2146 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

Ieldra2 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Why does everyone deal with extremes?  Why do people have to equate destroying the base with signing a galactic death sentence?

We do not equate it. It's a risk calculation. We work from the following assumptions:

(1) The Reapers are significantly more technologically advanced than galactic civilization.
(2) If the present balance of technology does not change, the Reapers will win and exterminate galactic civilization.
These assumptions come from observing Sovereign in battle. Sovereign would have destroyed the whole fleet if it hadn't been forced to animate Saren to complete its objectives. A whole fleet of Reapers would be invincible for the current capabilities of galactic civilization.

From that, we draw the conclusion that
(1) There will be no winning against the Reapers without increased understanding of their capabilities, so that means to neutralize them can be developed. In order to understand their capabilities, understanding their technology is a necessity. To understand their technology, we need any samples we can get our hands on.
(2) Given that the derelict Reaper is now inaccessible or even destroyed, the base presents the best chance of gaining better understanding of Reaper capabilities. We do not know how high that chance is, but we can plausibly assume it's greater than anywhere else we know of.

This means that destroying the base destroys the only known large sample of what might contain a vital strategic resource. We don't know if that resource is there, but the base is the biggest and most complex known sample, so it's a plausible assumption that if the understanding we need can be found at all, it can be found there. It also means we cannot afford to destroy the base before we have thoroughly examined it. If we keep the base and do not find anything, then we might pay for that with Cerberus atrocities of an unknown magnitude. But that's the lesser evil: if we destroy the base and there was that vital understanding to be found in it, we will have doomed ourselves to extinction through our own decision.

Now the question: what would you rather risk? The chance we doom life in the galaxy to extinction by destroying the base, or the chance that Cerberus will commit atrocities of a unknown magnitude by keeping it. Both are not certainties, but would you even risk the first?

I'll comment on your assumptions first:

1) Alright, I'll agree that they are likely the most advanced group when compared to individual species
2) ...This is probably also true, although the level of "change" necessary is up for interpretation.
Also, observing Sovereign in combat tells me that he should be glad he had the geth with him.  Remember, Sovereign on his own was formidable, but not invincible.  Remember that the Citadel was likely probably not using their full fleet, because they weren't aware of the true strength of their foe.  Also, the combined fleets were softened by their initial confrontation with the geth.  Sovereign went into that fight with several major advantages even before the first shot was fired.  If things had changed, I don't think that the battle would be as one-sided.

But Sovereign uploading himself was a major change, and actually points out a weakness, but that's not relevant right now.

As for the base, I still think you're overestimating it's worth.  Remember, EDI said the technology they used to "make" that Reaper wasn't their own (speaking about the Collectors)  My guess is, without Harbinger directing them, the Collectors would never have been able to get as far as they did.  So, while the base could provide some amazing technological developments, I highly doubt there's any kind of blueprint or schematic for making a Reaper.  Also, given that Sovereign didn't yield a lot besides the Thanix cannon (which is in itself a huge development) there's no guarantee that 1) Any part of the Human Reaper is salvageable and 2) That anything you find would be useable.

Again, while I understand your position, I don't agree with it.  And since I don't trust TIM to either use the base for the right reasons or that something won't go terribly wrong (again), I think destroying it is a perfectly reasonable and logical choice.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The weakness exploited against Sovereign through Saren was blind luck. It's also a weakness that will never be shown again as they're coming here manually. Once they get here, they don't need a host to embed themselves in.

It is also proven that whether the Geth was there or not is somewhat irrelevant.  No one could damage Sovereign even with everything they threw at it.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 octobre 2010 - 11:24 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The weakness exploited against Sovereign through Saren was blind luck. It's also a weakness that will never be shown again as they're coming here manually. Once they get here, they don't need a host to embed themselves in.

It is also proven that whether the Geth was there or not is somewhat irrelevant.  No one could damage Sovereign even with everything they threw at it.

The whole "Shepard killed the Frog and that got Sovereign's shields down" story is nothing if not moot.

RiouHotaru wrote...
1) Alright, I'll agree that they are likely the most advanced group when compared to individual species

They eradicate Galactic Empires ON SCHEDULE!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 octobre 2010 - 11:34 .

[mosor]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But to me, Human dominance is not so much a matter of kin, as it is a matter of greater good. The Mankind is clearly depicted in the series as a wind of change in the Galaxy, that's been growing decrepit. So my Shepard's ardent humanism is very well justified, whereas Anderson's growing frustration with what ME's Humanity is is very erroneous even regardless of his duty to the Alliance.

Just to build on your point here. The council has 2000 years to develop. At this point they're a stagnating force in the galaxy. They're not expanding (They ask humanity to take risks expanding for them), they're not advancing much technologically (humanity reached virtual parity within a generation), their military tactics are outdated and non-adaptive.

The fact is, humanity has a manifest destiny to be a powerful  force in the galaxy. The question is do we become the errand boys for a stale council that wants us to help them, but always finds an excuse not to help us? Or, do we take destiny in our own hands and reach our full potential, without aliens limiting our greatness?

Being pro-council  is silly. You end up like some dork trying woo some beautiful woman by bending over backwards to please her, only for her to return just enough affection to keep doing what you're doing, but never anything substantial.

Screw that. Go for power and greatness. Then everyone will trip over themselves to be your friend.

Modifié par mosor, 09 octobre 2010 - 11:34 .

[Zulu_DFA]

mosor wrote...
Screw that. Go for power and greatness. Then everyone will trip over themselves to be your friend.

Yeah, go sexy, go TIM!


All right, time-out everybody!









 
 
Now, as it pertains to the Collector Base choice.

I claim, that the vast majority of the people who destroy the Base, do so ultimately and solely due to having freudian insecurities about TIM! Guys know he is better, and gals just seek more attention!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 octobre 2010 - 11:40 .

[Xilizhra]

I doubt that the rising tide of humanity would lift enough nonhuman boats to really be justified in taking over the Council.

[mosor]

Xilizhra wrote...

I doubt that the rising tide of humanity would lift enough nonhuman boats to really be justified in taking over the Council.

The reaper tsunami  will sink plenty of boats when it hits. As long as human boats are strong enough to weather the tide then this shouldn't be a problem. That's why I keep the collector base That and I have a fondness for asari concubines and turian butlers.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The weakness exploited against Sovereign through Saren was blind luck. It's also a weakness that will never be shown again as they're coming here manually. Once they get here, they don't need a host to embed themselves in.

It is also proven that whether the Geth was there or not is somewhat irrelevant.  No one could damage Sovereign even with everything they threw at it.

The whole "Shepard killed the Frog and that got Sovereign's shields down" story is nothing if not moot.

Shepard killed Sovereign, this is common knowledge... and this was only possible by destroying Saren's body.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 09 octobre 2010 - 11:50 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Think of it like a classroom. 

I wouldn't want to fail a group project because my group/teammates don't want to do any of the work.  If only the class bully wants to get this done for the sake of his own grade/staying in the class, I'm not above working with him to achieve that.

If he acts out of line I can always tell the teacher or straighten him out myself later.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 octobre 2010 - 12:01 .

[Arijharn]

Riou, using Sovereign as an example of how the Reapers usually operate is wrong.



For one, Sovereign was a vanguard, two he may have been acting out of desperation, three; the Reapers know their machinations until now have failed and have essentially said: "screw it, I'll walk" and four; we strongly suspect (know) that they'll invade en masse.



Current technologies against the Reapers are insufficient, we know this from EDI and we know this first hand due to Sovereign almost single handedly annihilating the 5th fleet as well as the Citadel defensive guard. Ergo; to trust current military capability against the Reapers is foolhardy to the extreme, steps must be taken (even if distasteful) to defeat the threat because the stakes against us are so mind boggling large.

[General User]

TIM rather reminds me of an episode of Babylon 5, I vaguely remember. 
 
An inquisitor asked a character: “Are you willing to do whatever it takes to stop the [inset space monster here]s?” 
 
“Yes.” she replied.
 
“Are you willing to sacrifice your morals, ethics, even your immortal soul?”
 
“Yes!” she replied.
 
“Are you willing to die, and to see your loved ones die?”
 
“YES!” she replied.
 
“Are you willing to lose everything, all your ideals, and works? To see everything you believed in and tried to create crushed into dust never to rise again? To die alone and forgotten, having accomplished nothing?
 
I feel this is where TIM gets off. He’s probably willing to even die himself to stop the Reapers but his commitment is less than total. Shepard’s commitment is total, it’s one of the things that makes her so special.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Who wants to not accomplish anything though? TIM would naturally be more pragmatic than that.

[scarface71795]

Humans come first for me
you know why ?
because i am human
If only humanity will step up to fight the reapers why give others the weapons when they won't use them
consider it racial
A black man committed a crime or something else 9 times out of ten other blacks will support him no matter what
It's just who people are

edit: ok maybe not the best example but a good one nonetheless 

Modifié par scarface71795, 10 octobre 2010 - 01:44 .

[StarGateGod]

I destroyed one and saved one, im guessing we will lose if we dont use it. I only play paragon and i sure ill lose if i dont have the base . I was hoping the game would let me drive it to the citadel and give it to them as a gift, a here your prove present that would shut them up and get them in action

[Arijharn]

Driving the base to the Citadel would certainly garner some attention... I would imagine mostly by pirates

[Inverness Moon]

General User wrote...

See I don’t get why that is exactly. I understand the rationale; I just don’t think it makes any sense. 
 
If point defenses are such an incredible technology, how does anything not traveling at the speed of light get past them? 
 
If a machined slug can be fired at X percent of light speed, why can’t nuclear warheads or shaped charges? In other words, why can’t a missile be mass accelerated? Why must a slug fired form a dreadnought or cruiser not have a guidance system and payload? Who says the missiles have to be terribly big to begin with?
 
Why can’t a missile have an FTL drive? No laser can intercept something traveling faster than light. Expenses be damned, they don’t call ‘em warbucks for nothing! Besides, if we lose, how much does a new galaxy cost?
 
Why!?! Damn you Bioware! WHY!?! Or, umm… WHY NOT!?! As the case may be.

Sorry, but that is how it works in Mass Effect. Missiles are a no-go, I don't feel like trying to drag up all the technical details and how the mythical element zero fits into it.

I also don't think the slugs they fire from dreadnoughts are the right size to be able to create a uranium gun device or contain enough uranium to reach critical mass on impact.

I’m not a counter-intel specialist, not that that will stop me from offering an opinion however . I don’t see how a counter indoctrination program would be dramatically different from standard counter-intelligence work in many regards. Monitor the whereabouts, activities, and behaviors of your personnel. Require peer-reporting of suspicious behavior. Follow-up on all reports. Vigilance would be the watchword.  You'd need a similar program even with the CB, and even if said CB provides insight into indoctrination, the Reapers could still use non-indoctrination based infiltration methods.
 
What if an intel chief becomes indoctrinated herself? Well, that would be bad. It’s also highly speculative. Not too far removed from that silly “what if the CB is a trap” argument. Any plan/strategy involves risks of one shape or kind. The risks are manageable.

Edit:  BTW great call on the BattleStar Galactica!  That show is awesome!

What makes you would be any suspicious behavior for you to be able to monitor? For all we know it would happen like flicking a switch and end up with someone pulling a gun on a Councilor or some other important person and shooting them in the head. There could be absolutely zero detectable warning with out current technology.

We simply don't know. I'm not going to take that risk just to keep the base out of TIM's hands.

General User wrote...

I feel this is where TIM gets off. He’s probably willing to even die himself to stop the Reapers but his commitment is less than total. Shepard’s commitment is total, it’s one of the things that makes her so special.

I would say that if Shepard is more committed than TIM it is only because of his experiences with the prothean beacons.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 10 octobre 2010 - 03:55 .

[mosor]

Arijharn wrote...

Driving the base to the Citadel would certainly garner some attention... I would imagine mostly by pirates

Considering the terminus systems are run by pirates. freebooters and mercenaries and not the citadel, you're telling the truth.

[StarGateGod]

mosor wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Driving the base to the Citadel would certainly garner some attention... I would imagine mostly by pirates

Considering the terminus systems are run by pirates. freebooters and mercenaries and not the citadel, you're telling the truth.

you only have to go thru the omega really then right into the next really which is right next door to it, althouigh advance warning of the arrival would be wise wouldnt want the council to over react to a gaint space ship above the citadel, not that they would they seem level headed

[Arijharn]

But the base doesn't have any defenses short of your crew... There are three major pirate groups in the Terminus Systems, all of which have considerable logistic power. If they wanted too, they could easily take the base from your hands...



Unless you're saying by the innate ass kicking capability of Shephard can deter even the most determined.

[Zulu_DFA]

StarGateGod wrote...

mosor wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Driving the base to the Citadel would certainly garner some attention... I would imagine mostly by pirates

Considering the terminus systems are run by pirates. freebooters and mercenaries and not the citadel, you're telling the truth.

you only have to go thru the omega really then right into the next really which is right next door to it, althouigh advance warning of the arrival would be wise wouldnt want the council to over react to a gaint space ship above the citadel, not that they would they seem level headed

The C-Base is gargantuan, probably twice as big as Citadel itself. How would you tow it? Besides, whatever the source of the "save zone in the galactic core" is there, it's on the C-base itself.

It's not exactly portable, says Shepard himself.

[StarGateGod]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

StarGateGod wrote...

mosor wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Driving the base to the Citadel would certainly garner some attention... I would imagine mostly by pirates

Considering the terminus systems are run by pirates. freebooters and mercenaries and not the citadel, you're telling the truth.

you only have to go thru the omega really then right into the next really which is right next door to it, althouigh advance warning of the arrival would be wise wouldnt want the council to over react to a gaint space ship above the citadel, not that they would they seem level headed

The C-Base is gargantuan, probably twice as big as Citadel itself. How would you tow it? Besides, whatever the source of the "save zone in the galactic core" is there, it's on the C-base itself.

It's not exactly portable, says Shepard himself.

i assumed it had its own power source
was really thinking about towing it any where

[xtrider225]

I want to see what happens in both situations eventually. I first chose to destroy the base. To me the base seemed like to first step to indoctrinating the human race, keeping it around hoping to harness something we could use against them I feel is not TIM's objective. TIM's all about power and having more of it. He might want human's to be superior but I really feel like he wants to rule the galaxy.



There may be a lot of reapers out there, but it seems apparent to me that they need our help in some way in order to actually wipe us out. And we proved with sovereign that we can destroy them. The thannix cannon was designed to be able to penetrate reaper armor, but it was not based on reaper technology.



Also, it took the Prometheans a long time to create the backdoor on the Citadel. And we only have 20 years or so between the time of the next game, so I doubt we would even be able to decipher some technology from the base which was mostly used as human harvester.



Anyways, just some of my opinions.

[scarface71795]

xtrider225 wrote...

I want to see what happens in both situations eventually. I first chose to destroy the base. To me the base seemed like to first step to indoctrinating the human race, keeping it around hoping to harness something we could use against them I feel is not TIM's objective. TIM's all about power and having more of it. He might want human's to be superior but I really feel like he wants to rule the galaxy.

There may be a lot of reapers out there, but it seems apparent to me that they need our help in some way in order to actually wipe us out. And we proved with sovereign that we can destroy them. The thannix cannon was designed to be able to penetrate reaper armor, but it was not based on reaper technology.

Also, it took the Prometheans a long time to create the backdoor on the Citadel. And we only have 20 years or so between the time of the next game, so I doubt we would even be able to decipher some technology from the base which was mostly used as human harvester.

Anyways, just some of my opinions.

Um the Turians salvaged sovereigns gun and used it to build a miniaturized  version

[Arijharn]

xtrider225 wrote...
There may be a lot of reapers out there, but it seems apparent to me that they need our help in some way in order to actually wipe us out. And we proved with sovereign that we can destroy them. The thannix cannon was designed to be able to penetrate reaper armor, but it was not based on reaper technology.

Yes it was. Turian 'salvage teams' developed the weapon after a year of study. It says it all there right in the Codex if I'm not mistaken under it's own entry.

xtrider225 wrote...
Also, it took the Prometheans a long time to create the backdoor on the Citadel. And we only have 20 years or so between the time of the next game, so I doubt we would even be able to decipher some technology from the base which was mostly used as human harvester.
.

The Prothean backdoor on the Citadel wasn't really intended to be a 'backdoor,' it was a Prothean proof-of-concept that they could duplicate and understand Mass Relay technology. Considering human technology has caught up to galactic standard (I think Anderson said in ME1 that this was a 200yr gap) in a short amount of time (in less than a generation?), I don't think it impossible that some Collector technology would be understood within a short timeframe, especially since we have the sum total of Collector technology now that we own their 'homeworld.'

I don't think we'd understand all of it by the time the Reapers arrive, but I would imagine that we would understand the more pressing concerns, such as weaponry and other technology immediately useful. I don't trust TIM at all, but I trust him enough to decide prudently what sort of directions are more useful to us in a sense of urgency than others.