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[General User]

[quote]Arijharn wrote...

[quote]General User wrote...

Cool, OK,  a few points
 
1.            The Reapers do indeed take new technology when they harvest organics, but they always harvest organics at the same stage in galactic civilization, and even then only every 50,000 years or so new technology is rare and incidental for Reapers. And, much more importantly, innovation is nonexistent.
[/quote]

This statement can't be true because we aren't at the stage of constructing mass relays ourselves unlike the Protheans who despite Vigil saying were at the 'cusp' actually had a working example between Ilos and the Citadel itself. That asari matriarch states that they should, but that doesn't really mean anything does it?[/quote]



Seems true to me, Sovereign sure thought so. He actually thought the “harvest time” was a little while ago. The Reaper “Plan A” only failed because of those Prothean scientists.
 
I did indeed interpreted Aethyta’s(sp?) remarks very differently. Her story honestly reminded me of an American advocating passionately for a European style rail network in the US. A massive public works project whose undeniable benefits may or may not outweigh the truly enormous outlays and expenditures required. A very controversial idea, but nothing that would be impossible or unfeasible with existing technology.
 
She does say “they laughed the blue off my ass” so it is, admittedly, very much open to interpretation. 


In fairness though she was also an advocate of a fairly radical restructuring of asari society (“get our daughters working younger” blah, blah, blah). In my experience calling for radical social change tends to illicit a far more emotional response (exile to the fringes of asari space) from a given audience than proposed changes to a transportation network.
 
[quote]

I agree that Dreadnoughts will be marginalized in the upcoming conflict. Personally I think with all the talk about Humanity being great pioneers with dedicated Carrier's then the fights will be a lot more 'close quarters.'

[/quote]



I think we’re pretty much at consensus on this one. The Reapers overwhelming qualitative and quantitative advantages in dreadnoughts, make any sort of conventional, fleet-on-fleet, engagement a massacre. The onus is on the galactic admirals to make sure something like that doesn’t happen. Small units, hit and run, hard and fast, supreme emphasis on coordination between ground and space forces. That’s the way to beat the Reapers!

 
[quote]General User wrote...
‧           Concerning Reaper barriers; they are most definitely stronger than anything our side can produce or break.  But my point was that they ARE barriers, a know technology simply a great deal stronger.  In other words, our tech difference in this vital field is less one of research and development than engineering.
[/quote]
I understood your basic point, but I'm not sure of it's effectiveness. Obviously, adopting any new technology from the Collector's is a gamble, but I'm obviously banking on the idea that it'd pay off with greater results than essentially just using trial and error with increasing the yield of 'basic' mass accelerated weaponry.

[/quote]



You’re right; the critical factor has to be time, how much we have and how optimistic you are about our chances. If the Reapers were going to be in Citadel space in a very short time (<  1 yearish), I’d save that CB faster than you can spit, it would be a desperation move at that point. 
 
As I don’t know how long we have, am confident in our tech/industrial base, and honestly proud of the job we’ve done against the Reapers so far I’m not inclined to make desperate moves.

[mosor]

You’re right; the critical factor has to be time, how much we have and how optimistic you are about our chances. If the Reapers were going to be in Citadel space in a very short time (<  1 yearish), I’d save that CB faster than you can spit, it would be a desperation move at that point.    As I don’t know how long we have, am confident in our tech/industrial base, and honestly proud of the job we’ve done against the Reapers so far I’m not inclined to make desperate moves.

1. We don't know how much time we have. I'd rather err on the side of caution and act like they'll be here tomorrow.

2. Saving the collector base is far from a desperation move. When someone gets murdered, does a coroner not do an autopsy? If you captured a terrorist base that has bioweapons, would you simply destroy it? Or would you ransack it for intelliegnce on thier operations, figure out exactly what bioweapon they are using, so you can study it an take precautions? Destroying it out of hand seems to be the rash thing to do.

 

3. Whats to be confident about? Sovereign alone destroyed the citadel fleet. None of the ships, council and human alike could even penetrate sovereign's kenetic barriers. For some reason, destroying saren while sovereign possessed him dropped those barriers. Don't ask me why, but that's the only reason Sovereign was defeated. I'm not confident in our chances against an entire fleet of reapers, and who knows what other tricks they may possess that we have no clue about, but maybe can learn if we save the base.

 

4. Proud of the job we did against the reapers so far? We survived by the skin of our teeth! Devestated worlds, devestated fleets and a few extra seconds sovereign would have opened the relay. We were lucky. Being a game, I'm sure our luck will hold. Without metagaming, I wouldn't take that chance at all.

[Haventh]

On my characters i destroyed the collector base because:
- Reaper/Collector technology is not our own, and the Reapers might have devices used to disable the tech other races use, that is based upon their tech. A good example is the mass relays, see how the reapers turned that against the galaxy.

- To ****** of TIM. My paragons (haven't made a devoted renegade yet). Neither of my current characters like him, they think he is an oppurunistic bastard who does everything. Even though my paragon is ruthless against evil/cruel people, he still see the line, TIM don't. 

- If the galaxy shall support my Shepard's he believe it is best to do it through wise choices that is not too ruthless.
Whats the point if the hero is like the reapers?

I have yet to play a renegade playthrough, before i do that i want to play renegade in ME 1. 

[lovgreno]

mosor wrote...

Reasons for destroying the base:

1. Duh, it's the top option. Therefore it has to be the good option. I want my paragon points.

2. I was on my period and wanted nothing more than to break something.

3. I like pretty explosions

4. TIM is the devil and therefore much more dangerous than the reapers.

5. Cerberus resurrected me, gave me plenty of state of the art weapons their operatives developed or collected around the galaxy, built a better Normandy, created EDI, developed anti-reaper algorithms for her to use, financed my missions, and gave me intel and tools to enter the omega-4 relay to stop the collectors, but they're obviously incompetent.

6. Reaper tech indoctrinates. Quick chuck EDI and the Thannix cannon out the airlock before we become mindless husks! Ohh no! The citadel is reaper tech! We can't step foot in there! Oh my god...the council,,,,that's why they stonewall my efforts to investigate the reapers! The council chamber must be where the indoctrination device is located! Purge them!

7. Extinction for everyone is better than compromising my morality. I'm positive all the other people, human an alien alike will appreciate me endangering them for my moral stance.

Edit: Oh I forgot the most important one!

8. Reaper tech leads us to paths the reapers desire! Derstroying the base is just the first step in my jihad against all things reaper. Next up. The mass relays and mass accelerator weapons! We'll take care of dem reapers with good ole guwnpowder based weapons and nukes! We'll use old fashioned ion engines to catch them instead of FTL.

You are not even trying to see things from a different perspective than your own. I'm sure you have enough imagination to find good reasons for destroying the base in the ME story. But instead you try to mock opposing opinions, wich frankly proves nothing. Think out of your box sometimes, you might find it interesting. Especialy as one of the main themes of Mass Effect are that there are no right or wrong choices and that no one is truly all good or all bad. But simplifications like "Those who blows up the base are stupid" are easier and less complicated I guess.

[General User]

mosor wrote...

1. We don't know how much time we have. I'd rather err on the side of caution and act like they'll be here tomorrow.

If the Reapers were going to be here tomorrow panic (or panicked reaction) may well an appropriate response, caution would be unsuitable were that the case. It's a tough call, no doubt about that. 

mosor wrote...

2. Saving the collector base is far from a desperation move. When someone gets murdered, does a coroner not do an autopsy? If you captured a terrorist base that has bioweapons, would you simply destroy it? Or would you ransack it for intelliegnce on thier operations, figure out exactly what bioweapon they are using, so you can study it an take precautions? Destroying it out of hand seems to be the rash thing to do.

Umm… I’m not sure I follow either of those analogies. A coroner performs an autopsy to ascertain the circumstances of a person’s death. The circumstances surrounding collector activities were not in doubt. As for terrorists with bioweapons, well, we already know what the Reapers are doing, and we’ve even got a pretty good idea how they intend to do it. What we don’t know is why, the question least likely to be answered on the CB.
 
The closest analogy I can think of for the CB is a bizarre mix of breeding ground and shipyard. “How?” is a good question to ask there. How do they make their barriers/weapons so strong? And can we replicate them? How can (if it can) indoctrination be prevented or reversed? These are vital questions that may be answered by an intact CB, but they are also questions that can be answered elsewhere, and they are far from the most important question about the Reapers.
 

mosor wrote...

3. Whats to be confident about? Sovereign alone destroyed the citadel fleet. None of the ships, council and human alike could even penetrate sovereign's kenetic barriers. For some reason, destroying saren while sovereign possessed him dropped those barriers. Don't ask me why, but that's the only reason Sovereign was defeated. I'm not confident in our chances against an entire fleet of reapers, and who knows what other tricks they may possess that we have no clue about, but maybe can learn if we save the base.

 


Killing robo-zombo-Saren wasn’t the reason Sovereign was defeated, it was HOW Sovereign was defeated. The reason Sovereign was defeated was because Shepard never gave up searching for the truth behind Eden Prime and the Prothean Beacon and inspired others to do the same or similar. 

In the process revealing a serious weakness in the Reapers, destroy their avatars and they get knocked for a loop, easy prey for even scout ships.
 
We shouldn’t be worried about Reaper tricks, they should be worried about ours. We’re young, smart, strong, physically and mentally flexible, while they’ve been stuck in the same pattern for umpteen million years. Truth be told I’m skeptical that the Reapers even have the capacity for innovative thought, at least in the same way we do. They certainly haven’t shown a heck of a lot so far.
 
We might not stand a chance against their fleet, so we don’t fight their fleet, at least not right away. Hit ‘em were they’re weak, find the things they want/need and take ‘em or blow ‘em up. It’s asymmetric warfare and it’s how superpowers are defeated.

mosor wrote...

4. Proud of the job we did against the reapers so far? We survived by the skin of our teeth! Devestated worlds, devestated fleets and a few extra seconds sovereign would have opened the relay. We were lucky. Being a game, I'm sure our luck will hold. Without metagaming, I wouldn't take that chance at all.

Exactly!  We survived so far.  No one else, that we know of, in at least 37 million years can make that claim!
The Reapers got close, really close, but “close” only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. By my score card it’s 4-1 Shepard, with the Reapers only point under review (“I got better…”). We were lucky, but we were also good.

[Dean_the_Young]

smudboy wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Giving some terrorist dude most advance thing in the galaxy that did a lot of experiments on his own spices even though he claims he is pro-for that species?
That's very smart!



Note.

I have 3 Shep's in which I give Cerberus base( 1 Renegade, 1 Paragade and 1 Paragon Shep),

TIM did not do, nor was aware, nor condoned, experiments on his own species.

Now this I have to disagree with. While we have cases in which TIM was not aware at all (Overlord), and was not aware of the scope (Pragia), there are times he was aware of the existence and pushed it. Retribution, for example, and Akuze, and Project Trapdoor's experiements with making human biotics immune to biotic blocking, and I doubt he didn't know that Pragia wouldn't experiement at all (it was what he didn't know there that mattered). TIM is more than capable of conducting experiments on his own species.

What should be disagreed with is the assertion that testing on one's own group disqualifies or prevents any overall benefit to the group. It's a viewpoint that posits that any individual harm does nothing for overall good, which is untrue in so many cases, instances, and examples that it would be pointless to start listing them. Argue the ethics of doing it all you want, but don't mistake the loss of individuals as incompatible with gains for the whole.

[Nightwriter]

I feel that's making sweeping generalizations. Whether or not the suffering of an individual is worth it for the good of the many should be judged on a case by case basis. "It may help humanity" is not a magic license that gives you the right to hurt any individual in any situation.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

I feel that's making sweeping generalizations. Whether or not the suffering of an individual is worth it for the good of the many should be judged on a case by case basis. "It may help humanity" is not a magic license that gives you the right to hurt any individual in any situation.

Certainly: even Shand and I would prefer to bring Cerberus to heel in the future. But it's a generalization about a universal claim that really doesn't stand, which was more my point. It's very easy to find cases where the gains of the whole do not validate the losses of the few, but that wasn't the point.

I dislike bringing something as abstract as game theory to bear, but it is a good demonstration of why the universalism does not exist. Take a look at Dragon Age, for example: the point of combat is to keep your health positive, and take your enemies down to negative. If your health drops to zero, you lose.

By the previous logic, anything that decreased your own health would be a doomed, idiotic, counter-productive maneuver. After all, if you do it, you lose health, and come closer to losing.

But blood magic is one of the most powerful modes in the game. Even without the specialty techniques, as awesome as they are, simply the ability to use health to cast spells is priceless because of what it opens up for you: you can cast spells at the cost of health, leave your mana untouched, and then switch back to mana to cast a healing spell. You effectively have unlimited magic, limited only by rate. When you factor in the Blood Mage abilities themselves, forces that would kill any other mage become beatable. Even though you never stop losing health.

Individual vs. collective delimmas can (can, I said: not always are) be like that. The loss of an individual (a piece of health, someone's property, rights, or even loss) can benefit the group disproportionately. A soldier's last stand allowing a platoon precious time to regroup and reorganize, an aid worker's pious but hard life giving hope and aid to many unfortunates, the tax money of one rich man paying for the medical services of a dozen. Even a doctor cutting into a man's flesh to remove a tumor. Many, many greater benefits come from smaller sacrifices.

It certainly is an area that deserves, needs, evaluation. The ethics deserve to be debated. But it can not simply be dismissed out of hand as untrue.

[Nightwriter]

A very well put together post, a good analogy, and certainly agreed upon. However, in blood mage combat the effectiveness of blood magic is tangible and assured. You know the sacrifice of your health will yield results that will make it worth the sacrifice and win you the battle.

Too often Cerberus makes the most heinous of sacrifices to get a reward that is not guaranteed. That is the nature of experimental technology, and I don't expect it to be any different. To sacrifice your own health to hurt an enemy is one thing, but to sacrifice another's, on a 50% chance that it will actually work, on a 50% chance that the enemy is actually an enemy who will hurt you, with a 50% chance it will just blow up and kill everyone in the area, good or bad?

This seems to be the way it goes for Cerberus, most of the time. I agree with you in theory, but in practice Cerberus fails to to demonstrate that theory in the way it deserves.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

A very well put together post, a good analogy, and certainly agreed upon. However, in blood mage combat the effectiveness of blood magic is tangible and assured. You know the sacrifice of your health will yield results that will make it worth the sacrifice and win you the battle.

Consider, however, the costs that went into studying and expanding blood magic, let alone in its use. It's only assured because monsters (demons and Archons) went about testing and studying it... with the unwilling help of others. 

Too often Cerberus makes the most heinous of sacrifices to get a reward that is not guaranteed. That is the nature of experimental technology, and I don't expect it to be any different. To sacrifice your own health to hurt an enemy is one thing, but to sacrifice another's, on a 50% chance that it will actually work, on a 50% chance that the enemy is actually an enemy who will hurt you, with a 50% chance it will just blow up and kill everyone in the area, good or bad?

It depends on the context and the pressures. In the aftermath of the First Contact War, when humanity's first experience with an Alien race was being attacked, invaded, and then the preparation to attempt to bomb it back into the stone age and vassalize it? (Turian military doctrine.) Well, in real life I know we'd do a lot more in the face of that.

If there's one horrible case of blowback in the Mass Effect universe, it's the Turian attack on humanity. Without it, Cerberus wouldn't even exist, at least not in the form we know it as. 'Survivalist' wouldn't be close to a reasonable public policy had first contact been with, say, the Asari or Hanar. The Turians put the fear of aliens into humanity, and that well founded fear prompts Cerberus.

This seems to be the way it goes for Cerberus, most of the time. I agree with you in theory, but in practice Cerberus fails to to demonstrate that theory in the way it deserves.

I disagree that we can make any hope of an accurate assessment. Project costs, when they exist, may well be like failure to domesticate animals: as the saying goes, all domesticatable animals can be domesticated for similar reasons, but every undomesticatable animal can't be domesticated for its own.

Consider the loss of life between, say, Overlord, Teltin, and Trapdoor. The reasons and circumstances of the loss of life were different for each, but each provided various tangible successes. Teltin, for worse, produced Jack and had other biotic research (such as the immunity to biotic-suppressant drugs mentioned in shadow broker files). Overlord found something that promised results first, and disaster followed after for separate reasons. Trapdoor found results during the process of experimentation.

That all said, I strongly agree with the 'in the way it deserves', but I believe that's a weakness of the writing, not the authorial intent of the organization. I know if I wrote for Cerberus, I'd put more emphasis on horrific but undeniably sucessful projects, and less on disasters.

[UNAVAILABLE]

Alright, I'm going to take another crack at this Base thing from another angle.

The Collector Base is not as significant a scientific discovery as it might initially seem. It's based on a lot of maybe we can do this, and we might be able to learn that, but I want to get back to one of the main points that we know for a fact. Vigil told us that one of the Reapers main objectives is to lock down the mass relays, and isolate each star cluster. If they succeed in that, they pretty much have won. No matter what kind of awesome weapons can be devoloped from the Base tech, it can't help if you can't get your weapons to the battlefield.

I suggest then, that the most important thing in the galaxy to study is the Conduit. In fact I would dedicate 100% of scientific resources to that project. Whereas the Reapers developed their mass relays to be incomprehensible, there is no reason to believe the Protheans would have done the same. Assuming we can unlock the secrets of the Conduit, then the next step is to learn how to modify the Reaper made mass relays. Since it is unlikely that replacing even a fraction of the existing relays is a feasible project, every effort must be made to discover and disable the mechanism by which the Reapers intend to lock us out of their relays.

My belief is that this one technological discovery has the greatest potential to change the upcoming event from a brutal massacre into a brutal shooting war.

So from this perspective, the question becomes "how likely are we to accomplish all this AND study the Base before the Reapers get here?" My guess is that we'll be lucky if we can even get all the relays modified before the Reapers are here. At that point I'd rather create a few Reaper corpses for the science teams to study. I feel the data that they would get from the corpses of Reapers that I am fighting would be more relevant to the battle than a factory that's configured to build a type of Reaper that I'm not fighting (human Reapers).

Conclusion: It's irrelevant. If I have to hinge the fate of the galaxy on a scientific gamble, it seems the secret of the mass relays is the way to go. Should be far less risky too. However, If you keep the Base, don't complain to me when every other mission in ME3 is "find out what's become of the science team studying the Base" :happy:

[mosor]

lovgreno wrote...

You are not even trying to see things from a different perspective than your own. I'm sure you have enough imagination to find good reasons for destroying the base in the ME story. But instead you try to mock opposing opinions, wich frankly proves nothing. Think out of your box sometimes, you might find it interesting. Especialy as one of the main themes of Mass Effect are that there are no right or wrong choices and that no one is truly all good or all bad. But simplifications like "Those who blows up the base are stupid" are easier and less complicated I guess.

Sorry, I mock those reasons because none of the reasons I've seen are based on any logic or fact. Just fear, emotionalism, greater paranoia about a potential cerberus threat compared to a reaper threat, and some lame ass philosophy about aquiring technology makes us advance along the paths reapers desire. The last point ignores the fact that we already advanced far down that road and the only way we're going to get off that road is to either overshoot it by aquiring more than the reapers intended or hide in some bushes.

Quite frankly the only argument I really respect is the emotional one. Seeing the horrors of the base, it's quite understandable to destroy it out of impulse and rage. I don't agree with it, but I can certainly understand it at the heat of the moment.

I'm not implying you people who destroy the base are stupid by saying there is no logic to those arguments. I actually think you're all quite intelligent, and I wouldn't bother replying to dumbasses.

As for decisions. You're right. No matter what you decide, things will work out and the reapers are destined to be stopped. Saving or destroying the base isn't going to hinder you from stopping the reapers because this is a video game and Shepard has plot armor. However, I'm arguing from the perspective of actually being in that situation. Knowing what the stakes are in the heat of the moment.

[chris025657]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Alright, I'm going to take another crack at this Base thing from another angle.

The Collector Base is not as significant a scientific discovery as it might initially seem. It's based on a lot of maybe we can do this, and we might be able to learn that, but I want to get back to one of the main points that we know for a fact. Vigil told us that one of the Reapers main objectives is to lock down the mass relays, and isolate each star cluster. If they succeed in that, they pretty much have won. No matter what kind of awesome weapons can be devoloped from the Base tech, it can't help if you can't get your weapons to the battlefield.

I suggest then, that the most important thing in the galaxy to study is the Conduit. In fact I would dedicate 100% of scientific resources to that project. Whereas the Reapers developed their mass relays to be incomprehensible, there is no reason to believe the Protheans would have done the same. Assuming we can unlock the secrets of the Conduit, then the next step is to learn how to modify the Reaper made mass relays. Since it is unlikely that replacing even a fraction of the existing relays is a feasible project, every effort must be made to discover and disable the mechanism by which the Reapers intend to lock us out of their relays.

My belief is that this one technological discovery has the greatest potential to change the upcoming event from a brutal massacre into a brutal shooting war.

So from this perspective, the question becomes "how likely are we to accomplish all this AND study the Base before the Reapers get here?" My guess is that we'll be lucky if we can even get all the relays modified before the Reapers are here. At that point I'd rather create a few Reaper corpses for the science teams to study. I feel the data that they would get from the corpses of Reapers that I am fighting would be more relevant to the battle than a factory that's configured to build a type of Reaper that I'm not fighting (human Reapers).

Conclusion: It's irrelevant. If I have to hinge the fate of the galaxy on a scientific gamble, it seems the secret of the mass relays is the way to go. Should be far less risky too. However, If you keep the Base, don't complain to me when every other mission in ME3 is "find out what's become of the science team studying the Base" :happy:

I don't see how the decision to keep or destroy the base is relevant to the Reaper's ability to control mass relays. This ability doesn't change whether the base is kept or destroyed. It would be a bit ridiculous if all the scientists in the galaxy could only study one thing at time. After all, Cerberus alone simultaneously brought Shepard back from the dead while rebuilding and improving the most advanced ship in the galaxy. 

Anyway, it's true that it isn't known what can be learned from the Collector base and partially completed Reaper. However, by destroying it you've assured that nothing will be learned. 

Modifié par chris025657, 28 septembre 2010 - 12:33 .

[Dean_the_Young]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Alright, I'm going to take another crack at this Base thing from another angle.

The Collector Base is not as significant a scientific discovery as it might initially seem. It's based on a lot of maybe we can do this, and we might be able to learn that, but I want to get back to one of the main points that we know for a fact. Vigil told us that one of the Reapers main objectives is to lock down the mass relays, and isolate each star cluster. If they succeed in that, they pretty much have won. No matter what kind of awesome weapons can be devoloped from the Base tech, it can't help if you can't get your weapons to the battlefield.

I suggest then, that the most important thing in the galaxy to study is the Conduit. In fact I would dedicate 100% of scientific resources to that project. Whereas the Reapers developed their mass relays to be incomprehensible, there is no reason to believe the Protheans would have done the same. Assuming we can unlock the secrets of the Conduit, then the next step is to learn how to modify the Reaper made mass relays. Since it is unlikely that replacing even a fraction of the existing relays is a feasible project, every effort must be made to discover and disable the mechanism by which the Reapers intend to lock us out of their relays.

My belief is that this one technological discovery has the greatest potential to change the upcoming event from a brutal massacre into a brutal shooting war.

So from this perspective, the question becomes "how likely are we to accomplish all this AND study the Base before the Reapers get here?" My guess is that we'll be lucky if we can even get all the relays modified before the Reapers are here. At that point I'd rather create a few Reaper corpses for the science teams to study. I feel the data that they would get from the corpses of Reapers that I am fighting would be more relevant to the battle than a factory that's configured to build a type of Reaper that I'm not fighting (human Reapers).

Conclusion: It's irrelevant. If I have to hinge the fate of the galaxy on a scientific gamble, it seems the secret of the mass relays is the way to go. Should be far less risky too.

Good thinking. Mind if I try to take a bat to its knees?

Your basis lies that re-making the Mass Relay network would win the war, in and of itself (given your commitment of 100% of resources to the task). But you don't give a 'how' it does that.

It doesn't stop the Reapers moving around: they can simply use your relays, even if you manage to find a way to destroy theirs, and they're already proving themselves capable of extreme FTL from Dark Space: why can't they simply fly across the galaxy? No matter what you do for galactic infrastructure, you're still going to fight them. And for that you're going to need to overcome their superior shields, weapons, armor, and engines... when you've just neutered all development in order to focus on the relays.

Closing off the Mass Relays wasn't the goal of the Reapers, it was a means. The goal, as much as it was, was to take the Citadel to block organic movement. As long as you keep the Citadel, they can't do that. Even if they do, the Reaper IFF offers a means around it.


Another issue is who is supposed to do this? There is no galactic unity against the Reapers right now. No major preparation. How do you hope to get a 100% of the galaxy's resources focused on this one task when maybe 90% don't even know or acknowledge the threat exists? 

Without the galactic unity, many question come up. Who's paying for it? Who has the resources, the political will? The last Asari Matriarch who suggested building new Relays now serves drinks at a bar. Who is unifying the galaxy for this, and how is he or she enforcing it if/when various species have their own priorities and ideas of how to prepare?


A third dispute is that the Collector Base wouldn't help you in this. Clearly the Collectors demonstrated various knowledges of the relays only known to the Reapers. And Mass Relay technology is Reaper technology as well, which we are told the base holds tons of. If you were comitted to trying to crack the Relays, past even the Prothean's meager attempt, why wouldn't you look for that knowledge in the base as well?



But overall I give this a 9/10 for originality.

However, If you keep the Base, don't complain to me when every other
mission in ME3 is "find out what's become of the science team studying
the Base" [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie]

Don't worry, I'll complain to the writers. 'Reapers defeated in a week. Fixing Cerberus problems for the next decade.'

[PWENER]

This thread again? OMG!



Keeping it: Secures human dominace (more effective if you killed the council).



Destroying it: Pisses TIM off.

[mosor]

General User wrote...


Umm… I’m not sure I follow either of those analogies. A coroner performs an autopsy to ascertain the circumstances of a person’s death. The circumstances surrounding collector activities were not in doubt. As for terrorists with bioweapons, well, we already know what the Reapers are doing, and we’ve even got a pretty good idea how they intend to do it. What we don’t know is why, the question least likely to be answered on the CB.

You're assuming we know all the circumstances. We really don't. As for the reapers, clearly I must have missed something, because I have absolutely no clue on how the reapers intend to conquor the galaxy since their plan A failed. I've seen their barriers, their guns and their indoctrination devices. Do they have any other tools at their disposal? I don't know. Personally I'd like to find out before we meet them in combat.

What about the reapers themselves? Do they have any weaknesses to exploit? We can't expect every reaper to possess an avatar that Shepard can kill so joker can one shot a reaper.
 

The closest analogy I can think of for the CB is a bizarre mix of breeding ground and shipyard. “How?” is a good question to ask there. How do they make their barriers/weapons so strong? And can we replicate them? How can (if it can) indoctrination be prevented or reversed? These are vital questions that may be answered by an intact CB, but they are also questions that can be answered elsewhere, and they are far from the most important question about the Reapers.
 

Please tell me where else this information can be gained and is this "elsewhere" is as good a source for info as an intact collector base? As for the collector base. They were building an actual reaper. Probably the most important info you can get on the reapers is sitting right there in the collector base you destroyed. It's like the best place to learn about cars is studying an actual automobile factory.

Killing robo-zombo-Saren wasn’t the reason Sovereign was defeated, it was HOW Sovereign was defeated. The reason Sovereign was defeated was because Shepard never gave up searching for the truth behind Eden Prime and the Prothean Beacon and inspired others to do the same or similar. 

Yes but all that would mean squat if Sovereign didn't become zombo-saren that Shepard can actually fight hand to hand. I'm not holding up high hopes that Shepard will fight an army of zombo-avatars so Joker can destroy the whole fleet at once. Then again, the last matrix had neo fight an army of agent smiths, so who knows in science fantasy.

 

We shouldn’t be worried about Reaper tricks, they should be worried about ours. We’re young, smart, strong, physically and mentally flexible, while they’ve been stuck in the same pattern for umpteen million years. Truth be told I’m skeptical that the Reapers even have the capacity for innovative thought, at least in the same way we do. They certainly haven’t shown a heck of a lot so far.

I like your idealism and optimism, but if it wasn't for the protheans we'd be dead just like them. I personally don't underestimate my enemies, and would rather have as much intelligence as possible for I fight them.
 

[Arijharn]

General User wrote...

The closest analogy I can think of for the CB is a bizarre mix of breeding ground and shipyard. “How?” is a good question to ask there. How do they make their barriers/weapons so strong? And can we replicate them? How can (if it can) indoctrination be prevented or reversed? These are vital questions that may be answered by an intact CB, but they are also questions that can be answered elsewhere, and they are far from the most important question about the Reapers.
 

Really? Where? When?

When the Reapers are already here? That's too late isn't it? This is why I put forth my questions in the last thread to those purely against using the CB to validate their 'pie in the sky' claims. To be honest, while in my personal opinion you've done a much better in putting forth reasonable answers, this is still a nebulous claim. It's precisely because the CB is here now before the Reaper threat that is why it's essential to understand, if not for any new information about the Reapers themselves then for better technological understanding to defend against the Reapers.

Emotionalism and compassion are all well and good, but what good are they when you and everyone else you love is dead?

Where else are they going to be studied? Most likely from samples recovered from that devastated ward on the Citadel in the aftermath of Sovereign's destruction.. but if you have a sample size of 1, then I'd now have 2 sample sizes, which means that I would have a better understanding of any given situation than you, being less prone to Chaos within the data. And that's the best case scenario as well isn't it? What if that ward gives you no information at all? You've basically squandered your best chance. Of course, you'll be able to triumph given the fact that it's a game, but in real life? I don't have the same degree of faith.

[UNAVAILABLE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Good thinking. Mind if I try to take a bat to its knees?

I would be disappointed if you didn't.

Your basis lies that re-making the Mass Relay network would win the war, in and of itself (given your commitment of 100% of resources to the task). But you don't give a 'how' it does that.

Sorry if I was unclear. I don't think it would win the war for us, I think it would prevent us from immediately losing.

It doesn't stop the Reapers moving around: they can simply use your relays, even if you manage to find a way to destroy theirs, and they're already proving themselves capable of extreme FTL from Dark Space: why can't they simply fly across the galaxy?

Whether we make our own relays or modify the existing ones, we could potentially find a way to lock out the Reapers, but I would assume any locks we can come up with they can hack, so I wouldn't waste too much time trying to develop one. Again, I'm not talking about us gaining an advantage over the enemy, simply preventing their tremendous advantage over us.

No matter what you do for galactic infrastructure, you're still going to fight them. And for that you're going to need to overcome their superior shields, weapons, armor, and engines... when you've just neutered all development in order to focus on the relays.

I think I remember saying that it will be a gamble. My thought is that if the Reapers lock the mass relays, then superior shields, weapons, armor, all goes out the window. Preventing the lock on the mass relays at least gives us a fighting chance. The choice could well be between:

a) having well equipped, armed, high tech ships that are stuck in the factory systems where they were made, or where they were patrolling.

having all the current tech unmodified, but still have the means to move around the galaxy.

I think choice ( presents the best chance for victory.

Closing off the Mass Relays wasn't the goal of the Reapers, it was a means. The goal, as much as it was, was to take the Citadel to block organic movement. As long as you keep the Citadel, they can't do that. Even if they do, the Reaper IFF offers a means around it.

I agree it was not their goal, but it was one of the most effective pillars of their strategy. Undermining that, I think is key to survival. I would be hesitant to gamble on whether the Citadel is truly the Reapers only chance of locking the Mass Relays unless I knew exactly how they did it. I would guess that the Citadel broadcasts a signal to all the Relays, and the lock is engaged. IF true, then I would believe that the Reapers themselves could broadcast the same signal, and I would surmise they use the Citadel because it has a greater range. Even without the Citadel I would expect that the Reapers could disable the Relays, but they might actually have to go to each one in order to do so. The Reaper IFF *might* work, but it has two drawbacks. First, is availability. How many can Cerberus manufacture? These things have to be installed on every warship/scout ship/supply ship - how many people are going to install that "made by Cerberus" device on their ship? Secondly, is it conceivable that the Reapers can "change the password", so to speak? Such security measures are commonplace in our comparatively low tech world, surely the Reapers can figure that out.

Another issue is who is supposed to do this? There is no galactic unity against the Reapers right now. No major preparation. How do you hope to get a 100% of the galaxy's resources focused on this one task when maybe 90% don't even know or acknowledge the threat exists? 

My poor choice of words. I meant 100% of the resources at Shepard's (and presumably Cerberus') disposal. Obviously you won't get 100% of the galactic scientific community.

Without the galactic unity, many question come up. Who's paying for it? Who has the resources, the political will? The last Asari Matriarch who suggested building new Relays now serves drinks at a bar. Who is unifying the galaxy for this, and how is he or she enforcing it if/when various species have their own priorities and ideas of how to prepare?

Again I'm talking about 100% of the people who would otherwise have been studying the Collector Base.

A third dispute is that the Collector Base wouldn't help you in this. Clearly the Collectors demonstrated various knowledges of the relays only known to the Reapers. And Mass Relay technology is Reaper technology as well, which we are told the base holds tons of. If you were comitted to trying to crack the Relays, past even the Prothean's meager attempt, why wouldn't you look for that knowledge in the base as well?

I think this is the best counter-argument. I think it is a stretch to think that there would be a reason for the Mass Relay technology to be on board, but I can't prove that.

'Reapers defeated in a week. Fixing Cerberus problems for the next decade.'

LOL!

[UNAVAILABLE]

chris025657 wrote...
I don't see how the decision to keep or destroy the base is relevant to the Reaper's ability to control mass relays. This ability doesn't change whether the base is kept or destroyed. It would be a bit ridiculous if all the scientists in the galaxy could only study one thing at time. After all, Cerberus alone simultaneously brought Shepard back from the dead while rebuilding and improving the most advanced ship in the galaxy. 

I never suggested that they could only possibly study one thing at a time. I'm suggesting that this one thing is so much more important that any other line of study, that 100% of all resources at Shepard's and Cerberus's disposal should be dedicated to unlocking it. You focus the resources on one field of study to reduce research time. Once the study has been completed, there is still a lot of work left in implementing what was learned (i.e. disabling the Reapers locks). If the Reapers lock the Mass Relays - game over, they win. It doesn't help to have 50% of your tech experts working on how to double the power of your ships shields in that case.

Anyway, it's true that it isn't known what can be learned from the Collector base and partially completed Reaper. However, by destroying it you've assured that nothing will be learned. 

Again, one of the things we know to be true about the Reapers is that one of their main strategies for victory is locking the Mass Relays, and isolating each star cluster. If I'm going to focus my scientists on anything, it is going to be undermining that strategy instead of trying out random tech upgrades.

Modifié par UNAVAILABLE, 28 septembre 2010 - 01:32 .

[DPSSOC]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Anyway, it's true that it isn't known what can be learned from the Collector base and partially completed Reaper. However, by destroying it you've assured that nothing will be learned. 

Again, one of the things we know to be true about the Reapers is that one of their main strategies for victory is locking the Mass Relays, and isolating each star cluster. If I'm going to focus my scientists on anything, it is going to be undermining that strategy instead of trying out random tech upgrades.

We know how they do it though, by controlling the Citadel, our best bet would be to fortify our fleets and lock down (close) the Citadel to prevent that from happening.  I agree it's something we should try and find a work around but it's not something where we'd want to put all our eggs in one basket.  Overcoming the Relay locks is worthless unless we can effectively fight them, similarly developing tech to effectively fight them is worthless if the lockdown the relays.

[UNAVAILABLE]

DPSSOC wrote...
We know how they do it though, by controlling the Citadel, our best bet would be to fortify our fleets and lock down (close) the Citadel to prevent that from happening.  I agree it's something we should try and find a work around but it's not something where we'd want to put all our eggs in one basket.

Part of one of my above reply's addresses this some I'm just going to paste it in here.

I would be hesitant to gamble on whether the Citadel is truly the
Reapers only chance of locking the Mass Relays unless I knew exactly how
they did it. I would guess that the Citadel broadcasts a signal to all
the Relays, and the lock is engaged. IF true, then I would believe that
the Reapers themselves could broadcast the same signal, and I would
surmise they use the Citadel because it has a greater range. Even
without the Citadel I would expect that the Reapers could disable the
Relays, but they might actually have to go to each one in order to do
so.

Overcoming the Relay locks is worthless unless we can effectively fight them

I disagree. So long as the Relays remain accessible then fleets can be concentrated against threats, refugees evacuated, etc. Additionally, research on tech advances can still continue while the war is underway as science teams will still be able to travel to Research sites, developed tech can be moved to the factories, raw materials can still get to the factories. The drawback is that you have to live long enough to deploy those new and improved technologies.

But if the Reapers lock the Mass Relays, then your tech development becomes severely hampered if not nullified entirely. Even if you have a number of advanced anti-Reaper warships, they're cut off from supplies/reinforcements.

[Dean_the_Young]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Lots of reasonable stuff.

If I understand it right, it seems your biggest point was not to make it so the Reapers couldn't use the relays, but so that we can't be locked out?

Again, I think the IFF is the best bet. It certainly isn't impossible to replicate as the Illusive Man gets at least four of them in the period between the Derilect Reaper and the Suicide Mission, and that was measured in a matter of days. With weeks, months, years? Even Cerberus alone could pump out many, many things, and that's assuming no one else copied it from them.

Once the Collector Base was emptied and taken apart for research, disseminating the IFF's would be a rather costless benefit for galactic survival without weakening Cerberus. Short of untold plans to conquer the Citadel and lock the relays themselves, all that Cerberus would lose if it diseminated the IFF to everyone would be exclusive access behind the Omega 4 Relay: during the Reaper War, however, everyone could probably still use the relays.

Concerns about if other people would accept Cerberus's IFF? While I don't doubt they'd be concerned, I don't think they would go without come to that either. They could always try and do their own scrubbing, after all, and then copy it again. Or they could just copy Shepard's copy of it.

Trade would narrow, of course, but it could still exist: think of it as the Atlantic during WW2, when trade convoys narrowed but could get through.

One mitigation of your fear that the Reapers would change the passcode is that the story implications is that functionality lies within the relays themselves, not with the Reapers: all it takes for full relay access is the IFF presence, nothing more. The Derilect Reaper's IFF was still valid after all that time with the Omega 4 relay, and Vigil sort of implies that the Reapers were able to use the Relay network even when it was blocked to the Protheans.


Of course, I'll drop all questions about rallying the galaxy since that wasn't what you meant.

I think this is the best counter-argument. I think it is a stretch to think that there would be a reason for the Mass Relay technology to be on board, but I can't prove that.

I have a personal pet theory about how the Reapers might have some sort of built-in relays, but I think what is without a doubt on the Base (or was on the base, or would be on the base with the creation of the baby reaper) is knowledge of the full functions of using the Mass Relays. The Collector Ship had it, the Human Reaper would have had it. Even without knowing how to build a relay, knowing how to really use the relays (the hidden functions, mind you) would be a great boon to not being locked out of them. Dark switches and all that.

[chris025657]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

I disagree. So long as the Relays remain accessible then fleets can be concentrated against threats, refugees evacuated, etc. Additionally, research on tech advances can still continue while the war is underway as science teams will still be able to travel to Research sites, developed tech can be moved to the factories, raw materials can still get to the factories. The drawback is that you have to live long enough to deploy those new and improved technologies.

But if the Reapers lock the Mass Relays, then your tech development becomes severely hampered if not nullified entirely. Even if you have a number of advanced anti-Reaper warships, they're cut off from supplies/reinforcements.

Even if the relays are unlocked there is still the issue of a significant technological gap and the sheer numbers of the Reaper fleet. I doubt even the entire galaxy would be capable of defeating the Reaper fleet with current technologies. It took an entire Alliance fleet to destroy one Reaper and I doubt the rest of the galaxy will have much more success. 

[UNAVAILABLE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If I understand it right, it seems your biggest point was not to make it so the Reapers couldn't use the relays, but so that we can't be locked out?

Correct.

Again, I think the IFF is the best bet. It certainly isn't impossible to replicate as the Illusive Man gets at least four of them in the period between the Derilect Reaper and the Suicide Mission, and that was measured in a matter of days. With weeks, months, years? Even Cerberus alone could pump out many, many things, and that's assuming no one else copied it from them.

Assuming that Cerberus doesn't decide this is a great opportunity to be selective about whom they would give the tech to - most of the galaxy is currently unaware that they need this device. Cerberus would also have to engage in the most aggressive marketing campaign ever "buy now, or be eaten by robotic lobsters". My concern is that too many Captains, Admirals, Navies etc. would not acknowledge the need to have the IFF until they can't get through the Mass Relay. Unless Cerberus is able to distribute literally hundreds, if not thousands of these things to each star cluster and stick them in a warehouse until everyone wises up enough to use them, I can't see myself risking that much on the IFF.

Once the Collector Base was emptied and taken apart for research, disseminating the IFF's would be a rather costless benefit for galactic survival without weakening Cerberus.

If the IFF is going to be the key, I would hope Cerberus would start distributing it before disassembling/understanding the Collector Base.

One mitigation of your fear that the Reapers would change the passcode is that the story implications is that functionality lies within the relays themselves, not with the Reapers: all it takes for full relay access is the IFF presence, nothing more. The Derilect Reaper's IFF was still valid after all that time with the Omega 4 relay, and Vigil sort of implies that the Reapers were able to use the Relay network even when it was blocked to the Protheans.

I agree with what you're saying. I still don't think it precludes the ability of the Reapers to program the Relays to respond to a different signal than the one it does now. They would then of course, have to update their own IFFs to broadcast this new/different signal. In order to accomplish this though, I would assume that they either have to take the Citadel to do a "network update", or failing that update each Relay in turn.

I compare it to the difference is between making a copy of a key, and learning how to take the lock apart.

Argh, I have to go. To be continued...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

chris025657 wrote...

 It took an entire Alliance fleet to destroy one Reaper and I doubt the rest of the galaxy will have much more success. 

Correction:  The entire Alliance fleet could NOT destroy one Reaper.

The only reason Sovereign became vulnerable is because it embedded itself into Saren't body.  Had to do that in order to take control of the station, no one else was able to do it.  When Saren's body was destroyed, Sovereign died in him which allowed the ship to afterwards be vulnerable.