2146 réponses à ce sujet

[jbblue05]

scotchtape622 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Cerberus attack on the Flotilla is a 100% the Quarian captain Y'sin Mal' fault.
He knowingly harbored Cerberbus fugitives, he knew Cerberus would come for them,
he accepted the risks knowing that he would put his ship and the entire Flotilla at risk.
He could've easily escorted Gillian, Hendel, and Kahlee to the Citadel or an Alliance Station but chose to put everybody at risk

I'm not sure about if Cerberus commandoes were killing civillians but I know Golo the Quarian was killing civillians as an act of revenge for his exile and I know Golo was arming the bomb.

Are you really a big enough of a Cerberus groupie to convince yourself that?

Because its true and is supported by Mass Effect Ascension.

What's your version?

The same story, but you are blaming the victim here. Should Western nations not do what they think is right because they are afraid of terrorist attacks? Do we let evil men change the way we behave?

"They just gave her some medication, which greatly enhanced her biotic powers... "

They gave her drugs that made her autism worst, and that was when she wasn't in a position to be fully controlled. Once kidnapped by Cerberus, their experiments wouldn't have to be hindered by the government, and her life would become worse than Jack's childhood. Especially since she would obviously resist.

Your missing the part that the Quarians could've easily avoided this problem.
Besides discarding the Cerberus shuttle they kept it making it easier for Cerberus to track them.
Gillian, Hendel, and Gillian shouldn't have been kept on the Idenna they should have been escorted elsewhere.

I have sympathy for victims who unknowingly put themselves in danger.
But the Quarians accepted the risks and wanted to make themselves targets for Cerberus so I have no sympathy for them.
Terrorism is something you can't avoid but the Quarians COULD have avoided this problem.
Cerberus and the Flotilla have no bad blood prior to the attack on the Idenna.


I don't see how Gillian's childhood is worse then Jack and Gillian had the "safe medications" that were used on Jack so Gillian didn't have to suffer.
Gillian did become a powerful biotic which is a success

[scotchtape622]

"Your missing the part that the Quarians could've easily avoided this problem.

Besides discarding the Cerberus shuttle they kept it making it easier for Cerberus to track them.

Gillian, Hendel, and Gillian shouldn't have been kept on the Idenna they should have been escorted elsewhere.



I have sympathy for victims who unknowingly put themselves in danger.

But the Quarians accepted the risks and wanted to make themselves targets for Cerberus so I have no sympathy for them.

Terrorism is something you can't avoid but the Quarians COULD have avoided this problem.

Cerberus and the Flotilla have no bad blood prior to the attack on the Idenna."



Terrorism is something you can avoid. The United States would never be attacked again if they stopped supporting the state of Israel and pulled their military presence from the Middle East. But they don't, because they believe they are morally correct.



Blaming the Quarians for doing what is morally right instead of blaming Cerberus who attacked them is pure idiocy. Its like blaming Ashley for Kaiden's death or blaming Joker for the Collector attack. The blame lies solely on the person who did the deed.



" I don't see how Gillian's childhood is worse then Jack and Gillian had the "safe medications" that were used on Jack so Gillian didn't have to suffer.

Gillian did become a powerful biotic which is a success"



I'm not saying her childhood was worse, I am saying that if Cerberus got their hands on her it would be a lot worse then it was before.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Oh gosh...

Whether or not it went rouge, it is clear that TIM approved the kidnapping of children for experimentation, which is off the ethical charts. And you just "countered" a tiny part of my statement, ignoring the rest of it.

Not necessarily.  Most of those kids came from Batarian Pirates.  For all we know, TIM could've just bought some from poor families (which is one way the kids got there) while the cells did the shadier deals for replacing thier dead failed test subjects (such as kidnapping).  This all of course would be swept under the rug away from TIM's eyes.

Just possibilities.


Also, while I'm trying to make a point for Keeping the base, Paragons are Bioware's approved choice.  That shouldn't be an issue.  No matter what happens, things tend to work out the best making a Paragon choice.  We're not discussing that part, lets try stay on topic to realistic implications of keeping/destroying the base outside of the metagaming classes of Paragon and Renegade.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 06 octobre 2010 - 11:15 .

[scotchtape622]

Jack wasn't though, she has taken from her mother, if I remember the SB Dossier correctly.

[jbblue05]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Oh gosh...

Whether or not it went rouge, it is clear that TIM approved the kidnapping of children for experimentation, which is off the ethical charts. And you just "countered" a tiny part of my statement, ignoring the rest of it.

I don't see how it proves TIM approved of the kidnappings but whatever helps fuel your anger of Cerberus being evil.

We do know most kids were bought from Batarian slavers, kidnapped, bought from poor families, TIM shut down the Teltin Facility, we know Jack's mom was lied to to keep Jack.

What happened on the Teltin Facility was unethical

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Right, some were kidnapped. The kids were brought there different ways. There's no telling which way(s) were specifically recommended or used by TIM.

[jbblue05]

Terrorism is something you can avoid. The United States would never be attacked again if they stopped supporting the state of Israel and pulled their military presence from the Middle East. But they don't, because they believe they are morally correct.

Blaming the Quarians for doing what is morally right instead of blaming Cerberus who attacked them is pure idiocy. Its like blaming Ashley for Kaiden's death or blaming Joker for the Collector attack. The blame lies solely on the person who did the deed.

I'm not saying her childhood was worse, I am saying that if Cerberus got their hands on her it would be a lot worse then it was before.[/quote]


So your telling me 9/11 could've been avoided?   Terrorism can't be stopped it still happens all over the world. You can onlyhope to minimize terrorism.

What's pure idiotic is fighting a battle that's not yours.  The morally right thing is the dumbest and unneccesary thing to do. The Alliance could've protected them just as fine.
I blame Bioware for Shepard's death.  Why would I blame Ash I told her to leave, why would I blame Joker I chose to rescue him.

The blame lies solely on Captain Y'sin Mal  Cerberus would've never done the "deed" if he didn't let his arrogance get the best of him. 

Its supposition to believe Gillian's life would be worse but we'll never find out unless Cerberus locates her which is unlikely

[scotchtape622]

"So your telling me 9/11 could've been avoided? "



Yep, if we had given into Bin Laden's demands.



"I blame Bioware for Shepard's death. Why would I blame Ash I told her to leave, why would I blame Joker I chose to rescue him."



What? I said blame Ash for Kaiden's death, or Joker for the destruction of the Normandy. Not for the death of Shepard.



"The blame lies solely on Captain Y'sin Mal Cerberus would've never done the "deed" if he didn't let his arrogance get the best of him. "



So is a rape victim at fault for being attractive? Is a police officer at fault for enforcing the law?



Why do I argue with you? Your ethical compass is way off.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Miranda was taken in by Cerberus... her life doesn't seem to be in ruin or anything... just saying.

[scotchtape622]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Miranda was taken in by Cerberus... her life doesn't seem to be in ruin or anything... just saying.

That is a terrible comparison. Miranda voluntarilly joined Cerberus and become an officer. Cerberus is trying to kidnap Gillian and turn her into a test subject.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Miranda was taken in by Cerberus... her life doesn't seem to be in ruin or anything... just saying.

That is a terrible comparison. Miranda voluntarilly joined Cerberus and become an officer. Cerberus is trying to kidnap Gillian and turn her into a test subject.

Cerberus came to her.  She didn't go to Cerberus.

[scotchtape622]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Miranda was taken in by Cerberus... her life doesn't seem to be in ruin or anything... just saying.

That is a terrible comparison. Miranda voluntarilly joined Cerberus and become an officer. Cerberus is trying to kidnap Gillian and turn her into a test subject.

Cerberus came to her.  She didn't go to Cerberus.

So? Companies will often "recruit" possible employees, but they don't kidnap them.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Her father was going to take her back to Cerberus before he changed his mind about them. That's one of the main reasons he went there.  It's not quite kidnapping when her father is partially why she's there.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 06 octobre 2010 - 11:51 .

[scotchtape622]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Her father was going to take her back to Cerberus before he changed his mind about them. That's one of the main reasons he went there.

Your point?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

It's not quite kidnapping when her father is partially why she's there.

[scotchtape622]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

It's not quite kidnapping when her father is partially why she's there.

lol, it doesn't matter, because even after the father stops giving consent, Cerberus still tries to take her.

[jbblue05]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Yep, if we had given into Bin Laden's demands.

We don't negotiate with terrorists

What? I said blame Ash for Kaiden's death, or Joker for the destruction of the Normandy. Not for the death of Shepard.

Why would I blame anybody I had the choice.  I blame the Collectors for the destruction of the Normandy

So is a rape victim at fault for being attractive? Is a police officer at fault for enforcing the law?

I don't see how a rape victim has anything to do with the attack on the flotilla but I will play this game with you.

If the rape victim knew he/she were going to place that had rapists its the rape victim's fault for going their.with prior knowledge of what's going to happen
Other then that the rape victim is  innocent.

If you willingly harbor someone on the run from the mafia.  Then the mafia finds the person their looking for in your house and kills one of your family members.  Do you blame the mafia for you family members death or do you blame yourself for putting your family in danger?

Why do I argue with you? Your ethical compass is way off.

You have no idea of my ethical compass.
 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

---posted below===

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 octobre 2010 - 12:01 .

[scotchtape622]

"We don't negotiate with terrorists"

If we did 9/11 wouldn't have happened.

Cerberus is a terrorist group. Should the Quarians avoid doing the right thing because they are afraid?

"If the rape victim knew he/she were going to place that had rapists its the rape victim's fault for going their.with prior knowledge of what's going to happen
Other then that the rape victim is innocent. "

lol, wow.

"If you willingly harbor someone on the run from the mafia. Then the mafia finds the person their looking for in your house and kills one of your family members. Do you blame the mafia for you family members death or do you blame yourself for putting your family in danger?"

Easy, you blame the mafia. They pulled the trigger, not you.

"You have no idea of my ethical compass."

I have enough of an idea from your recent posts to see it is ridiculous.

"I think they wanted to, but to my knowledge he didn't upon getting Grayson's ultimatum."

Yes, but Grayson didn't want them to get her during the time she was on the Migrant Fleet, and they still attacked.

Modifié par scotchtape622, 07 octobre 2010 - 12:00 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

They may have wanted to, but to my knowledge he didn't try to get her upon getting Grayson's ultimatum/resignation/defection message.



For the record, TIM was kept completely out of the loop of what was going on at that point. He thought Grayson had been killed until he finally showed up with a threat and resignation.

[scotchtape622]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

They may have wanted to, but to my knowledge he didn't try to get her upon getting Grayson's ultimatum/resignation/defection message.

For the record, TIM was kept completely out of the loop of what was going on at that point. He thought Grayson had been killed until he finally showed up with a threat and resignation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping

In criminal law, kidnapping is the taking away or transportation of a person against the person's will, usually to hold the person in false imprisonment, a confinement without legal authority. This may be done for ransom or in furtherance of another crime, or in connection with a child custody dispute.

It is still kidnapping.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Literally speaking, they were all kidnapping her if she didn't want to initially go. Even if she came to like it later.


As a reminder though, no one is arguing whether TIM is to be trusted or not.  The real question is could what he does help in beating the Reapers?  So far it already has.  Also what TIM himself has done is not as dark or overblown as all he's accused of doing.  To what degree still though remains to be seen.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 octobre 2010 - 12:09 .

[scotchtape622]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Literally speaking, they were all kidnapping her if she didn't want to initially go. Even if she came to like it later.

Your point? It is pretty clear that she wouldn't be happy as a test subject, no human would.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

No kid likes going to the hospital even if it's to make them better. Especially if the hospital makes a mistake along the way.  ie) medicine has side effects to go with the successful benefits.  You'd hope though that upon catching it they optimize for the better.  Cerberus would obviously want her strong...

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 octobre 2010 - 12:12 .

[scotchtape622]

lol, once again you make a terrible comparison.



Look at Jack (who, while the other kids were not treated the way TIM wanted, it seems that she was treated by protocol). Do you think she is "better off" by going to the "hospital?" No, she was emotionally destroyed and she has murdered many people because of it. Imagine what will happen to Gillian, someone who is already mentally sick.



Also, hospitals have the interests of the child at heart, Cerberus doesn't care about her as a person, just as a resource. The hospital is also paid to make the patient happy, Cerberus doesn't care about her happiness.