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The Collector Base Argument Thread: Because It's Going To Happen, So It Might As Well Be In One Place (tm)


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#1301
mosor

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pf17456 wrote...

mosor wrote...

It has nothing to do with morality. Renegades can make all the choices you charge them with and be just as moral as your paragon. It's about priorities. For renegades, its about ensuring the security of the galaxy. For paragons, security comes second to them to wanting to feel good about themselves. It's as simple as that.




For renegades it's about trusting your boss and doing what you're told.
For paragons it's about trusting yourself and making up your own mind.


LMFAO. Do you even know the defintion of a renegade?

#1302
Markinator_123

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mosor wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I didn't mean someone who saved / destroyed the base was moral / immoral.  Just that I think it's interesting how people have different thought processes to get to their decisions.  Which are very different between the two groups (Keep / Destroy).
I don't believe a renegade choice is necessarily an immoral choice, and I don't believe a paragon choice is just to make someone feel good about themselves.
They're just two very different thought processes.


Well what is the thought process behind the paragon? I'm pretty damn renegade and my thought process as always been about making sure that the galaxy I'm defending is safe.  I'm not going to chance letting a criminal or terrorist go, only to have them kill another day. I'm not going to chance releasing Rachni, who almost destroyed the galaxy 2000 years ago, based on the queens word that she's different. I'm also not going to sacrifice my forces to save the acension, when every ship is gonna count in stopping a billion year old monster from opening the gate to our extinction.

Sure paragon decisions worked out. However, in my opinion, you still gambled with the lives of the rest of the people in the galaxy. That's unconscionable. The only reason why I can see a paragon doing these things, is they want to make themselves feel better about themselves.


After that realizing that, wouldn't you question a paragon's motivations? Are they really trying to save the galaxy or are they just trying to make themselves look good?

#1303
pf17456

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mosor wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

mosor wrote...

It has nothing to do with morality. Renegades can make all the choices you charge them with and be just as moral as your paragon. It's about priorities. For renegades, its about ensuring the security of the galaxy. For paragons, security comes second to them to wanting to feel good about themselves. It's as simple as that.




For renegades it's about trusting your boss and doing what you're told.
For paragons it's about trusting yourself and making up your own mind.


LMFAO. Do you even know the defintion of a renegade?


With regard to the decision regarding the CB renegade = Cerebrus lap dog

#1304
mosor

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pf17456 wrote...

mosor wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

mosor wrote...

It has nothing to do with morality. Renegades can make all the choices you charge them with and be just as moral as your paragon. It's about priorities. For renegades, its about ensuring the security of the galaxy. For paragons, security comes second to them to wanting to feel good about themselves. It's as simple as that.




For renegades it's about trusting your boss and doing what you're told.
For paragons it's about trusting yourself and making up your own mind.


LMFAO. Do you even know the defintion of a renegade?


With regard to the decision regarding the CB renegade = Cerebrus lap dog


Hey if Cerberus is right, they're right. I'm not going to ignore good advice, regardless of where it comes from.

However, if you based your decision on destroying the base by trusting yourself and making your own mind (You haven't given your reasons), then I'm glad you're not the one making decisions regarding my security.

#1305
pf17456

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One of the hallmarks of being a renegade is making independent decisions. In doing so you assume responsibility for those decisions.



You cannot do this by following orders and catering to your boss.

#1306
Icinix

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mosor wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I didn't mean someone who saved / destroyed the base was moral / immoral.  Just that I think it's interesting how people have different thought processes to get to their decisions.  Which are very different between the two groups (Keep / Destroy).
I don't believe a renegade choice is necessarily an immoral choice, and I don't believe a paragon choice is just to make someone feel good about themselves.
They're just two very different thought processes.


Well what is the thought process behind the paragon? I'm pretty damn renegade and my thought process as always been about making sure that the galaxy I'm defending is safe.  I'm not going to chance letting a criminal or terrorist go, only to have them kill another day. I'm not going to chance releasing Rachni, who almost destroyed the galaxy 2000 years ago, based on the queens word that she's different. I'm also not going to sacrifice my forces to save the acension, when every ship is gonna count in stopping a billion year old monster from opening the gate to our extinction.

(Snip..)


Paragon - Save the Ascension - Keep the council intact.  Longterm survival of galactic government.  Greater chance of unification of races with a functioning government to fight against the reapers.

Paragon - Release Rachni - Reapers twisted the Rachni to cause war and galactic instability.  Have a chance to undo the genocide of the Rachni, also, longterm view of race able to help fight against the reapers.  (Any race can be corrupted by the Reapers, so saying they could be used against everyone again is a moot point.  Particularly because they're aware of what happened the first time around.)

Paragon - Let Batarian Terrorist go -  Batarian terrorists will come and go, if you don't kill Balak, someone else will just rise up, possibly an unknown that is harder to track.  Letting him go you not only save the person who made it possible to stop the asteroid, but everyone now knows Balak and can keep an eye out for him.  Making his movements harder.

Very different thought processes to get to different outcomes.  Once again, not necessarily right or wrong.  Just, a different way of thinking.

Modifié par Icinix, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:04 .


#1307
pf17456

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mosor wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

mosor wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

mosor wrote...

It has nothing to do with morality. Renegades can make all the choices you charge them with and be just as moral as your paragon. It's about priorities. For renegades, its about ensuring the security of the galaxy. For paragons, security comes second to them to wanting to feel good about themselves. It's as simple as that.






For renegades it's about trusting your boss and doing what you're told.
For paragons it's about trusting yourself and making up your own mind.


LMFAO. Do you even know the defintion of a renegade?


With regard to the decision regarding the CB renegade = Cerebrus lap dog


Hey if Cerberus is right, they're right. I'm not going to ignore good advice, regardless of where it comes from.

However, if you based your decision on destroying the base by trusting yourself and making your own mind (You haven't given your reasons), then I'm glad you're not the one making decisions regarding my security.


TIM says ' good boy' and pats you on the head

Modifié par pf17456, 08 octobre 2010 - 10:55 .


#1308
mosor

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pf17456 wrote...


TIM says ' good boy' and pats you on the head


Better than licking salarian hoof, while a turian puts his boot over your head.

#1309
General User

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mosor wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I didn't mean someone who saved / destroyed the base was moral / immoral.  Just that I think it's interesting how people have different thought processes to get to their decisions.  Which are very different between the two groups (Keep / Destroy).
I don't believe a renegade choice is necessarily an immoral choice, and I don't believe a paragon choice is just to make someone feel good about themselves.
They're just two very different thought processes.


Well what is the thought process behind the paragon? I'm pretty damn renegade and my thought process as always been about making sure that the galaxy I'm defending is safe.  I'm not going to chance letting a criminal or terrorist go, only to have them kill another day. I'm not going to chance releasing Rachni, who almost destroyed the galaxy 2000 years ago, based on the queens word that she's different. I'm also not going to sacrifice my forces to save the acension, when every ship is gonna count in stopping a billion year old monster from opening the gate to our extinction.

Sure paragon decisions worked out. However, in my opinion, you still gambled with the lives of the rest of the people in the galaxy. That's unconscionable. The only reason why I can see a paragon doing these things, is they want to make themselves feel better about themselves.



I can’t answer for all paragons, but I can answer for myself, using the same examples.
 
I might risk letting a criminal or terrorist go (Rana Thoptis? Elnora? Balak?) under certain circumstances even if it means facing them another day, I have no blanket policy in this, it’s a case by case thing. 
 
I’m going to release the RQ because she promised to be good, to my knowledge no one ever communicated with a rachni before except with bullets, that and I don’t see why they should be given over to extinction just for losing a war (the Council be damned!).   
 
I’m going to sacrifice human forces to save the Destiny Ascension because the Council is on board, they’re important. For all their manifold faults, they’re still the leaders of a body I’m sworn to serve. It is the duty of military people to fight, and if necessary die, in the service of their nations/factions/masters. Going into that battle 5th Fleet and even Shepard had no way of knowing how the battle against Sovereign would progress, saving the DA was an immediate, achievable objective.
 
With a certainty, paragon actions do make a player feel good about themselves, but they also hold up well under analysis, in most cases better than the renegade options, depending on one’s priorities.

#1310
Giggles_Manically

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mosor wrote...

pf17456 wrote...


TIM says ' good boy' and pats you on the head


Better than licking salarian hoof, while a turian puts his boot over your head.

What and bending over and taking it from TIM is so much better?

#1311
pf17456

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mosor wrote...

pf17456 wrote...


TIM says ' good boy' and pats you on the head


Better than licking salarian hoof, while a turian puts his boot over your head.



Well at least paragon Shepard puts up some kind of fight

as opposed to renegade Shepard who hands Tim the vaseline and.............Posted Image

#1312
mosor

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Giggles_Manically wrote...

mosor wrote...

pf17456 wrote...


TIM says ' good boy' and pats you on the head


Better than licking salarian hoof, while a turian puts his boot over your head.

What and bending over and taking it from TIM is so much better?


You're not. Like that guy said. TIM will give you a pat on the head, and possibly some intel and equiment gained from the collector base. Destroy the base, and you will have to really beg (I wonder if licking their feet will be enough to get support from those blind stubborn morans?) for help. Screw em. They've been nothing but an obsticle the entire time.

Modifié par mosor, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:28 .


#1313
Giggles_Manically

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mosor wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

mosor wrote...

pf17456 wrote...


TIM says ' good boy' and pats you on the head


Better than licking salarian hoof, while a turian puts his boot over your head.

What and bending over and taking it from TIM is so much better?


You're not. Like that guy said. TIM will give you a pat on the head, and possibly some intel and equiment gained from the collector base. Destroy the base, and you will have to really beg (I wonder if licking their feet will be enough to get support from those blind stubborn morans?) to help. Screw em. They've been nothing but an obsticle the entire time.

Ah so you played ME3 or have become a fortune teller who has foreseen what is to come then to get this knowledge?

I am sorry but I don't work for Saturday Morning Cartoon Villian rejects. 

#1314
mosor

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Giggles_Manically wrote...

Ah so you played ME3 or have become a fortune teller who has foreseen what is to come then to get this knowledge?

I am sorry but I don't work for Saturday Morning Cartoon Villian rejects. 


You don't need to be a fortune teller to see that coming. Past experience is more than enough to come to that conclusion. What you think the council will somehow have an epiphany about the reaper threat? Keep dreaming. Maybe when the reapers start shooting.

Personally, I see TIM as for more complex than a saturday morning cartoon villian and isn't so cut and dry as you make him out to be. I think TIM is one of the things bioware did right in ME2. It says a lot that people here seem to view him more of a threat than the reapers.

#1315
pf17456

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.........

Modifié par pf17456, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:40 .


#1316
Zulu_DFA

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pf17456 wrote...
as opposed to renegade Shepard who hands Tim the vaseline and.............Posted Image


It's not about sex, Gary, it's about trust!!!

#1317
Inverness Moon

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General User wrote...

Most all of the arguments in favor of keeping the CB are based on the various boons it represents. Most (though not allPosted Image) of the arguments for blowing it revolve around the morally ambiguous nature of handing it over to Cerberus. All of it takes place under the shadow of the Reaper threat.
 
I would really, really appreciate it if someone, especially a renegade or base keeper, could break down the Reaper threat from their perspective. Basically, how big, how credible, and why? What do you think will be the primary challenges in overcoming them? And how do you suggest going about that?
 
I would certainly find it most interesting. And I think it would provide valuable insight into our respective decision making processes.

The reaper threat is absolute. They have been perpetuating a cycle of extinction for tens of millions of years with hundreds of trillions in casualties at the very least. Both the Citadel and the Alliance fleets were completely ineffective against Sovereign. The only reason we won that fight is because Sovereign apparently downloaded itself into an avatar to fight Shepard directly and lost.

At this point in time, in a ship-to-ship confrontation with the reapers, with every race in the galaxy united, I believe we stand a very low chance of winning. If I wasn't for the geth, quarians, rachni, and krogan, I would say a near-zero chance. It is absurd that some people believe we can afford to be picky about what avenues we take in order to stop the reapers and will destroy the collector base because of that. People who do that have no idea if there will be another option (short of metagaming), and they're putting the galaxy at risk due to their massive ego or all-important morals.

One of the primary challenges in the fight will be indoctrination. According to Vigil the reapers used indoctrination very effectively in order to sabotage resistance efforts. We need to find out how the hell it works, how to prevent it, and how to detect it. The collector base builds reapers and is a huge opportunity to attempt to study something that could cripple our fight for survival.

If we're going to defeat the reapers we need to fight some weakness or other angle of attack. I don't think a giant space battle is going to be the way to do it. An example of this would be Star Wars. The rebels certainly didn't have the firepower to go up against the Death Star directly. Instead, they stole the plans for the station and located a single weakness and took advantage of the pitfalls of the station's design in order to achieve victory.

We know the reapers are made using both organic and synthetic materials. We also now know they use nanotechnology and quantum entanglement technology to control bodies from dark space. Could we use the facilities in the collector base to perhaps create nanomachines that will destroy the organic material within the reapers and cripple them? I don't know, but we need to keep that base unless we just want to wing it during our fight for survival.

pf17456 wrote...

For renegades it's about trusting your boss and doing what you're told.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't make such ridiculous assumptions. If you're not going to take this discussion seriously, please excuse yourself.

#1318
Icinix

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mosor wrote...

(snip)....
It says a lot that people here seem to view him more of a threat than the reapers.



..and you still want to hand him the base?

#1319
GodWood

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

pf17456 wrote...as opposed to renegade Shepard who hands Tim the vaseline and.............Posted Image

It's not about sex, Gary, it's about trust!!!

lol

#1320
mosor

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

pf17456 wrote...
as opposed to renegade Shepard who hands Tim the vaseline and.............Posted Image


It's not about sex, Gary, it's about trust!!!


LMFAO! Jesus,  there goes my coffee.

#1321
Icinix

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Inverness Moon wrote...

(snip)

pf17456 wrote...

For renegades it's about trusting your boss and doing what you're told.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't make such ridiculous assumptions. If you're not going to take this discussion seriously, please excuse yourself.


That was in response to Mosor saying that Paragons just do things to make themselves feel better about...themselves.  Another ridiculous assumption.

#1322
Inverness Moon

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Icinix wrote...

mosor wrote...

(snip)....
It says a lot that people here seem to view him more of a threat than the reapers.



..and you still want to hand him the base?

TIM is certainly not more of a threat than the reapers. People who suggest otherwise are metagaming since they know victory against the reapers is a certainty in ME3.

Icinix wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

(snip)

pf17456 wrote...

For renegades it's about trusting your boss and doing what you're told.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't make such ridiculous assumptions. If you're not going to take this discussion seriously, please excuse yourself.


That was in response to Mosor saying that Paragons just do things to make themselves feel better about...themselves.  Another ridiculous assumption.

So the proper response to ridiculous assumptions is to make more of them?

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:42 .


#1323
GodWood

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Icinix wrote...

mosor wrote...
(snip)....
It says a lot that people here seem to view him more of a threat than the reapers.

..and you still want to hand him the base?

Reapers want to wipe out all life in the galaxy.
TIM wants human dominance.

He is the lesser of the two evils.

#1324
mosor

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Icinix wrote...

mosor wrote...

(snip)....
It says a lot that people here seem to view him more of a threat than the reapers.



..and you still want to hand him the base?


I'm not one of them. Seeing him more of a threat than the reapers doesn't make sense. To me he has virtues as well as vices. Nobility, as well as ruthlessness, selflessness as well as selfishness.  I just pointed out what a great job BW did with his character.

#1325
Xilizhra

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He's not a greater threat, he's another threat, one we ill need complicating the Reaper thing.