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The Collector Base Argument Thread: Because It's Going To Happen, So It Might As Well Be In One Place (tm)


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#1251
Arijharn

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pf17456 wrote...
The option to leave doesn't really exist in the game, it's suggested a couple of times early on but without the possibility of follow through. Aside from complaining the only action Shepard can take in the game to assert independence is to blow up the base. 


The reason it doesn't exist in game though is because Shephard knows doing so would be folly. Shephard knows that at the time he has no other resources due to political considerations (the Alliance 'tearing apart everything he said', the Council convincing themselves that Shephard is unhinged and that the Reapers are a myth started by Saren). He also knows that colonies are disappearing and that it becomes clear that eventually the Collector's are working for the Reapers as proxy agents, just like how the Vorcha were working for the Collector's as their proxy agents in turn. Shephard knows that as distasteful as it is, he is forced to work with Cerberus for the greater good until potentially TIM asks him to vault over one hurdle too many.

#1252
pf17456

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Arijharn wrote...

pf17456 wrote...
The option to leave doesn't really exist in the game, it's suggested a couple of times early on but without the possibility of follow through. Aside from complaining the only action Shepard can take in the game to assert independence is to blow up the base. 


The reason it doesn't exist in game though is because Shephard knows doing so would be folly. Shephard knows that at the time he has no other resources due to political considerations (the Alliance 'tearing apart everything he said', the Council convincing themselves that Shephard is unhinged and that the Reapers are a myth started by Saren). He also knows that colonies are disappearing and that it becomes clear that eventually the Collector's are working for the Reapers as proxy agents, just like how the Vorcha were working for the Collector's as their proxy agents in turn. Shephard knows that as distasteful as it is, he is forced to work with Cerberus for the greater good until potentially TIM asks him to vault over one hurdle too many.



For many that hurdle was the collector base.

#1253
Arijharn

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pf17456 wrote...

For many that hurdle was the collector base.


Yes, I don't dispute that fact. I'm merely saying that beforehand it wasn't in Shep's best interests to leave despite TIM saying that he has the option at the start. Basically I'm saying that TIM had enough reasons to believe that he had enough to make Shephard believe staying was to his/her best interests.

The game isn't a sandbox after all.

#1254
GodWood

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pf17456 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Also, the game doesn't seem to give you any leeway, either you're with TIM and Cerberus whole-heartedly, or you're not.

Thats simply not true, Shepard can still remain distrustful and cautious of TIM whilst still working with him.

That is not quite true either. Shepard is not working 'with' TIM. Shepard is working 'for' TIM, as in employee, tool, lap dog or puppet. Shepard's relationship with TIM is not one of partnership, it is one of servitude that borders on ownership with the 'I brought you back' comments.

That may have been the case with your Shepard but not mine.
He works with Cerberus, not for them.

#1255
pf17456

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GodWood wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Also, the game doesn't seem to give you any leeway, either you're with TIM and Cerberus whole-heartedly, or you're not.

Thats simply not true, Shepard can still remain distrustful and cautious of TIM whilst still working with him.

That is not quite true either. Shepard is not working 'with' TIM. Shepard is working 'for' TIM, as in employee, tool, lap dog or puppet. Shepard's relationship with TIM is not one of partnership, it is one of servitude that borders on ownership with the 'I brought you back' comments.

That may have been the case with your Shepard but not mine.
He works with Cerberus, not for them.


Your 'boss' lets you use his ship, dismisses your interests in recruting your team, tells you who to take with you and gives you orders about where to go and what to do. You are not included in any decisions and you are not provided with all of the information regarding the missions you are dispatched to. You even get a paycheck after each job you do. Shepard works for TIM. TIM is Shepard's boss.

#1256
Elite Midget

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You forgot the part where TIM never meets Shepard face to face of the fact that he has the Normandy rigged up so that he can spy on Shepard and his crew. EDI is a spy and Kelly could also be sending in 'reports' to TIM as well. After all, she's very loyal to Cerberus and I doubt she could say no to TIM.

#1257
GodWood

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pf17456 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Also, the game doesn't seem to give you any leeway, either you're with TIM and Cerberus whole-heartedly, or you're not.

Thats simply not true, Shepard can still remain distrustful and cautious of TIM whilst still working with him.

That is not quite true either. Shepard is not working 'with' TIM. Shepard is working 'for' TIM, as in employee, tool, lap dog or puppet. Shepard's relationship with TIM is not one of partnership, it is one of servitude that borders on ownership with the 'I brought you back' comments.

That may have been the case with your Shepard but not mine.
He works with Cerberus, not for them.

Your 'boss' lets you use his ship,

So? I can't work with Cerberus] and use their ship?

dismisses your interests in recruting your team,

I'm assuming you mean the ME1 team, the team which you recruit a third of whilst the rest turn you down. 

tells you who to take with you and gives you orders about where to go and what to do.

If you mean the dossiers what'd you rather he do "Theres a whole ****in galaxy out there, find your own damn specialists", and of course he tells you where to go, he's your source of information. Would you rather Shepard having to figure it out all on his own.  

You are not included in any decisions

Examples? From what I've seen Shepard is allowed to go about missions as he sees fit 

and you are not provided with all of the information regarding the missions you are dispatched to.

Indeed your not, I don't see why this means Shepard instead works for as opposed to with Cerberus. 

You even get a paycheck after each job you do. Shepard works for TIM. TIM is Shepard's boss.

Then explain to me what it would take for it to be considered working with as opposed to working for Cerberus.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 octobre 2010 - 08:11 .


#1258
Elite Midget

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Pretty sure if you were working with TIM than you wouldn't be spied on 24/7, lied to constantly to get what TIM wants, paid for 'doing a good job', being told where to go, who to recruit, never filled in on any research Cerberus has done or the current research cells they have running amoke, and that you have no say on what Cerberus does with what you send them. Not to mention that he says you're free to go at the start of the game but in fact you aren't. Hence why you're told to be a good boy/girl and check out Freedom's Progress.

Yep, you're 'totally' working with him. Yeah...

Not. You're working under TIM. You aren't partners or the such. You're his latest toy and that's as far as the relationship goes.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 08 octobre 2010 - 08:19 .


#1259
GodWood

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Elite Midget wrote...
Pretty sure if you were working with TIM than you wouldn't be spied on 24/7, lied to constantly to get what TIM wants, paid for 'doing a good job', being told where to go, who to recruit, never filled in on any research Cerberus has done or the current research cells they have running amoke, and that you have no say on what Cerberus does with what you send them. Not to mention that he says you're free to go at the start of the game but in fact you aren't. Hence why you're told to be a good boy/girl and check out Freedom's Progress.

Not bothering answering that **** individualy again.
He gives you direction. Thats his job.
That'd be like saying if Liara becomes Shepard's source of information in ME3 Shepard is now working for Liara.

Yep, you're 'totally' working with him. Yeah...
Not. You're working under TIM. You aren't partners or the such. You're his latest toy and that's as far as the relationship goes.

I never said the Shepard TIM relationship is at all akin to a partnership, [my] Shepard is is working with Cerberus and simply utilizing the resources he has at hand.

#1260
Arijharn

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Working with means that you're utilizing his resources, working for means that you subscribe to his philosophies. This is what I (and I believe GodWood) are saying.



If you subscribe to his philosophies you are both working for and with him, but the opposite; working with, just entails you using his resources.

#1261
Arijharn

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More to the point; theoretically you would be free not to accept the direction he gives you, but that would be a terribly boring game no?

#1262
scarface71795

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lets look at it this way

Both the alliance and cerberus are both going to get to the same place

But cerberus is using a car and the alliance is just walking

The end justifies the means when the end would be destroying the reapers and saving the galaxy

#1263
pf17456

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Arijharn wrote...

Working with means that you're utilizing his resources, working for means that you subscribe to his philosophies. This is what I (and I believe GodWood) are saying.

If you subscribe to his philosophies you are both working for and with him, but the opposite; working with, just entails you using his resources.



Working with implies an equal partnership, as where Liara says 'come look at the information here' offering access to all of the information and discussing it.

Working for implies that you do what you're told, as where TIM says 'We've got them, you're going here and the course is already laid in'  TIM afterward lets you know it was a trap but didn't trust you enough to tell you. "you understand'      This has nothing at all to do with agreeing with Cerebrus philosophy. 

The decision about the collector base is where you get to choose to either become your own boss or release control and/or responsibility to your boss TIM 

#1264
pf17456

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scarface71795 wrote...

lets look at it this way
Both the alliance and cerberus are both going to get to the same place
But cerberus is using a car and the alliance is just walking
The end justifies the means when the end would be destroying the reapers and saving the galaxy



and Shepard is the cerebrus chauffeur

#1265
Dean_the_Young

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Frybread76 wrote...

Where does the quest to salvage Reaper tech stop? Does Cerberus just study Collector weapons, or do they go all the way and study how a Reaper is made? I mean, if making Reapers is the best way to counter the Reaper invasion, that would be what a Renegade Shepard would choose, right? The morals or ethics be damned.

If it was.

But it isn't.

So it's moot.

#1266
Dean_the_Young

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RiouHotaru wrote...

smudboy wrote...

1) It must have info and tech on how to make a Reaper. Because that's what it was designed to do.
2) What is a "reasonable amount of time?" Before the Reapers show up? It's been two years since we were expecting them. Reapers operate on schedules in the thousands of years. Who the flying hell knows when.
3) Irrelevant.

Yes. We realize all people who blow up the base dislike TIM. That's their #1 reason. It also proves to us these people cannot think past their nose.



...And you're missing the point, #3 is VERY relevant.  Why in the world would I possibly give a weapon to someone I couldn't trust with my life?  TIM very obviously lied multiple times about issues of rather big importance.  He hasn't fostered any trust or support in me.  Why, therefore, would I let him have something this potentially dangrous?  You can't make such decisions in an emotional void.  You can't be entirely objective about this decision, or any decision.  Your personal preferences/bias will always be present.  The fact you give him the base means you trust him to use it properly on some level.

And I take some offense at being labelled as one of those "people" who "can't think past their nose."

You trusted your squad with your life the moment you recruited them?

I mean, Samara I could maybe understand, since she has that entire 'I'm all but a slave to your commands,' but Jack? Grunt? Miranda? 

#1267
Zulu_DFA

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Dean_the_Young wrote...
Grunt? 


Yeah, funny how many people that can't trust TIM find it so easy to trust their Krogan buddies. After the first one trains a gun at them and the second tries to stomp over the moment he sees them.

At least of one thing you can be sure about TIM. If he ever stabs you in the back, he'll do it for a reason.

#1268
Mr. Gogeta34

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Regarding working "WITH" Cerberus vs "FOR" Cerberus:



I'm working "WITH" Cerberus. He spies on the ship... but that's his ship... how much money do you think went in there. I know if I spent that much on my car, I'd watch the guy I don't personally know and make sure he doesn't damage it or do something stupid with it. Plus, he cannot monitor you outside of the ship without some other means.



Secondly, you use his resources, that's not the same as employment. You both want to stop the Reapers, he's offering the only way and means to do so... so you work "with" him toward that end.



The Dossiers are there to aid you. You could look for your own team (and basically did), but TIM basically called it that most if not all wouldn't be available.



Those who destroy the base should know full-well that you can say "no" to TIM should you disagree while still working with him to stop the Reapers. Sure if you blow the base he may be a little more hostile but TIM takes the Reapers seriously enough to be a little ticked from you destroying such a blue moon resource.

#1269
Mr. Gogeta34

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Grunt? 


Yeah, funny how many people that can't trust TIM find it so easy to trust their Krogan buddies. After the first one trains a gun at them and the second tries to stomp over the moment he sees them.

At least of one thing you can be sure about TIM. If he ever stabs you in the back, he'll do it for a reason.


Lets also not forget that it was TIM who stopped Miranda from putting a control chip inside of Shepard's head...

#1270
Dean_the_Young

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General User wrote...
I thought the Council considers Cerberus an enemy, hence their reaction to finding out Shepard was alive and working with them. It was also also why Anderson didn’t share with Shepard any information regarding Kaiden/Ashley and his/her mission.
 
Cerberus might not consider the Council an enemy per se, I got the distinct impression that Cerberus views existing power structures as organizations to be co-opted, corrupted, or controlled, to one degree or another.  Mutual antagonism evident.

This is correct. The Council (and large parts of the Alliance) don't like/trust Cerberus. But what you said before was that Cerberus was an enemy of the Council.

Every organization in the universe thinks the existing power structure is to be co-opted (the Council principal for subordinate races) or controlled (the Council species on maintaining control of the Council system). The entire basis of you becoming a Spectre in ME1 was so that the Alliance could advance up the system and defend its interests better.

Cerberus wants the system to change in humanity's favor. But every other species wants things to shift or stay stagnant in their favor as well. It's not a novel or even hateful idea.

I should have been clearer, when I spoke of joining the war effort in a subservient role, I meant to humans in general, and Shepard, David Anderson and ADM. Hackett in specific. Those humans could be wearing Cerberus (will be most unpopular), Alliance (might win a few more friends with this one), or “other” (my personal favorite) uniforms. Every race has something to contribute, the human contribution is leadership, one way or another.

If you let the Council die, humans are going to be the primary leaders regardless of Cerberus and the Collector Base: you either have an all-human Council, or a human-led multi-racial Council.

The Human's contribution to Galactic Defense is going to be... galactic defense. Military might. Largely the same reason they were becoming powerful in the first place.

 
Cerberus is organized into task oriented cells, the “150 people” figure represents the current manning of those cells. The actual human-resources Cerberus can leverage must be far greater. 150 people isn’t even enough to operate a single respectable front company (of which Cerberus operates several), let alone undertake diverse intelligence ops galaxy wide.

You know, I actually completely agree with you that the figure makes no sense, and probably doesn't include their front corporations and intelligence networks. But even if we expand the manpower they can move and use to, say, a thousand, it's still a drop in a bucket.
 

Do you mean that that Council would have to (and probably wouldn’t want to, for fear of ending their personal political careers) go public about any deal they made with Cerberus? Well, no they wouldn’t have to, but they’d need a hell of a cover story is the base is to be fully exploited as the tech goldmine it seems to be.  ANy suggestions as to what might work?

Cerberus wouldn't need to talk about the the tech goldmine. Instead, they can farm it out in much the same way they presumably already forward their tech advances to the Alliance.

So say Cerberus has, oh, a biotic amp advancement, a new type of weapon targeting system a decade ahead of the old (a cited Collector bargaining chip), indoctrination defense research, have figured out how to make their own (loyal!) Husks, and come out with a new and improved particle hand-held weapon.

Cerberus doesn't need to come out and say 'We have this from a secret base! Who wants some?' They can have their agents in the Ascension Project give the data that allows the civilian, not-at-all-Cerberus project to 'make a breakthrough.' Then a Systems Alliance military research lab quietly comes out with a prototype targeting program that can be installed in increasing number of Alliance ships. While this is going on, back-room deals with the Salarians gives them more information on Indoctrination than they have already researched, and sees that they share the information with the Council. And back on Noveria, a corporate world with a large multi-species population dedicated to semi-illegal dangerous research, Exo-Geni comes out with Husks as 'repurposed Geth technology'. And during this time, a Cerberus front-company begins selling a cutting-edge direct energy weapon on the open market, while Cerberus's secret gun-smuggling operation (mentioned in the Dossiers) produces even more and funnels them towards human interest groups.

None of these are especially amazing, noticable, or linked, unless you already know, and none of them really justify attacking the Alliance: biotics/military research is the point of Alliance R&D programs, no one can accuse the Alliance of being behind something the Salarians are pressed (extorted?) to share, Noveria exists to study dangerous technology like what the Geth have been credited to have for years, and given that direct-energy weapons are a infant technology in ME1, a company, even a human company, coming out with a better product is expected over time.

The number of ways Cerberus can spread its technology out is massive. It could even dump desired data onto the extranet and bring everyone's attention to it to get it spread around. It doesn't require anyone even knowing that there's something untoward going on: technological revolutions come and go, and if the Humans, always recognized as an inventive and creative race technologically given their rate of advancement since first finding ME tech... well, if they have a technological revolution that benefits everyone, why attack them for reaping the most gain from it?




 

Think about it, nationwide militarization programs CANNOT occur in a vacuum. Millions even billions of people from all over the galaxy would have to be involved to one extent or another. From soldiers and sailors who suddenly have their training regimens altered (“Hey Sarge! Why are we training to fight zombies?”), to engineers all over the galaxy who have to figure out how to turn the theoretical fruits of the CB into actual systems, to the employees of God-only-knows how many shipbuilding firms/military contractors that will be required to retrofit entire fleets with new hardware.

Actually, in space they can. :whistle:

But, covered above. Vacuume isn't necessary to justify it.

One of the LotSB
 
It’s fair to say that anyone not involved in the war effort will be talking about it and asking questions. Not the least of which will be: “where is all this new stuff coming from?” If the CB is to be exploited for technology, it is best if done openly. If for no other reason than that different and alien minds could think up something humans and Cerberus, for whatever reason, didn’t (such as the thanix).

I don't think the Thanix can be used as an example, since it was a scaled down copy of salvage that the Turians snuck away from the overall Council search. That was a matter of who got the salvage, not innate creativity.

Undoubtably TIM won't spread the tech as fast, freely, or evenly as we would like. But it's not some lump sum that really could be handed out at once as an all-or-nothing deal either.

#1271
Mr. Gogeta34

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TIM had no beef in letting Anderson have Grayson and knowing about the Reaper threat.

#1272
Dean_the_Young

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RiouHotaru wrote...

One thing that I think people don't take into consideration is, Paragons who destroy the base aren't necessarily being idealistic. As far as my Shepards are concerned, putting aside all metagaming, here is what goes through their minds when determining whether or not to keep or blow the base:

1) Does the base potentially have useful tech BESIDES the ability to make a Reaper that could benefit my crusade against the Reapers?

Yes.

It's the Collector Base, tech that's carefully kept to be next-generation in regards to the Galactic Standard, even upto ten years in advance in fields varying from weaponry to software to materials/system engineering (E-zero drives) to genetics/biology research. Just imagine what you could save using Seeker Swarms against armies of indoctrinated humans.

Not including knowledge such as Husk-derived research and Mass Relay full-functionality knowledge, or the components of Reaper technology that have to be replicated in the process of making a Reaper.

2) If it does, do I think it could be understood/utilizied/reverse-engineered within a reasonable period of time?

Yes.

Tech reverse engineering in the ME universe is fast, at least in regards to humanity. Humanity went from solar-system bound to its first intergalactic colony in a period of a year after the discovery of the Prothean data cache, estimated at 200 years in advance of human tech at the time. A dead Reaper, a similar or even greater leap in advancement, was studied, analyzed, and produced significant gains in technology from mere fragments in under two years, from the Thannix to EDI.

And those are 200-year advances to deal with. Collector technology, which is traded with various groups, is often estimated at a single generation in advance, things that would become galactic standard eventually regardless but give an invaluable edge to those who have it first. A ten year advance is a lot easier to incorporate than a 200 year jump.


and the big one:

3) Can I trust TIM with it?

You can trust TIM to do what he says he will do with it, and to not do what he can not do.

#1273
lovgreno

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Arijharn wrote...

More to the point; theoretically you would be free not to accept the direction he gives you, but that would be a terribly boring game no?

Indeed. It wasn't supposed to be a pleasant or easy thing for Shepard to work with/for Cerberus. But something had to be done about the dissapearing colonies. Making these kind of "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situations is typical for the ME story and it's plot function is, like most things in the story, to make Shepard more heroic. If choices (including the base) were easy and had only one logical sollution it would make things too easy (and therefore non heroic) for Shepard and also quite boring for me personaly as a player.

#1274
Fiery Phoenix

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Correct me if I'm wrong, guys, but doesn't Paragon Shepard make it crystal-clear for Timmy from the very beginning that once the mission is over, she cuts her ties with Cerberus for good?

#1275
Dean_the_Young

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Only in a single conversation before Freedom's Progress, when you can challenge TIM about what will happen if there is nothing to be found there after that one mission, at which point he says more or less 'I'll pay for your cab back to the Alliance and wave as you leave.'



Otherwise, no. Even the blow-up-the-base Paragon of Paragon endings and options doesn't prevent future cooperation. A lot of people just really, really project hard.