2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
So, actually, the base becomes more valuable if it's captured!

Of course it does. Every time the Base gets recaptured, Shepard can level up!

[Dean_the_Young]

And there he was. Shepard, chosen of the galaxy, vanguard of our salvation, standing on the hull of the Dark Citadel in the Void with nothing but his N7 Armor on. His assault rifle drifted away, long since depleted slaying the hundred of Reaper corposes that littered Dark Space. Harbringer and a hoard more of Reapers remained, ready to take back what was theirs, and all of the galaxy despaired.



But Shepard did not despair. Instead he contempuously removed his helmet, staring down the charging reapers. With a flicker of biotic power he threw aside his helmet, which flew at such force that another Reaper returned to nothingness. Cybernetics allowing him to remain uneffected in space, Shepard, our hero, the man who recaptured the Collector base a thousand times, lifted up his left hand in the shape of a gun. Blue biotic energy danced accross his fingertip.



'Bang', he said, and the Reapers exploded.



----





Like that, Zulu?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Guys, I should remind you that even assuming more collectors are out there... the Collector General is dead. The Collector General controls the Collector's actions. If more are out there, they have no leader and are just Reaper drones to begin with.


I thought it was more than a little silly that Shepard felt he could beat the Reapers without more intel when the Collectors killed him at the very beginning of the game...

And the Collectors are nothing to the Reapers.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 11 octobre 2010 - 07:56 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Like that, Zulu?

Yeah...

I think

I SUPPORT INFINITE BASE RECAPTURE GLITCH in ME3

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:07 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Like that, Zulu?

Yeah...

I think

I was thinking something more like "Booyaahhhh!!"

[RiouHotaru]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jabarai wrote...
I find Shepard's line rather well versed. The ultimate fear is the Reaper threat. Researching and deploying a base designed to foul and humiliate organic races would be compromising one's view on who is the enemy.

That's bullsh*t. Researching it does not compromise anything, and no one here suggests it shouid be used for its intended purpose. Besides, "foul and humiliate" are loaded and culture-dependent terms inappropriate to rational consideration of the situation. Likely the Reapers woudn't even understand what you're talking about, so how can you say the base is "designed" to be that. Ah, I forgot, you don't want rational....

I also find it a bit disappointing that people see such emotional approach as weak. But I'll leave it at that.

We're biologically wired to make fast judgments where possible because they are more economical in familiar situations. You can afford them because the consequences if you fail are usually limited. The Reaper threat is not such a situation. Here, to make a judgment based on emotions against strategic considerations is stupid. I'll consider any pragmatic reasoning for destroying the base, even though those I know of haven't convinced me so far. But yes, decisions made on an impulse, fueled by nothing more that a moral intuition that the base is "somehow evil", I dismiss those out of hand. 

Except that at the time you make this decision, you don't have the time to stand around and make strategic considerations.  A judgment call has to be made RIGHT THAT MOMENT.  Zulu put it earlier, there are two, rational, equally valid justifications for either decision:

A) "Blow up the base.  We can defeat the Reapers without resorting to using their tech like this.  Besides, I don't trust TIM."

"Keep the base.  It might provide useful technological advances to help us defeat the reapers.  I hope TIM doesn't blow it again."

Also, the line Shepard delivers isn't that bad.  The base's sole purpose is to turn sentient beings into goo and process them to form the material for construction of a Reaper.  Regardless of the Reaper's intentions, any sentient race would probably find the idea of what the base does as "fouling and humiliating".  Possibly horrific and disgusting too.  The Reaper's intentions are irrelevant to this discussion.

TIM wanting to use the base is him asking that Paragon Shepard compromise on their morals and standards and let fear of the Reapers reduce him or her to the level of using their tech, and considering the level of atrocity being committed here, I'd say the line fits perfectly.

Also, any argument about the "Reaper tech" that Shepard already utilizes doesn't work because all that tech was reserve-engineered.  None of it was lifted straight from a Reaper and put right to use.



Edit: I made a mistake, the IFF was lifted straight from a Reaper and used.  But then again, look how well, or rather unwell, that went.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:28 .

[Zulu_DFA]

RiouHotaru wrote...

 judgment call has to be made RIGHT THAT MOMENT. 

Technically, yes. But I said that to Shepard his Odissey #2 doesn't take 40 hours. It takes at least a hundred long lonely nights in his cabin when he has nothing to do but to dream of the final mission to come, and muse over the fates of the Galaxy. So he must have formed some "billet" judgemnets for possible future situations beforehand. So you can take some time to form your opinion in every given situation without breach of role-playing.

RiouHotaru wrote...
Zulu put it earlier, there are two, rational, equally valid justifications for either decision:

A) "Blow up the base.  We can defeat the Reapers without resorting to using their tech like this.  Besides, I don't trust TIM."

"Keep the base.  It might provide useful technological advances to help us defeat the reapers.  I hope TIM doesn't blow it again."

I didn't put it that way. Never have I said that we can defeat the Reapers without resorting to the Base's spoils. It must seem unlikely that we can do that even with the Base, which might significantly improve our chances.

So in (A) only "I don't trust TIM" remains. And it ain't rational by a long shot. I quote myself here (not for the 100% seriousness of the post, which might be lacking, - or it might not, - but for I like the picture, lol!) -

Zulu_DFA wrote...






I claim, that the vast majority of the people who destroy the Base, do so ultimately and solely due to having freudian insecurities about TIM! Guys know he is better, and gals just seek more attention!

RiouHotaru wrote...
Also, the line Shepard delivers isn't that bad. 

A couple of pages back there was an assertment (by me and other posters) that the line Shepard the Destroyer delivers is inherently nonsensical.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 octobre 2010 - 08:45 .

[smudboy]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Also, the line Shepard delivers isn't that bad.

On a scale from ME1 to ME2, it's an ME2.

The base's sole purpose is to turn sentient beings into goo and process them to form the material for construction of a Reaper.  Regardless of the Reaper's intentions, any sentient race would probably find the idea of what the base does as "fouling and humiliating".  Possibly horrific and disgusting too.  The Reaper's intentions are irrelevant to this discussion.

This is the number 5.  This is also irrelevant to this discussion.

TIM wanting to use the base is him asking that Paragon Shepard compromise on their morals and standards and let fear of the Reapers reduce him or her to the level of using their tech, and considering the level of atrocity being committed here, I'd say the line fits perfectly.

Um, no.  TIM just wants to study the base.  Exactly what aspect of Shepard's fear is compromising Shepard?  What context?  How is this revealed in the narrative?  You see with a line this bad, to say, one emotion (which I'm guessing means the fear of the Reapers) which somehow alters "who" you are.

Now who is Shepard?  A guy with a gun?  A soldier who doesn't like Collector Bases?  What is being compromised here?

Shepard's has some emotion (fear) which is somehow (fearful) about something (?), which compromises "who they are."  What does that even mean?

Also, any argument about the "Reaper tech" that Shepard already utilizes doesn't work because all that tech was reserve-engineered.  None of it was lifted straight from a Reaper and put right to use.

So?  What do you think they'll do with the base?

Modifié par smudboy, 11 octobre 2010 - 09:14 .

[Iakus]

smudboy wrote...

Um, no.  TIM just wants to study the base.  Exactly what aspect of Shepard's fear is compromising Shepard?  What context?  How is this revealed in the narrative?  You see with a line this bad, to say, one emotion (which I'm guessing means the fear of the Reapers) which somehow alters "who" you are.

TIM says he "just" wants to study the base.  But Cerberus' track record in ME 1 and ME 2 says he just has to touch the fire.  PLus TIM himself has demonstrated that he can conceal unpleasant truths if needed.

I agree the line is bad.  Shepard should simply say something more along the lines of "I've seen enough results of your experiments to know I  can't trust technology this dangerous in your hands" 

[HWM Sarge]

Let's just look at what interaction with the Reapers and their technology has done to people:



ME1:

-Saren turns on the Council and tries to destroy the Citadel and allow the Reapers to destroy us all.

-Some of th Geth are tricked into going to war to help destroy all of us for Reaper tech.



ME2:

-Protheans turned into Reapers

-Scientists on a 15 million year-old derelict Reaper are indoctrinated and turned into husks

-Reaper IFF allows the collectors to locate the Normandy and kidnap everyone but Joker.



The Reapers know their own tech. Using it will most likely backfire on us. Rather, Shepard can build his forces through the first two games. We improve humanity's relations with the Council races. We get Wrex to unify the Krogan. We get the rachni on our side. We get a loyal crew of badasses.



And despite the issues surrounding TIM and Cerberus, do you really want to put that much power in the hands of one man who's obviously corrupt. He was quick to toss Shepard to the wolves throughout ME2 to get the information he needed.

[Zulu_DFA]

Truth be told, the renegade line for keeping the Base is not much better.

"With threat this big rules go out of the window"

What "rules"? There is only one rule - the rule of Reapers, and yes, it'd better go out of the window.

Oddly, the paragon line would suit keeping of the Base a lot more: "I'll let no fear [of this place] compromise who I am [savior of the Galaxy]!"

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 octobre 2010 - 10:30 .

[Zulu_DFA]

H3WM Sarge wrote...

Let's just look...

Look deeper.

But first, get you facts straight.

[NYG1991]

TIM can still study the base if we destroy it. Actually shep did him a favor by making it into easy to carry pieces.

[GGRush]

H3WM Sarge wrote...

Let's just look at what interaction with the Reapers and their technology has done to people:

ME1:
-Saren turns on the Council and tries to destroy the Citadel and allow the Reapers to destroy us all.
-Some of th Geth are tricked into going to war to help destroy all of us for Reaper tech.

ME2:
-Protheans turned into Reapers
-Scientists on a 15 million year-old derelict Reaper are indoctrinated and turned into husks
-Reaper IFF allows the collectors to locate the Normandy and kidnap everyone but Joker.

The Reapers know their own tech. Using it will most likely backfire on us. Rather, Shepard can build his forces through the first two games. We improve humanity's relations with the Council races. We get Wrex to unify the Krogan. We get the rachni on our side. We get a loyal crew of badasses.

And despite the issues surrounding TIM and Cerberus, do you really want to put that much power in the hands of one man who's obviously corrupt. He was quick to toss Shepard to the wolves throughout ME2 to get the information he needed.

ME2:
Protheans did NOT turn into reapers, or collectors by using reaper tech.
and for the other two facts of yours, they are both neccessary for obliterating the collectors.
Are you saying, because this thing is so dangerous, we should not study it?
Then there is no mission success in the end.

The fact is that we HAVE to study reaper tech. We need information, whether you want to use it your own, or counter it.

[belwin]

GGRush wrote...

H3WM Sarge wrote...

Let's just look at what interaction with the Reapers and their technology has done to people:

ME1:
-Saren turns on the Council and tries to destroy the Citadel and allow the Reapers to destroy us all.
-Some of th Geth are tricked into going to war to help destroy all of us for Reaper tech.

ME2:
-Protheans turned into Reapers
-Scientists on a 15 million year-old derelict Reaper are indoctrinated and turned into husks
-Reaper IFF allows the collectors to locate the Normandy and kidnap everyone but Joker.

The Reapers know their own tech. Using it will most likely backfire on us. Rather, Shepard can build his forces through the first two games. We improve humanity's relations with the Council races. We get Wrex to unify the Krogan. We get the rachni on our side. We get a loyal crew of badasses.

And despite the issues surrounding TIM and Cerberus, do you really want to put that much power in the hands of one man who's obviously corrupt. He was quick to toss Shepard to the wolves throughout ME2 to get the information he needed.

ME2:
Protheans did NOT turn into reapers, or collectors by using reaper tech.
and for the other two facts of yours, they are both neccessary for obliterating the collectors.
Are you saying, because this thing is so dangerous, we should not study it?
Then there is no mission success in the end.

The fact is that we HAVE to study reaper tech. We need information, whether you want to use it your own, or counter it.

while studying it might prove fruitful,
I believe Samara was right when she said:

You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.

let's all listen to the justicar.

also, TIM is just too sketchy, after the reapers got defeated IF they did he would just impose his newfound power on everyone.

Modifié par belwin, 11 octobre 2010 - 11:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

I was about to ask if there was anything ironic about Samara's loyalty mission being a task to attract, entice, and seduce an intelligent young (relatively) soul with the secret intent to kill them in the bedroom in order to relieve an undeniable, borderline obsessive psychological need by a woman with more deaths on her hand than most soldiers.



And then I decided not to.

[RiouHotaru]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I was about to ask if there was anything ironic about Samara's loyalty mission being a task to attract, entice, and seduce an intelligent young (relatively) soul with the secret intent to kill them in the bedroom in order to relieve an undeniable, borderline obsessive psychological need by a woman with more deaths on her hand than most soldiers.

And then I decided not to.

Because then you realized said intelligent soul was a sociopathic serial killer who quite literally blew her victim's minds until they were nothing but dead shells like a crack addict snorts a line.  Yeah, I got that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hey, don't be so hard on Samara. Sometimes she crushes their throats with high heels!



Not all analogies are exact, but they do have amusing similarities. Samara and Morinth are characters with a strong duality to them: yin and yang, so to speak, but they share many more characteristics than either likes to admit. I don't see how anyone can honestly reject that the two are made to contrast and compliment eachother.

[RiouHotaru]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hey, don't be so hard on Samara. Sometimes she crushes their throats with high heels!

Not all analogies are exact, but they do have amusing similarities. Samara and Morinth are characters with a strong duality to them: yin and yang, so to speak, but they share many more characteristics than either likes to admit. I don't see how anyone can honestly reject that the two are made to contrast and compliment eachother.

Oh definitely, I agree.  I just can't in good conscience agree with Mornith.  But I can respect that she made a choice, even if was a selfish and silly one.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zulu brought up an interesting point in the new Irony Thread about the mix between the two's Loyalty Powers: Samara, the Justicar who enforces her Code on everyone else, has the Loyalty Power of Reave, which is largely vampiric in nature (drain enemies for your own gain), whereas Morinth the Ardat Yakshi, the Asari Vampire, has dominate, a power about enforcing your will on others.



But Morinth and Samara are better left for another topic.

[Inverness Moon]

belwin wrote...

while studying it might prove fruitful,
I believe Samara was right when she said:

You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.

let's all listen to the justicar.

also, TIM is just too sketchy, after the reapers got defeated IF they did he would just impose his newfound power on everyone.

Firstly, Samara's statement is not applicable to this discussion. Studying the collector base does not mean we need to adopt their methods (turn people into goo).

Secondly, the reapers are too great a threat for you to realistically be worrying about what TIM might do afterwards. There is a 99% chance that there wont be an afterwards. If you're going to possibly lower our chances against the reapers in order to possibly put TIM at a disadvantage then you're metagaming because Shepard would have to have some sort of psychotic fixation on TIM for him to do that.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

belwin wrote...

while studying it might prove fruitful,
I believe Samara was right when she said:

You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.

let's all listen to the justicar.

That doesn't make any sense though.  No one in their right mind would adopt the Reaper's "methods".  We won't be exterminating all life in the galaxy.  But no one would get anywhere if they weren't humble enough to incorporate innovations as they happen.  Doesn't matter who came up with it... if it's an efficiently good idea, it's an efficiently good idea. 

Plus technologically it's far too late to take that stance.  The Relays themselves are Reaper technologies.  Way too late for that to make any sense.



IF REAPER TECHNOLOGY WASN'T STUDIED... WE WOULDN'T HAVE EVEN BEATEN THE COLLECTORS.  BOTH EDI AND THE IFF WERE CRUCIAL TO THAT MISSION'S SUCCESS.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:19 .

[Jagri]

Did we really need EDI and or the IFF to defeat the Collecters? Thinking outside the box the Collecters used a single Mass Relay to travel back and forth from there base. Cerberus having discovered that Relay could have ended the Collecter threat simply by placing ships outside it and or laying a field of mines down to cripple or destroy the crusier. If that is not possiable destroy the Mass Relay and seal them away perimentally.



To those who would disagree that the base was vital then the ambush idea would still work but simply focus on disabling the cruiser rather then destroying it. Problem solved!



Well thats not taking in account Project Overlord... Dang the Galaxy would still be screwed >.<

[Dean_the_Young]

Mines really don't work in space. Space is really, really big,and Omega's already big enough that they'd not want mines laid in their neighborhood either. Even regular relay drift can be tens of thousands of kilometers.



A blockade doesn't necessarily work for the relay because of superior Collector navigation technology. On their way out from behind the realy, they can 'drift' wherever they want to.more or less, and immediately go FTL to get out of the area. On their way in, they can use their precise FTL travel to arrive right on the relay, and be gone through before you can stop them.

[Jagri]

Yeah my whole idea doesn't work if Project Overlord isn't stopped. Shepard is vital to the universes survival at this point. But like it was writen if those two methods didn't work then simply destroy the Relay.

Modifié par Jagri, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:14 .