2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Arijharn wrote...

There was a thread probably a couple of weeks ago (by Dean I think) that postulated the theoretical limitations of Indoctrination. He divided it between smart Indoctrination (people like Saren) and those who eventually get zombified (like the Derelict Reaper).

Basically, my pet theory is that Indoctrination is only really effective in atmosphere environments, if it happens in space it's only in breachs of controlled environments (say; a device is placed inside a space station or warship) so theoretically short of a ship getting punctured by Reaper minion boarding teams (in which case they'd have more pressing things to worry about) Indoctrination in space, particularly in a conflict seems to be a non-issue... unless evidence to the contrary is discovered.

Last week, actually.

The basic thing is that indoctrination victims fall into two categories: those still intelligent, and those with minds sand-blasted into soup crackers.

Those still intelligent come from only one means, and that's actual living Reaper-controlled indoctrination, either in the presence of a Reaper (Saren, Benezia) or from Reaper implants (Grayson). To stay intelligent, there either needs to be less indoctrination on already willing persons (Saren and Benezia, who voluntarily were working for Sovereign's goals on their own volition) , or upgrades via cybernetics to make up for the loss (Grayson, the Collector General).

Otherwise, all other indoctrination to date has pretty much ruined people for higher skills. The derilect reaper didn't turn the scientists to work for the Reapers or to lie about data and provide a bad IFF, it turned them into husks. Dragons teeth and their accompanying automatic indoctrination devices doesn't, hasn't, turned people into secret agents, it turns them into husks. Saren's indoctrination labs didn't turn the captured STG into husks, but that was because of a lack of dragon's teeth. Elite commandoes basically became more meat grunts.

Indoctrination has limits. The more it has to change your mind, the less useful you are. So really, by the time a Cerberus team has been indoctrinated to the point of attacking humanity/making another attempt at a Reaper, they've already lost most of the skills and capabilities as individuals they would need to do so.

And that's if there was 'smart' indoctrination. Otherwise, just more husks. Which aren't a threat to the galaxy.

[smudboy]

Arijharn wrote...

Personally, I thought it was annoying that not one person agreed with my decision to save the base. It's like the game is pushing me too, in my opinion, act illogically and act upon emotional responses. It just seems so contrived and artificial to me, and by pushing me and making me choose logically (to how I understand it) it's going out of it's way to browbeat me.
I just find it baffling, since not one of them offer me anything more than platitudes.

Related, but what's even more bizarre is some of their complete about face.  Garrus, Legion and Mordin have the right idea.

Modifié par smudboy, 07 octobre 2010 - 01:28 .

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
So let's take a good look at this nightmare scenario.

The base has an indoctrination trap. The cell who stays on the base for days, weeks, becomes indoctrinated.

How are they going to go about creating a Reaper?

Hard to say judging from what we have seen so far. It was a suspiciously low defense of the base but on the other hand they did equip the collector cruiser to to hit a target as big as Earth. That ship was obviously not equipped for such a huge task alone so perhaps it had substantial backup elsewhere?

The base didn't have low defenses. The Base had extremely high defenses, the highest one of which was the Omega 4 relay itself. It's just that it focused on external defenses, which was entirely reasonable.

The implication in-game was that the ship was equiped for such a task. It has the capacity to take the targets away, and it has the capacity to carry what it needs over to Earth if need be.

Maybe not the most feasibly, but nothing implies more elsewhere.

That base included a factory to build a reaper, it can be started up to do that again using the workers from on board collectors if the radiation wave failed (CAN happen),

Did not happen, and with the destruction of the cruiser (negating their ability to, you know, collect) and the ability to bypass Omega 4, nothing prevents any other efforts from returning to the base now. The collectors fangs are pulled before you even set foot on the base itself.

indoctrinated humans (CAN happen)

Not really. If every Cerberus operative were indoctrinated and smoothied, there'd be hundreds more people to start that next reaper, while

or other reaper controlled forces from elsewhere (They CAN exist).

Again, how are they going to seize and hold the base now that the bases primary defenses are gone, and how are they going to go about collecting people?

If the Reapers had a second Collector force, they would have been working with the Collectors to, you know, collect, since they would have been able to do it faster and more securely.

The indoctrinated Cerb redshirts (CAN happen) can be used in a typical reaper method of infiltrating and spreading reaper influence and spying.

Limits of indoctrination, and of what spying actually enables. It does not, for example, magically enable millions of people to disappear into the Collector Base without notice by anyone... including un-indoctrinated Shepard and Cerberus..

A bit ironic if the base was used to gather info about organics for the reapers instead of the other way around as TIMmy intended. Let's hope that doesn't weaken Shepard and the rest of the galaxy enough to ensure reaper victory.

Yes.

Because the Collectors and Sovereign didn't already have a Shadow Broker-tier intelligence network in the galaxy to learn about us for thousands of years.

Because, really, the Reapers know nothing unless we keep the base. Keep that vital intelligence secret! (Er, what intelligence was that again that would ruin us more than what we benefit for learning their technology?)

I doub't that it would be as easy to retake or destroy the base when they are expecting you.

No, but then you don't need to take it easily to neutralize it easily now.

[GGRush]

Arijharn wrote...

Personally, I thought it was annoying that not one person agreed with my decision to save the base. It's like the game is pushing me too, in my opinion, act illogically and act upon emotional responses. It just seems so contrived and artificial to me, and by pushing me and making me choose logically (to how I understand it) it's going out of it's way to browbeat me.
I just find it baffling, since not one of them offer me anything more than platitudes.

Mordin doesn't trust Cerberus and doesn't really care about humans.
Legion is from a race of super-computers, judging that humans should research on their own, like the super-computers do.
Pretty invalid reasons.
Dunno about Thane and Tali.

Aside from above,
Miranda and Jacob are being idealistic at least for the time being.
Jack hates TIM. Grunt despises him. Samara worries about his abilities.
Not convincing enough.

[Arijharn]

Dean posted this in another thread (thanks to smudboy for linking it), but I think it's of direct import here too:

Cerberus isn't humanity, except in a metaphorical sense that doesn't apply to this context. Most people don't even know about it, it doesn't represent Humanity, has no fixed assets to target, and the Alliance already opposes it. Unifying against Humanity, a major friendly military power with a population of billions in reaction to the efforts of a group of under 200 odd human extremists would be pointless and beyond stupid .

[jbblue05]

Cerberus is considered a minor threat from the Council and hasn't shown any hostilities that we know of to Alien colonies or their homeworld. just for human domination

I don't understand how giving Cerberus the CB equals attacks on aliens. Its just supposition with no strong foundation.

I can easily say by not picking the renegade choices the Alliance would regress becoming useless to the Council.and are kicked off of it

[Dean_the_Young]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Remember the Galactic unity issue though. We don't think that working with TIM is the correct way to achieve that, and we also believe that the best strategic decision military-wise would be a united galaxy.

You've already worked with TIM. The Collector Base decision has nothing to do with the number of things you've done for him. The galaxy isn't interested in working with you against the Reapers before the Collectors killed you, it isn't now, and after the Base even if you tell TIM off they can still simply point out to your working relationship with him if they want.

You don't how galactic unity now, nor do you have any reasonable expectation of it if you destroy even more evidence of the Reapers.


Even beyond that, how, exactly does giving the base to TIM prevent the Council from working with the Alliance, who is also part of the Council and an avowed enemy of Cerberus as well?

[Xilizhra]

Even beyond that, how, exactly does giving the base to TIM prevent the Council from working with the Alliance, who is also part of the Council and an avowed enemy of Cerberus as well?

This depends on how much of the Alliance Cerberus controls, which is a question that no one knows the answer to right now. If the Collector base information leaks out, and the Council decides to dismantle Cerberus once and for all, it could end up fighting the Alliance (or the former Council races fight the conquered Council and the Alliance).

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Even beyond that, how, exactly does giving the base to TIM prevent the Council from working with the Alliance, who is also part of the Council and an avowed enemy of Cerberus as well?

This depends on how much of the Alliance Cerberus controls, which is a question that no one knows the answer to right now. If the Collector base information leaks out, and the Council decides to dismantle Cerberus once and for all, it could end up fighting the Alliance (or the former Council races fight the conquered Council and the Alliance).

If TIM pushed them to fight about it. But why should he?

The Council has been trying to dismantle Cerberus for some time: the reason they haven't is because they don't know where to go, for the most part. Even if it starts a witch hunt, Cerberus can disband, regroup, and rise again under another banner. Cerberus's goals, a strong Humanity, doesn't necessitate Cerberus itself be defended at all costs by the Alliance. If the Alliance is putting effort against Cerberus, as it does, then agents in the Alliance brass are criminals, not the entire Alliance itself, and attacking the entire Alliance over criminals hidden inside would be quioxte. No one is going to attack the Asari because Dantius was a high ranking politician with times to a pirate group, after all.

It would be better for Humanity, and thus Cerberus's goals, to not tell its agents to start a war over Cerberus on its behalf, which they have never done to date. So, when the Alliance, as always, is openly compliant and helpful against Cerberus... why attack the Alliance?

[Xilizhra]

How often has the Alliance ever actually done anything significant against Cerberus? Publicly opposed it, yes, but has anything major really been accomplished? It may just be smoke and mirrors.



Also, I have two reasons for thinking this. In-game, I don't trust TIM's mental stability once he has the thing he's been spending years looking for. Out-of-game, the plot of ME3 can't be too different for Paragon and Renegade endings in ME2, implying that Cerberus will play the same role in both versions; I'm going to bet that they'll be antagonists.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

How often has the Alliance ever actually done anything significant against Cerberus? Publicly opposed it, yes, but has anything major really been accomplished? It may just be smoke and mirrors.

In the Cerberus Daily News and Cerberus history, whenever Cerberus gets in the news, it's been because the Alliance stumbled across and stopped them. Even Retribution required Alliance effort (Anderson) to get the Turians to be able to hit the base.

The Alliance as an institution isn't under cerberus's thumb or control. TIM has contacts, and therefore influence, but he doesn't run it as his personal fiefdom, nor does it act as if he does. Plenty of the Alliance hates Cerberus, as Miranda and Jacob will testify on Horizon when faced by the Virmire survivor.

Also, I have two reasons for thinking this. In-game, I don't trust TIM's mental stability once he has the thing he's been spending years looking for. Out-of-game, the plot of ME3 can't be too different for Paragon and Renegade endings in ME2, implying that Cerberus will play the same role in both versions; I'm going to bet that they'll be antagonists.

Out of game, as the last game in the series the tone of the game (the world setup, if not the levels) can be radically different now that they don't have to bridge to the next in the series.

[smudboy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, I have two reasons for thinking this. In-game, I don't trust TIM's mental stability once he has the thing he's been spending years looking for. Out-of-game, the plot of ME3 can't be too different for Paragon and Renegade endings in ME2, implying that Cerberus will play the same role in both versions; I'm going to bet that they'll be antagonists.

When is TIM's mental stability ever at question?  He's a pragmatist.  The guy can barely get angry at Miranda or Shepard for blowing up the base.  This is after his regular regiment of smoking and drinking all day.

And when was he spending years looking for something?  What, is he going to go all nutbar because he found a new piece of technology?  I don't seem to recall the Derelict Reaper turning him inside-out.

[Xilizhra]

In the Cerberus Daily News and Cerberus history, whenever Cerberus gets in the news, it's been because the Alliance stumbled across and stopped them. Even Retribution required Alliance effort (Anderson) to get the Turians to be able to hit the base.

Note that Anderson was acting as a renegade to do that, without sanctioned support.

The Alliance as an institution isn't under cerberus's thumb or control. TIM has contacts, and therefore influence, but he doesn't run it as his personal fiefdom, nor does it act as if he does. Plenty of the Alliance hates Cerberus, as Miranda and Jacob will testify on Horizon when faced by the Virmire survivor.

True, but he does have plenty of influence. He wouldn't just take command of it, but pointing it towards certain other forces as enemies seems within his power.

When is TIM's mental stability ever at question? He's a pragmatist. The guy can barely get angry at Miranda or Shepard for blowing up the base. This is after his regular regiment of smoking and drinking all day.

This is more a sense about the narrative structure.

And when was he spending years looking for something? What, is he going to go all nutbar because he found a new piece of technology? I don't seem to recall the Derelict Reaper turning him inside-out.

My personal suspicion is that TIM believes the Reapers are real, but not an urgent threat; they're trapped in dark space, after all, and couldn't arrive for a long time (alas, they're much closer than anyone thought). Therefore, his purpose in rebuilding Shepard is to bring back both the Collector base (or whatever Reaper-based technology is behind this) and give it to him, along with possible public support (as seen in that "she's a hero, a bloody icon" conversation in the opening).

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

In the Cerberus Daily News and Cerberus history, whenever Cerberus gets in the news, it's been because the Alliance stumbled across and stopped them. Even Retribution required Alliance effort (Anderson) to get the Turians to be able to hit the base.

Note that Anderson was acting as a renegade to do that, without sanctioned support.

But not because of an Alliance affiliation with Cerberus as much as the Alliance not doing what he wanted in general, including preparing for the reapers.

True, but he does have plenty of influence. He wouldn't just take command of it, but pointing it towards certain other forces as enemies seems within his power.

And so what?

When a country's leadership is infiltrated, but not dominated, by criminals, you don't start a war against the country. You help them uncover the criminals, which they (or at least the Alliance) has shown willingness to prosecute.

My personal suspicion is that TIM believes the Reapers are real, but not an urgent threat; they're trapped in dark space, after all, and couldn't arrive for a long time (alas, they're much closer than anyone thought). Therefore, his purpose in rebuilding Shepard is to bring back both the Collector base (or whatever Reaper-based technology is behind this) and give it to him, along with possible public support (as seen in that "she's a hero, a bloody icon" conversation in the opening).

Even though there wasn't proof that it was even Collectors behind it until Freedom's Progress, and that they were working with the Reapers until Horizon? Back before the Collectors had even really begun abducting colonies?

[smudboy]

Xilizhra wrote...

When is TIM's mental stability ever at question? He's a pragmatist. The guy can barely get angry at Miranda or Shepard for blowing up the base. This is after his regular regiment of smoking and drinking all day.

This is more a sense about the narrative structure.

And what about it?

My personal suspicion is that TIM believes the Reapers are real, but not an urgent threat; they're trapped in dark space, after all, and couldn't arrive for a long time (alas, they're much closer than anyone thought). Therefore, his purpose in rebuilding Shepard is to bring back both the Collector base (or whatever Reaper-based technology is behind this) and give it to him, along with possible public support (as seen in that "she's a hero, a bloody icon" conversation in the opening)

Maybe you should watch the first few minutes, one more time.

We know TIM and Miranda believes the Reapers are real.

He and Miranda could not have had such a purpose for Shepard, because they didn't even know the Collectors were behind the abductions.  In fact it's Shepard that discovers this.  They also had no idea there was a base, a homeworld, a fleet, a billion of them, etc.

[Xilizhra]

Even though there wasn't proof that it was even Collectors behind it until Freedom's Progress, and that they were working with the Reapers until Horizon? Back before the Collectors had even really begun abducting colonies?

Not the Collectors specifically; he'd be after anything Reaper-y at all, from whatever was behind the abductions.

[General User]

Arijharn wrote...

I don't see how saving the Collector base automatically makes it less likely for the other species to ally with you. As I see it, Cerberus will be working behind the scenes with the Alliance, and due to the common threat then the sides will have to work together regardless due to the circumstances. The other species may suspect Cerberus' involvement, but considering it's in everyone's mutual goals to survive then I don't think they'll swat away a hand offered.

The reason why they'd have to work together? Because of the technological superiority of the Reapers -- no species can exist and survive on it's own, it's simple necessity as I see it. It'd be essentially every man woman and child bearing arms (not really, but that's the sort of imagery I want) and you'll have to trust your neighbour because he has just as much to lose as you.

For the reasons you mention, keeping the CB doesn’t preclude the possibility of alliance with other races, but it must make them less likely or, at best, more difficult. As Cerberus is an avowed enemy of the Council and even the human race in general is treated with a certain amount of apprehension.
 
Expecting the Citadel races to make rational decisions, and join forces (in a subservient role no less) with an avowed enemy after the appearance of the Reapers in our galaxy makes their existence undeniable and everyone is in full-on panic mode is… unrealistic. 


Stick with cold calculation, it's what renegades do best.  Leave the idealism to the paragons.
 
 

[Dean_the_Young]

Cerberus isn't an avowed enemy of the Council: the Council is an avowed enemy of Cerberus. One hates the other, but the other doesn't reciprocate in return.



The Citadel races don't have to join forces with Cerberus, let alone in a subservient role. What would be the point of Cerberus even trying? Cerberus has less than 150 people, no fleets, and the long-term advantage of the Collector Base is greater the less anyone knows of it. They have an incentive NOT to go public about their choice in order to maximize the value of their gains.



Let the Citadel races join together and fight the Reapers. Cerberus can provide assistance (regardless of whether it's wanted or not), while supplying human interest groups with advanced aid and tech to put Humanity in better standing.

[Arijharn]

General User wrote...

Stick with cold calculation, it's what renegades do best.  Leave the idealism to the paragons.
  

This is 'cold calculation'; work together or die. Cerberus isn't a public face despite what the game seems to portray, therefore it would be ridiculous for the other species to ostracise the potential support of the Alliance (and we know that the Alliance is one of if not the current strongest standing navy in the universe).

[GuardianAngel470]

Arijharn wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

My arguement is that while the base is a valuable asset, giving it to TIM could result in the return of the Reapers. So I ask you, how is that a logical risk to take?

Because it's more logical to attempt technological parity with the Reapers and all the risks it entails in doing so than wringing your hands in despair of what could happen.
Because you can take actions to minimize any risk of Indoctrination, even if it's as basic as - Rotating crew, removing artifacts from the wreckage. Studying in scientifically 'safe' areas, provide monitoring by security personnel, it is not insurmountable, even if progress could be slower.

Guardian wrote.
Also, the books and comics are canon. You may not have read them, but they are. that means we can reference them all we want, because they are a part of the narrative.

It may be awesome for you to rationalise it, but it's not in the guise of Shephard him or herself in the situation. If you are taking information from outside the game (information that Shephard does not know or can not know) then you are automatically meta-gaming. Our challenge to you is to essentially compartmentalize it.

Also, the reason why smudboy has been so insistent with Phaeron ( I think, apologies if I got that wrong) not use the events of Retribution in the context of the CB decision is principally this:
When you were growing up, did your parents ever punish you for things you did tomorrow (confusing of tense here is fully intended). Does that make sense? Your parents may have good reason to believe you may do something bad, but otherwise it's frankly as baffling in comparison behind the story of Minority Report -- and at least then they were psychic!
You should be punished for your wrongdoing if or when you've done wrong, not before on the basis of 'what if.'

Guardian
And to be clear, I didn't know before hand that it could result in the return of the reapers, but I knew how Cerberus operated. I played completionist runs of ME1 at least five times, I played ME2 12 times, I read Ascension. I knew that they were careless and reckless, a very bad combination. I didn't know what TIM would use the base for, but I knew it was too big of a risk.

I don't think anyone has ever said that it wasn't a risk, only that it was a much larger risk to not gather any potential information from the base itself in preparation of when the Reapers arrive. When the risks are 'safer' in comparison to when the big bad's get here.

He might use it somehow to rile up the rest of the galaxy, and when it would take a united galaxy to beat the reapers, making the other species' hate humanity is a bad strategic move. In my mind this would nullify any gain from the base.

It would be plain strategically stupid for him to risk screwing the galaxy beforehand even assuming he would wish this because he would then make:
a) The Reapers almost his responsibility alone, politically speaking
They would have less personnel and material supplies ready to defend against the Reapers.
c) He wouldn't have the political allies to gain effective military cohesion amongst the other species (and it would not be in anyone interests if he attempts to wipe them out and we know he wont because he isn't xenophobic, and for perhaps a more pressing reason as well: trade. It's far better off for everyone involved to maintain trade with everyone else -- especially TIM and his backers)

Or he might go all out and try and make a reaper. My shep challenged him with that idea and he didn't deny it.

He [i]didn't[i] agree with it either. What you call 'evidence' I call hyperbole at best, flippant dismissal at worst. I accept that we disagree here, but I would say that for reasons I have outlined above that it's well, honestly, ridiculous to assume so as I see it.

Or hell, he might do something totally unexpected, like create a Reaper Avatar that can kill krogan with its bare hands and feet, use biotics to destroy a shielded enemy, and communicate with the reapers data instantaneously. this kind of thing could be used to research weaknesses that need to be verified, orchestrate elaborate plans for the return of the reapers, or make jelly toast (which I think is the worst possible outcome, who needs an avatar toaster).

Or genetically engineer the cutest kitten or fur seal that has ever lived to charm all his dissenters into going 'aww that's cute mode' and cause them to shut down, regardless of whether they're organic or not as he sends his agents (wearing special goggles that filter out these genetically engineered super kittens/fur seals) to conquer all in the name of the Brotherhood of Nod... I mean Cerberus.

I didn't do it because I was sentimental, I did it because there were logical reasons why giving it to cerberus was a bad idea. Problem is Shep doesn't reflect this opinion in his dialog. He says something totally illogical, and because Shep said it, that is the canon reason.

Don't confuse the dialog with our reasons.

I think bigger things are at risk with the nigh immediate threat of the Reapers than whatever TIM could or want to do, this is why I find your decisions illogical. Cerberus is, at the end of the Collector Base (in canonical order) the only ally that Shephard can depend on to any degree. He can not depend on the Council or by extension it's associate races (bound as they are to Council regulations) because to Shephard at least (and we don't know whether to take this at face value) because they have dismissed the Reapers as any credible threat at worst, and as an isolated super weapon of the Geth (who they refuse to believe has suffered an ideological schism) at best.

Think about it, who can you turn to as of that moment? You can't turn to the Alliance because the 'brass descended like vultures' after you died, and Anderson has way too much red tape surrounding him as Councillor (remember, as of the Collector Base decision) or as the Special Advisor to Udina.

You have seemingly purposely dugged yourself into a cesspool of uncertainty because you couldn't trust TIM's intentions, and as far as I can see it, at a far too high a cost... who is now going to help you fighting the Reapers that you can currently (as of the Collector Base decision) depend on?

As an aside; even as Liara as a Shadow Broker, I'm not totally sure what sort of help she can provide, hopefully it's a bit, but even then it's always useful to have as many avenues of help as possible down the line, and yes that includes the resources Cerberus can provide.

Urgh. I am quite frustrated. I go to length to explain how I agree that the base should be kept and how it would have been had I been able to give it to anybody but Cerberus and yet you still don't view my post from that perspective. I explain that I did it because TIM was too impulsive and reckless to logically assess the consequences of failure and offer up two unlikely scenarios that are nevertheless possible. These scenarios, however unlikely, need to be taken into consideration when dealing with Cerberus because they just don't care about caution. 

Even if TIM could be trusted to act logically, which he can't, his people would be the ones doing the experiments, and so far it is completely obvious they would throw caution to the wind (Rachni, Thorian Creepers, Husks, and Jack).  

I provide proof of the possible consequences and clearly state that I didn't use it to make the initial decision but am using it to prove the validity of my logic.  The Reaper Avatar business is exactly the kind of stupid experiments I feared that Cerberus would try, and I was right to fear it.

And it is not logical to risk everything, time to catch up, time to formulate strategies, time to organize resistance, time form alliances, and complete annihilation for the possibility of success.  If something on the base backfires and gains the advantage, it's all over. The Reapers come and destroy everything.

If caution fails and the combined forces of the galaxy can't defend against the reapers, then the galaxy is destroyed, but at least the species' of the galaxy had the chance to fight back with everything they had.

If I'm right, then the galaxy is in the best political position to fight back and win.

If you are right, we have the best tech to fight back and win.

So, logically, if your plan fails then all life is killed without the ability to fight back. If it succeeds, then the galaxy has the best tech to fight back and suffer minimal losses (assuming you have allies).

If I am wrong, then the galaxy is destroyed but not until after putting up a good fight and setting up backup plans to help the next civilization. We would have the time to create a way to inform the next cycle of the dangers and possibly help finally stop the reapers.  If I am right, the galaxy is saved and can continue peacefully.

That is why my I destroy the base, because in the event something goes wrong, there is a minimum of risk.

[Flamewielder]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Flamewielder:
Again, it doesn't matter. All these arguments come to nothing because they assume that there is nothing *vital* on the Collector base that we can't get any other way. TIM's motives doesn't matter. Cerberus' style of research doesn't matter. All that doesn't change the basic fact: we can't afford the assumption that there is nothing vital there, because if we're wrong we're all dead. Thus, we can't afford to destroy the base.

 Actually, that's correct... On the metagaming level, we know that the designers want to make Paragon/Renegade arcs different yet equivalent; in other words, both paths lead to success, using different means and resulting in different side effects. So from a metagaming perspective, we know Shepard can succeed even if the base is destroyed.

BUT, from a strictly in-game perspective, Shepard has no way of knowing if the base is essential or not when he has to decide to keep it or blow it. If so, destroying the base may have condemned the galaxy... Implication unpleasant...

I think that's the first real instance I've noticed the Paragon/Renegade options to be so unbalanced...

But your point is well taken: the Paragon option of destroying the base is, at that point in time, the worst option of the two. I stand corrected...

In order for the Paragon/Renegade options to be balanced, Shepard would have had to be certain the base was unessential (such as a brief communication from EDI letting know it/she managed to get complete base/Reaper data and schematics dowloaded from the base's systems). The base would then have clearly only benefited Cerberus, which may be what a Renegade Shepard might want.

The data itself could then be either: 1) shared among Council races (Paragon or loyal Spectre option) or 2) handed over to TIM and Cerberus (Renegade or pro-human option).

[sagefic]

smudboy wrote...

(puts on horns)
I dislike TIM. TIM lied to me. This is why I destroyed the base. Also, I wanted the opportunity to stick it to the man, and I took the Lost Operative mission opportunity to upload the data to the Alliance, because I dislike TIM.

If TIM gives me a weapon to fight the Reapers in ME3, I will eat it because I do not like TIM! Anything about TIM and the Reapers is bad, so I will attack them as best I could! I made sure Miranda and Jacob got killed in the Suicide Mission. After EDI transfers her program to her non-Cerberus made robot body, I can't wait to hit the self-destruct button in ME3 on the SR3, because Cerberus is bad!
(takes off horns)

Wow. Second post (first response) of the thread pretty much says it all.

This. Although, I would extend my dislike to Cerberus in general and I personally gloat when Miranda also tells TIM to stick it. the entire thing was worth it for this:

Modifié par sagequeen, 08 octobre 2010 - 01:27 .

[sagefic]

Somebody1003 wrote...

You do realize he was being sarcastic, right? 

yes. and that's exactly what i think about TIM all the same.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus isn't an avowed enemy of the Council: the Council is an avowed enemy of Cerberus. One hates the other, but the other doesn't reciprocate in return.

The Citadel races don't have to join forces with Cerberus, let alone in a subservient role. What would be the point of Cerberus even trying? Cerberus has less than 150 people, no fleets, and the long-term advantage of the Collector Base is greater the less anyone knows of it. They have an incentive NOT to go public about their choice in order to maximize the value of their gains.

Let the Citadel races join together and fight the Reapers. Cerberus can provide assistance (regardless of whether it's wanted or not), while supplying human interest groups with advanced aid and tech to put Humanity in better standing.

I thought the Council considers Cerberus an enemy, hence their reaction to finding out Shepard was alive and working with them. It was also also why Anderson didn’t share with Shepard any information regarding Kaiden/Ashley and his/her mission.
 
Cerberus might not consider the Council an enemy per se, I got the distinct impression that Cerberus views existing power structures as organizations to be co-opted, corrupted, or controlled, to one degree or another.  Mutual antagonism evident.
 
I should have been clearer, when I spoke of joining the war effort in a subservient role, I meant to humans in general, and Shepard, David Anderson and ADM. Hackett in specific. Those humans could be wearing Cerberus (will be most unpopular), Alliance (might win a few more friends with this one), or “other” (my personal favorite) uniforms. Every race has something to contribute, the human contribution is leadership, one way or another.
 
Cerberus is organized into task oriented cells, the “150 people” figure represents the current manning of those cells. The actual human-resources Cerberus can leverage must be far greater. 150 people isn’t even enough to operate a single respectable front company (of which Cerberus operates several), let alone undertake diverse intelligence ops galaxy wide.
 
Do you mean that that Council would have to (and probably wouldn’t want to, for fear of ending their personal political careers) go public about any deal they made with Cerberus? Well, no they wouldn’t have to, but they’d need a hell of a cover story is the base is to be fully exploited as the tech goldmine it seems to be.  ANy suggestions as to what might work?
 
Think about it, nationwide militarization programs CANNOT occur in a vacuum. Millions even billions of people from all over the galaxy would have to be involved to one extent or another. From soldiers and sailors who suddenly have their training regimens altered (“Hey Sarge! Why are we training to fight zombies?”), to engineers all over the galaxy who have to figure out how to turn the theoretical fruits of the CB into actual systems, to the employees of God-only-knows how many shipbuilding firms/military contractors that will be required to retrofit entire fleets with new hardware.
 
It’s fair to say that anyone not involved in the war effort will be talking about it and asking questions. Not the least of which will be: “where is all this new stuff coming from?” If the CB is to be exploited for technology, it is best if done openly. If for no other reason than that different and alien minds could think up something humans and Cerberus, for whatever reason, didn’t (such as the thanix).