2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Aramintai wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
It's indeed as simple as Ieldra2 puts it: Save Base = +1; Blow Base = 0.

Checking numbers...
Cerberus projects' success rate based on ingame observation:
1. Experiments on husks to make shock trooper army - failure. Outcome - husks on the loose, dealt with by Shepard.
2. Experiments on rachni to make shock trooper army - failure. Outcome - rachni on the loose, dealt with by Shepard.
3. Experiments on Thorian creepers to make shock trooper army - failure. Outcome - creepers on the loose, dealt with by Shepard.
4. Silencing admiral Kahoku - success. Outcome - admiral is killed , Shepard knows that it was Cerberus.
5. Project Lazarus - success. Outcome - Shepard is revived and working with Cerberus to stop the Collectors.
5. Project Overlord - failure. Outcome - no useful tech to control geth, test subject proved too unstable, situation dealt with by Shepard.
6. Derelict Reaper project - failure. Outcome - no useful tech to use against the Reapers, whole project crew turned into husks, test subject/base destroyed. Getting IFF from there by Shepard was not part of that project, but rather a part of Lazarus project.
7. Subject Zero project - failure. Test subject escaped, facility closed, no new data on biotics for similar projects.

So, let's see...6 failures, 2 successes...may add that Reaper avatar from the book to one more failure...and numbers show that Cerberus' rate of success is lower that failure. It also shows that usually there is quite a mess to clean after their failures.
So to project that on the above numbers:
Save Base: +/- 1 (with 2/3 chance of another disastrous failure)
Blow Base: 0 (no new tech but also no distractions to deal with later)

Construction of EDI- Success.  Outcome:  Instrumental in navigating the Omega4 relay and evading the surprise Collector ambush.  Calculated way to destroy the Collectors and their Base.

Counter agent against Seeker Swarms- Success.  Outcome:  Successful driving away of Collectors from Horizon.

Construction of Normandy SR2- Success  Outcome: Allowed passage and defensive measures against the Omega4 relay and the Collector Base's external defenses (as well as the Collector ship)

Intelligence gathering against the Shadow Broker- Success.  Outcome:  Liara gets her revenge and becomes the new ShadowBroker.  Former Shadowbroker is no more.


You're looking at 50/50 now.  6 Failures and 6 Successes.  

Note also that the only time the Council/Alliance tested themselves against the Reapers... they too have failed.



EDIT:  You could say Jack was a success in some ways as she was recovered, one of the strongest biotic humans, and is working with Cerberus.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 11 octobre 2010 - 07:24 .

[mosor]

General User wrote...

Which is it? Intelligence or special ops? Special ops are military operations, even if they often, though far from always and not even in this case, have intelligence objectives (individual missions may have intelligence objectives, but the objective of the campaign as a whole, “stop the Collectors” is a military one).

Special ops and intelliegence isn't mutually exclusive. The American  Department of Defense has the Defense Inteligence Agency, and the CIA have their paramilitaries that do combat field operations.

As for the rest. The goal is to stop the collectors. How you ultimately stop them is with good intelligence that you've collected. Otherwise you wouldn't know where to go. You can't separate the two. As for the campaign being military? You serious? You're a bunch of mercs and vegabonds, not an army unit.

[Moiaussi]

According to most anti-Geth posters (as well as official Council doctrine regarding AI's), EDI is a failure, since as an AI she will de facto conclude at some point that organics are her enemies and attempt to kill them all.



Also note that all the successes seem to be related to working with Shepard, rather than independantly.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

According to most anti-Geth posters (as well as official Council doctrine regarding AI's), EDI is a failure, since as an AI she will de facto conclude at some point that organics are her enemies and attempt to kill them all.

Also note that all the successes seem to be related to working with Shepard, rather than independantly.

TIM had safeguards against that.  If any issue arises it's Joker's fault because he plugged in the overlord... let the pie computing commense.


Regarding Shepard, if Cerberus didn't do its job, Shepard would've lost.  Heck, Shepard DID lose without Cerberus.

[Aramintai]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Construction of EDI- Success.  Outcome:  Instrumental in navigating the Omega4 relay and evading the surprise Collector ambush.  Calculated way to destroy the Collectors and their Base.

Counter agent against Seeker Swarms- Success.  Outcome:  Successful driving away of Collectors from Horizon.

Construction of Normandy SR2- Success  Outcome: Allowed passage and defensive measures against the Omega4 relay and the Collector Base's external defenses (as well as the Collector ship)
 

It's all part of the Lazarus project, not a separate one, EDI and Miranda say so themselves, as reviving Shepard was only one of it's objecives.

 
Intelligence gathering against the Shadow Broker- Success.  Outcome:  Liara gets her revenge and becomes the new ShadowBroker.  Former Shadowbroker is no more.

Not a Cerberus project, just a feedback to deal with for Lazarus project team. Counts to the success of the Lazarus project's objectives.

Modifié par Aramintai, 11 octobre 2010 - 07:40 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Aramintai wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Construction of EDI- Success.  Outcome:  Instrumental in navigating the Omega4 relay and evading the surprise Collector ambush.  Calculated way to destroy the Collectors and their Base.

Counter agent against Seeker Swarms- Success.  Outcome:  Successful driving away of Collectors from Horizon.

Construction of Normandy SR2- Success  Outcome: Allowed passage and defensive measures against the Omega4 relay and the Collector Base's external defenses (as well as the Collector ship)
 

It's all part of the Lazarus project, not a separate one, EDI says so herself. 

 
Intelligence gathering against the Shadow Broker- Success.  Outcome:  Liara gets her revenge and becomes the new ShadowBroker.  Former Shadowbroker is no more.

Not a Cerberus project, just a feedback to deal with for Lazarus project team. Counts to the success of the Lazarus project's objectives.

They're tied to the Lazarus project, but they aren't the same.  The Lazarus project is exclusively bringing Shepard back.  Interconnected parts though.

It was a Cerberus project/operation to take down the Shadowbroker.  The Shadowbroker's demise wasn't relevant to Project Lazarus.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 11 octobre 2010 - 07:41 .

[mosor]

Aramintai wrote...

5. Project Overlord - failure. Outcome - no useful tech to control geth, test subject proved too unstable, situation dealt with by Shepard.

Not by a long shot.

6. Derelict Reaper project - failure. Outcome - no useful tech to use against the Reapers, whole project crew turned into husks, test subject/base destroyed. Getting IFF from there by Shepard was not part of that project, but rather a part of Lazarus project.

Really? You think Shepard would have been able to find that tiny little IFF in a 2KM long ship he knows nothing about before he gets indoctrinated? (Assuming he even finds it) The members of that Cerberus team should be given medals posthumously for finding that IFF and leaving it on the table.

7. Subject Zero project - failure. Test subject escaped, facility closed, no new data on biotics for similar projects.

Acension project is doing quite well. I wonder how much of the info and techniques used on Acension came from the Pragia facility data? They did plan to transfer the operations there after all.

So, let's see...6 failures, 2 successes...may add that Reaper avatar from the book to one more failure...and numbers show that Cerberus' rate of success is lower that failure. It also shows that usually there is quite a mess to clean after their failures.

I beg to differ.

Arc Projector:

Shepard,
We recently had an incident involving the geth at one of our
outposts in the Skyllian Verge. Don't worry; I'm not sending you off to
chase anything down. Our operatives waged a highly successful battle
against a geth scouting party and credited their success to a new
advanced electrical attack device that we finally let them take out of
the lab. Since their unit is being reassigned for some rest and
relaxation, I thought you should take custody of the weapon in the
meantime. The weapon is called an arc projector. I sent it to the
Normandy's armory so you can examine it for yourself and use it if you
deem it worthy. It's gone through plenty of tests that indicate it
overloads kinetic barriers and synthetic enemies particularly well, but
laboratory demonstrations are a poor substitute for actual field
reports. We know it works. Now we want to see what it can do in the
right hands. If all goes well, we'll use your tactics to train other
operatives.


Geth Plasma Shotgun

Shepard,



A cell of ours acquired an interesting weapon from the geth. It's much
like a shotgun, but it's higher tech -- something to do with the firing
superconductors that create plasma on impact. Its ammunition is more
specialized than those of our shotguns, but it's not hard to make or
modify. I've arranged delivery of a few of these weapons to the
Normandy.

Sounds like sucesses to me.


Lets not forget the Kestrel Armor, Mattock rifle, incisor sniper rifles the techs developed.. Probably some of the best equipment in game. Let us also not forget the Normandy SR-1 (A project their agents in the alliance pushed to get developed) the Normandy SR-2, and of course EDI.

Modifié par mosor, 11 octobre 2010 - 07:41 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...


Proof of TIM slimly avoiding failure of epic, galaxy harming proportions? Overlord and Grayson. You say Overlord was a success because it yielded information on how to control geth? Yeah, but if it weren't for shepard that thing would've beamed itself off world. And what happens if shepard never goes to help out down at Aite?
You say that that Grayson was under control until the Turians came knocking at the door? Maybe, but an intelligent man would consider all possible outcomes when dealing with an experiment this dangerous, TIM did not.

Just wanted to repost this, as some here are still weighing Cerberus's successes and failures. These two examples alone show that TIM can quite easily **** up another experiment, and luck may not be on his side next time.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Another thing to note regarding my earlier claims of TIM's deeds being ovexaggerated:

Miranda mentions that TIM is usually not as hands on as he is with Shepard. Considering that he wasn't very hands on with Shepard... you can see that operations and the decisions thereof are really in the hands of the teams and not TIM himself. TIM gives guidelines, resources, suggestions, and rules...then says "do it".  However, it's up to the teams and their leader regarding what happens after that.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 11 octobre 2010 - 07:57 .

[Aramintai]

Yes, dividing one single goaled success into multiple little ones, making the experience gained from failure into success and adding some weapons and armor to the pile, half of which were not even developed by any Cerberus project at all is a good way of showing how successful it is. However, knowing that the CB will become another big scientific project exploring the unknown tech, not some simple intel gathering or loot pillaging, the chance of real and immediate success is rather slim compared to chance of disastrous failure.

Modifié par Aramintai, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:00 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...


Proof of TIM slimly avoiding failure of epic, galaxy harming proportions? Overlord and Grayson. You say Overlord was a success because it yielded information on how to control geth? Yeah, but if it weren't for shepard that thing would've beamed itself off world. And what happens if shepard never goes to help out down at Aite?
You say that that Grayson was under control until the Turians came knocking at the door? Maybe, but an intelligent man would consider all possible outcomes when dealing with an experiment this dangerous, TIM did not.

Just wanted to repost this, as some here are still weighing Cerberus's successes and failures. These two examples alone show that TIM can quite easily **** up another experiment, and luck may not be on his side next time.

I think the point of a surprise attack is that you aren't expecting it.  TIM had no idea Grayson sent out that incriminating information before his capture.  Can't really fault him for Grayson, until that point he was in control.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Aramintai wrote...

Yes, dividing one single goaled success into multiple little ones, making the experience gained from failure into success and adding some weapons and armor to the pile, half of which were not even developed by any Cerberus project at all is a good way of showing how successful it is. However, knowing that the CB will become another big scientific project exploring the unknown tech, not some simple intel gathering or loot pillaging, the chance of real and immediate success is rather slim.

Or higher than anyone else who would try... you tend to not repeat mistakes you make.   With Cerberus, each mistake and failure has been unique.  They seem to learn and adapt like is to be expected.  If anyone were to study the Reapers, I'd prefer it be people who understand what they're dealing with.




EDIT:  Another Cerberus project that was successful is the more obvious overarching one... they stopped the Collectors.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:08 .

[Aramintai]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Aramintai wrote...

Yes, dividing one single goaled success into multiple little ones, making the experience gained from failure into success and adding some weapons and armor to the pile, half of which were not even developed by any Cerberus project at all is a good way of showing how successful it is. However, knowing that the CB will become another big scientific project exploring the unknown tech, not some simple intel gathering or loot pillaging, the chance of real and immediate success is rather slim.

Or higher than anyone else who would try... you tend to not repeat mistakes you make... and Cerberus happened, each mistake and failure has been unique.  They seem to learn and adapt like is to be expected.  If anyone were to study the Reapers, I'd prefer it be people who understand what they're dealing with.

It's all good and fine, but this time there's imminent Reapers threat, who will not wait for years for Cerberus to figure our their mistakes. And Cerberus does not understand with what they are dealing with any better than the next group.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...


Proof of TIM slimly avoiding failure of epic, galaxy harming proportions? Overlord and Grayson. You say Overlord was a success because it yielded information on how to control geth? Yeah, but if it weren't for shepard that thing would've beamed itself off world. And what happens if shepard never goes to help out down at Aite?
You say that that Grayson was under control until the Turians came knocking at the door? Maybe, but an intelligent man would consider all possible outcomes when dealing with an experiment this dangerous, TIM did not.

Just wanted to repost this, as some here are still weighing Cerberus's successes and failures. These two examples alone show that TIM can quite easily **** up another experiment, and luck may not be on his side next time.

I think the point of a surprise attack is that you aren't expecting it.  TIM had no idea Grayson sent out that incriminating information before his capture.  Can't really fault him for Grayson, until that point he was in control.

Like i said, dealing with a potential galaxy ruining experiment, i think it's intelligent to take extra steps to secure your base and upgrade your ship detecting hardware.

If he can't run these tests intelligently, then i do not trust him with the collector base.

[mosor]

Aramintai wrote...

Yes, dividing one single goaled success into multiple little ones, making the experience gained from failure into success and adding some weapons and armor to the pile, half of which were not even developed by any Cerberus project at all is a good way of showing how successful it is. However, knowing that the CB will become another big scientific project exploring the unknown tech, not some simple intel gathering or loot pillaging, the chance of real and immediate success is rather slim.

Actually every weapon and armor I listed was developed by cerberus techs or acquired by their commandos. As for sucesses. Stopping the collectors was a gigantic Cerberus sucesss,  Wait you did it, not Cerberus? Come on now. Even ignoring the BS ressurection.

1.They provided you with a ship, funds and crew.  And dossiers on a bad ass squad you can recruit and rely on.
2. They provided you an opportunity to punch the collectors on the nose on Horizon, which effectively stopped the colonist abductions until you had an opportunity to put them down for good.
3. They discovered both the derelict reaper and the Klendeggon supergun. Their team located the IFF at the sacrifice of their own lives.
4. They developed EDI out of reaper tech. Her cyberwarfare programs is absolutely pivital in the sucess of stopping the collectors. Since the intel she datamined helps you on every turn, and her overrides of their internal security helps you navigate their ship and base without being stuck at a dead end,  She clearly doesn't get enough credit, but frankly after Shepard, is the most important reason the collectors were stopped.

But no. it's me me me, all me. Cerberus had nothing to do with it. I would have stopped the colelctors without them, Cerberus can't be trusted with reaper tech, even though EDI, is the single most important reason I suceeded.

Modifié par mosor, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:15 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Aramintai wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Aramintai wrote...

Yes, dividing one single goaled success into multiple little ones, making the experience gained from failure into success and adding some weapons and armor to the pile, half of which were not even developed by any Cerberus project at all is a good way of showing how successful it is. However, knowing that the CB will become another big scientific project exploring the unknown tech, not some simple intel gathering or loot pillaging, the chance of real and immediate success is rather slim.

Or higher than anyone else who would try... you tend to not repeat mistakes you make... and Cerberus happened, each mistake and failure has been unique.  They seem to learn and adapt like is to be expected.  If anyone were to study the Reapers, I'd prefer it be people who understand what they're dealing with.

It's all good and fine, but this time there's imminent Reapers threat, who will not wait for years for Cerberus to figure our their mistakes. And Cerberus does not understand with what they are dealing with any better than the next group.

The Grayson experiment proves otherwise, TIM was aware of the nanites... I hadn't heard of that before.  Cerberus knows more about the Reapers right now than anyone.  I highly doubt this can be disputed.

TIM has logs of information (whenever it's sent to TIM anyway), on his failures that I'm sure he takes notes from and cautions the next group against should they try it again.

Like i said, dealing with a potential galaxy ruining experiment, i think it's intelligent to take extra steps to secure your base and upgrade your ship detecting hardware.

If he can't run these tests intelligently, then i do not trust him with the collector base.

It was a controlled experiment (Grayson) and the CB can be bombed from "orbit" if necessary.  It's no secret that TIM is killable and the Alliance/Council raid on that base proved it.  He did have defenses, they were just beaten by the Alliance forces.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:15 .

[Aramintai]

mosor wrote...

1.They provided you with a ship, funds and crew.  An dossiers on a bad ass squad you can recruit and rely on.
2. They provided you an opportunity to punch the collectors on the nose on Horizon, which effectively stopped the colonist abductions until you had an opportunity to put them down for good.
3. They discovered both the derelict reaper and the Klendeggon supergun. Their team located the IFF at the sacrifice of their own lives.
4. They developed EDI out of reaper tech. Her cyberwarfare programs is absolutely pivital in the sucess of stopping the collectors. Since the intel she datamined helps you on every turn, and her overrides of their internal security helps you navigate their ship and base without being stuck at a dead end,  She clearly doesn't get enough credit, but frankly after Shepard, is the most important reason the collectors were stopped.

All points except Nr. 3 are part of the same project bent on sole purpose of stopping the Collectors.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Which was a bump in the road to their main focus of stopping the Reapers.  As a matter of fact, it was in trying to stop the Reapers that TIM stumbled onto the Collectors and saw a connection.


If TIM continues applying himself to stopping the Reapers like he's been doing to stop the Collectors, he should only prove to be useful... and if not that, then worse case scenario, another person to take care of..

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:21 .

[Aramintai]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
The Grayson experiment proves otherwise, TIM was aware of the nanites... I hadn't heard of that before.  Cerberus knows more about the Reapers right now than anyone.  I highly doubt this can be disputed.

TIM has logs of information (whenever it's sent to TIM anyway), on his failures that I'm sure he takes notes from and cautions the next group against should they try it again.

Does Cerberus really know? Looking at results it seems that Reaper tech is as unknown area to them as it was before and wisdom to use it is still as lacking. And time to figure it out into something useful is becoming a luxury.
And as base keepers like to point out - bringing in facts outside the game is metagaming, not to be accounted for in this topic, so no book references even they were a failure. 

[mosor]

Aramintai wrote...

mosor wrote...

1.They provided you with a ship, funds and crew.  An dossiers on a bad ass squad you can recruit and rely on.
2. They provided you an opportunity to punch the collectors on the nose on Horizon, which effectively stopped the colonist abductions until you had an opportunity to put them down for good.
3. They discovered both the derelict reaper and the Klendeggon supergun. Their team located the IFF at the sacrifice of their own lives.
4. They developed EDI out of reaper tech. Her cyberwarfare programs is absolutely pivital in the sucess of stopping the collectors. Since the intel she datamined helps you on every turn, and her overrides of their internal security helps you navigate their ship and base without being stuck at a dead end,  She clearly doesn't get enough credit, but frankly after Shepard, is the most important reason the collectors were stopped.

All points except Nr. 3 are part of the same project bent on sole purpose of stopping the Collectors.

Yes but you're ignoring the fact that the stopping the collector project is a culmination of various other projects and assets used to support it. For instance, EDI was developed by a separate project.  Regardless, a 1000 little failures when it doesn't count  is worth 1 gigantic success when it does. Cerberus pulled through when they needed to, and EDI proves cerberus can make reaper tech work for us.

[Inverness Moon]

I believe it is flawed logic to only base your decision on what to do with the base on Cerberus's successes and/or failures. If you do, you're placing more importance upon the possible threat or failure of Cerberus than on the certain and genocidal threat of the reapers. The only explanation for that is metagaming.

Edit: Also, for those of you counting Cerberus's successes and failures, the number of each is irrelevant unless you weigh the results of each project. Bringing Shepard back from the dead is such an immense success that it far outweighs every other failure of Cerberus if you are going to judge them based on such things.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:39 .

[Aramintai]

mosor wrote...
 Cerberus pulled through when they needed to, and EDI proves cerberus can make reaper tech work for us.

Where does it say that EDI is a Reaper tech? 
I can agree to allow Cerberus to conduct boundary pushing projects that do not involve fumbling with a completely unfamiliar tech taken from a hostile entities of unknown origin, as they are at least more or less explored and precaution measures can be implemented. But when the result is completely based on luck then the outcome can be extrapolated based only on the success rate of similar projects, which is not looking good. So I can logically expect the worst and make the choice not in Cerberus favor. Not dismissing the danger of failure and expecting the worst is as valid as dismissing it and hoping for the best. And as it was said here before the decision in the game must be made in mere seconds during which TIM is not really making his case any better, reminding Shepard once again just how ruthless and heedless of danger Cerberus can be. 

Modifié par Aramintai, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:43 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Aramintai wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
The Grayson experiment proves otherwise, TIM was aware of the nanites... I hadn't heard of that before.  Cerberus knows more about the Reapers right now than anyone.  I highly doubt this can be disputed.

TIM has logs of information (whenever it's sent to TIM anyway), on his failures that I'm sure he takes notes from and cautions the next group against should they try it again.

Does Cerberus really know? Looking at results it seems that Reaper tech is as unknown area to them as it was before and wisdom to use it is still as lacking. And time to figure it out into something useful is becoming a luxury.
And as base keepers like to point out - bringing in facts outside the game is metagaming, not to be accounted for in this topic, so no book references even they were a failure. 

No one's moving faster than Cerberus in preparing for the Reapers.  For better or worse, they're the best chance at finding something during the time of the CB decision.

Where does it say that EDI is a Reaper tech? 

"When pressed on this subject by Shepard as to how she could hope to combat beings millions of years more advanced, she reveals that she was in part designed by technology gained from Sovereign's remains and thus, at least partially, based on Reaper technology herself. "    -Mass Effect Wiki

But she does say this when you talk to her about it.

[Jabarai]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
... IT'S THE ULTIMATE CONTRADICTION

"I won't let fear compromise who I am.... but I'm AFRAID of What TIM may do with it."

Meanwhile he had no problem using a prothean cypher, mass relays, Legion, EDI, the IFF, or any other tech that can grant an edge... including tech from Cerberus.

I find Shepard's line rather well versed. The ultimate fear is the Reaper threat. Researching and deploying a base designed to foul and humiliate organic races would be compromising one's view on who is the enemy.

I also find it a bit disappointing that people see such emotional approach as weak. But I'll leave it at that.

[Inverness Moon]

Jabarai wrote...

I find Shepard's line rather well versed. The ultimate fear is the Reaper threat. Researching and deploying a base designed to foul and humiliate organic races would be compromising one's view on who is the enemy.

Please explain how researching how reapers are made (offenses, defenses, indoctrination), how they can be destroyed, and searching the base for intelligence (the number of reapers there are, their previous methods of extermination) compromises one's view of who the enemy is.

If you're suggesting TIM is going to use the base to make more reapers I suggest you think deeply about how illogical such a course of action is.

Also, people see the emotional approach as weak because it results in nonsensical and illogical reasoning.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 11 octobre 2010 - 09:59 .