2146 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

...behind creating political crysis in the Vagrant Fleet..

Yup, you pretty much destroy your position of Logic over Emotion right here.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

The thing is, for the most part I feel paragon decisions are something like this, indulge me a bit by reading my story:
The space station is collapsing, everything is exploding. Cmdr. Shephard runs to the shuttle with his cohorts quick in step behind him. That's strange, you can hear something... a meowing. A cat is stuck in a tree.
"Shephard!" Garrus shouts, barely able to be heard above the blaring klaxons, "We have to get out of here!"
EDI chimes in, warning that the space station will completely destroy itself very soon, probably in less than a minute judging by the station's core.
Meow.
Damn that cat! Shephard sighs and climbs up the tree to fetch it.
Garrus blanches
"You have got to be ****ing kidding me Shephard! You're risking all of our lives just to get a cat?!"

Hey, cats come from Earth. They worth much more than Turians!

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

...behind creating political crysis in the Vagrant Fleet..

Yup, you pretty much destroy your position of Logic over Emotion right here.

How so?

[GuardianAngel470]

Arijharn wrote...

The thing is, for the most part I feel paragon decisions are something like this, indulge me a bit by reading my story:
The space station is collapsing, everything is exploding. Cmdr. Shephard runs to the shuttle with his cohorts quick in step behind him. That's strange, you can hear something... a meowing. A cat is stuck in a tree.
"Shephard!" Garrus shouts, barely able to be heard above the blaring klaxons, "We have to get out of here!"
EDI chimes in, warning that the space station will completely destroy itself very soon, probably in less than a minute judging by the station's core.
Meow.
Damn that cat! Shephard sighs and climbs up the tree to fetch it.
Garrus blanches
"You have got to be ****ing kidding me Shephard! You're risking all of our lives just to get a cat?!"

Yup, that pretty much no validity as an analogy for my decision.  Again, I destroy the base because the risk of TIM conducting an experiment that somehow undermines all of my efforts to save the galaxy and possibly bring the Reapers back prematurely is too high.

[Xilizhra]

Because without power it will be demoted to the Turian Hierarhy's client state or something.

All told, it's better for one species to be vassalized than for all but one to.

BS. By blowing things up you don't try to achieve the best possible result, you try to avoid the worst one. That's behind blowing up the Heretics station, behind erasing genopahge cure data, behind creating political crysis in the Vagrant Fleet. It's the right call, when the danger is real. But sometimes the danger exists only in your imagination, so blowing things up is the wrong call. The renegade argument in the Collector Base choice is: by letting your irrational fears overtake and make you blow up the Base, you pass up the best possible outcome (or even the only chance there is).

Actually, blowing up the base cuts off a lot of potential power to Cerberus; the best possible outcome is that the Reapers are defeated and Cerberus is either destroyed or reduced to a husk of its former self, while we find some other means of combating the Reapers (which we most certainly will).

[Arijharn]

This is what I mean, it's nice to think that your morals matter, but you're effectively casting your morals on people who might not even share them, might not even understand them and might even disagree with them.



I respect people who have given their decision a bit more thought, but I find it hard to think like that. TIM has neither the resources nor the power to be a threat to galactic stability. He might have influence within the realm of the Systems Alliance, but he isn't even a puppeteer really, because he can't utterly convince people of his ideas.



On a different tact though, I honestly like the Council, I like what they supposedly represent... but they are totally an old boys club really. The Alliance are recently added but it seems to me that the Alliance is still largely left out because they automatically have more to 'prove.' You can bet that if it was Illium that was attacked by the Collector's you would bet that the Council will immediately vote to send relief and initiate an 'investigation,' despite the fact that it isn't an asari world and exists in the Terminus Systems, an area that the Council classically wants to avoid like a plague.

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

...behind creating political crysis in the Vagrant Fleet..

Yup, you pretty much destroy your position of Logic over Emotion right here.

How so?

Insults are made by emotional people in order to vent their feelings. Logical people recognize that insults are pointless and the only reason  to use one is to hurt someone else, which means you have issues with anger in some way.

the only acceptable use of an insult is to enrage someone enough that your chances of survival are heightened in the event you are cornered by baddies).

[Arijharn]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Yup, that pretty much no validity as an analogy for my decision.  Again, I destroy the base because the risk of TIM conducting an experiment that somehow undermines all of my efforts to save the galaxy and possibly bring the Reapers back prematurely is too high.

Heh, I know it doesn't for you, but I still feel that the majority of paragon choices in this game were more geared towards the whole 'feel good' response. In ME2 how many optional quests gave you paragon points vs how many gave you renegade points? The only optionals that I can recall that gave me purely renegade points was Mr. Thax's when you found out that dodgy Asari was ripping him off.

[pf17456]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...Damn, we have a lot of telepaths saying this. Let me just say right here that my own Paragon's decision here was based on trying to get the best possible outcome out of whatever situations she can.[/quote]
BS. By blowing things up you don't try to achieve the best possible result, you try to avoid the worst one. That's behind blowing up the Heretics station, behind erasing genopahge cure data, behind creating political crysis in the Vagrant Fleet. It's the right call, when the danger is real. But sometimes the danger exists only in your imagination, so blowing things up is the wrong call. The renegade argument in the Collector Base choice is: by letting your irrational fears overtake and make you blow up the Base, you pass up the best possible outcome (or even the only chance there is).[/quote]

The renegade call is; ok boss whatever you say.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because without power it will be demoted to the Turian Hierarhy's client state or something.

All told, it's better for one species to be vassalized than for all but one to.

So, Humanity gets screwed and you're OK with that. Just freaking say so. Don't try to pull that if Humanity gets screwed but for the "greater good", it's not really screwed.

Xilizhra wrote...

BS. By blowing things up you don't try to achieve the best possible result, you try to avoid the worst one. That's behind blowing up the Heretics station, behind erasing genopahge cure data, behind creating political crysis in the Vagrant Fleet. It's the right call, when the danger is real. But sometimes the danger exists only in your imagination, so blowing things up is the wrong call. The renegade argument in the Collector Base choice is: by letting your irrational fears overtake and make you blow up the Base, you pass up the best possible outcome (or even the only chance there is).

Actually, blowing up the base cuts off a lot of potential power to Cerberus; the best possible outcome is that the Reapers are defeated and Cerberus is either destroyed or reduced to a husk of its former self, while we find some other means of combating the Reapers (which we most certainly will).

This "best outcome" of yours comes at a price of potential defeat from the Reapers. While "not so best outcome" can possibly make casualties even among the would be oppressed species negligible. Really, your sense of guilt of being Human blinds you.

[OmegaXI]

Am I the only one who blew up the base because I wanted to commit genocide on one more alien race to prove what happens when you mess with my shepard?

[GuardianAngel470]

Arijharn wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Yup, that pretty much no validity as an analogy for my decision.  Again, I destroy the base because the risk of TIM conducting an experiment that somehow undermines all of my efforts to save the galaxy and possibly bring the Reapers back prematurely is too high.

Heh, I know it doesn't for you, but I still feel that the majority of paragon choices in this game were more geared towards the whole 'feel good' response. In ME2 how many optional quests gave you paragon points vs how many gave you renegade points? The only optionals that I can recall that gave me purely renegade points was Mr. Thax's when you found out that dodgy Asari was ripping him off.

That's good to hear that at least someone recognizes that not all paragons act on impulse.

One thing I will add, the dialog itself may support your theory, but the players may have different reasons. For instance, I destroy the base because I think the risk is too high, but My shepard says it's because "He won't let fear compromise who he is", which is probably the worst reason.

So even if you played the paragon lines and heard certain reasons doesn't mean that they are the real reason players chose those actions.

And at the end of the day, you nor I can actually know what most paragon players were thinking when they made the decision.

[GuardianAngel470]

OmegaXI wrote...

Am I the only one who blew up the base because I wanted to commit genocide on one more alien race to prove what happens when you mess with my shepard?

Probably, but hey, it's a valid reason.

[Zulu_DFA]

pf17456 wrote...
The renegade call is; ok boss whatever you say.

When the boss is a better renegade you ought to take lessons, whilst you can.

[Xilizhra]

So, Humanity gets screwed and you're OK with that. Just freaking say so. Don't try to pull that if Humanity gets screwed but for the "greater good", it's not really screwed.

I'm pretty sure it's not really "screwed." The volus are also a client race of the turians and don't do too badly, and humans already have a Council seat.

This "best outcome" of yours comes at a price of potential defeat from the Reapers. While "not so best outcome" can possibly make casualties even among the would be oppressed species negligible. Really, your sense of guilt of being Human blinds you.

I more think that Cerberus is a threat to my anti-Reaper plans, for reasons which I've already stated.

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

...behind creating political crysis in the Vagrant Fleet..

Yup, you pretty much destroy your position of Logic over Emotion right here.

How so?

Insults are made by emotional people in order to vent their feelings. Logical people recognize that insults are pointless and the only reason  to use one is to hurt someone else, which means you have issues with anger in some way.

the only acceptable use of an insult is to enrage someone enough that your chances of survival are heightened in the event you are cornered by baddies).

Whom have I insulted?

[Arijharn]

Xilizhra wrote...
All told, it's better for one species to be vassalized than for all but one to.

What? I admit... I feel stupid today (not enough caffeine) can you please elaborate?

Why is it better for any species to be vassalized? I don't even think it was good for the Volus because they constantly feel 'less than' because of their nature. Here they are; one of the oldest species in known space, the ones credited with the invention of the galactic currency and banking system and they still only exist in a 'shared space' with the Embassy of the Elcor.

Not only this, but the Turian's are supposed to give them protection, but according to I think the Cerberus Daily News; the Turian's couldn't even be depended upon to save one of the Volus colonies from an asteriod impact, instead sending all (or near all forces) to quell the rebellion in the wake of the Taetrus impact and the military response that resulted from it.

It's been made abundantly clear that despite the Council's claim to the contrary, the client states aren't as equal as any other, and I'm surprised that doesn't offend people's sensibilities more than it does, therefore I see nothing wrong with humanity wishing to express itself as being 'better' than that.

Actually, blowing up the base cuts off a lot of potential power to Cerberus; the best possible outcome is that the Reapers are defeated and Cerberus is either destroyed or reduced to a husk of its former self, while we find some other means of combating the Reapers (which we most certainly will).

This is our entire point. You know for sure that this will be certain because we are playing a game. Shephard doesn't. It makes less sense to just blindly hope for the best down the line when you can build yourself up now when you know something of import has occured, because there's nothing that prevents you from also getting what may or may not happen downstream.

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

...behind creating political crysis in the Vagrant Fleet..

Yup, you pretty much destroy your position of Logic over Emotion right here.

How so?

Insults are made by emotional people in order to vent their feelings. Logical people recognize that insults are pointless and the only reason  to use one is to hurt someone else, which means you have issues with anger in some way.

the only acceptable use of an insult is to enrage someone enough that your chances of survival are heightened in the event you are cornered by baddies).

Whom have I insulted?

you insulted a fiction group.  Which kinda makes it doubly sad.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

So, Humanity gets screwed and you're OK with that. Just freaking say so. Don't try to pull that if Humanity gets screwed but for the "greater good", it's not really screwed.

I'm pretty sure it's not really "screwed." The volus are also a client race of the turians and don't do too badly, and humans already have a Council seat.

Not for long, I guess, with such "politicians" as your beloved Anderson.

As for the Volus being happy, talk to their ambassador, or the Vol Independence Party members. Yeah, that's right, it's "V.I.P."... Who says it's bad to be a race of comic relief in ME4?

Xilizhra wrote...

This "best outcome" of yours comes at a price of potential defeat from the Reapers. While "not so best outcome" can possibly make casualties even among the would be oppressed species negligible. Really, your sense of guilt of being Human blinds you.

I more think that Cerberus is a threat to my anti-Reaper plans, for reasons which I've already stated.

The only anti-Reaper plan that does not involve Cerberus at this point must be based on your faith in God (aka BioWare).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 octobre 2010 - 03:29 .

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

...behind creating political crysis in the Vagrant Fleet..

Yup, you pretty much destroy your position of Logic over Emotion right here.

How so?

Insults are made by emotional people in order to vent their feelings. Logical people recognize that insults are pointless and the only reason  to use one is to hurt someone else, which means you have issues with anger in some way.

the only acceptable use of an insult is to enrage someone enough that your chances of survival are heightened in the event you are cornered by baddies).

Whom have I insulted?

you insulted a fiction group.  Which kinda makes it doubly sad.

Lima-Oscar-Lima.

[Xilizhra]

It's been made abundantly clear that despite the Council's claim to the contrary, the client states aren't as equal as any other, and I'm surprised that doesn't offend people's sensibilities more than it does, therefore I see nothing wrong with humanity wishing to express itself as being 'better' than that.

I have no problems as such with humans wanting more power, but I feel it's better for one race to be a client than for every other race to be a client to humans.

Not for long, I guess, with such "politicians" as your beloved Anderson.

Hey, he helped the turians. I don't think he'll damage humanity's standing with the Council.

As for the Volus being happy, talk to their ambassador, or the Vol Independence Party members. Yeah, that's right, it's "V.I.P."... Who says' it's bad to be a race of comic relief in ME4?

The volus ambassador isn't totally rational, as pointed out by the elcor ambassador repeatedly. And I've never heard of the VIP.

The only anti-Reaper plan that does not involve Cerberus at this point must be based on your faith in God (aka BioWare).

As you wish. This is a road I've trod too many times to do so again. I'm quite confident in my decision.

[HTTP 404]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

to be a meta gamer, destroying the base would probably yield similar results anyway in the Me3. besides just taking something away from TIM is fun.

Metagaming is a gamer's mortal sin, which dooms his gamer's soul to an eternity in gaming Inferno!

I will see you in gaming inferno

[DPSSOC]

General User wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Icinix wrote...
The council is still bigger on equality than Cerberus is.

 

Please point out where Cerberus says, "You can't do this task because you're turian."  The Council in ME1 is reluctant to make you a Spectre, not because of your qualifications but your race.  Cerberus on the other hand has no issue hiring Quarians, Asari, Drell, Salarians, etc. whoever happens to be the most qualified for the task.
 

What the hell, if Icinix isn’t here right now, I'll give this one a whack. 

Cerberus’ agenda may not be overtly racist per se but can you really see an alien running it? That’s a problem for some people (myself included) only because that truth is racially based and grounded in race politics.

No I can't because Cerberus is a human centric organization.  That'd be a lot like hiring a pastry chef to run a steakhouse.  I don't deny that Cerberus does have racial bias and I can certainly see where that might cause problems; I was simply pointing out that Cerberus seems to be more of an equal opportunity employer than the Council.

General User wrote...
Where the waters get muddy is on the idea that something that improves the position of humanity (or any race really) must degrade the position of another race. That line of thinking implies a zero-sum view of the universe that I cannot subscribe to.

Imagine a box of doughnuts (mmm doughnuts) now in that box there are a finite amount of doughnuts.  This means that every doughnut that you have is one that someone else can't, agreed?  Well the same is true with power, there is only so much power at any given time though it does fluctuate over time (finite but not static).  If the lot of one group is improved they gain power, influence in the case of politics.  Now the more people who have a particular level of influence the less ability each individual at that level has to effect events (1 voice in a group of 4 carries more weight than 1 voice in a group of 10).  So whenever someone gains power or influence someone else, perhaps multiple someone elses, suffers a loss.  This is not only a reality of politics but a law of physics.  Just as matter cannot be created or destroyed only transformed, power cannot be created or destroyed simply redistributed.

General User wrote...
But again the race issue comes up. Some people (myself included) feel that anything that pits one race against one another, is anathema. Especially since the various races of ME have no real reason to be in competition (real or imagined) to begin with.

And I agree, however we must accept the fact that the races are in competition and we can't change the nature of the game by simply refusing to play.

[Zulu_DFA]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

to be a meta gamer, destroying the base would probably yield similar results anyway in the Me3. besides just taking something away from TIM is fun.

Metagaming is a gamer's mortal sin, which dooms his gamer's soul to an eternity in gaming Inferno!

I will see you in gaming inferno

Yeah, I think so... Damn you BioWare!