2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

mosor wrote...

I'm not one of them. Seeing him more of a threat than the reapers doesn't make sense. To me he has virtues as well as vices. Nobility, as well as ruthlessness, selflessness as well as selfishness.  I just pointed out what a great job BW did with his character.

BioWare did say that he was supposed to represent the best and worst of humanity. So I'm holding it to them not to turn him into some cliche villain in ME3.

Xilizhra wrote...

He's not a greater threat, he's another threat, one we ill need complicating the Reaper thing.

And on what do you base the assumption that he will make fight against the reapers more difficult?

If anything, the fight against the reapers will be easier now, especially due to what happened in Retribution.

Let's not forget the whole part where he brought Shepard back to life and gave him a ship and an AI made from reaper technology with anti-reaper algorithms.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:48 .

[Xilizhra]

I've said it already, I don't feel like saying it again.



Also, I'm pretty sure Cerberus will go antagonistic in ME3.

[mosor]

Icinix wrote...


I'd appreciate it if you didn't make such ridiculous assumptions. If you're not going to take this discussion seriously, please excuse yourself.

That was in response to Mosor saying that Paragons just do things to make themselves feel better about...themselves.  Another ridiculous assumption.

Actually, I think it's a quite valid assumption, and seeing you so shocked and appalled by that statement makes me think i hit a nerve. If you want to explain your reasons for being generally paragon. Go right ahead.  I was speaking generally, but if you're individually different, then explain yourself.

Modifié par mosor, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:56 .

[Icinix]

Lesser of two evils is still an evil.



The entire assumption is keeping the base will be a huge boon.

I just can't see how much can be gleaned from the base, the long term ramifications look nasty.



But even if the base had a magical button that wiped out all reapers, what would be the point if it's just going to get replaced with a one eyed human supremest who will push other races beneath him?



You're taking a place of torture and horror, putting in the hands of a madman, in the hope he can learn in a few years the technology of a race millions of years old, that will hopefully create something that will be enough to take out their armada, and then hope TIM won't turn its gaze on the other races in the galaxy.



It's like destroying the Death Star only to build one of your own.

[pf17456]

Inverness Moon wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

For renegades it's about trusting your boss and doing what you're told.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't make such ridiculous assumptions. If you're not going to take this discussion seriously, please excuse yourself.

Suggest reading back a few pages for an understanding of the context the above quoted comment was made before making rediculous assumptions.

[Icinix]

mosor wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
I'd appreciate it if you didn't make such ridiculous assumptions. If you're not going to take this discussion seriously, please excuse yourself.

That was in response to Mosor saying that Paragons just do things to make themselves feel better about...themselves.  Another ridiculous assumption.

Actually, I think it's a quite valid assumption, and seeing you so shocked and appalled by that statement makes me think i hit a nerve. If you want to explain your reasons for being generally paragon. Go right ahead.  I was speaking generally, but if you're individually different, then explain yourself.

You missed some quote lines there.

It was in regards to what pf1745 said.
I think both are ridiculous assumptions.

And I did explain my reasoning for paragon choices.  Back a page.

Modifié par Icinix, 09 octobre 2010 - 12:00 .

[GodWood]

Icinix wrote...
But even if the base had a magical button that wiped out all reapers, what would be the point if it's just going to get replaced with a one eyed human supremest who will push other races beneath him?

I think people seem to forget/ignore the fact that ME's current galaxy is not one of equality or fairness for most of the races.

[Icinix]

GodWood wrote...

Icinix wrote...
But even if the base had a magical button that wiped out all reapers, what would be the point if it's just going to get replaced with a one eyed human supremest who will push other races beneath him?

I think people seem to forget/ignore the fact that ME's current galaxy is not one of equality or fairness for most of the races.

That doesn't mean one should just elevate themselves above all others.  That just confounds the problem further.
I don't believe galactic peace AND equality is something that would be gained easily or quickly, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying and hand the reigns of the future over to someone like TIM.

Modifié par Icinix, 09 octobre 2010 - 12:06 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

(snip)

pf17456 wrote...

For renegades it's about trusting your boss and doing what you're told.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't make such ridiculous assumptions. If you're not going to take this discussion seriously, please excuse yourself.

That was in response to Mosor saying that Paragons just do things to make themselves feel better about...themselves.  Another ridiculous assumption.

So the proper response to ridiculous assumptions is to make more of them?

Well, actually, there is a point to pf17456's assertion. I, for one, was kinda going to blow up the Base, on my first playthrough, but TIM's words weighed in. He is in a position to make more informed desisions, than Shepard, and *my* Shepard has to accept that. Because that's how the universe works. Some people sit there high and warm and make decisions, and some go in the sh*t and execute them. But everyone can choose where their loyalties are. Even putting all the gung-ho humanism aside, TIM comes across as an intelligent person who knows what he is doing, unlike any other authority (including non-Council races) Shepard meets in ME2.

Let's not forget that many paragons, when you nail them down with the argument that although the "genocide" of the Rachni queen may be a grim business, setting it loose on a planet full of "innocent civilians" is at the very least risky, they start to weep: "Oh BioWare, why couldn't you put there an option to call the Council?"

And finally, the mosor's assertion that  the paragons just do things primarily to make themselves feel better is there to a T!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 octobre 2010 - 12:29 .

[GodWood]

Icinix wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Icinix wrote...
But even if the base had a magical button that wiped out all reapers, what would be the point if it's just going to get replaced with a one eyed human supremest who will push other races beneath him?

I think people seem to forget/ignore the fact that ME's current galaxy is not one of equality or fairness for most of the races.

That doesn't mean one should just elevate themselves above all others.  That just confounds the problem further.
I don't believe galactic peace AND equality is something that would be gained easily or quickly, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying and hand the reigns of the future over to someone like TIM.

I'm not one for human dominance either however I believe Cerberus are a valuble ally for the coming Reaper and invasion and its best to utilize them and their resources for now and worry about them after the Reaper invasion.

[mosor]

Icinix wrote...

Lesser of two evils is still an evil.

The entire assumption is keeping the base will be a huge boon.
I just can't see how much can be gleaned from the base, the long term ramifications look nasty.

But even if the base had a magical button that wiped out all reapers, what would be the point if it's just going to get replaced with a one eyed human supremest who will push other races beneath him?

You're taking a place of torture and horror, putting in the hands of a madman, in the hope he can learn in a few years the technology of a race millions of years old, that will hopefully create something that will be enough to take out their armada, and then hope TIM won't turn its gaze on the other races in the galaxy.

It's like destroying the Death Star only to build one of your own.

Well the post I replied to orginally was about being paragon and renegade in general but I'll reply to your points since you post is more on topic then my orginal post was.

1.  If the base did indeed have a button to kill all reapers, and millions (possibly trillions) had to die to defeat them by other means (assuming you know for sure you can), then you all those lives are on your hands. I personally consider it amoral to sacrifice all those lives simply on your personal morality. However, you won't have to sleep with that thought since you destroyed the base and will never know if there was indeed a kill all reaper button.

2. The base can have a kill all reaper button like you said. Why does it even have to be technological? I'd save the base if it had nothing else to offer but a single piece of intelligence.

3. Who says TIM will push other races beneth them? Human dominance doesn't mean enslaving everyone. I always took it to mean to be a galactic superpower like the USA is on earth. Even if the worst is true. Humans ruling the galaxy is always superior to galactic extinction. Human dominance can never be permanent. Extinction is.

4. Personally I don't see him as a foaming at the mouth madman. Or even Emperor Palpatine. Again, you are only assuming the only benefit will be technological. Good intelligence can be the difference between winning and losing a war.

Modifié par mosor, 09 octobre 2010 - 12:18 .

[HTTP 404]

to be a meta gamer, destroying the base would probably yield similar results anyway in the Me3. besides just taking something away from TIM is fun.

[Zulu_DFA]

HTTP 404 wrote...

to be a meta gamer, destroying the base would probably yield similar results anyway in the Me3. besides just taking something away from TIM is fun.

Metagaming is a gamer's mortal sin, which dooms his gamer's soul to an eternity in gaming Inferno!

[Icinix]

GodWood wrote...

Icinix wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Icinix wrote...
But even if the base had a magical button that wiped out all reapers, what would be the point if it's just going to get replaced with a one eyed human supremest who will push other races beneath him?

I think people seem to forget/ignore the fact that ME's current galaxy is not one of equality or fairness for most of the races.

That doesn't mean one should just elevate themselves above all others.  That just confounds the problem further.
I don't believe galactic peace AND equality is something that would be gained easily or quickly, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying and hand the reigns of the future over to someone like TIM.

I'm not one for human dominance either however I believe Cerberus are a valuble ally for the coming Reaper and invasion and its best to utilize them and their resources for now and worry about them after the Reaper invasion.

Personally I'd rather take the long term view straight off the bat.
Cerberus will fight against the reapers regardless, reducing their ability for domination now could save a massive problem when the galaxy is still reeling from the inevitable reaper war.  You also have the resources of the Shadow Broker at your disposal, and presumably the eventual backing of the council and their combined forces. (When the reapers arrive, a unified government is going to be very helpful with getting the other races armed forces on board with you.)

Otherwise handing Cerberus the base and worrying about it later sounds like the start of a vicious cycle.

[mosor]

Icinix wrote...
Personally I'd rather take the long term view straight off the bat.
Cerberus will fight against the reapers regardless, reducing their ability for domination now could save a massive problem when the galaxy is still reeling from the inevitable reaper war.  You also have the resources of the Shadow Broker at your disposal, and presumably the eventual backing of the council and their combined forces. (When the reapers arrive, a unified government is going to be very helpful with getting the other races armed forces on board with you.)

Otherwise handing Cerberus the base and worrying about it later sounds like the start of a vicious cycle.

Trying to solve problems of the future without dealing with the problem at hand is a recipe for disaster. Especially consdiering the problem at hand has graver consequences than anything Cerberus can do. Far better to let Cerberus help to their full potential, and deal with them as a threat later. Whatever you do with the base, you're not taking out cerberus regardless. Even If they get more powerful because of the base, they won't match the powers of the reapers.

Going about it the other way, as you say only makes sense,  if you're metagamming and think that the reaper problem will be solved, so it's better to screw Cerberus now rather than later.

Modifié par mosor, 09 octobre 2010 - 12:28 .

[GodWood]

Icinix wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Icinix wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Icinix wrote...
But even if the base had a magical button that wiped out all reapers, what would be the point if it's just going to get replaced with a one eyed human supremest who will push other races beneath him?

I think people seem to forget/ignore the fact that ME's current galaxy is not one of equality or fairness for most of the races.

That doesn't mean one should just elevate themselves above all others.  That just confounds the problem further.
I don't believe galactic peace AND equality is something that would be gained easily or quickly, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying and hand the reigns of the future over to someone like TIM.

I'm not one for human dominance either however I believe Cerberus are a valuble ally for the coming Reaper and invasion and its best to utilize them and their resources for now and worry about them after the Reaper invasion.

Personally I'd rather take the long term view straight off the bat.

In character Shepard doesn't have the benefit of knowing he is the protaganist and will win.
He is fighting a war against a race of machines that have wiped out all life in the galaxy multiple times, he's not in a safe position to be planning past the Reaper threat and thus must utilize all he has while he can.

You also have the resources of the Shadow Broker at your disposal,

I don't know this until after the SM, but regardless a base full of information is better then no base and no information. 

and presumably the eventual backing of the council and their combined forces.

By metagaming I know this will be the case however in character the council has proven to be absolutely useless against the Reaper threat.

[DPSSOC]

Icinix wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Icinix wrote...
But even if the base had a magical button that wiped out all reapers, what would be the point if it's just going to get replaced with a one eyed human supremest who will push other races beneath him?

I think people seem to forget/ignore the fact that ME's current galaxy is not one of equality or fairness for most of the races.

That doesn't mean one should just elevate themselves above all others.  That just confounds the problem further.
I don't believe galactic peace AND equality is something that would be gained easily or quickly, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying and hand the reigns of the future over to someone like TIM.

Point of interest, in our history every time equality has been taken from the bottom, rather than handed from the top, it's been bloody.  By elevating humanity (or really any of the non-Council races) you allow for a relatively bloodless transition of power to the hands of those who know how and why the system doesn't work, and might be willing to change it.  The Council is not big on equality, and they won't be until some other power comes along and offers the ultimatum, level the playing field or die.  In other words, the inequality of the system won't be acknowledged until it directly inconveniences the Council.  Giving Cerberus the base could give humanity the edge it needs to be that inconvenience.

[Icinix]

mosor wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Lesser of two evils is still an evil.

The entire assumption is keeping the base will be a huge boon.
I just can't see how much can be gleaned from the base, the long term ramifications look nasty.

But even if the base had a magical button that wiped out all reapers, what would be the point if it's just going to get replaced with a one eyed human supremest who will push other races beneath him?

You're taking a place of torture and horror, putting in the hands of a madman, in the hope he can learn in a few years the technology of a race millions of years old, that will hopefully create something that will be enough to take out their armada, and then hope TIM won't turn its gaze on the other races in the galaxy.

It's like destroying the Death Star only to build one of your own.

Well the post I replied to orginally was about being paragon and renegade in general but I'll reply to your points since you post is more on topic then my orginal post was.

1.  If the base did indeed have a button to kill all reapers, and millions (possibly trillions) had to die to defeat them by other means (assuming you know for sure you can), then you all those lives are on your hands. I personally consider it amoral to sacrifice all those lives simply on your personal morality. However, you won't have to sleep with that thought since you destroyed the base and will never know if there was indeed a kill all reaper button.

2. The base can have a kill all reaper button like you said. Why does it even have to be technological? I'd save the base if it had nothing else to offer but a single piece of intelligence.

3. Who says TIM will push other races beneth them? Human dominance doesn't mean enslaving everyone. I always took it to mean to be a galactic superpower like the USA is on earth. Even if the worst is true. Humans ruling the galaxy is always superior to galactic extinction. Human dominance can never be permanent. Extinction is.

4. Personally I don't see him as a foaming at the mouth madman. Or even Emperor Palpatine. Again, you are only assuming the only benefit will be technological. Good intelligence can be the difference between winning and losing a war.

Never presumed it was only technological.  Could be anything to help wipe out the reapers.  
WHICH I do stress, I believe would definitely aid against the Reapers.  Its the consequences of anyone having that power which concerns me.
TIM is paranoid, racist and extremely dangerous.  The people who follow him, and I'll use Kai Leng as an example here, are pro-human to an amazing degree.  The average joe working Cerberus isn't like that, but its the upper tiers that I'm worried about.  The ones who will make those decisions when Cerberus is in power.  
I may be able to live with deaths of millions, or more,  if it will ensure a greater balance of equality and freedom for all races in the galaxy, free from a Reaper threat for all time.
But can you live with causing the oppression, for maybe generations, of every non-human in the galaxy?  Because yes, that is what I believe a human government backed by Cerberus would cause.
Potentially then leading to massive conflict, and perhaps millions of deaths,  of other races rebelling against human 'overlords'?

Theres a lot of speculation in there that probably well and truly exceeds the boundaries of the Mass Effect games.  So it probably isn't the best for the arguments in question, but thats my line of thinking.

[Zulu_DFA]

DPSSOC wrote...
Giving Cerberus the base could give humanity the edge it needs to be that inconvenience.

This is possibly how it's going to be regarding the "Big Choices" and their impact on the outcome of ME3. The Reapers will be defeated regardless (or mostly due to choices made in ME3 itself).

Old Council dead, C-Base preserved = Humanity dominant
Either old Council dead or Base preserved = uneasy parity
No Base and no new Council = Humanity screwed.

[General User]

@Inverness Moon (awesome username btw)



Why do you say the Reaper threat is absolute? Is it because they’ve been successful in the past? It certainly means they’re serious about their threat but I don’t see exactly how that translates into them being able to carry it out.



To the best of our knowledge the Reapers are in rather uncharted waters themselves and, despite all their advantages, they’ve failed so far due as much to their own blundering (processing Saren being the prime exhibit) as Shepards heroics.



I’m also not sure the Battle of the Citadel would be indicative of how future battles against the Reapers would progress. Sovereign had multiple geth ships acting in support roles and completely blindsided the Citadel Fleet. 5th Fleet had limited intel and (of course) zero experience against Reapers, all the while fighting in the midst of a friendly metropolis and thus only with conventional weapons.



What made you come to the opposite conclusion? I can certainly understand how the relative “body counts” would be intimidating. That makes it all the more important to ask why Sovereign so successful against galactic forces at the Citadel? I say it was due to his physical advantages, advantages that are far from insurmountable even without the CB, especially a Cerberus controlled CB.





If it weren't for those obvious physical advantages I’d be downright dismissive of the Reapers as a threat at all. So I guess the question is: how big an advantage do you think they really have (in terms of technology, numbers, etc.)?



I won’t disagree with you about the dangers indoctrination represents. Do you feel the CB will be necessary to at least give our counter-intel people at least the ability to identify sleeper agents? I don’t, counter-intel people tend to be a suspicious lot but far from unintelligent (a certain Alliance 5th Fleet NAVINT major notwithstanding) or incapable. The experience of the STG combined with a judicious application of natural abilities might be an effective screen for indoctrinated sleeper agents by themselves.



I love your idea about using the CB as a manufacturing centre! I’ve not see that before but it makes perfect sense, especially if it’s intact to begin with. A nano-machine weapon is speculative, but not unrealistic and, quite possibly, conceptually brilliant.



On a purely storytelling level, I do hope the Reapers don’t have a “death star exhaust pipe.” It just seems a cheap way disposing of them, little better than finding a prothean super-gun.

[Terastar]

The way I was thinking when I destroyed the base was along this line.

Shep knew that the Reapers left a path to follow so that they could come back every 50,000 years.

When we jumped through the Mass 4 Relay and we seen all of them other ships from ancient times to assumed present times my Shep started wondering if all the other times that past civilizations must have came through that relay just as we did. My Shep truly wants to break the cycle so that means that my Shep must do something that the other past civilizations did not do in order to break free of the cycle. Since the base was there my Shep assumed that every other past civilizations must have chosen to try and keep the base for themselves so my Shep said goodbye base.

[Zulu_DFA]

Terastar wrote...
Since the base was there my Shep assumed that every other past civilizations must have chosen to try and keep the base for themselves so my Shep said goodbye base.

Really-really? Every single other civilization in thousands of cycles? You must think your Shepard is really smart!

[Icinix]

DPSSOC wrote...

Icinix wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Icinix wrote...
But even if the base had a magical button that wiped out all reapers, what would be the point if it's just going to get replaced with a one eyed human supremest who will push other races beneath him?

I think people seem to forget/ignore the fact that ME's current galaxy is not one of equality or fairness for most of the races.

That doesn't mean one should just elevate themselves above all others.  That just confounds the problem further.
I don't believe galactic peace AND equality is something that would be gained easily or quickly, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying and hand the reigns of the future over to someone like TIM.

Point of interest, in our history every time equality has been taken from the bottom, rather than handed from the top, it's been bloody.  By elevating humanity (or really any of the non-Council races) you allow for a relatively bloodless transition of power to the hands of those who know how and why the system doesn't work, and might be willing to change it.  The Council is not big on equality, and they won't be until some other power comes along and offers the ultimatum, level the playing field or die.  In other words, the inequality of the system won't be acknowledged until it directly inconveniences the Council.  Giving Cerberus the base could give humanity the edge it needs to be that inconvenience.

The council is still bigger on equality than Cerberus is.  Which is a start.  I think I covered most of my thoughts with my last posts in regard to this, but, it is only a start.  Metagaming has been thrown around a bit, but it isn't metagaming.  It's planning in general.  You set things up to cover all your bases, no pun intended.  You prepare for the worst, preparing everything you can (Rachni, Krogan, Council, Shadow Broker etc), but you can't plan for a loss, because you and everyone will be dead.  So you plan that you're going to win.  So you take away the ability of someone else, in this case TIM, to become a dominating force in the galaxy after the war, with the idea it will prevent a potential bloody war further down the track.

Once again, beyond the scope of what we'll see in Mass Effect games.  But just the mindset.

[Flamewielder]

Icinix wrote...

Lesser of two evils is still an evil.

The entire assumption is keeping the base will be a huge boon.
I just can't see how much can be gleaned from the base, the long term ramifications look nasty.

But even if the base had a magical button that wiped out all reapers, what would be the point if it's just going to get replaced with a one eyed human supremest who will push other races beneath him?

You're taking a place of torture and horror, putting in the hands of a madman, in the hope he can learn in a few years the technology of a race millions of years old, that will hopefully create something that will be enough to take out their armada, and then hope TIM won't turn its gaze on the other races in the galaxy.

It's like destroying the Death Star only to build one of your own.

The problem is, however ruthless TIM may be, the base MAY contain THE ONLY tech that can stop the Reapers. If so, the risk analysis is simple:

Save the base: Cerberus finds solution (+1), Cerberus fails and we're all dead(0):  net result = +1
Destroy the base: We're all dead (0) = 0

The results would be the same if the base was handed over to the Council:

Save the base: Council finds solution (+1), Council fails and we're all dead(0):  net result = +1
Destroy the base: We're all dead (0) = 0

On the metagaming level, we know Bioware wants to make both paragon/renegade paths equivalent but they obviously overlooked this obviously skewed choice.

Had EDI commented to the effect that she had datamined everything from the base AT THE MOMENT SHEPARD CHOOSES BETWEEN KEEPING/DESTROYING the base, it would have made the options more balanced. As it is, Shepard doesn't have a choice but to keep the base, hoping that he'll be able to stop TIM from abusing it later.

By datamining everything on the base, I include complete Reaper schematics and fabrication process, Collector base/ship schematics, strategic planning, list of indoctrinated contacts/agents, etc... With complete schematics, the actual physical base becomes accessory and can safely be destroyed but this is not made explicit to Shepard or the player until AFTER the base is destroyed.

A true paragon would not take that risk of destroying the base without a reasonable certainty that he has aquired all the necessary data (something that is suggested in the end cinematics). Unfortunately, this certainty is established AFTER the fact, which ruins the intended paragon/renegade options balance.

[mosor]

Icinix wrote...

But can you live with causing the oppression, for maybe generations, of every non-human in the galaxy?  Because yes, that is what I believe a human government backed by Cerberus would cause.
Potentially then leading to massive conflict, and perhaps millions of deaths,  of other races rebelling against human 'overlords'?

Theres a lot of speculation in there that probably well and truly exceeds the boundaries of the Mass Effect games.  So it probably isn't the best for the arguments in question, but thats my line of thinking.

I can't really do anything about conflicts happening generations after my time. I can only do something to stop extinction. I'd defintiely prefer stopping extinction and take every opportunity to stop it rather than worry about possible future wars (That will probably happen anyway).

Modifié par mosor, 09 octobre 2010 - 12:56 .