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[Arijharn]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Urgh. I am quite frustrated. I go to length to explain how I agree that the base should be kept and how it would have been had I been able to give it to anybody but Cerberus and yet you still don't view my post from that perspective. I explain that I did it because TIM was too impulsive and reckless to logically assess the consequences of failure and offer up two unlikely scenarios that are nevertheless possible. These scenarios, however unlikely, need to be taken into consideration when dealing with Cerberus because they just don't care about caution.

And yet it's even more pointless to speculate on the basis of what if's, because Cerberus is the one you got. I mean, so friggin what if you got only Cerberus as a benefactor? You still have to fight the Reapers.
This is what's frustrating to me. It's that you want to be picky when you're essentially a beggar.
How on Earth would you even give it to the Council races anyway? It's in the galactic core and the only entrance is the Omega-4 relay which lies in the heart of the Terminus Systems which you and I both know that the Council wouldn't touch with a barge poll. See, this is actually a benefit of working with a conspiracy/black ops organisation, it's precisely because they're 'rogue' that they don't give the slightest about it.

Even if TIM could be trusted to act logically, which he can't, his people would be the ones doing the experiments, and so far it is completely obvious they would throw caution to the wind (Rachni, Thorian Creepers, Husks, and Jack).

There is no basis as far as I can see to pre-emptively decide whether TIM is less likely to act 'logically' than the Citadel Council. How exactly did they throw 'caution to the wind' because I seem to remember that things only went pear-shaped when a hotshot Spectre arrived to turn off shields and mess things up, and not beforehand... in which case this is a failure of there's to deal with Shephard's arrival, but not of their experiments.

I provide proof of the possible consequences and clearly state that I didn't use it to make the initial decision but am using it to prove the validity of my logic.  The Reaper Avatar business is exactly the kind of stupid experiments I feared that Cerberus would try, and I was right to fear it.

You can not provide 'proof to possible consequences' because that's a logical fallacy. You may have beliefs of what possible consequences could be, but don't confuse opinion with fact.
While TIM may be accused of petty vengeance against Grayson as I understand it, Indoctrination needs to be studied, this is the simple truth. The only reason anyone think's it stupid is because the Turian's interfered, and Grayson got out, which wouldn't have happened if the Turian's didn't. 

And it is not logical to risk everything, time to catch up, time to formulate strategies, time to organize resistance, time form alliances, and complete annihilation for the possibility of success.  If something on the base backfires and gains the advantage, it's all over. The Reapers come and destroy everything.

This is of course where we have contention, I think it's illogical (and as I personally see it; stupid (and don't assume that because you came to this thought that I think you are) ) to not do what you can before the Reapers even turn up in the first place to be the greater error. 
If you do nothing in preparation of the Reapers, then and when they come and destroy everything then you have failed galactic 'stability.'

If caution fails and the combined forces of the galaxy can't defend against the reapers, then the galaxy is destroyed, but at least the species' of the galaxy had the chance to fight back with everything they had.

You have purposely skewed your arguments here, why is it that you have 'fought with everythign they had' whereas if they studied the base and it 'blew up' then they hadn't? 

If I'm right, then the galaxy is in the best political position to fight back and win.
If you are right, we have the best tech to fight back and win.

No, because keeping the base does not automatically preclude the co-operation between Cerberus (who wouldn't be 'trading' as Cerberus, but rather filtering it's tech to the Alliance) and other species. Bear in mind that choosing to keep the base also doesn't automatically mean that you choose all the other Renegade responses as well. For example; I saved the Council, saved the Rachni queen and the colonies and I am (hopefully) building up alliances with Wrex and his Krogan crew, the Quarian's and even the Geth.
So no, I resent strongly the position that one size fits all... because if I'm right I have the best political position and the best tech. Incidentally, the potential to break through a Reapers defences isn't going to hinge on whether you have the 'best political position' but rather if you have the 'best tech.' If you have the best 'political position' aren't you basically arguing that you're going to throw men at the Reapers until they reach their kill limit and auto-shutdown? 

I haven't replied to the rest of your post because I feel that I have basically rolled up your points into preceeding paragraphs.

[General User]

Arijharn wrote...

General User wrote...

Stick with cold calculation, it's what renegades do best.  Leave the idealism to the paragons.
  

This is 'cold calculation'; work together or die. Cerberus isn't a public face despite what the game seems to portray, therefore it would be ridiculous for the other species to ostracise the potential support of the Alliance (and we know that the Alliance is one of if not the current strongest standing navy in the universe).

It wouldn’t be ridiculous, it would be stupid of them to do so! “Suicidal-ly” stupid infact, but if the Citadel Council is any measure to go by, galactic level idiocy is kinda the MO of the Council governments. These people literally had a Reaper land on top of them and they still don’t believe in Reapers! They need to be removed from power.

The idealism comes in when postulating that a group of people who have been nothing short of fools on this matter will suddenly become wise once the liquid tungsten alloy starts flying. Much more likely that they'll panic, reject help and even lash out at humanity.  You have to get them earlier, get them committed on a philosophical level beforehand. 
 
A series of bad enough losses can break any alliance, but an alliance held together only by necessity is far weaker, potentially fatally. Even to the point of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Modifié par General User, 08 octobre 2010 - 02:23 .

[Arijharn]

General User wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

General User wrote...

Stick with cold calculation, it's what renegades do best.  Leave the idealism to the paragons.
  

This is 'cold calculation'; work together or die. Cerberus isn't a public face despite what the game seems to portray, therefore it would be ridiculous for the other species to ostracise the potential support of the Alliance (and we know that the Alliance is one of if not the current strongest standing navy in the universe).

It wouldn’t be ridiculous, it would be stupid of them to do so! “Suicidal-ly” stupid infact, but if the Citadel Council is any measure to go by, galactic level idiocy is kinda the MO of the Council governments. These people literally had a Reaper land on top of them and they still don’t believe in Reapers! They need to be removed from power.

The idealism comes in when postulating that a group of people who have been nothing short of fools on this matter will suddenly become wise once the liquid tungsten alloy starts flying. Much more likely that they'll panic, reject help and even lash out at humanity.  You have to get them earlier, get them committed on a philosophical level beforehand. 
 
A series of bad enough losses can break any alliance, but an alliance held together only by necessity is far weaker, potentially fatally. Even to the point of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I see what you're saying, but I don't see where the presumption lies that when you have scientists working on the base you don't also have say Shephard (or rather, qualified negotiator's) greasing up the other species through trade or military matters to better facilitate co-operation all while that's going on. In fact, I would say that using Shephard in the situation is probably a bad thing to do (despite how awesome he was to them during the Siege of the Citadel) because they still questioned his sanity... publicly

Basically, you could grease them up in other methods other than repeating the mantra of the 'world is ending, the Reapers are coming!', gaining the military alliances you need (or build on them) in preparation. Ideally you would even have Liara ideally placed to work towards this capacity from other directions too.

When the Reapers start flying and the liquid tungsten bolts start spewing, you wouldn't even need the Council but rather the support of the various Admirals, all of which have formed close partnerships beforehand due to either your actions (or your negotiators) well in advance of the actual threat.

[GuardianAngel470]

I didn't intentionally skew the argument, I'm just not as knowledgeable of your reasoning as my own.



And I believe this is an example of why the geth are sentient. Legion describes how a mobile platform who has a certain experience set will make a different decision based on the same information. I think that we are both right in that we both have thought out our position and made the decision that makes the most logical sense to us. We have different experience sets and as such will make different decisions.



If ever there were one, /end thread

[Cryo84]

I think the biggest issue here that no one is talking about is what happens if the reapers win? Sure, this current civilization gets wiped out, but how many more after it? Even if it bones us in the end, we have a RESPONSIBILITY to use what ever we can to prevent the CYCLE from going on and on and on...

[Frybread76]

Where does the quest to salvage Reaper tech stop? Does Cerberus just study Collector weapons, or do they go all the way and study how a Reaper is made? I mean, if making Reapers is the best way to counter the Reaper invasion, that would be what a Renegade Shepard would choose, right? The morals or ethics be damned.

[Arijharn]

I'm not sure if I want the added responsibility of ensuring that I stop the Reapers from attacking those after us, but I'll gladly take the mantle for the current extinction cycle.

[General User]

Arijharn wrote...

General User wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

General User wrote...

Stick with cold calculation, it's what renegades do best.  Leave the idealism to the paragons.
  

This is 'cold calculation'; work together or die. Cerberus isn't a public face despite what the game seems to portray, therefore it would be ridiculous for the other species to ostracise the potential support of the Alliance (and we know that the Alliance is one of if not the current strongest standing navy in the universe).

It wouldn’t be ridiculous, it would be stupid of them to do so! “Suicidal-ly” stupid infact, but if the Citadel Council is any measure to go by, galactic level idiocy is kinda the MO of the Council governments. These people literally had a Reaper land on top of them and they still don’t believe in Reapers! They need to be removed from power.

The idealism comes in when postulating that a group of people who have been nothing short of fools on this matter will suddenly become wise once the liquid tungsten alloy starts flying. Much more likely that they'll panic, reject help and even lash out at humanity.  You have to get them earlier, get them committed on a philosophical level beforehand. 
 
A series of bad enough losses can break any alliance, but an alliance held together only by necessity is far weaker, potentially fatally. Even to the point of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I see what you're saying, but I don't see where the presumption lies that when you have scientists working on the base you don't also have say Shephard (or rather, qualified negotiator's) greasing up the other species through trade or military matters to better facilitate co-operation all while that's going on. In fact, I would say that using Shephard in the situation is probably a bad thing to do (despite how awesome he was to them during the Siege of the Citadel) because they still questioned his sanity... publicly

Basically, you could grease them up in other methods other than repeating the mantra of the 'world is ending, the Reapers are coming!', gaining the military alliances you need (or build on them) in preparation. Ideally you would even have Liara ideally placed to work towards this capacity from other directions too.

When the Reapers start flying and the liquid tungsten bolts start spewing, you wouldn't even need the Council but rather the support of the various Admirals, all of which have formed close partnerships beforehand due to either your actions (or your negotiators) well in advance of the actual threat.

I think I see what you’re getting at, essentially recruiting the various citadel races/factions individually instead of relying on the Council to speak for them. I’m definitely on board with that. On page 20 of this forum I posted a bit of an outline how to do this from a paragon/bas-boomer angle, I love to see one posted from a renegade/base-keeper angle! I’m not saying it has to be as long, but I love political strategy.
 
What exactly does “greasing up” entail? Varying degrees of access to the fruits of the CB? Wouldn’t every member the le Grande Entente need full access to the best bits anyway, if they are to be used effectively?
 
Bribes and coercion maybe (this is a joint Cerberus-Shadow Broker op after all). Now that’s considering the political angles! If it’s only to remove/neutralize specific problem children, then I’m right there with you, but not if it is or becomes a matter of general tactics.  It’s my observation that public figures receptive to bribery tend to be deficient in other areas of leadership, often dramatically so. I cannot believe that ADM. Hackett, David Anderson, and (maybe) a few dalatrases(sp?) and matriarchs represent the sum total of sane galactic level military and political leadership. There have to be others out there who can be empowered.
 
Aren’t you worried that the other shoe will drop? That if races or factions only join in alliance because they feel they have no choice will leave at what they feel is the first opportunity, whether or not that opportunity is in anyone else’s best interest or not? 
 
All the more so when their respective publics find out that their own leadership/establishment has cut sweetheart deals with some rather nasty humans (a race they were never too fond of to begin with).
 For example, if the largesse of an intact CB is not distributed equally that would generate profound resentment among various races (turians, batarians, and quarians are my best guesses). And if a Reaper comes along, promising the moon, stars, immunity from extermination, and weapons every bit as good as what the humans got from their precious CB… one or more of those races, or factions thereof are going to break.


Look at it from their side: the humans are a known threat which suddenly became much more threatening since they got ahold of that damn CB.  So if someone comes along who promises to neutalize the humans...  Besides who believes all those old fables about "Reapers" anyway?  Most of it's probably just human propaganda.

[RiouHotaru]

One thing that I think people don't take into consideration is, Paragons who destroy the base aren't necessarily being idealistic. As far as my Shepards are concerned, putting aside all metagaming, here is what goes through their minds when determining whether or not to keep or blow the base:



1) Does the base potentially have useful tech BESIDES the ability to make a Reaper that could benefit my crusade against the Reapers?



2) If it does, do I think it could be understood/utilizied/reverse-engineered within a reasonable period of time?



and the big one:



3) Can I trust TIM with it?



That's the risk analysis that would go through my mind, it's what I did on my first playthrough, since I had no spoilers, hadn't read Redemption, and Retribution was still on the drawing board, so there was no metagaming involved.



The issue with me, is the last question. I knew that I wouldn't be able to give the base to anyone else. As soon as TIM knew the relay was safely useable, it would only be a matter of time before Cerberus would get it. And my Shepards just don't. Trust. TIM. It's as simple as that. They have no reason to trust him or his intentions. He doesn't exactly deny the claim that he might make his own Reaper. And to the best knowledge of my Shepards, that's all the base is good for.



The basis of the argument of keeping the base or not, IMO, depends largely on whether you support Cerberus or not. If you don't trust Cerberus, you wouldn't want to give them the base, no matter how valuable it might be.

[smudboy]

1) It must have info and tech on how to make a Reaper. Because that's what it was designed to do.

2) What is a "reasonable amount of time?" Before the Reapers show up? It's been two years since we were expecting them. Reapers operate on schedules in the thousands of years. Who the flying hell knows when.

3) Irrelevant.



Yes. We realize all people who blow up the base dislike TIM. That's their #1 reason. It also proves to us these people cannot think past their nose.

[Arijharn]

I'll argue how I'd personally do it, but not what I think would actually happen in game.



The way I see it, if you keep the CB you can disseminate a great deal of technical schematics to the other species if only because you weaken your position if they become overly dependent upon your military prowess in the situation. For example, imagine for example if the SA had mass produced Thanix weapons (efficiently) whereas the Turian's haven't... you weaken your position potentially by not sharing that data because you would be responsible for the lions share of galactic defence which would spread out your forces even more so than what would be what I'd call 'prudent,' especially since the Systems Alliance military bulk is based on the maxim of rapid defence, not defensive blocks, but when it does (like key 'phase gate nexuses') it's built from mass ranks etc.



I doubt that TIM would share all technological secrets of course, so I'll just assume that as a given, but it's in everyone's best interests (yes, even TIM's) to share, because if the Reapers aren't stopped, then any goals that TIM has wouldn't be able to be met anyway... on the basis that we'd be extinct... 50,000+ years from now the next species would be looking at our bones in their museums and wonder 'what happened' and 'wow, they're damn ugly!'



When I say 'greasing up' I mean trading stuff for favours, which isn't necessarily weapons (like Collector based designs... although those designs would very much be eye-brow raising) but stuff like decreased costs for medi-gel, details for 'expendable' locations of Cerberus interests (like, perhaps a stockpile of information?) and yes, bribery and coercion, even if necessary, assassination.



I would imagine that this would be the information you'd have to share in regards to CB designs etc; Indoctrination defenses as well as technical schematics from Reaper designs, such as their gross tonnage, shield generation strength (and the power levels to breach and what weapon is best suited for example). As complete information as possible to empower all races equal measure of protection against the Reapers and to formulate effective responses, I would also mass-produce the Reaper IFF signals to help skirt any potential Reaper 'lockdown' on the oft chance that either the Reapers reach the Citadel or are able to individually isolate systems when they arrive.



I think the main issue is that any and all negotiations will have to be done by the Alliance. Cerberus' hand shouldn't be suspected or if it is, then it would be unable to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The chance that the shoe will drop though is always there though, but this would be the case even with an anti-Cerberus Shephard as well (because they still worked with Cerberus in a large capacity) so I guess it would have to be a necessary risk to take.



Also, if possible I'd try to use the media as some sort of tool to stress the lasting importance of these deals as well to sway public opinion against any potential Reaper 'indoctrination' (har har...)



If I had my way then I would leak as much intel as I could from the CB (though not all, I am a pro-humanist really. Even as the fact that Garrus is my confirmed bromance, as awesome as he is, I can't realistically expect that same level of awesome from the rest of the Turian species). Basically what I'd strive for is some semblance of the status quo... it's just that status quo has been moved up, so to speak.

[Arijharn]

I think the biggest decisions of all though would be faced by paragons and renegades alike, to decide which systems will have to die and which to support and reinforce.

[RiouHotaru]

smudboy wrote...

1) It must have info and tech on how to make a Reaper. Because that's what it was designed to do.
2) What is a "reasonable amount of time?" Before the Reapers show up? It's been two years since we were expecting them. Reapers operate on schedules in the thousands of years. Who the flying hell knows when.
3) Irrelevant.

Yes. We realize all people who blow up the base dislike TIM. That's their #1 reason. It also proves to us these people cannot think past their nose.

...And you're missing the point, #3 is VERY relevant.  Why in the world would I possibly give a weapon to someone I couldn't trust with my life?  TIM very obviously lied multiple times about issues of rather big importance.  He hasn't fostered any trust or support in me.  Why, therefore, would I let him have something this potentially dangrous?  You can't make such decisions in an emotional void.  You can't be entirely objective about this decision, or any decision.  Your personal preferences/bias will always be present.  The fact you give him the base means you trust him to use it properly on some level.

And I take some offense at being labelled as one of those "people" who "can't think past their nose."

[Arijharn]

You should trust TIM insofar as he can be expected to help against the Reapers imo. You should trust him against the Reapers insofar as that it's his head on the block too, so you should expect him to act accordingly (or rather, predictably)



If the war has been won, then you should examine TIM more closely for any misgivings you have. TIM would probably expect this of you and would probably be doing the same anyway. TIM, in any case, would be in a much worse off position than you, since presumably at this point you'd have the full resources of the Council behind you.

[RiouHotaru]

Arijharn wrote...

You should trust TIM insofar as he can be expected to help against the Reapers imo. You should trust him against the Reapers insofar as that it's his head on the block too, so you should expect him to act accordingly (or rather, predictably)

If the war has been won, then you should examine TIM more closely for any misgivings you have. TIM would probably expect this of you and would probably be doing the same anyway. TIM, in any case, would be in a much worse off position than you, since presumably at this point you'd have the full resources of the Council behind you.

You have a point, but at the time, that is, in the heart of the Collector Base, when a decision has to be made right that moment, I can only go with past experience.  And past experience says I can't trust TIM.  Also, the game doesn't seem to give you any leeway, either you're with TIM and Cerberus whole-heartedly, or you're not.

[Arijharn]

Nope; you can still tell him to make sure he's in line or he's 'out' (whatever that means). I think, all things said, that he depends on you more than you need him at this point, because he's just a shadow puppeteer, and you're this all conquering war hero that the people respect/fear.

TIM does have influence independently of you, but he personally does not have influence. He acts through intermediaries due to his nature, not only that... but you would totally kick his ass if the chips were down and he was fighting you.

[GodWood]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Also, the game doesn't seem to give you any leeway, either you're with TIM and Cerberus whole-heartedly, or you're not.

Thats simply not true, Shepard can still remain distrustful and cautious of TIM whilst still working with him.

[RiouHotaru]

Okay, you two have a point. The fact is, when it comes down to the base you either can: A) Give it to him, or Blow it up and flip him the bird. There's nothing in between.



Ugh. Damn headache making it hard to think. Lemme get a glass some water, some aspirin, and I'll be back!

[GuardianAngel470]

Come to think of it, I destroy the Collector base for the same reason I destroy the Heretic geth. The risk of failure is too high.

[Arijharn]

I rewrite the Geth... but I also have Overlord too... I still feel bad about what I did to David though

[Schneidend]

GodWood wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Also, the game doesn't seem to give you any leeway, either you're with TIM and Cerberus whole-heartedly, or you're not.

Thats simply not true, Shepard can still remain distrustful and cautious of TIM whilst still working with him.

This. You're given many opportunities to be distrusting, neutral, or grudgingly willing yet grateful on the subject.

[pf17456]

GodWood wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Also, the game doesn't seem to give you any leeway, either you're with TIM and Cerberus whole-heartedly, or you're not.

Thats simply not true, Shepard can still remain distrustful and cautious of TIM whilst still working with him.

That is not quite true either. Shepard is not working 'with' TIM. Shepard is working 'for' TIM, as in employee, tool, lap dog or puppet. Shepard's relationship with TIM is not one of partnership, it is one of servitude that borders on ownership with the 'I brought you back' comments.

[Arijharn]

Shephard could, if he thought it was essential, leave... although there are plenty of reasons why he doesn't. TIM just keeps on dangling carrots imo, but that isn't really the same as 'ownership' imo, although I may just be pedantic on this issue.

[RiouHotaru]

Schneidend wrote...

GodWood wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Also, the game doesn't seem to give you any leeway, either you're with TIM and Cerberus whole-heartedly, or you're not.

Thats simply not true, Shepard can still remain distrustful and cautious of TIM whilst still working with him.

This. You're given many opportunities to be distrusting, neutral, or grudgingly willing yet grateful on the subject.

I admitted earlier that my earlier statement wasn't completely accurate, but when it comes to the base, it's an either/or.  Either you believe him and hand the base over, or you don't trust him and blow it up.  You can't grudgingly admit he's right.  Or falter and think he's wrong.

[pf17456]

Arijharn wrote...

Shephard could, if he thought it was essential, leave... although there are plenty of reasons why he doesn't. TIM just keeps on dangling carrots imo, but that isn't really the same as 'ownership' imo, although I may just be pedantic on this issue.

The option to leave doesn't really exist in the game, it's suggested a couple of times early on but without the possibility of follow through. Aside from complaining the only action Shepard can take in the game to assert independence is to blow up the base.