2146 réponses à ce sujet

[lovgreno]

Arijharn wrote...
What I'm trying to say; even if TIM managed to do the reprehensible (and yes, I would consider creating a Reaper to be more reprehensible on the scale of reprehensible-ness in regards to creating super biotics out of children) any scheme from it would be destined to failure anyway, so it seems pointless to worry about that scenario.

Yes TIM is a very smart man and a homemade reaper sounds like the pipe dream of pipe dreams. So I doubt Cerberus would do anything that stupid. A Cerberus indoctrinated by the base (CAN happen) on the other hand might be lead to belive a new reaper baby is the only way to save humanity. Remember what happened with Saren and Benezia.

[DarkSeraphym]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

 I considered myself an extreme Paragon until recently, if you look at the thread I linked I realized through the writing out of my thoughts that I'm quite the renegade. Interesting . I blame many of you here by the way

Edit: quoting mishap

It's funny really, I considered myself a Renegade the whole time but as of late, the reason I keep playing Renegade isn't for the reason I started in the first place. Originally, I was a Renegade because I felt like a lot of the Renegade choices in Mass Effect made the most sense. I didn't feel like the Rachni could be trusted, I felt like Wrex's display of not carrying out orders made him dangerous, and I felt like there was no sense in wasting resources saving a single ship simply because of 3 important people on it.

However, as I played through Mass Effect 2, I started playing the Renegade out of an interest to see where the story is next going to take me. This is one of the few games, in my opinion at least, that keeps "darker" approaches to problems interesting, especially when they have ulterior motives of keeping humanity in power. After playing Lair of the Shadow Broker and seeing the dossier on Cerberus and some of the things it has done to further it's aims such as Operation TRAPDOOR and I want to see how far they are willing to go. Don't get me wrong, I'd end up making the Renegade choices anyways because they are more in tune with my line of thinking, but I find myself actually liking the way the story is playing out as a Renegade.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 07 octobre 2010 - 04:22 .

[tommyt_1994]

^I consider myself a renegon I guess. I'm willing to make the hard calls when necessary, but my Shep will still help people just for the sake of helping and won't be a d*ck to everyone for no reason.

But this is kind of off topic so I'm going to end it here unless CB discussion is the topic.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 07 octobre 2010 - 04:32 .

[RiouHotaru]

Inverness Moon wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

My guess is that the datapad will be what Paragons will use because they destroyed the base. The information stored in their servers is what we're really after anyway, right? Renegades keep the base, so they have all the information they need. Meanwhile, Paragons have the information data-mined, which means they can destroy the base and STILL have the relevant information they need to win in ME3.

Everybody wins.

It wouldn't make me happy to find out that my choice was insignificant to BioWare. I will be highly disappointed if the collector base doesn't have a significant impact on how the war effort goes.

I'll bring up my suggestions about that again:

Paragons are all about galactic unity most of the time and are often too idealistic when it comes to the collector base, so the outcome should reflect that by having about 70-90% of galactic civilization be eradicated by the reapers. Then after everything is over, people will decide to work together to rebuild, they'll be closer then ever before, etc. They'll have their galactic unity, but perhaps not in the way they intended.

For renegades, there would be less casualties due to technology from the base, 20-40%, while humanity continues on as the dominant force in the galaxy. If the Council is all-human then their power is cemented and race relations could improve or deteriorate depending on the actions of Shepard and his influences with others.

Your relations with the rachni, geth, and krogan would also have an impact on the outcome and casualty count.

Except in your scenario, Renegades get the better end of the bargain, Paragons get hosed.  Remember, Bioware has to make the consequences EQUAL for both sides.

[mosor]

lovgreno wrote...

Remember what happened with Saren and Benezia.

Bullets solved those problems.

Modifié par mosor, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:47 .

[mosor]

Shandepared wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

However, as I played through Mass Effect 2, I started playing the Renegade out of an interest to see where the story is next going to take me. This is one of the few games, in my opinion at least, that keeps "darker" approaches to problems interesting, especially when they have ulterior motives of keeping humanity in power. After playing Lair of the Shadow Broker and seeing the dossier on Cerberus and some of the things it has done to further it's aims such as Operation TRAPDOOR and I want to see how far they are willing to go. Don't get me wrong, I'd end up making the Renegade choices anyways because they are more in tune with my line of thinking, but I find myself actually liking the way the story is playing out as a Renegade.

Paragon is very cliche and predictable. We've seen it play out in countless narratives before. Renegade is more interesting and dramatic. We don't even know yet if it will work out in our favor or if Biowar will seek to punish us in the end.

I'm betting on a good butt pounding by a very large krogan for us renegades. That said, doing a playthrough where humanity is dominant, and the reapers defeated seems like a more challenging goal. As you also said. The drama and dialogue is also superior.

Modifié par mosor, 07 octobre 2010 - 06:05 .

[RiouHotaru]

mosor wrote...

I'm betting on a good butt pounding by a very large krogan for us renegades. That said, doing a playthrough where humanity is dominant, and the reapers defeated seems like a more challenging goal. As you also said. The drama and dialogue is also superior.

WELL NOW.  LOVELY IMAGERY THERE.

(Of course, knowing the internet...someone out there takes the statement minus the sarcasm...)

[mosor]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

My guess is that the datapad will be what Paragons will use because they destroyed the base. The information stored in their servers is what we're really after anyway, right? Renegades keep the base, so they have all the information they need. Meanwhile, Paragons have the information data-mined, which means they can destroy the base and STILL have the relevant information they need to win in ME3.

Everybody wins.

It wouldn't make me happy to find out that my choice was insignificant to BioWare. I will be highly disappointed if the collector base doesn't have a significant impact on how the war effort goes.

I'll bring up my suggestions about that again:

Paragons are all about galactic unity most of the time and are often too idealistic when it comes to the collector base, so the outcome should reflect that by having about 70-90% of galactic civilization be eradicated by the reapers. Then after everything is over, people will decide to work together to rebuild, they'll be closer then ever before, etc. They'll have their galactic unity, but perhaps not in the way they intended.

For renegades, there would be less casualties due to technology from the base, 20-40%, while humanity continues on as the dominant force in the galaxy. If the Council is all-human then their power is cemented and race relations could improve or deteriorate depending on the actions of Shepard and his influences with others.

Your relations with the rachni, geth, and krogan would also have an impact on the outcome and casualty count.

Except in your scenario, Renegades get the better end of the bargain, Paragons get hosed.  Remember, Bioware has to make the consequences EQUAL for both sides.

Heh, don't worry RiouHotaru. I'm sure your Shep will get the galactic unity and brotherhood ending complete with rainbows and butterflies. While my Shep is destined to live out the rest of his life in some god forsaken cave with his captive asari concubines and every so often record a pro-human rant to be sent to the extranet.

[Inverness Moon]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Except in your scenario, Renegades get the better end of the bargain, Paragons get hosed.  Remember, Bioware has to make the consequences EQUAL for both sides.

The consequences of both renegade and paragon decisions aren't even equal as they are now. There has yet to be a significant decision where a paragon choice comes back to bite you in the butt.

Having the choice to destroy the collector base have such a dramatic impact on the end of ME3 would be supremely delicious and would easily make me forgive BioWare's unequal treatment of the two paths. 

It's not going to happen though. 

[RiouHotaru]

Inverness Moon wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Except in your scenario, Renegades get the better end of the bargain, Paragons get hosed.  Remember, Bioware has to make the consequences EQUAL for both sides.

The consequences of both renegade and paragon decisions aren't even equal as they are now. There has yet to be a significant decision where a paragon choice comes back to bite you in the butt.

Having the choice to destroy the collector base have such a dramatic impact on the end of ME3 would be supremely delicious and would easily make me forgive BioWare's unequal treatment of the two paths. 

It's not going to happen though. 

Actually, there are mostly equal.  They usually achieve the same result.  For example, the guard in the Dantius' towers still tells you what he knows and then leaves whether you use Paragon or Renegade with him.  But sometimes the choices aren't even, yes.

[Phaedon]

[quote]smudboy wrote...

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

Positive Possibility: Subjective.
Negative Possibility: I'd say common sense says that we won't get an instant 'CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE' message.
[/quote]
No, any advantage to take down the Reapers is good.  How can that be subjective?
It's subjective to say that the advantage that you'll get from saving the base is better than Cerberus getting the base. There is no evidence to support this claim.

We're basing the choice on pure reason here.  I don't understand what you mean.
If you are basing the choice on pure reason, then you wouldn't think that the 'alternative is that the Reapers win', nor would you use the 'Oh, so did you write the plot ?' as a reply.[/quote]
Replies in red.

[quote][quote]
Let's say that this educated guess is true, what about the abductions ?
[/quote]
I'm getting really tired of this, so I'll just say TIM is the lesser of two evils.[/quote]
An evil that you can skip by not giving him the base. That's what we have been trying to prove.

[quote][quote]
Eh, both sources say that Cerberus did attack the Migrant Fleet. I don't see what you are trying to prove.
[/quote]
And I've already stated attacking does not make anyone good or bad, right or wrong.  We need context and more details.[/quote]
??? It may not make them evil, but are you suggesting that attacking someone doesn't make anyone bad or wrong ? . I clearly don't get it. If you want more context, read Ascension. If you don't want to read it, then you are going to have to work with the context the narrative gives to you. You have already accepted that TIM is 'the lesser of two evils' so I don't really see any point to arguing over this point anymore. Cerberus is indeed 'bad', now what we have to determine is wether giving them the base is worth it.


[quote][quote]
Losing an advantage, but not the game ?
[/quote]
Not following.  If the Reapers win, it's all over.[/quote]
Losing the advantage of keeping the base =/= The Reapers win.

[quote][quote]
What's the problem exactly ? We are trying to have a debate here, I just helped you find out what IC means, and you reply with a personal attack ? Not cool.[/quote]
I apologize if that's what it seemed like.  You're just a very funny guy with your supplemental material bullsh*t.  It's like you purposely like waving nonsense in my face expecting me to bite.[/quote]
If you want to call me a troll for supporting the books, then take it to PMs, or to Pacifien. There is no need for another thread and good debate to be locked.

[quote][quote]
The arguments are bull ? I don't see why you are even debating, if you don't even respect the opposite party or their points. C'mon now, all of the arguments here are bull ? None of them make sense ? 
[/quote]
If an argument is bull, I immediately commit to the flames.  I said nothing of everything being bull.[/quote]
Nothing of everything ? What does this mean ?

[quote][quote]
You are assuming that the base will be vital for the war against the Reapers.
[/quote]
It's certainly better than nothing.[/quote]
ME 3 Spoilers: Shepard will defeat the Reapers. 
If you save the base: You have supplied a very dangerous criminal with tech the Council could only dream of. 

Destroy the base: You will have to sacrifice something probably, but at least you won't have to risk a war started by Cerberus.

[quote][quote]
I find it hard to believe that you think that TIM wouldn't mind the Council checking the base and the tech. Your opinion though.
[/quote]
TIM's actual words.[/quote]
And you point is ? Are you saying that just because TIM said something, he'll do it ? Will he be sharing the technology with the Council ? That's like saying TIM has never lied to us or manipulated us in any way.
It's your opinion, though, and I am fine with it.

[quote]
The Reapers are the immediate threat. Look at the bigger picture. I can see your logic behind 'every little bit helps', but the bit is too tiny for the risk, imho.[/quote]
The bigger picture is the Reapers.  They have won, always, constantly, forever.

TIM is a scrub.

All your opinions of TIM and his agenda are irrelevant.  All your opinions on who should get the base is irrelevant.  Throwing away a tool that could very well help you prevent cyclic galactic genocide is very, very stupid.
[/quote]
If you really think that the CB is going to prevent the Reapers from attacking in some way (Tech and Evidence ???), then by all means, keep it.

[Phaedon]

smudboy wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Destroying the base makes ME2 completely irrelevant in the fight against the Reapers.

Well there is the part where you're gathering the best of the best from around the galaxy onto your team. If you want a reaper destroyed from the inside, Shepard and his team are who you're going to call.

Since when did Shepard destroy a reaper from the inside?  Wasn't the Derelict Reaper already dead?  How would a live Reaper allow a ground team to infiltrate it?

Oh wait I just killed my team...

How did ME2 advance the plot again? 

Instead of fighting the geth gods, you now know the true fate of the Protheans and the very nature of the Reapers. You know that the Reapers are part organic and that they are our 'salvation'. It may not be much, but it connects ME1 to ME3.

[GuardianAngel470]

My arguement is that while the base is a valuable asset, giving it to TIM could result in the return of the Reapers. So I ask you, how is that a logical risk to take?



Also, the books and comics are canon. You may not have read them, but they are. that means we can reference them all we want, because they are a part of the narrative.



And to be clear, I didn't know before hand that it could result in the return of the reapers, but I knew how Cerberus operated. I played completionist runs of ME1 at least five times, I played ME2 12 times, I read Ascension. I knew that they were careless and reckless, a very bad combination. I didn't know what TIM would use the base for, but I knew it was too big of a risk. He might use it somehow to rile up the rest of the galaxy, and when it would take a united galaxy to beat the reapers, making the other species' hate humanity is a bad strategic move. In my mind this would nullify any gain from the base.



Or he might go all out and try and make a reaper. My shep challenged him with that idea and he didn't deny it. In fact, he provided evidence to support the idea that he might. He probably couldn't, but just trying would result in the above scenario.



Or hell, he might do something totally unexpected, like create a Reaper Avatar that can kill krogan with its bare hands and feet, use biotics to destroy a shielded enemy, and communicate with the reapers data instantaneously. this kind of thing could be used to research weaknesses that need to be verified, orchestrate elaborate plans for the return of the reapers, or make jelly toast (which I think is the worst possible outcome, who needs an avatar toaster).



I didn't do it because I was sentimental, I did it because there were logical reasons why giving it to cerberus was a bad idea. Problem is Shep doesn't reflect this opinion in his dialog. He says something totally illogical, and because Shep said it, that is the canon reason.



Don't confuse the dialog with our reasons.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
What I'm trying to say; even if TIM managed to do the reprehensible (and yes, I would consider creating a Reaper to be more reprehensible on the scale of reprehensible-ness in regards to creating super biotics out of children) any scheme from it would be destined to failure anyway, so it seems pointless to worry about that scenario.

Yes TIM is a very smart man and a homemade reaper sounds like the pipe dream of pipe dreams. So I doubt Cerberus would do anything that stupid. A Cerberus indoctrinated by the base (CAN happen) on the other hand might be lead to belive a new reaper baby is the only way to save humanity. Remember what happened with Saren and Benezia.

You mean how Saren wasn't indoctrinated until the very end, and Benezia and her Asari already had willingly joined in Saren's efforts before indoctrination kept them from backing out?

Two people who needed no/little indoctrination to keep them on their path are not the example you want to strike to a base where carrying on the Reaper-process would require everyone to ge entirely against their will. The better comparison is to the Derilect Reaper team or the captured Salarian STG: how capable were they?

And it still doesn't cover how these indoctrinated mind-frys (as they would become in the prolonged presence) can carry out more Collector attacks, let alone ever succede. They don't have the ships to carry people off world in number: that was destroyed. The base no longer has the defenses of the Omega 4 relay and Oculus to keep Cerberus/Shepard counterattacks at bay. They don't have the numbers to avoid simply being overrun and destroyed.


So let's take a good look at this nightmare scenario.

The base has an indoctrination trap. The cell who stays on the base for days, weeks, becomes indoctrinated.

How are they going to go about creating a Reaper?

[lovgreno]

mosor wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Remember what happened with Saren and Benezia.

Bullets solved those problems.

Shepard might not be so lucky next time even though the thought of executing TIMmy while saying: "I told you so you walking piece of fail!" does sound kind of appealing.

[Arijharn]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

My arguement is that while the base is a valuable asset, giving it to TIM could result in the return of the Reapers. So I ask you, how is that a logical risk to take?

Because it's more logical to attempt technological parity with the Reapers and all the risks it entails in doing so than wringing your hands in despair of what could happen.
Because you can take actions to minimize any risk of Indoctrination, even if it's as basic as - Rotating crew, removing artifacts from the wreckage. Studying in scientifically 'safe' areas, provide monitoring by security personnel, it is not insurmountable, even if progress could be slower.

Guardian wrote.
Also, the books and comics are canon. You may not have read them, but they are. that means we can reference them all we want, because they are a part of the narrative.

It may be awesome for you to rationalise it, but it's not in the guise of Shephard him or herself in the situation. If you are taking information from outside the game (information that Shephard does not know or can not know) then you are automatically meta-gaming. Our challenge to you is to essentially compartmentalize it.

Also, the reason why smudboy has been so insistent with Phaeron ( I think, apologies if I got that wrong) not use the events of Retribution in the context of the CB decision is principally this:
When you were growing up, did your parents ever punish you for things you did tomorrow (confusing of tense here is fully intended). Does that make sense? Your parents may have good reason to believe you may do something bad, but otherwise it's frankly as baffling in comparison behind the story of Minority Report -- and at least then they were psychic!
You should be punished for your wrongdoing if or when you've done wrong, not before on the basis of 'what if.'

Guardian
And to be clear, I didn't know before hand that it could result in the return of the reapers, but I knew how Cerberus operated. I played completionist runs of ME1 at least five times, I played ME2 12 times, I read Ascension. I knew that they were careless and reckless, a very bad combination. I didn't know what TIM would use the base for, but I knew it was too big of a risk.

I don't think anyone has ever said that it wasn't a risk, only that it was a much larger risk to not gather any potential information from the base itself in preparation of when the Reapers arrive. When the risks are 'safer' in comparison to when the big bad's get here.

He might use it somehow to rile up the rest of the galaxy, and when it would take a united galaxy to beat the reapers, making the other species' hate humanity is a bad strategic move. In my mind this would nullify any gain from the base.

It would be plain strategically stupid for him to risk screwing the galaxy beforehand even assuming he would wish this because he would then make:
a) The Reapers almost his responsibility alone, politically speaking
They would have less personnel and material supplies ready to defend against the Reapers.
c) He wouldn't have the political allies to gain effective military cohesion amongst the other species (and it would not be in anyone interests if he attempts to wipe them out and we know he wont because he isn't xenophobic, and for perhaps a more pressing reason as well: trade. It's far better off for everyone involved to maintain trade with everyone else -- especially TIM and his backers)

Or he might go all out and try and make a reaper. My shep challenged him with that idea and he didn't deny it.

He [i]didn't[i] agree with it either. What you call 'evidence' I call hyperbole at best, flippant dismissal at worst. I accept that we disagree here, but I would say that for reasons I have outlined above that it's well, honestly, ridiculous to assume so as I see it.

Or hell, he might do something totally unexpected, like create a Reaper Avatar that can kill krogan with its bare hands and feet, use biotics to destroy a shielded enemy, and communicate with the reapers data instantaneously. this kind of thing could be used to research weaknesses that need to be verified, orchestrate elaborate plans for the return of the reapers, or make jelly toast (which I think is the worst possible outcome, who needs an avatar toaster).

Or genetically engineer the cutest kitten or fur seal that has ever lived to charm all his dissenters into going 'aww that's cute mode' and cause them to shut down, regardless of whether they're organic or not as he sends his agents (wearing special goggles that filter out these genetically engineered super kittens/fur seals) to conquer all in the name of the Brotherhood of Nod... I mean Cerberus.

I didn't do it because I was sentimental, I did it because there were logical reasons why giving it to cerberus was a bad idea. Problem is Shep doesn't reflect this opinion in his dialog. He says something totally illogical, and because Shep said it, that is the canon reason.

Don't confuse the dialog with our reasons.

I think bigger things are at risk with the nigh immediate threat of the Reapers than whatever TIM could or want to do, this is why I find your decisions illogical. Cerberus is, at the end of the Collector Base (in canonical order) the only ally that Shephard can depend on to any degree. He can not depend on the Council or by extension it's associate races (bound as they are to Council regulations) because to Shephard at least (and we don't know whether to take this at face value) because they have dismissed the Reapers as any credible threat at worst, and as an isolated super weapon of the Geth (who they refuse to believe has suffered an ideological schism) at best.

Think about it, who can you turn to as of that moment? You can't turn to the Alliance because the 'brass descended like vultures' after you died, and Anderson has way too much red tape surrounding him as Councillor (remember, as of the Collector Base decision) or as the Special Advisor to Udina.

You have seemingly purposely dugged yourself into a cesspool of uncertainty because you couldn't trust TIM's intentions, and as far as I can see it, at a far too high a cost... who is now going to help you fighting the Reapers that you can currently (as of the Collector Base decision) depend on?

As an aside; even as Liara as a Shadow Broker, I'm not totally sure what sort of help she can provide, hopefully it's a bit, but even then it's always useful to have as many avenues of help as possible down the line, and yes that includes the resources Cerberus can provide.

Modifié par Arijharn, 07 octobre 2010 - 11:08 .

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
So let's take a good look at this nightmare scenario.

The base has an indoctrination trap. The cell who stays on the base for days, weeks, becomes indoctrinated.

How are they going to go about creating a Reaper?

Hard to say judging from what we have seen so far. It was a suspiciously low defense of the base but on the other hand they did equip the collector cruiser to to hit a target as big as Earth. That ship was obviously not equipped for such a huge task alone so perhaps it had substantial backup elsewhere?

That base included a factory to build a reaper, it can be started up to do that again using the workers from on board collectors if the radiation wave failed (CAN happen), indoctrinated humans (CAN happen) or other reaper controlled forces from elsewhere (They CAN exist).

The indoctrinated Cerb redshirts (CAN happen) can be used in a typical reaper method of infiltrating and spreading reaper influence and spying. A bit ironic if the base was used to gather info about organics for the reapers instead of the other way around as TIMmy intended. Let's hope that doesn't weaken Shepard and the rest of the galaxy enough to ensure reaper victory.

I doub't that it would be as easy to retake or destroy the base when they are expecting you.

Modifié par lovgreno, 07 octobre 2010 - 11:12 .

[scotchtape622]

"I don't think anyone has ever said that it wasn't a risk, only that it was a much larger risk to not gather any potential information from the base itself in preparation of when the Reapers arrive. When the risks are 'safer' in comparison to when the big bad's get here."



See, that is the issue. We disagree on the bigger risk.



Renegade:

You keep the Collector Base. You get access to (maybe) more intel on the Reapers and (maybe) better weaponry. You risk TIM doing something reprehensible.



Paragon:

You destroy the Collector Base, but at least EDI got some data before it was destroyed. You (maybe) lose access to data and weaponry, but the galactic nations will be much more likely to join you (because you aren't working for Cerberus, and TIM won't have the chance to do something stupid).

[Arijharn]

scotchtape622 wrote...

"I don't think anyone has ever said that it wasn't a risk, only that it was a much larger risk to not gather any potential information from the base itself in preparation of when the Reapers arrive. When the risks are 'safer' in comparison to when the big bad's get here."

See, that is the issue. We disagree on the bigger risk.

Renegade:
You keep the Collector Base. You get access to (maybe) more intel on the Reapers and (maybe) better weaponry. You risk TIM doing something reprehensible.

Paragon:
You destroy the Collector Base, but at least EDI got some data before it was destroyed. You (maybe) lose access to data and weaponry, but the galactic nations will be much more likely to join you (because you aren't working for Cerberus, and TIM won't have the chance to do something stupid).

You have no idea how hard and how much I struggle to think the opposite, to put myself in your shoes.

Reapers exist from beyond the galactic plane... they harvest all life in the galaxy every 50k years.
TIM is a man who lives on a mobile space station who likes to think big.

TIM may very well be a threat, but wouldn't it be more prudent to actually act on the threat after the Reapers get knocked on their ass since they represent the present threat? You know the saying: "Don't count your chickens before they hatch?" I think you guys are not only counting, but multiplying and squaring the number

[scotchtape622]

Remember the Galactic unity issue though. We don't think that working with TIM is the correct way to achieve that, and we also believe that the best strategic decision military-wise would be a united galaxy.

[smudboy]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Remember the Galactic unity issue though. We don't think that working with TIM is the correct way to achieve that, and we also believe that the best strategic decision military-wise would be a united galaxy.

I have this really important issue.  It's called the Non-Galactic-Genocidal issue.  In fact, it's so important, it makes your bizarre importance over politics make me cry tears of methane gas.

[Arijharn]

I don't see how saving the Collector base automatically makes it less likely for the other species to ally with you. As I see it, Cerberus will be working behind the scenes with the Alliance, and due to the common threat then the sides will have to work together regardless due to the circumstances. The other species may suspect Cerberus' involvement, but considering it's in everyone's mutual goals to survive then I don't think they'll swat away a hand offered.



The reason why they'd have to work together? Because of the technological superiority of the Reapers -- no species can exist and survive on it's own, it's simple necessity as I see it. It'd be essentially every man woman and child bearing arms (not really, but that's the sort of imagery I want) and you'll have to trust your neighbour because he has just as much to lose as you.

[Dean_the_Young]

RiouHotaru wrote...

My guess is that the datapad will be what Paragons will use because they destroyed the base. The information stored in their servers is what we're really after anyway, right? Renegades keep the base, so they have all the information they need. Meanwhile, Paragons have the information data-mined, which means they can destroy the base and STILL have the relevant information they need to win in ME3.

Everybody wins.

And makes the end-choice completely irrelevant, even for Paragons, because it would also mean TIM has all the data. Hence keeping/destroying the base is irrelevant to TIM's designs, because TIM wouldn't need the hardware itself if he had the knowledge to replicate/use it at his own place of choosing, meaning he would never have reason to make a confrontation with Shepard in the first place, and so wouldn't try and order Miranda to preserve the base. If the gains of the base were already taken by EDI, TIM wouldn't have had reason to try and draw a line in the first place.

If that data pad represents all the useful knowledge in the base. Which a picture in and of itself does not imply, and EDI infiltrating the Collector Base network does not automatically entail she got everything. After all, the same occured during the Collector Vessel, and yet you still had to go somewhere else for knowledge of the IFF. A compromised system is not a completely looted system.


The entire story's end-game choice setup and post-story narration opposes the premise that EDI get all the useful information there was to know from the base regardless. TIM doesn't believe so, EDI doesn't counter his argument as she is well capable of doing if it were inaccurate, Shepard doesn't believe or claim so at any point (rather, claiming it's worth the loss), and all of your teammates ruminate that the real prize of the base is either in TIM's hands or lost forever.

[Arijharn]

Personally, I thought it was annoying that not one person agreed with my decision to save the base. It's like the game is pushing me too, in my opinion, act illogically and act upon emotional responses. It just seems so contrived and artificial to me, and by pushing me and making me choose logically (to how I understand it) it's going out of it's way to browbeat me.

I just find it baffling, since not one of them offer me anything more than platitudes.