2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Overlord needed anyone with means to drop a rock from orbit. That's about it: once the satellite/transmitter was destroyed, the rest was cleanup. Shepard was ideal for settling it, but hardly necessary as we understand it.



That said, Overlord has more potential than any project we've seen by anyone to date.

[Jagri]

From what I remember Shepard destroyed the transmitter moments away from the VI virus being sent out throught out the galaxy. If anyone was in the position to stop Project Overlord they wouldn't have been there in time.

Game over man game over....

Modifié par Jagri, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:23 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Jagri wrote...

Did we really need EDI and or the IFF to defeat the Collecters? Thinking outside the box the Collecters used a single Mass Relay to travel back and forth from there base. Cerberus having discovered that Relay could have ended the Collecter threat simply by placing ships outside it and or laying a field of mines down to cripple or destroy the crusier. If that is not possiable destroy the Mass Relay and seal them away perimentally.

To those who would disagree that the base was vital then the ambush idea would still work but simply focus on disabling the cruiser rather then destroying it. Problem solved!

Well thats not taking in account Project Overlord... Dang the Galaxy would still be screwed >.<

We did because destroying their ships would still not allow us to attack their homeworld.  We could kill minions all day long (depending) or the Collectors could realize this and attack large settlements to create an opening.  They could also feasably contact the base regarding the problem and devise a weapon to deal with it.

We needed to go in and hit them where they lived.

Jagri wrote...

From what I remember Shepard destroyed the transmitter moments away from the VI virus being sent out throught out the galaxy. If anyone was in the position to stop Project Overlord they wouldn't have been there in time.

Game over man game over....

I still thought Grayson was the huge potentially game-over threat.  I was under the impression that the Reapers were going to take over one of the strong biotics at the facility he was stopped in.  If he began "reproducing" into powerful beings, that could've been a whirlwind of disaster, especially considering how much damage just one of them could do.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 octobre 2010 - 04:27 .

[Jagri]

Hold on moment you ignored the second part of my statement. If capturing the base as vital then disabling the Collecters Cruiser would be the objective so using that they could strike at the Base. Like a Trogan Horse for example and the third part was simply to destroy the Relay. Shutting down the Relay in the first game did stop the Reaper fleet what makes you think the Collecters can get around that problem if there masters could not?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Jagri wrote...

Hold on moment you ignored the second part of my statement. If capturing the base as vital then disabling the Collecters Cruiser would be the objective so using that they could strike at the Base. Like a Trogan Horse for example and the third part was simply to destroy the Relay. Shutting down the Relay in the first game did stop the Reaper fleet what makes you think the Collecters can get around that problem if there masters could not?

Shutting down the Relay would absolutely mean taking the long way home, but it doesn't stop the threat, just makes it slower and now impossible to find except for a chance encounter and following of a Collector Vessel.  No one knows where the Omega 4 Relay leads and only a few ships can navigate to it without getting destroyed by the black hole.

Regarding the cruiser trojan horse, I understand the idea, but no one has ever piloted a collector ship before, there's no way of telling how it works and who's controlling it.  Even more is the question of who would pilot it?  The team only has 1 pilot, which is Joker.  There's also seeker swarms to worry about inside the ship and all kinds of problems that are simply unknown and unsafe regarding it.

It was the safer option to take a known, but powerful ship through the relay and do damage that way.

[Jagri]

Omega 4 Relay ends up in the center of the galaxy a region extremely unstable. The Collecters Base built within a safe pocket it would seem. If the Relay was destroyed or disabled the Collecters would be isolated in that portion of space. Normal travel would take roughly hundreds of years and I am being generious here to go from one galaxy to the next and thats if they have a method for faster then light travel. To top it off the region is extremely hostile and normal travel through it would likely be impossiable.



Collecters Cruiser interior defenses seem relatively weak. When lured to a ambush a small three man team was able to escape unharmed. The Collecters cruise could be destroyed by a Frigate without prototype weapons (of course one man on your crew dies). Now coming to understand Collecter technology would be vastly diffirent then say trying to understand the lay out and function of a Reaper. The Collecters are humaniod so looking for consoles or terminals to match their height and built would be the logic start... So on and so forth.



But I got to conclude in the end only Shepard can save the galaxy at this point. Like someone pointed out before Cerberus just ends up being the red shirts.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Jagri wrote...

Omega 4 Relay ends up in the center of the galaxy a region extremely unstable. The Collecters Base built within a safe pocket it would seem. If the Relay was destroyed or disabled the Collecters would be isolated in that portion of space. Normal travel would take roughly hundreds of years and I am being generious here to go from one galaxy to the next and thats if they have a method for faster then light travel. To top it off the region is extremely hostile and normal travel through it would likely be impossiable.

Collecters Cruiser interior defenses seem relatively weak. When lured to a ambush a small three man team was able to escape unharmed. The Collecters cruise could be destroyed by a Frigate without prototype weapons (of course one man on your crew dies). Now coming to understand Collecter technology would be vastly diffirent then say trying to understand the lay out and function of a Reaper. The Collecters are humaniod so looking for consoles or terminals to match their height and built would be the logic start... So on and so forth.

But I got to conclude in the end only Shepard can save the galaxy at this point. Like someone pointed out before Cerberus just ends up being the red shirts.

I doubt it would take hundreds of years, as they can still make slipspace jumps.  Also, as the Reapers made the relays, they could very well construct a new one near the collector base now that the threat of incoming ships is no more. 

Collecter Cruiser interior defenses were strong, we were just stronger.  Mordin's vaccine allowed us to get through smaller groups without the swarms paralyzing us while a biotic field stopped the larger swarms.

However, getting the ship is only half the battle, as the collectors are controlled by the Collector General, there's no telling what would happen when approaching the base.  While the General is alive, he'd know the ship had been captured and consequently, so would Harbinger, they'd provide defensive measures accordingly.  You wouldn't sneak through undetected then.  Could very possibly be fired upon just trying to exit the ship.

Also, while Shepard himself is the only hope for the galaxy, Shepard would also still be dead if it weren't for Cerberus.  The council or alliance probably wouldn't bring him back even if they did manage to get his body.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 octobre 2010 - 05:34 .

[Phaedon]

Dean_The_Young wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
OK, let's see. You suggest that there is a small chance that the base will help, and you say that this can be done by the following ways:
1) Material for shielding - Which btw, was not used on the Reaper or the base.

They were going to build a reaper without shields.

Ahuh.

Shields=/=Building Material
http://masseffect.wi...22Shields.22.29

3) Materials/Methods used for indoctrination- There are none. It's telepathy.

It's repeatedly established as a machine-replicable field effect. It has a non-mind source.

I don't know how you define 'telepathy', but I define it as the remote (τηλε) transfer of orders and thoughts. I didn't say that it had a mind source. The source are the Reapers, not a local device.

]From an engineering perspective, blue prints are necessary in and of themselves: studying the existing designs can recreate them, in the same sense that with a corpse you can get a new drawing of a skeleton.

It's not the blueprints themselves that are important: it's the items that are and have been built by those blueprints, the items in the base.

Blueprints are a) a human concept, not the perfect way to transfer data. The perfect way to transfer data is 'assuming direct control'.

Modifié par Phaedon, 12 octobre 2010 - 06:45 .

[tallinn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

tallinn wrote...

With english not being my mother-tongue I do not understand the "no border between "sentience" and "non-sentience"". The border is clear and easy to realize.

It means that, as soon as you say human being are primarily driven by emotions, you may as well say that human beings are living automatons, in no quality distinct from other such things as animals.

Not to go off-topic, I'll remind you that all this "emotions" thing was brought up as a "valid argument" to advocate the destruction of the C-Base. It is not such.

Actually I jumped on the topic when the question was raised why should mankind withstand the Reapers at all. And my point is that there is no rational argument for mankind to do it. It is just their wish. Surely a legitimate one. But it is just us wanting it that way.

It is off-topic, but I find it more interesting than the base discussion.  You say a quality of humans is needed to raise them amongst the animals. You say if one treats humans as emotion-driven like any other life form and then adds the ability to rationalize as the special quality one ends up with something that does not only distinguish humans from other life forms but distinguish different human beings from each other, leading to all kind of inhuman concepts.

I think you are looking at the wrong place for the quality that makes mankind distinguishable from other life forms tom us when it comes down how to deal with us and "them".

The special quality that we have is: we are humans. We all share the same view to each other and the world, the human view. We have the human standpoint. Other life forms have a different view on the world, on themselves, on us. They have a different standpoint. They can't share our view. So this view distinguish us from "them". On the other hand as human beings we all share the same view on the world and us.  We share the same basic needs and fears giving us the same basic wishes to get our needs fulfilled and our fears avoided. So it does not distinguish us among each other. It makes us the same all over the world.

Rationalism on the other hand is nothing special to mankind. Mature chimps are as rational as a three-year-old human child. We are just better at it then any other life form we are aware of.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

[quote]3) Materials/Methods used for indoctrination- There are none. It's telepathy.[/quote]
It's repeatedly established as a machine-replicable field effect. It has a non-mind source.[/quote]
I don't know how you define 'telepathy', but I define it as the remote (τηλε) transfer of orders and thoughts. I didn't say that it had a mind source. The source are the Reapers, not a local device.[/quote]Except, of course, the multiple times it is not from a Reaper, and is from a local source, usually in the same vicinity as Dragon's Teeth.
[quote]
[quote]]From an engineering perspective, blue prints are necessary in and of themselves: studying the existing designs can recreate them, in the same sense that with a corpse you can get a new drawing of a skeleton.

It's not the blueprints themselves that are important: it's the items that are and have been built by those blueprints, the items in the base.[/quote]
Blueprints are a) a human concept, not the perfect way to transfer data. The perfect way to transfer data is 'assuming direct control'.

[/quote]Except it isn't, or else the Collectors wouldn't bother with computer systems to store and transfer data for their own use... which they do quite a number of times. If it was perfect, they wouldn't need to store data on the Collector side of the universe.

Blueprints aren't an innate human concept. Blueprints are an application of modeling, and that's hardly human. The advantages of modeling (an ability to reproduce, to more easily alter, to leave as instructions to those less capable ie drones/indoctrinated servants/trade tech to pirates and slavers) is universal.

[Zulu_DFA]

tallinn wrote...

The special quality that we have is: we are humans.

It's a tautology. We are humans because we are humans. That's saying nothing.

tallinn wrote...
We all share the same view to each other and the world, the human view. We have the human standpoint. Other life forms have a different view on the world, on themselves, on us. They have a different standpoint. They can't share our view. So this view distinguish us from "them". On the other hand as human beings we all share the same view on the world and us.

No we don't. The Nаzi did not have the same views and they've got a few followers even now, despite the fact they lost the war. Islamic suicide bombers have pretty different view of the world. Tibetan monks have different view of the world. The Italians have not the same view of the world as the Norwegians. Not all of your friends share the same view of the world as you.

tallinn wrote...
We share the same basic needs and fears giving us the same basic wishes to get our needs fulfilled and our fears avoided. So it does not distinguish us among each other. It makes us the same all over the world.

As far as the basic needs and wishes go, pretty much all mammals have them the same.

tallinn wrote...
Rationalism on the other hand is nothing special to mankind. Mature chimps are as rational as a three-year-old human child. We are just better at it then any other life form we are aware of.

Right. That's why calling a tough but not so brigh bloke "ape" can come sometimes as a compliment. And sometimes as a justification to put this bloke to work without pay.


The ancients (who were smarter than us, and that's a scientific fact) rather saw the potential for rational thinking, than the actual exercising of it, as a distinguishing quality of the human. And at the same time, although they didn't read Darwin, they had a very clear understanding that with all the potential for rational thinking, the human is just another animal, and there is no more divinity inside, than in an average rock. The trick is that "the potential" is an abstract enough definition which can be applied differently in different situtions, according to the needs of the moment. So it's kind of universal, unlike any specific quality drawn arbitrarily...

But let's not get off-topic.

tallinn wrote...

Actually I jumped on the topic when the question was raised why should mankind withstand the Reapers at all. And my point is that there is no rational argument for mankind to do it. It is just their wish. Surely a legitimate one. But it is just us wanting it that way.

Of course, from the fully objective point of view, there is no difference who rules the Galaxy, us or the Reapers. But the Reapers don't need to wish to do what they do. And neither do we need to wish to stop them. It's just our duty, so to say. Like that of a soldier (which Commander Shepard is anyway). If anything, as I've already said earlier in this tread, we are just another test for the Reapers, and as such we have to do all in our capacity to make them fail. Does this sound like a wish? No, more like a rational abstract thinking to me. Can we enjoy it and go all freaky and make the Reapers suffer, to please our animal desires in the process? If that only helps the task, why the hell not?

That's how I play my Shepard anyway. He does nothing "noble". He does not even "save lives". Quite the contrary, he is a life-taker and a heart-breaker. And a savior of the Galaxy. During his off-hours he is also quite a nice guy, but he's been getting little off-time lately.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 octobre 2010 - 02:02 .

[smudboy]

tallinn wrote...

Actually I jumped on the topic when the question was raised why should mankind withstand the Reapers at all. And my point is that there is no rational argument for mankind to do it. It is just their wish. Surely a legitimate one. But it is just us wanting it that way.

Because of your odd definition of emotion.

I can take a status of Virtue (courage), or of hedonism: that it is good to live, and good to save others, thus pleasurable.

Here's another: emotion is based on thought.  Thoughts are not based on wishes.  I do not wish to think, I simply do.  Since I do not appreciate others forcibly taking my thoughts (via life) from me, I would expect to combat such forces.  Not because I wish it.  I could very much wish to die, but haven't done so, yet am compelled by pleasure or courage of reality .

All of the above is sophistry and baseless.  By all means, start up a "My Philosophy Degree is useful" thread.

Rationalism on the other hand is nothing special to mankind. Mature chimps are as rational as a three-year-old human child. We are just better at it then any other life form we are aware of.

Oh, so we're nothing special; we're just better at it.  Okay.  I'll wrap that one around the Collector Base a few spins next time I want to be courageous or pleasurable toward the galaxy.

[Phaedon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
I don't know how you define 'telepathy', but I define it as the remote (τηλε) transfer of orders and thoughts. I didn't say that it had a mind source. The source are the Reapers, not a local device.

Except, of course, the multiple times it is not from a Reaper, and is from a local source, usually in the same vicinity as Dragon's Teeth.

I don't remember any indoctrination devices, but I could be wrong. Would you be kind enough to point one to me ?

Except it isn't, or else the Collectors wouldn't bother with computer systems to store and transfer data for their own use... which they do quite a number of times. If it was perfect, they wouldn't need to store data on the Collector side of the universe.

Blueprints aren't an innate human concept. Blueprints are an application of modeling, and that's hardly human. The advantages of modeling (an ability to reproduce, to more easily alter, to leave as instructions to those less capable ie drones/indoctrinated servants/trade tech to pirates and slavers) is universal.

1) The only collector computer systems that I have seen moved around the huge hexagon floors.
2) Actually, even if we assume that modelling is a concept that Reapers considered valuable enough to share with the Collectors, it's wrong to say that blueprints is the only application of modelling possible. In fact, if you have worked with blueprints, you'd find the whole concept flawed. Even though they help, both the information that they provide is incomplete, and they don't allow you to replicate exactly a certain model/concept.

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
I don't know how you define 'telepathy', but I define it as the remote (τηλε) transfer of orders and thoughts. I didn't say that it had a mind source. The source are the Reapers, not a local device.

Except, of course, the multiple times it is not from a Reaper, and is from a local source, usually in the same vicinity as Dragon's Teeth.

I don't remember any indoctrination devices, but I could be wrong. Would you be kind enough to point one to me ?

Pretty much every other side mission with husks. Usually followed the familiar pattern of 'dig team goes missing, Shepard shows up, finds recording of how they dug up mysterious artificat, finds lots of Dragon's Teeth and husks.'

1) The only collector computer systems that I have seen moved around the huge hexagon floors.

And the computer you scan about the Protehan data. And the main computer at the center of the trap itself, which linked to the Collector Ship's main network. And Harbringer's consol.

And, you know, the other parts of the networks EDI hacks on multiple occasions.

EDI can't hack and discover the hidden data if there isn't the computers (some of which we see) to maintain a network.

2) Actually, even if we assume that modelling is a concept that Reapers considered valuable enough to share with the Collectors, it's wrong to say that blueprints is the only application of modelling possible. In fact, if you have worked with blueprints, you'd find the whole concept flawed. Even though they help, both the information that they provide is incomplete, and they don't allow you to replicate exactly a certain model/concept.

I... never said that blueprints are the only application of modelling. I said they are an application of modelling that remains useful to the Collectors.

And you're repeating my exact same argument about how blueprints aren't the end-all. Don't say I'm arguing a position I'm not and then use my own counterargument on the subject.

[Ieldra]

Do you notice, tallinn, Phaedon, that your arguments are completely meaningless in the bigger scheme of things? You've made a lot of baseless claims about the nature of being human and the capabilities of the Reapers and suchlike, but even should I give you the benefit of the doubt the truth of your assertions remains as unknown as the answer to the question: do we need the Collector base to win against the Reapers. So everything is not known, really, but I ask you again: would you stake the life of the galaxy on a statement of faith?

That's what idealism comes down to: to bet on an outcome based on faith, not facts. It works often enough, else it wouldn't exist, so I don't say it's not useful, not an advantage to have. Only if the life of everything hangs in the balance, I count it unwise to depend on it.

In short: if my most Paragon Shepard were to make not more than one Renegade decision in both games, this would be it: to keep the Collector base.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 octobre 2010 - 08:42 .

[Barquiel]

Ieldra2 wrote...

So everything is not known, really, but I ask you again: would you stake the life of the galaxy on a statement of faith?

 

Yes, and so did you.

You have faith that TIM has the wisdom to utilize the base (if I may quote Samara here). Obviously, our squadmates don't share your optimism.

[Phaedon]

Pretty much every other side mission with husks. Usually followed the familiar pattern of 'dig team goes missing, Shepard shows up, finds recording of how they dug up mysterious artificat, finds lots of Dragon's Teeth and husks.'

The Prothean Beacons simply hold information, they have nonthing to do with indoctrination. The Dragon Teeth, is a geth device based on Reaper tech, that does not indoctrinate. It just implants it's victims with hardware and drains resources.

And the computer you scan about the Protehan data. And the main computer at the center of the trap itself, which linked to the Collector Ship's main network. And Harbringer's consol.



And, you know, the other parts of the networks EDI hacks on multiple occasions.



EDI can't hack and discover the hidden data if there isn't the computers (some of which we see) to maintain a network.

Actually, the whole network that Harbinger commands from the master console is the hexagon floors. He strategically places them in order to deploy his troops.

I... never said that blueprints are the only application of modelling. I said they are an application of modelling that remains useful to the Collectors.



And you're repeating my exact same argument about how blueprints aren't the end-all. Don't say I'm arguing a position I'm not and then use my own counterargument on the subject.

OK so then, why would the Reapers prefer blueprints over 'telepathy' ? I don't think that Collectors are intelligent enough to act on their own anyway. They would act by instict, like any other animal out there.

Do you notice, tallinn, Phaedon, that your arguments are completely meaningless in the bigger scheme of things? You've made a lot of baseless claims about the nature of being human and the capabilities of the Reapers and suchlike, but even should I give you the benefit of the doubt the truth of your assertions remains as unknown as the answer to the question: do we need the Collector base to win against the Reapers. So everything is not known, really, but I ask you again: would you stake the life of the galaxy on a statement of faith?



That's what idealism comes down to: to bet on an outcome based on faith, not facts. It works often enough, else it wouldn't exist, so I don't say it's not useful, not an advantage to have. Only if the life of everything hangs in the balance, I count it unwise to depend on it.



In short: if my most Paragon Shepard were to make not more than one Renegade decision in both games, this would be it: to keep the Collector base.

I bolded two things.

1) Aka the bigger picture ? I thought that you argued that we should forget about the bigger picture (TIM using the base) and focus on the immediate danger ?

2) I don't base my arguments on any statements of faith. I am still waiting to see how the base is going to be useful/vital other than some minor advance in tech. As you said, the choice should come down to logic. OK then, in what rational way could the base defeat the Reapers ? I understand what you say, that it's a risk that you are not willing to take, but that's just a statement of faith, isn't it ?



btw, I'd rather you didn't say that my arguments are baseless when I have wasted 10 pages trying to prove an obvious point without using info from books, because it's somehow not cannon. Thanks in advance.

[mosor]

Barquiel wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

So everything is not known, really, but I ask you again: would you stake the life of the galaxy on a statement of faith?

 

Yes, and so did you.

You have faith that TIM has the wisdom to utilize the base (if I may quote Samara here). Obviously, our squadmates don't share your optimism.

If TIM doesn't use the base, bioware will have a hard time figuring out ways Cerberus experiments can go wrong. That means less missions that involve me being TIM's cleaning man and therefore less experience. Doncha know you you gotta be level 50  to have any hope of going toe to toe with an actual reaper? Get with the program laddie.

Modifié par mosor, 12 octobre 2010 - 09:52 .

[Mecha Tengu]

lesser of the 2 evils, I would give cerberus the base and use collector technology to fight the reapers, while keeping close contact with cerberus. When the day finally comes, set off explosives, initiate mass defection and destroy cerberus from within.



Kind of like America funding the Taliban to fight the Soviets during the war in afghanhistan. Unfortunately, the Americans did not keep their proxy ally in check, and they later came back to bite them in the ass

[mosor]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

Kind of like America funding the Taliban to fight the Soviets during the war in afghanhistan. Unfortunately, the Americans did not keep their proxy ally in check, and they later came back to bite them in the ass

America didn't fund the Taliban. Pakistan did. The Tailiban only became a power after the soviets pulled out. They did fund Osma bin Laden though, but he isn't Taliban. I know it's off topic, but I wanted to clear that up.

[allankles]

smudboy wrote...


If we know it builds Reapers, then we know it will have useful technologies against the Reapers.


Yes, I'm sure entire armies are more effective at fighting a war.  This is about research, which Cerberus is very good at, sans the ethical leeways.

Knowing how to even attack your enemy -- granting an advantage --  is more important than any combat situational information (an argument after the fact.)  Because that battle could be the last one.

Ah?  They don't even believe in Reapers.

What combat experience?  It can get destroyed if Shepard doesn't choose to save it.  What possible data was acquired?

So now we're comparing the holes made in the Destiny Ascension as more relevant information than a base that makes our enemy.  Seriously.

When this thread began earlier this year I believed in keeping the base for pragmatic reasons. Even as  a Paragon Shep I thought Shephard's reasons for blowing up the base were very weak when measured against a war for the existence of organic life, I still do but I (now) nevertheless agree with the decision to destroy the base.

Simply put, upon closer examination, TIM is very poor with his intel and his organization is very poor with high risk research projects - they never seem to learn. In the case of Ceberus, the ends simply never justify the means. I thought about giving the most advanced weapons technology in the galaxy to the most radical pro human group in the galaxy, and the potential ends wouldn't justify the means used to try to achieve that end. 

To even consider the base as a potential tool against the Reapers TIM would need analysts (just like the STG with the Krogans) to consider all the potential risks, benefits, catastrophies (political, economical and military), before even asking Shep to stop the destruction of the base. TIM was half-assing his way to another giant potential clusterf**k without any kind of peer review. In the end, keeping the base is too casual a decision, it is something that will have long-term detrimental consequences on many fronts, and such consequences needed to be analyzed thoroughly before ever even facing the possibility of being able to make the decision.

[Dean_the_Young]

You're not a fan of speed chess, are you?

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

So everything is not known, really, but I ask you again: would you stake the life of the galaxy on a statement of faith?

 

Yes, and so did you.

You have faith that TIM has the wisdom to utilize the base (if I may quote Samara here). Obviously, our squadmates don't share your optimism.

Utilizing the base doesn't require faith, and I'm puzzled as to where you ever got the idea that it did.

Using the base requires the will (intent), the opportunity, and the means to do so. TIM has the will, which is never in question, the means in the form of the Reaper IFF to get there and an organization with which to study and experiment with. The only thing missing is the opportunity, which is the Shepard decision.

Faith is for when you don't have objective reason to expect something to happen. Not when you have a valid expectation: at that point, it's a founded predicition, not faith.

[Mecha Tengu]

mosor wrote...

Mecha Tengu wrote...

Kind of like America funding the Taliban to fight the Soviets during the war in afghanhistan. Unfortunately, the Americans did not keep their proxy ally in check, and they later came back to bite them in the ass

America didn't fund the Taliban. Pakistan did. The Tailiban only became a power after the soviets pulled out. They did fund Osma bin Laden though, but he isn't Taliban. I know it's off topic, but I wanted to clear that up.

the Americans chanelled funds into Pakistan which were sent to fund the muhajideen fighting the Soviets. The Americans ended up funding Al Qaeda and the Taliban to fight a proxy war

[mosor]

To be honest, as a renegade, I had a stronger twitch to destroy the base than doing a mainly paragon playthrough.

Being contemptuous of authority; sticking it to a supposed puppet master; being an engine of destruction; not wanting to change a well thought out plan at the last minute for one I'm not as certain will work.

Maybe by destroying the base, it will give the reapers something to think about. You know they have a strong fear of uncertainty. They like being able to direct outcomes. Keeping the base, is the logical, sensible but most predictable course of action. Now I don't think for a second they predicted they would lose the base. They're not omniscient. However, I do believe they hate unpredictability.

They know full well the data that exists in the base. They'll use that info to extrapolate possible scenarios that we'll use to try defeating them. Destroying the base will rob them of making projections. That uncertainty, which they fear most, will drive them crazy. Reapers deal best when their opponent works within predictable behaviors, because being AI machines, they're the masters of predictable logical behavior.

Humanity interests them because we have little uniform behavior and a plethora of different opinions. We're diverse and that makes us a threat. Maybe that's why they want to ascend us? To incorporate that trait into their collective. However, our unpredictability may be our salvation. It may give them pause, or make the wrong plans. Many wars are lost because they're unable to predict their enemy's strategy effectively.

Who knows. I still fully support keeping the base. Tech and intel do make a huge difference. Just throwing some thoughts out there since the debate is getting stale.

Modifié par mosor, 12 octobre 2010 - 10:49 .