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[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Hoped he wasn't outright stereotypical mustache twirling villain evil (stomping puppies/torturing kiddies). Makes it too easy to judge him.

That makes him mustache twirling evil to you, but not to everyone.

HE TORTURED CHILDREN is just too emphatic. It's practically slapping you in the face with evil. It's hard to have a character do that and still have the audience feel conflicted or ambiguous about them. 

TIM's a good, interesting character, I think they shouldn't make it so easy for us to call him outright corrupt/evil.

[Nightwriter]

chris025657 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You misunderstand. His goal is not just to save humanity, it is to advance it - he only does one so he can achieve the other. He doesn't know when to stop. It's all mixed together for him, saving humanity, advancing it, making humanity strongest.

We all agree working with TIM is good in the short term. Because yes, he does want to save humanity, and that's good. Which is why my other disagreement is that I don't just want to save humanity. Again, our goals clash.

Supposing he wanted to wipe out every other sentient race out there to save humanity? Not cool, bro.

I don't think advancing humanity and achieving dominance can be equated with oppression and extermination of other species.

Project TRAPDOOR.

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

So either way, he knew about Jack and what was being done to her. ... Damn. I was really hoping he was in the dark about the bulk of that. I guess that was too much to expect. Sigh.

I don't think he knew much more than her existence. He knew about nanosurgery, but I don't see how that could mean knowledge of torture.

[Arijharn]

I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that humans get studied by alien species either though.



Honestly though; Asari biotics can be a threat though. I must admit that I don't have moral qualms in trying to mitigate even destroy that threat... because it's not as if Cerberus is going around dropping O-E into Asari water tanks actively like some STG teams were with the Genophage.

[chris025657]

Nightwriter wrote...



Project TRAPDOOR.

What about it? I still don't see how the temporary neutralization of biotic powers equates to total genocide. There are all sorts of tactical reasons why this could be useful. My point is that is still a speculative risk compared to the Reaper threat. 

Modifié par chris025657, 27 septembre 2010 - 02:54 .

[Nightwriter]

1. The damage is likely permanent, the file says so. Experiments were also performed on captive asari. It implies harmful intent toward alien races. I actually felt conflicted about it, I sort of liked the idea of having some power over them if we needed it.

2. Then don't use the word "evil", Shand, use "cartoonishly cruel" or something, I dunno. Point is it's a bit much as is.

3. Arijharn, I thought you were suggesting he knew that Teltin was experimenting on other children and likely fatally harming them? With the "WTF I JUST SENT YOU 6 YESTERDAY?!" thing?

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...
3. Arijharn, I thought you were suggesting he knew that Teltin was experimenting on other children and likely fatally harming them? With the "WTF I JUST SENT YOU 6 YESTERDAY?!" thing?

Hmm, sorry I wasn't being clear.

I think he knew these things:
a) Teltin existed and what its end purpose was (afterall, he would have approved its funding). When I say end purpose I mean - tangible gains in human biotic potential and understanding.
He knew that Jack existed and probably that she was abducted from her family (as well  as some others, although some were purchased from slavers as well and other 'sources')
c) That Teltin was making what seemed to be limited progress, and the fact that they kept on asking for 'fresh supplies.'
d) That Teltin was concealing something from him.
e) That there was a breach of security at some point and that there were some survivors. It's likely that this is where he knew what was being performed but he was too late to do anything about it other than treat the children and put them into proper care etc.
f) He recently learnt that the 'clean up crews' didn't do their job -- although I do wonder why/how they failed.

[Arijharn]

Basically, he knew that they wanted children, but not necessarily in what manner they were being used barring the obvious (to help with building biotic potential in humans).



He doesn't necessarily know that they were being exhausted in the attempts to make Jack stronger. He probably understands that while deaths might occur during their studies, it wouldn't be the rule rather than an unlikely exception.

[chris025657]

Nightwriter wrote...

1. The damage is likely permanent, the file says so. Experiments were also performed on captive asari. It implies harmful intent toward alien races. I actually felt conflicted about it, I sort of liked the idea of having some power over them if we needed it.

The file says permanent damage possible, not likely. This is beside the point however: I don't see how this proves a genocidal intent that measures up to the Reapers.

[General User]

Arijharn wrote...

INSERT POST CHAIN HERE

Cool, OK,  a few points
 
1.            The Reapers do indeed take new technology when they harvest organics, but they always harvest organics at the same stage in galactic civilization, and even then only every 50,000 years or so new technology is rare and incidental for Reapers. And, much more importantly, innovation is nonexistent.
 
b.            Big Bertha mass accelerators probably aren’t the best way to kill a Reaper, but they are one that the galactic industrial base can build without any new technology. My point was that killing a Reaper is already in our capabilities.  I’m a small-unit-commando-raid-with-fighter-bomber-support man myself. 
 
‧           Concerning Reaper barriers; they are most definitely stronger than anything our side can produce or break.  But my point was that they ARE barriers, a know technology simply a great deal stronger.  In other words, our tech difference in this vital field is less one of research and development than engineering.
 
And I agree, destroying the Citadel and the mass relay network should only be a very last resort, for a great many reasons. 
 
I get the idea that keeping the CB could well lead to an astounding insight into the Reapers, I do. But there are very valid reasons for destroying it as well. Since the advantages of keeping it are almost exclusively focused on gaining or understanding Reaper technology, and I don’t consider the tech gap to be quite as insurmountable as others do, I tend to focus on the CB advantages gives our side as a pile of rubble.

[Arijharn]

General User wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

INSERT POST CHAIN HERE

Cool, OK,  a few points
 
1.            The Reapers do indeed take new technology when they harvest organics, but they always harvest organics at the same stage in galactic civilization, and even then only every 50,000 years or so new technology is rare and incidental for Reapers. And, much more importantly, innovation is nonexistent.

This statement can't be true because we aren't at the stage of constructing mass relays ourselves unlike the Protheans who despite Vigil saying were at the 'cusp' actually had a working example between Ilos and the Citadel itself. That asari matriarch states that they should, but that doesn't really mean anything does it?
 

General User wrote...
b.            Big Bertha mass accelerators probably aren’t the best way to kill a Reaper, but they are one that the galactic industrial base can build without any new technology. My point was that killing a Reaper is already in our capabilities.  I’m a small-unit-commando-raid-with-fighter-bomber-support man myself.

I agree that Dreadnoughts will be marginalized in the upcoming conflict. Personally I think with all the talk about Humanity being great pioneers with dedicated Carrier's then the fights will be a lot more 'close quarters.'
 

General User wrote...
‧           Concerning Reaper barriers; they are most definitely stronger than anything our side can produce or break.  But my point was that they ARE barriers, a know technology simply a great deal stronger.  In other words, our tech difference in this vital field is less one of research and development than engineering.

I understood your basic point, but I'm not sure of it's effectiveness. Obviously, adopting any new technology from the Collector's is a gamble, but I'm obviously banking on the idea that it'd pay off with greater results than essentially just using trial and error with increasing the yield of 'basic' mass accelerated weaponry.

[UNAVAILABLE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

(Snipping some for brevity)

My final point on the undetectable energy signals is to reiterate our ignorance of how many they may have at their disposal. We've identified a short range field (indoctrination) and long range (quantum comm). Nothing in the game supports the assertion that it does exist, but it would suck to lose the galaxy because "oops, we never thought of that."

Now, having said that, wouldn't you agree that the best way to find out about that would be to study it and look into it? The only place in the galaxy with any hope of that is now the Collector Base.

The danger of the imaginary capability doesn't go away if you ignore it: you can either face it now, and have a chance to uncover it, or when the Reapers arrive, at which point you'll have a dozen similar problems.

I would agree that's one way to do it. My main concern about the imaginary capability is the effect it would have on tech I get from the base. If I don't take the tech then its not a concern.

This comes back to the old 'the base is an indoctrination trap', which has many old answers. Taking apart the station, carting it away in pieces for separated study, going through the Base computers with EDI to look for the device/info, using AI/VI to harvest the place, etc.

Unless I miss your point, I don't think these two arguments are equivalent. My suggestion is that blueprints, schematics stored on the base tell you how to build traps in which to trap yourself. You would have to actively study the schematics and build technology based upon them in order to fall prey to the trap.

But my thesis is concerning tech that Harbinger does want us to find. Again, I'm not talking about the physical technology built into the base, but the data stored on the computers.

This comes into a more basic problem: Cerberus has the hardware. Not only the hardware on the base, but the hardware captured before the base, and the hardware that has already been taken apart for study.

The introduction of new systems and components in the plans that weren't present in the devices already taken apart would be an immediate and significant flag, and draw notice as researchers tried to understand the difference between the two.

I agree with your point for schematics that can be compared to actual physical devices. But what about schematics for an Occulli? Or for a Reaper? Or any tech that is not physically present on the base? Without physical confirmation, all you have to go on is data left for you by Harbinger.

These are threats if the systems are copied, not if the merely the technological basis are. This might hold true if Cerberus did nothing but let the Collector Base machines make the guns for them, but at about the moment Cerberus takes the theory and executes it their own way, as they often do, it's a new system which won't have any reason to have those.

Let me offer a counter-example - the Reaper IFF. Even though we are to assume that Cerberus has reproduced them, the Normandy did not wait around for a reproduction model. Why not? Presumably because of time constraints. And it was nearly the end of the Normandy. The lesson here is that desperate people do desperate things. If time allows for proper study to be done, it will probably be done. However, once it comes down to "crunch time", I could easily see prudent study giving way to quick-n-easy, high risk solutions. Copying systems is one such high risk solution.

I'd also mark them as a relatively minor problem compared to the gains overall.

Definitely possible, but I'd reserve judgement until I see just how much damage such a system could cause.

I play the likelihood for reasonable* expectations and predictions. It's when they get extreme without support that I get grouchy.

Reasonable?!? Methinks your standards are unrealistically high. This is the internet after all.
u shood b  if u can 3v3n reed wot there sayin.

Modifié par UNAVAILABLE, 27 septembre 2010 - 03:54 .

[Nightwriter]

Arijharn wrote...

Hmm, sorry I wasn't being clear.

I think he knew these things:
a) Teltin existed and what its end purpose was (afterall, he would have approved its funding). When I say end purpose I mean - tangible gains in human biotic potential and understanding.
He knew that Jack existed and probably that she was abducted from her family (as well  as some others, although some were purchased from slavers as well and other 'sources')
c) That Teltin was making what seemed to be limited progress, and the fact that they kept on asking for 'fresh supplies.'
d) That Teltin was concealing something from him.
e) That there was a breach of security at some point and that there were some survivors. It's likely that this is where he knew what was being performed but he was too late to do anything about it other than treat the children and put them into proper care etc.
f) He recently learnt that the 'clean up crews' didn't do their job -- although I do wonder why/how they failed.

Ah, okay. Well I do wonder why he was okay with knowing so little during the project.

The mission debrief was incredibly puzzling to me because I honestly can't imagine TIM allowing the cleanup crews to miss those extremely obvious hololog terminals.

For a while I kicked around the idea that the logs were planted. TIM seemed so keen on giving Shepard the impression that he knew nothing about it and shut it down as soon as he found out. At the time I wondered why TIM would feel compelled to explain or excuse anything, or to make himself look like a good guy. Why? Guess he was worried it would affect Shepard's willingness to work with him.

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...


Ah, okay. Well I do wonder why he was okay with knowing so little during the project.

That's just it, he wasn't... that's why he was pushing so hard for them to get results. Vicious cycle you know? You join a super secret evil organisation and the megalomaniac in charge actually wants deployable sharks with laser beams.

Nightwriter wrote...
For a while I kicked around the idea that the logs were planted. TIM seemed so keen on giving Shepard the impression that he knew nothing about it and shut it down as soon as he found out. At the time I wondered why TIM would feel compelled to explain or excuse anything, or to make himself look like a good guy. Why? Guess he was worried it would affect Shepard's willingness to work with him.

I think the evidence doesn't fit this train of thought to be honest. Considering the state of disrepair, Artesh and his cronies couldn't be there for that long (maybe a couple of months?) and prior to that it's pretty undisturbed other than various nesting animals (damn those varren!). Log planting would not just need TIM to be long sighted, but it would require him to be essentially psychic imo, even omniscient.

While it's true that he needs Shephard's co-operation, I don't think he needs to go so out of his way to ensure it. I mean, despite people's misgivings of Illusive Man, you can at least trust him when he says he wants to defeat the Reapers. As long as he continues to fund and supply Shephard's operations, I doubt that Shephard really has much need to look deeper.

Modifié par Arijharn, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:28 .

[Nightwriter]

Aresh states he arrived one solar year ago. I remember thinking, "And this place still looks like this?"

As for the other matter, I wondered whether TIM had planted the logs immediately after he decided he was going to send you Jack's dossier. Clever guy he is, he might have anticipated that Jack would tell you about her experiences at Teltin and that you might investigate. However, that seems almost as hard to believe as TIM's cleanup crews leaving logs lying around.

Shandepared wrote...

Maybe they outsource their cleanup crews.

Highly unlikely. Unless he kills the cleanup crew afterward. In which case he'd still be leaving a shoddy cleanup job behind.

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

Aresh states he arrived one solar year ago. I remember thinking, "And this place still looks like this?"

As for the other matter, I wondered whether TIM had planted the logs immediately after he decided he was going to send you Jack's dossier. Clever guy he is, he might have anticipated that Jack would tell you about her experiences at Teltin and that you might investigate. However, that seems almost as hard to believe as TIM's cleanup crews leaving logs lying around.

Shandepared wrote...

Maybe they outsource their cleanup crews.

Highly unlikely. Unless he kills the cleanup crew afterward. In which case he'd still be leaving a shoddy cleanup job behind.

But...but... how could he plant the logs while it was still being 'controlled' by Aresh?

But, if he kills the clean up crews that cleans his messes, then the only ones who are making a killing is in fact the laundry company!

[Nightwriter]

Rofl.

And talk about Aresh... I swear it looked like he just got there. I don't think they should've added that he arrived one solar year ago. That Blood Pack merc talked like they'd only just entered the facility a few hours ago. Are you telling me that krogan waited around for a whole year before he began to suspect there was no worthwhile salvage there?

That he believed some random guy's word is even weirder. At least Aresh has the excuse of being crazy.

[Purge the heathens]

Uhm...



Do we even know how much tech is left in the Collector base? Not as a con or pro, just out of curiosity. The Reapers seem to take at least some precautions to prevent their technology from falling into the enemy's hands. Possessed Saren completely dissolved and the Praetorian's codex entry explicitly mentions that they self-destruct upon death without leaving the tiniest shred behind. If you decide to keep the base, couldn't it be that, during its last moments while working the consoles, the Collector General was deleting as many files as possible or something similar? That wouldn't render the base completely useless, but certainly reduce the gains from keeping it. Also a convenient way to reduce the decision's impact in ME3. I mean, saving or killing the Council didn't critically matter in ME2 even though it was the great endgame choice.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

The krogan mercs might have been more recent.

Aresh: "I hired these mercs and came back almost a solar year ago."

So you can see why I'm like .