2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Finding a way to counter indoctrination is of upmost importance in my mind. Getting through Reaper shielding would be second to that.

[scotchtape622]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Finding a way to counter indoctrination is of upmost importance in my mind. Getting through Reaper shielding would be second to that.

Then we have strategically different minds.

Maybe a certain Asari scientist could help us with that though.

[jbblue05]

Arijharn wrote...

Did the Ascension even fire at Sovereign? Or were they too busy going: "Mommmy! I have the Council onboard, don't hurt meee!"

I guess shield technology is only rated to prevent certain speeds and/or 'weights,' like it can protect against 'conventional' weapons but a planet-cracking railgun might be beyond it's capabilities.

I wonder why Sovereign didn't attack the largest and most dangerous warship the Ascension

[jbblue05]

So if you believe TIM is trying to build a Reaper

wouldn't you believe he's going to use the Accelerator weapon to attack other races.



Building a Reaper is highly unlikely while the Accelerator weapon is more likely

[DarkSeraphym]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Well, EDI said that Reapers shields were practically impervious to Dreadnought fire.

EDIT:

Seraphym, that doesn't change the simple fact that the was a picture of a Reaper, in the game, and Shepard was looking at it.

A smile has room for interpretation. A datapad with clear photographs does not.

I never said it did. I'm not saying Shepard didn't see a datapad with a picture of a Reaper on it in the game. In fact, I have mentioned several times that Shepard saw a datapad with a picture of a Reaper on it in the game. However what you and I do not agree upon is what him seeing that datapad truly means. A common assumption I have seen over and over again on this thread is that if Shepard saw a picture of a Reaper, that must mean that EDI pulled it from the Collector Base and thus we can assume she pulled other useful data. You have not made this similar mistake, but others have even gone as far as to say it is reason enough to blow up the Collector Base because it means they got the data they wanted anyways.

What I am trying to get across is that all we know is that Shepard saw a picture of a Reaper and nothing more. The game doesn't acknowledge any other significance to that datapad than the fact that it was simply a picture of a Reaper covered in what looks like words and nothing else. There is no dialogue to confirm any significance to it, otherwise I would think BioWare would have opted to do so. Likewise, there is never any reference to it again after the game is over. So, in the end, we all saw a picture of a Reaper on a datapad, but there isn't really a whole lot of room to infer much beyond that within the context of the game.

[GuardianAngel470]

jbblue05 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Did the Ascension even fire at Sovereign? Or were they too busy going: "Mommmy! I have the Council onboard, don't hurt meee!"

I guess shield technology is only rated to prevent certain speeds and/or 'weights,' like it can protect against 'conventional' weapons but a planet-cracking railgun might be beyond it's capabilities.

I wonder why Sovereign didn't attack the largest and most dangerous warship the Ascension

Because the Ascension was crewed by Pansies who couldn't even take a shot with their gigantic mass accelerator.

The turians did something, even if they failed. The asari just sat there and waited to get blown to shreds.

[scotchtape622]

jbblue05 wrote...

So if you believe TIM is trying to build a Reaper
wouldn't you believe he's going to use the Accelerator weapon to attack other races.

Building a Reaper is highly unlikely while the Accelerator weapon is more likely

Yes, but building a Reaper would already cause the murder of millions of people/aliens.

Also, like I said, the MAC would be much easier to destory.

I don't know how a Reaper works, it may be possible that it would join the others instead.

I also don't trust Cerberus when they work with Reaper tech, the only time I can think of it working out is EDI.


"I never said it did. I'm not saying Shepard didn't see a datapad with a
picture of a Reaper on it in the game. In fact, I have mentioned several
times that Shepard saw a datapad with a picture of a Reaper on it in
the game. However what you and I do not agree upon is what him seeing
that datapad truly means. A common assumption I have seen over and over
again on this thread is that if Shepard saw a picture of a Reaper, that
must mean that EDI pulled it from the Collector Base and thus we can
assume she pulled other useful data. You have not made this similar
mistake, but others have even gone as far as to say it is reason enough
to blow up the Collector Base because it means they got the data they
wanted anyways.

What I am trying to get across is that all we
know is that Shepard saw a picture of a Reaper and nothing more. The
game doesn't acknowledge any other significance to that datapad than the
fact that it was simply a picture of a Reaper covered in what looks
like words and nothing else. There is no dialogue to confirm any
significance to it, otherwise I would think BioWare would have opted to
do so. Likewise, there is never any reference to it again after the game
is over. So, in the end, we all saw a picture of a Reaper on a datapad,
but there isn't really a whole lot of room to infer much beyond that
within the context of the game."

We saw a Reaper on a datapad.

How did we get that picture?

The most logical conclusion is EDI getting files from the CB. Can you offer an alternative idea?

[Arijharn]

Sounds almost atypical of the Asari... no wait that's completely unfounded.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Finding a way to counter indoctrination is of upmost importance in my mind. Getting through Reaper shielding would be second to that.

Then we have strategically different minds.

Maybe a certain Asari scientist could help us with that though.

Guess we do, and that's a great idea regarding the Asari.  

The way I see it, if the Grayson incident happened en mass, Those Reaper-buster guns can be countered before their warranty expires.  Plus there is evidence that this approach was tried before and failed... possibly due to massive indoctrination that scattered the galactic alliance and broke their unity and organization through subversion, mutinies, and infiltrating ranks at a high level.

Just thinking about it, I think indoctrination is the Reaper's primary weapon... I doubt now that they won any of their previous battles solely through brute force. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

scotchtape622 wrote...

[We saw a Reaper on a datapad.

How did we get that picture?

The most logical conclusion is EDI getting files from the CB. Can you offer an alternative idea?

The Reapers had been found in dark space.  That image was exactly the same as the shot showing all of the Reapers a few seconds later.

[scotchtape622]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

scotchtape622 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Finding a way to counter indoctrination is of upmost importance in my mind. Getting through Reaper shielding would be second to that.

Then we have strategically different minds.

Maybe a certain Asari scientist could help us with that though.

Guess we do, and that's a great idea regarding the Asari.  

The way I see it, if the Grayson incident happened en mass, Those Reaper-buster guns can be countered before their warranty expires.  Plus there is evidence that this approach was tried before and failed... possibly due to massive indoctrination that scattered the galactic alliance and broke their unity and organization through subversion, mutinies, and infiltrating ranks at a high level.

Just thinking about it, I think indoctrination is the Reaper's primary weapon... I doubt now that they won any of their previous battles solely through brute force. 

You're correct here, but at the same time, because there are no Reapers currently in our Galaxy, it will be harder for them to indoctrinate people. From our knowledge, they have no "agents" remaining, exept for some random, mindless, Husks that may be scattered around the Galaxy.

It will be difficult for them to indoctrinate people now, because they are coming enmass and hopefully we will have convinced the Council by then.

EDIT:
That cinematic a few seconds later was no from Shep's perspective, just like a few moments in ME1 focused on Saren, while Shep wasn't there.

How could we get such great optical scans from dark space? And how would the Reapers not stop it? It is much more logical of a conclusion that it came from the CB IMO.

Modifié par scotchtape622, 07 octobre 2010 - 02:54 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

That's why Grayson is a really important note. Grayson proved that there's no telling. The Reapers can fully take over people and make them act like normal.

[Arijharn]

Lets say by some miracle in itself that TIM makes a Reaper despite all our assertions that it would be impossible, how would he control it? How could he ensure that Cerberus/TIM stays in command? Making super biotics is one thing, but a Reaper is another thing altogether.



Lets not also forget though, that any construction of a Reaper would have to be after the Reaper threat (it wouldn't make any sense to make a grab at power beforehand would it?) is over, and judging by the fact that I would imagine human casualties would be quite high afterwards (alongside every other race) than they could only afford to make one (including the limitations in size of Cerberus itself)... isn't the problem then that any veterans of the conflict would have a great deal of experience about them? Wouldn't that make the Reaper-that-TIM-built essentially 'just' a glorified Dreadnought and thus no more of a threat compared to say any other per say? Sovereign was a Reaper, Sovereign caught the navies of the Citadel with its pants down and was still destroyed by the Alliance fleet (after of course, heroics from Shephard).



Considering that we wont be able to fight Saren avatar's of each and every Reaper to momentarily weaken them sequentially so that an ace pilot can offer the coup de grace, we must therefore assume that either way we'd have the weaponry needed to destroy the vessels (assuming we don't herd them all by some miracle into supernovae or black holes ) by this time.



What I'm trying to say; even if TIM managed to do the reprehensible (and yes, I would consider creating a Reaper to be more reprehensible on the scale of reprehensible-ness in regards to creating super biotics out of children) any scheme from it would be destined to failure anyway, so it seems pointless to worry about that scenario.

[DarkSeraphym]

scotchtape622 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

So if you believe TIM is trying to build a Reaper
wouldn't you believe he's going to use the Accelerator weapon to attack other races.

Building a Reaper is highly unlikely while the Accelerator weapon is more likely

Yes, but building a Reaper would already cause the murder of millions of people/aliens.

Also, like I said, the MAC would be much easier to destory.

I don't know how a Reaper works, it may be possible that it would join the others instead.

I also don't trust Cerberus when they work with Reaper tech, the only time I can think of it working out is EDI.


"I never said it did. I'm not saying Shepard didn't see a datapad with a
picture of a Reaper on it in the game. In fact, I have mentioned several
times that Shepard saw a datapad with a picture of a Reaper on it in
the game. However what you and I do not agree upon is what him seeing
that datapad truly means. A common assumption I have seen over and over
again on this thread is that if Shepard saw a picture of a Reaper, that
must mean that EDI pulled it from the Collector Base and thus we can
assume she pulled other useful data. You have not made this similar
mistake, but others have even gone as far as to say it is reason enough
to blow up the Collector Base because it means they got the data they
wanted anyways.

What I am trying to get across is that all we
know is that Shepard saw a picture of a Reaper and nothing more. The
game doesn't acknowledge any other significance to that datapad than the
fact that it was simply a picture of a Reaper covered in what looks
like words and nothing else. There is no dialogue to confirm any
significance to it, otherwise I would think BioWare would have opted to
do so. Likewise, there is never any reference to it again after the game
is over. So, in the end, we all saw a picture of a Reaper on a datapad,
but there isn't really a whole lot of room to infer much beyond that
within the context of the game."

We saw a Reaper on a datapad.

How did we get that picture?

The most logical conclusion is EDI getting files from the CB. Can you offer an alternative idea?

Sure. EDI got files from the Collector Base. I'm not arguing EDI gettings files from the base, I am arguing what limits to assumptions we can make based upon what files are presented to us. Suppose that the Central Intelligence Agency were so secretive that we didn't even know what it's seal looked like. Then suppose that someone managed to hack into their network and present a picture of such a seal that we concluded was in fact the seal. Does this mean that this same person gained access to files discussing what truly happened with the Kennedy Assassination or concrete evidence on what Area 51 might actually be? Of course not. Why? The only information that this person has displayed to us is a photograph of what the seal looks like, nothing else was ever mentioned on what he gained. It doesn't seem very logical to assume that simply because someone was able to prove they did something, that they managed to gain access to every ounce of data included within that something.

Once again, all that we saw was a picture of a Reaper, which leads us to conclude that EDI got that data from the Collectors because it certainly doesn't look like Sovereign. Yet, that is all we can really conclude. EDI never mentioned after the game was over that she was able to datamine the entire Collector Base system. EDI never mentions any other relevant data she pulled from that base. All that we see is a photograph. Perhaps EDI lacked the time to collect all of the data on the base. Perhaps certain files had firewalls that not even EDI could get past. Perhaps EDI actually did get such files but lacks the capacity to decrypt them. We can create as many theories as we want, but I think it is illogical for some to suggest that blowing up the Collector Base will provide the tech that keeping it would have simply because EDI was able to get a picture of what a Reaper looks like.

[jbblue05]

scotchtape622 wrote...
Yes, but building a Reaper would already cause the murder of millions of people/aliens.


Also, like I said, the MAC would be much easier to destory.

I don't know how a Reaper works, it may be possible that it would join the others instead.

I also don't trust Cerberus when they work with Reaper tech, the only time I can think of it working out is EDI.

How would 150 Cerberus crew attack large colonies and homeworlds to get millions of people.
Seeker swarms? they were all killed iin the radiation blast
You can't just make any kind of reaper see the prothean reaper.
If anything continuing the human reaper makes more sense and they're aren't enough remote colonies left in the Terminus systems TIM would have to enter Alliance Space

You know the location of the CB and it isn't hard to destroy since you have the IFF to gain access to the CB
MAC is most likely mobile and Shepard might have to play cat and mouse to find it.

Modifié par jbblue05, 07 octobre 2010 - 02:57 .

[scotchtape622]

EDIT:

You guys are asking a lot of questions about "hows" and "whys" to Cerberus and TIM building a Reaper. I don't know, but I do know that TIM would do anything for a little more power, and I also know that they have the scientific abilitiy to bring a person back to life, something we thought to be impossible. I don't doubt that TIM could pull it off if he tried.

Modifié par scotchtape622, 07 octobre 2010 - 02:59 .

[Arijharn]

There was a thread probably a couple of weeks ago (by Dean I think) that postulated the theoretical limitations of Indoctrination. He divided it between smart Indoctrination (people like Saren) and those who eventually get zombified (like the Derelict Reaper).



Basically, my pet theory is that Indoctrination is only really effective in atmosphere environments, if it happens in space it's only in breachs of controlled environments (say; a device is placed inside a space station or warship) so theoretically short of a ship getting punctured by Reaper minion boarding teams (in which case they'd have more pressing things to worry about) Indoctrination in space, particularly in a conflict seems to be a non-issue... unless evidence to the contrary is discovered.

[RiouHotaru]

My guess is that the datapad will be what Paragons will use because they destroyed the base. The information stored in their servers is what we're really after anyway, right? Renegades keep the base, so they have all the information they need. Meanwhile, Paragons have the information data-mined, which means they can destroy the base and STILL have the relevant information they need to win in ME3.



Everybody wins.

[DarkSeraphym]

RiouHotaru wrote...

My guess is that the datapad will be what Paragons will use because they destroyed the base. The information stored in their servers is what we're really after anyway, right? Renegades keep the base, so they have all the information they need. Meanwhile, Paragons have the information data-mined, which means they can destroy the base and STILL have the relevant information they need to win in ME3.

Everybody wins.

I'd be content with this. Both sides are happy regardless. However, I doubt the weakness in the construction of the Reapers is actually going to be found from that base. It seems rather, anticlimactic. I mean it certainly is a possibility, but as a Renegade player I keep getting the vibe everytime I opt to keep that base that what is going to be done with is the creation of some sort of weapon to use against the Reapers that will also, in turn, be used to answer a question that jbblue proposed on a separate thread on how humanity is going to maintain power against the other races. I mean it certainly is a longshot, but all of the characters foreshadow that base being used for a darker purpose after the Reaper threat is over by condemning me for opting to keep it.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 07 octobre 2010 - 03:56 .

[Inverness Moon]

RiouHotaru wrote...

My guess is that the datapad will be what Paragons will use because they destroyed the base. The information stored in their servers is what we're really after anyway, right? Renegades keep the base, so they have all the information they need. Meanwhile, Paragons have the information data-mined, which means they can destroy the base and STILL have the relevant information they need to win in ME3.

Everybody wins.

It wouldn't make me happy to find out that my choice was insignificant to BioWare. I will be highly disappointed if the collector base doesn't have a significant impact on how the war effort goes.

I'll bring up my suggestions about that again:

Paragons are all about galactic unity most of the time and are often too idealistic when it comes to the collector base, so the outcome should reflect that by having about 70-90% of galactic civilization be eradicated by the reapers. Then after everything is over, people will decide to work together to rebuild, they'll be closer then ever before, etc. They'll have their galactic unity, but perhaps not in the way they intended.

For renegades, there would be less casualties due to technology from the base, 20-40%, while humanity continues on as the dominant force in the galaxy. If the Council is all-human then their power is cemented and race relations could improve or deteriorate depending on the actions of Shepard and his influences with others.

Your relations with the rachni, geth, and krogan would also have an impact on the outcome and casualty count.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 07 octobre 2010 - 04:09 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Arijharn wrote...

There was a thread probably a couple of weeks ago (by Dean I think) that postulated the theoretical limitations of Indoctrination. He divided it between smart Indoctrination (people like Saren) and those who eventually get zombified (like the Derelict Reaper).

Basically, my pet theory is that Indoctrination is only really effective in atmosphere environments, if it happens in space it's only in breachs of controlled environments (say; a device is placed inside a space station or warship) so theoretically short of a ship getting punctured by Reaper minion boarding teams (in which case they'd have more pressing things to worry about) Indoctrination in space, particularly in a conflict seems to be a non-issue... unless evidence to the contrary is discovered.

Grayson somewhat disproves this.  The Reapers can take over completely.. where every action is theirs.  The thoughts of the host become irrelevant and the body and voice only obey the Reapers.  They're also able to read their host's memories... making it all the more dangerous should it happen to someone in high military or political standing.

As a mega form of nanite is the cause of this, the environment would be irrelevant as long as it can feasably make contact with the host.

Further still, this result is from an embryo-level, barely functional baby Reaper.  It'd be reasonable to expect a full-grown and active Reaper to be more potent than even this.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 octobre 2010 - 04:06 .

[DarkSeraphym]

Inverness Moon wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

My guess is that the datapad will be what Paragons will use because they destroyed the base. The information stored in their servers is what we're really after anyway, right? Renegades keep the base, so they have all the information they need. Meanwhile, Paragons have the information data-mined, which means they can destroy the base and STILL have the relevant information they need to win in ME3.

Everybody wins.

It wouldn't make me happy to find out that my choice was insignificant to BioWare. I will be highly disappointed if the collector base doesn't have a significant impact on how the war effort goes.

Personally, I'm hoping whatever is pulled out of that base is something I can turn on the other races when all is said and done. I put humanity in power, I want to keep that power unopposed.

[tommyt_1994]

After quite a bit of thinking on my part, I've come to the conclusion that saving the CB is the best option. My Shepard is a Spectre in ME2, spectre's agree to maintain galactic stability and to make necessary sacrifices when the time arises. Spectre's do the dirty work to keep the galaxy running. Saving the collector base is likely to provide some info on the reapers whether it be how to destroy them or how to defend yourself against them. Stopping galactic extinction is certainly in the galaxy's best interest correct? My Shep despises Cerberus, but he doesn't let his own morals get in the way of making the logical choice.

When I entered this thread I was a down to earth, "Screw Cerberus I'll do it on my own" type. so credit to many of the people who debate here often to save the CB like smudboy and mosor (though I don't always agree with you guys) as well as others. Yes there are open-minded people here smudboy, no need to go looking for the flux capicitor. 16 year old one's to boot.

What I touched on in regards to why I keep the base, I expand on in this thread and I'd appreciate it if you guys, CB supporters and destroyers alike, would check it out. It touches on some of the very topics and points made here, but it isn't directly CB related so I made a new thread. Just thought some of you would be interested.


http://social.biowar...5/index/4974795

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 07 octobre 2010 - 04:12 .

[Inverness Moon]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

After quite a bit of thinking on my part, I've come to the conclusion that saving the CB is the best option. My Shepard is a Spectre in ME2, spectre's agree to maintain galactic stability and to make necessary sacrifices when the time arises. Spectre's do the dirty work to keep the galaxy running. Saving the collector base is likely to provide some info on the reapers whether it be how to destroy them or how to defend yourself against them. Stopping galactic extinction is certainly in the galaxy's best interest correct? My Shep despises Cerberus, but he doesn't let his own morals get in the way of making the logical choice.

When I entered this thread I was a down to earth, "Screw Cerberus I'll do it on my own" type. so credit to many of the people who debate here often to save the CB like smudboy and mosor (though I don't always agree with you guys) as well as others.

What I touched on in regards to why i keep the base, I expand on in this thread and I'd appreciate it if you guys, CB supporters and destroyers alike, would check it out. It touches on some of the very topics and points made here, but it isn't directly CB related so I made a new thread. Just thought some of you would be interested.


http://social.biowar...5/index/4974795

Welcome to the dark side. 

[tommyt_1994]

[/quote]Welcome to the dark side. [/quote]

^^^ I considered myself an extreme Paragon until recently, if you look at the thread I linked I realized through the writing out of my thoughts that I'm quite the renegade. Interesting . I blame many of you here by the way

Edit: quoting mishap

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 07 octobre 2010 - 04:15 .