it from items of Earth or alien origin? Doesn't discount that the Reapers would still screw over the research attempts, putting both paths on the same boat.

[lovgreno]

Arijharn wrote...
I know, but you didn't get the choice, so that's even more academic than our... well, academic debate!
My position is that people made their decision purely on emotional responses (deserving as they may be), but not prudent compared to what we know will happen.

The thing is we don't know what will happen. There are only things we fear will happen and things we hope will happen. As humans we will always be influenced by emotional responses wether we like it or not, this of course also includes TIMmy and Shepard. Some "debaters" (not you in my in my opinion) are of the opinion that their godlike superiour knowledge of the truth and the future means they have no such human weaknesses. Not much to do about that except ignore it I suppose. And please note that I didn't say that either side of thew base discussion can be superiour in this matter, there are only humans and no gods trying to debate for the different options (or both in my own case).

So it all comes down to wishfull thinking realy: Some Shepards wish that the base is no longer a threat if unexploded and wish that it will contain the sollution to most or all future problems. Some Shepards doesn't want to take the chance with that dangerous base and wish they will do fine anyway. Sometimes wishull thinking is all you got, like it or not.

[lovgreno]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

mosor wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...


On the other hand, pretty much every attempt at studying Reaper tech has always resulted in disaster 8 out of 10 times. Everyone involved got indoctrinated, and the only two successful results re EDI and the Thanix Cannon, which isn't saying much. The Reapers are not morons either if we bothered keeping the base. They would just spring a trap or press a "self-destruct button" the second a research team enters the Collector base just to screw around with us, or they would just hack whatever we managed to reverse-engineer.

Acceptable risk, and if teams of Cerberus red shirts bite the bullet, then at least they died as heros doing something to stop the reapers rather than be killed by those same reapers while at home watching Vaenia.

What, the red shirts are heroes for learning that radiation poisoning (or the brain-washing equivalent) is irreversible and painful, regardless of it being it from items of Earth or alien origin? Doesn't discount that the Reapers would still screw over the research attempts, putting both paths on the same boat.

Aslo it would be a shame if indoctrinated Cerberus redshirts started the reaper production again.

[Lunatic LK47]

lovgreno wrote...

Also it would be a shame if indoctrinated Cerberus redshirts started the reaper production again.

If I had a $100 bill, I'd be more than glad to give you one.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

mosor wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...


On the other hand, pretty much every attempt at studying Reaper tech has always resulted in disaster 8 out of 10 times. Everyone involved got indoctrinated, and the only two successful results re EDI and the Thanix Cannon, which isn't saying much. The Reapers are not morons either if we bothered keeping the base. They would just spring a trap or press a "self-destruct button" the second a research team enters the Collector base just to screw around with us, or they would just hack whatever we managed to reverse-engineer.

Acceptable risk, and if teams of Cerberus red shirts bite the bullet, then at least they died as heros doing something to stop the reapers rather than be killed by those same reapers while at home watching Vaenia.

What, the red shirts are heroes for learning that radiation poisoning (or the brain-washing equivalent) is irreversible and painful, regardless of it being it from items of Earth or alien origin? Doesn't discount that the Reapers would still screw over the research attempts, putting both paths on the same boat.

Aslo it would be a shame if indoctrinated Cerberus redshirts started the reaper production again.

How?

Indoctrination isn't magical. It has limits. The more it makes you go against what you want to do, the less capable you are of it. Add in that between 'smart' indoctrination (live Reapers, cybernetics like the Collectors have purpose-made for their genetic rewritten bodies), which are capable of subtle manipulation, and every indoctrination trap otherwise we have found has been 'dumb' indoctrination (making people fit only for husk fodder), how is any sort of indoctrination trap in a known, reachable location going to be able to resume Reaper productions without a cruiser to hold people, without possesible agents for the Harbringer effect, against any Cerberus counter-attack against the station? Small Cerberus cargo ships can't conquer entire colonies and fight off all threats.

If there is an indoctrination trap. If you don't go to means to get around it and eventually turn it off.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 octobre 2010 - 10:50 .

[GGRush]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

However, in previous threads I've posted tons of evidence on how it is likely to be an admission of his plans, and nobody was able to couter it other than "it seems to me that..."

Post this evidence again and maybe you'll win a convert.

Of-course I have suspicions that you have no evidence because an analysis of TIM's character is not going to be objective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride-and-ego_down
http://www.orange-pa...ml#lie_omission

None of that prove beyond reasonable doubt however that he was definitely thinking about making a Human Reaper. Could it be that he just didn't think the statement was serious?

Look at it this way. If he wasn't, then there is nothing to worry about.

But if he was, and you did nothing, those lives would be on your hands.

They're already in my hands because the Reapers are going to attack regardless

But for now they are in dark space. And on the off chance that TIM did decide to make a Reaper, those deaths could have been avoided.

You are stating that deaths that haven't happened are inevitable when there is no evidence to suggest it is. My evidence is that it takes millions of lives to make a reaper, so if TIM decided to do it, and he had the means, those deaths are inevitable. 

And on the off chance that there is information to defeat reaper easier within that base, and you destroy the base to make the repaer-war longer, those deaths will be on your hands. Arguing about future death is pointless. Even the best mathematician will find it i almost impossible(if not totally impossible) to simulate the number, and the importance of those "could be avoided" deaths.

[Arijharn]

But as a military commander it's your job to weigh things as emotionless as possible. If you have to place a rearguard you have to place the best possible person for the job, even if he's your best mate. Even martial arts instructors tell you (or at least, taught me) that if you find yourself in a fight you have to tactically plan, as you have a far greater chance to prevail if you fight to a strategy as opposed to swinging blindly.



Planning in the event of Cerberus cocking it up is possible, even prudent, but not to the expense of not utilizing the greatest chance we have against the Reapers. Dismissing a possibility due to this is just such a premature decision, it's like your purposely courting disaster on the basis of the unknown when you are quite well aware of a definite threat that is breathing down not just your neck, but everyone else's.



You didn't get to choose your benefactors, but you still have a benefactor, Cerberus has no chance of standing against the galaxy under any disguise or with any tool, I'm not so sure about the Reapers though...

[Ieldra]

Really, I don't know why people can't see that it doesn't matter what TIM will do with the base, as long as we get the intelligence we need from it. There are two worst-case scenarios:

(1) If the base does not contain vital intelligence about the Reapers and we keep it, then whatever price in Cerberus atrocities we'll pay for it will have been for nothing. But even if that causes millions of deaths, that doesn't matter because

(2) If the base does contain vital intelligence about the Reapers and we destroy it, then we will all die.

So basically, every single argument that has been brought against keeping the base rests on the assumption that the base, with 100% certainty, does not contain vital intelligence about the Reapers. Metagaming, we do know that's true, but if we stay in-world, we cannot afford that assumption because the alternative could be galaxy-wide extinction. It doesn't matter what TIM will do with the base because we cannot afford the risk of destroying it. We can, however, afford the risk of giving it to TIM.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 octobre 2010 - 11:47 .

[DarkSeraphym]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Really, I don't know why people can't see that it doesn't matter what TIM will do with the base, as long as we get the intelligence we need from it. There are two worst-case scenarios:

(1) If the base does not contain vital intelligence about the Reapers and we keep it, then whatever price in Cerberus atrocities we'll pay for it will have been for nothing. But even if that causes millions of deaths, that doesn't matter because

(2) If the base does contain vital intelligence about the Reapers and we destroy it, then we will all die.

So basically, every single argument that has been brought against keeping the base rests on the assumption that the base, with 100% certainty, does not contain vital intelligence about the Reapers. Metagaming, we do know that's true, but if we stay in-world, we cannot afford that assumption because the alternative could be galaxy-wide extinction. It doesn't matter what TIM will do with the base because we cannot afford the risk of destroying it. We can, however, afford the risk of giving it to TIM.

Wait, how did we find out from metagaming that there was nothing on the base of value with respect to the Reapers? It's a serious question, I don't recall missing anything in the game since I have played it so many times but I'd like to make sure I didn't miss anything.

As far as I know, at this moment in time anyways, the assumption that there is nothing vital on that base doesn't even have any justice in metagaming either. Nothing has been said, once again as far as I know, on whether or not anything is actually of value within that base for sure. I'm hoping there is, it would be rather anti-climactic to make a choice like that and have it essentially mean nothing in the scope of the game.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 06 octobre 2010 - 12:00 .

[philiposophy]

It's metagaming that there's nothing vital on the base because you'll still be able to beat ME3 even if you destroy the base. Now, in-game is a whole different matter, because Shepard has no way of knowing that s/he's the protagonist.

[Barquiel]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Wait, how did we find out from metagaming that there was nothing on the base of value with respect to the Reapers? It's a serious question, I don't recall missing anything in the game since I have played it so many times but I'd like to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Because of ME:Retribution...I think. TIM plays around with reaper tech, collector base or not.

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Wait, how did we find out from metagaming that there was nothing on the base of value with respect to the Reapers? It's a serious question, I don't recall missing anything in the game since I have played it so many times but I'd like to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Because of ME:Retribution...I think. TIM plays around with reaper tech, collector base or not.

That doesn't preclude anything. It's like saying if you blow up a gold mine but recover a nugget, it's the same as if you kept open the gold mine and its known reserves.

If you blew up the base, TIM searches the debris just as the Shadow Broker promised to. If you kept it, then there's a whole lot more besides what went into Grayson.

[Dean_the_Young]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Really, I don't know why people can't see that it doesn't matter what TIM will do with the base, as long as we get the intelligence we need from it. There are two worst-case scenarios:

(1) If the base does not contain vital intelligence about the Reapers and we keep it, then whatever price in Cerberus atrocities we'll pay for it will have been for nothing. But even if that causes millions of deaths, that doesn't matter because

(2) If the base does contain vital intelligence about the Reapers and we destroy it, then we will all die.

So basically, every single argument that has been brought against keeping the base rests on the assumption that the base, with 100% certainty, does not contain vital intelligence about the Reapers. Metagaming, we do know that's true, but if we stay in-world, we cannot afford that assumption because the alternative could be galaxy-wide extinction. It doesn't matter what TIM will do with the base because we cannot afford the risk of destroying it. We can, however, afford the risk of giving it to TIM.

Wait, how did we find out from metagaming that there was nothing on the base of value with respect to the Reapers? It's a serious question, I don't recall missing anything in the game since I have played it so many times but I'd like to make sure I didn't miss anything.

As far as I know, at this moment in time anyways, the assumption that there is nothing vital on that base doesn't even have any justice in metagaming either. Nothing has been said, once again as far as I know, on whether or not anything is actually of value within that base for sure. I'm hoping there is, it would be rather anti-climactic to make a choice like that and have it essentially mean nothing in the scope of the game.

Look on the bright side: if there's no high technology in the base, there's nothing for TIM to abuse. So the whole 'TIM can't get any gains from the base' also means 'TIM can't use non-existent gains to enslave the galaxy.'

Or, alternatively alternatively, the galaxy is doomed to Cerberus domination regardless: if destroying the base was irrelevant to Cerberus gaining Reaper technology, and yet with the Base Cerberus would be able to dominate the galaxy...

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 octobre 2010 - 12:54 .