2146 réponses à ce sujet

[allankles]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You're not a fan of speed chess, are you?

TIM was too fond of dropping intel on your head when it was convenient for him and not vice versa, all things considered using the base makes sense theoretically but the circumstances in ME2 are very messy for a variety of reasons. I seperated the theory from the pragatism and blowing up the base was a pragmatic option, it eliminates a myriad of negative probabilities that a Cereberus controlled base would create.

Don't mind speed chess, btw.

[Inverness Moon]

mosor wrote...

To be honest, as a renegade, I had a stronger twitch to destroy the base than doing a mainly paragon playthrough.

Being contemptuous of authority; sticking it to a supposed puppet master; being an engine of destruction; not wanting to change a well thought out plan at the last minute for one I'm not as certain will work.

Maybe by destroying the base, it will give the reapers something to think about. You know they have a strong fear of uncertainty. They like being able to direct outcomes. Keeping the base, is the logical, sensible but most predictable course of action. Now I don't think for a second they predicted they would lose the base. They're not omniscient. However, I do believe they hate unpredictability.

They know full well the data that exists in the base. They'll use that info to extrapolate possible scenarios that we'll use to try defeating them. Destroying the base will rob them of making projections. That uncertainty, which they fear most, will drive them crazy. Reapers deal best when their opponent works within predictable behaviors, because being AI machines, they're the masters of predictable logical behavior.

Humanity interests them because we have little uniform behavior and a plethora of different opinions. We're diverse and that makes us a threat. Maybe that's why they want to ascend us? To incorporate that trait into their collective. However, our unpredictability may be our salvation. It may give them pause, or make the wrong plans. Many wars are lost because they're unable to predict their enemy's strategy effectively.

Who knows. I still fully support keeping the base. Tech and intel do make a huge difference. Just throwing some thoughts out there since the debate is getting stale.

The unpredictability you create as a result of destroying the base doesn't counter the fact that the reapers are already completely familiar with our level of technology. Keeping the base gives us more options, in other words, more ways to be unpredictable with what we have. Collector technology is significantly advanced, studying the base could introduce us to new scientific theories and technological paths that we could better utilize in the effort against the reapers.

allankles wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You're not a fan of speed chess, are you?

TIM was too fond of dropping intel on your head when it was convenient for him and not vice versa, all things considered using the base makes sense theoretically but the circumstances in ME2 are very messy for a variety of reasons. I seperated the theory from the pragatism and blowing up the base was a pragmatic option, it eliminates a myriad of negative probabilities that a Cereberus controlled base would create.

Don't mind speed chess, btw.

Whatever problems Cerberus could create are negligible compared to the threat of the reapers, which is why I find your reasoning lacking.

It doesn't matter how badly you think Cerberus will do, because we could quite possible learn that the base may have contained the only thing that would have saved us from the reapers. Saving the base gives you a chance to discover if this is true or not, destroying it doesn't.

I think I've decided that all the arguments about keeping the base that approach it from the Cerberus angle are the result of metagaming, since Shepard would know that the reapers are a much greater threat than Cerberus, and that considering should be first in his mind.

[allankles]

As I said, theoretically keeping the base would be prudent, however the circumstances don't support my Shep going foward with letting Ceberus have it. It's basically like giving a child a nuclear device and expecting nothing to go wrong. Does TIM even give any indication that he's throroughly analysed all the pros and cons? No! I would be extremely irresponsible to give Ceberus the base under the circumstances.

You have to be able to make an informed decision, the only informed decision is to blow up the base, as all your tactical assessments for the war with the Reapers/Collectors before hand are alligned with this decision. I have the lives of countless organics in my hands, I'm going to make the decision which has predictable outcomes, for the short term at least.

The Reaper problem is on the horizon, I can't ignore that even if I wanted to but I'm not going to brush the potential social, economic and military issues under the carpet.

Again, I'm not going to make an uninformed decision based on some half-ass analysis from TIM, a man willing to gamble lives based on his own singular very narrow assesments.

Modifié par allankles, 13 octobre 2010 - 12:58 .

[allankles]

Shandepared wrote...

allankles wrote...

 Does TIM even give any indication that he's throroughly analysed all the pros and cons?

Have you?

At that point I haven't, my Shep hasn't either. TIM isn't doing much to raise my confidence on his latest proposed scheme, it's half-baked; no analysis but he expects me to drop it all for him, lay it on a platter for him. How can I rationalize giving him the base, without being irresponsible?

[Zulu_DFA]

allankles wrote...

the only informed decision is to blow up the base, as all your tactical assessments for the war with the Reapers/Collectors before hand are alligned with this decision.

When exactly was "this decision" ("destroy the Base") taken?

When did you learn for sure that it was a single space station there (with a reactor that could be manually set to overload in no-time), and not an entire planet, or a star system, or a "migrant fleet" of Collector cruisers, or a brick wall with a painting on it "R3APEЯZ VVUZ HEAR... FUKK YO, SH3PERDD!!!"

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 octobre 2010 - 01:33 .

[DPSSOC]

allankles wrote...
Does TIM even give any indication that he's throroughly analysed all the pros and cons? No! I would be extremely irresponsible to give Ceberus the base under the circumstances.

 
Clearing the base gives everyone that time though.  Let's face it when you're given the choice Shepard doesn't really have a lot of time to think about the ramifications of his/her actions.  By destroying the base you eliminate the opportunity to calmly evaluate the situation, weigh the pros and cons, and come to an informed decision.  Not saying it would change your decision but saving the base gives you the time you need to think about it.  You can always blow it up later.

allankles wrote...
The Reaper problem is on the horizon, I can't ignore that even if I wanted to but I'm not going to brush the potential social, economic and military issues under the carpet.

While this is a reasonable stance to take, and were the situation slightly different I'd agree, given the current situation this seems a lot like worrying about tripping on a stone when a boulder's about to fall on you.  Not saying it isn't a matter of concern but you do have bigger problems

allankles wrote...
Again, I'm not going to make an uninformed decision based on some half-ass analysis from TIM, a man willing to gamble lives based on his own singular very narrow assesments.

To be fair we've got evidence that TIM's gambles pay off.  Horizon was a gamble, the Collector Vessel was a gamble, the Derelict Reaper was a gamble and they were all successful.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 13 octobre 2010 - 01:37 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Cerberus's work structure and failures are just another reason why I keep the base. It just means he's stoppable if the negative outcome occurs.

The Reapers on the other hand... have no such demonstratable flaws and tech that is both unknown and far... far superior to ours. Then there's the vast numbers of them to consider.

Really, the more intel the better... who knows, Cerberus may come to respect other races even more through this...

allankles wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

allankles wrote...

 Does TIM even give any indication that he's throroughly analysed all the pros and cons?

Have you?

At that point I haven't, my Shep hasn't either. TIM isn't doing much to raise my confidence on his latest proposed scheme, it's half-baked; no analysis but he expects me to drop it all for him, lay it on a platter for him. How can I rationalize giving him the base, without being irresponsible?

So far you're 1-0 in your successful mission preparation/execution ratio with TIM and Cerberus.  Everything led to a positive outcome.  There's not much to suggest that things wouldn't continue this way against the much greater threat to humanity... the Reapers.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 13 octobre 2010 - 02:32 .

[Elite Midget]

Pretty sure the Reapers weren't familiar with the Thanix Cannon when it destroyed that Collector Ship pretty easily...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Thanix is a perfect example of adapting Reaper technology against them... but while impressive, is only a counter to one part of the Reaper problem.

[Elite Midget]

It did come from a Reaper that Shepard had destroyed 2 years prio...



Do you believe a Collector, Organic, Base will give more information than a blown up Reaper? I doubt they kept files on everything about them on that base. If anything they most likely just kept data on how to run the Collector Base and the tools, probally automated, to create a Baby Reaper.



With how obedient and unthinking the Collectors are I doubt the Reapers would see the need to leave anything too important on their base. After all, they don't put much faith in organics doing anything.



You know, unless TIM does decide to make a Mini Reaper or start work on those advanced Husks.

[smudboy]

Elite Midget wrote...

It did come from a Reaper that Shepard had destroyed 2 years prio...

Do you believe a Collector, Organic, Base will give more information than a blown up Reaper? I doubt they kept files on everything about them on that base. If anything they most likely just kept data on how to run the Collector Base and the tools, probally automated, to create a Baby Reaper.

With how obedient and unthinking the Collectors are I doubt the Reapers would see the need to leave anything too important on their base. After all, they don't put much faith in organics doing anything.

You know, unless TIM does decide to make a Mini Reaper or start work on those advanced Husks.

The thing that makes the thing?  Yes, I expect it to have a ton of data on how something is constructed.  If one knows how to construct something, one knows how to destroy it.  On the Discovery Channel, there's a program called "How It's Made."  Just by observation you can see how complex the means and methods of constructing something as simple as a lawn bowling ball is.

It doesn't matter if the base has files or actual computer data.  It has machines that make Reapers.  That should be extremely telling.

So yes, a massive, entire space station that builds Reapers is more valuable than small, destroyed hunks of Sovereign.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Elite Midget wrote...

It did come from a Reaper that Shepard had destroyed 2 years prio...

Do you believe a Collector, Organic, Base will give more information than a blown up Reaper? I doubt they kept files on everything about them on that base. If anything they most likely just kept data on how to run the Collector Base and the tools, probally automated, to create a Baby Reaper.

With how obedient and unthinking the Collectors are I doubt the Reapers would see the need to leave anything too important on their base. After all, they don't put much faith in organics doing anything.

You know, unless TIM does decide to make a Mini Reaper or start work on those advanced Husks.

The base was building a Reaper and that Reaper itself remains (as well as the technology that built it) is definitely worth more than the shards of a destroyed Reaper.

Automated instructions make it all the more valuable and all the less dangerous to study.

[Casuist]

TIM: Shepard, I think we need to talk about a few things before we make this decision. I know I've kept a number of things from you in the past, but this is such a vital decision I think I need to be perfectly honest with you.

Shepard: Hey, Timmy, don't worry about it. I'm sure any lies you have told me were perfectly altruistic on your part and had my interests in mind.

TIM: ...be that as it may, it's  healthy to go over this a bit. You see, I told you when you first returned that it was your choice to seek help from the Council. I may have let it slip that you were involved with Cerberus so as to make sure they weren't too cooperative. Can you forgive me?

Shepard: "Ah yes, the "council," we have dismissed these wussies.

TIM: I also told you that Liara was working for the Shadow Broker. You've since discovered that such an allegation was entirely false and that I was entirely aware of the fact. I mainly hoped to keep you from having any of your old squad to turn to for assistance so as to better manipulate your team.

Shepard: Well, since she's so fixated on the Broker now she wouldn't come with me anyway. Besides, aside from being responsible for my survival, what has she done for me lately? No harm, no foul.

TIM: That's a very positive attitude.

Shepard: What can I say? I'm a people person.

TIM: About the Colony of the Dead... I didn't know we'd be targeting random innocent colonists for husk experiments.

Shepard: Got it.

TIM: I was totally into kidnapping children for biotic experiments on Pragia, I admit- but they went way overboard.

Shepard: Sure, underlings getting out of hand. I know the drill... have you heard how many of Joker's wisecracks I've had to endure?

TIM: I did bug the Normandy, Shepard... but let's move on. I also place responsibility for the Overlord and
Derelict Reaper debacles entirely on the shoulders of my subordinates. Also, about Akuze...

Shepard: TIM, this is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue about who randomly tried to kill who.

TIM: So you'll give me the base?

Shepard: Of course! You're not going to use it to attack any of our allies again like when you raided the Quarian flotilla?

TIM: ...

Shepard: Just kidding, man. I know you won't do anything like that. Besides, past behavior is only a predictor of future performance most of the time.

TIM: I do intend to keep working for human supremacy, Shepard.

Shepard: Of course! But you would never again pursue that fanatical interest in a manner that would conflict with the best interests of the galaxy.  I figure that this whole using knowledge of the reapers to leverage your own goals instead of working to bring our allies into line against the threat has gotten that behavior out of your system.

TIM: Are you sure we didn't change your personality?

Shepard: Taking your past actions into account would just be an emotional, irrational reaction.

TIM: ...okay, before I let you go- on the disabled collector ship trap... I know that you were more likely to survive if you knew, and I had no way of knowing you would succeed anyway.... but I figured you were too stupid to not give it away if I let you know.

Shepard: Damn right!

Modifié par Casuist, 13 octobre 2010 - 03:41 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

TIM: Shepard, I think we need to talk about a few things before we make this decision. I know I've kept a number of things from you in the past, but this is such a vital decision I think I need to be perfectly honest with you.

Shepard: Hey, Timmy, don't worry about it. I'm sure any lies you have told me were perfectly altruistic on your part and had the objective's interest in mind. Besides... I'm still supposed to be dead.

TIM: ...be that as it may, it's healthy to go over this a bit. You see, I told you when you first returned that it was your choice to seek help from the Council. I may have let it slip that you were involved with Cerberus so as to soften them from putting you under arrest as a security risk when telling them to their face. The Council can be stupid that way.

Shepard: "Ah yes, the "council," do you know they accused me of treason working with you and warned that I could be killed for it? Being saved by you puts my life in danger yet again by the Council.. it's like they want me dead... Can you believe that?

TIM: I also told you that Liara was SUSPECTED of working for the Shadow Broker. You've since discovered that such an allegation was false but that she was working with agents that brought her closer to the Shadow Broker... but just to kill the Shadowbroker.  While I was suspicious I needed proof. You've been free to recruit who you want but we knew already that your old crew (that we could find) had changed or were in the middle of something important enough to ignore us. Take Ashley/Kaiden for instance, how'd that work out?

Shepard: Yeah, again the fact that you're the only one working to stop the Collectors has made it impossible for her/him to join with me. Everyone else is too caught up in their own affairs... like you suspected they would.

TIM: That's a perceptive attitude.

Shepard: What can I say? I notice things.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:06 .

[Inverness Moon]

Elite Midget wrote...

It did come from a Reaper that Shepard had destroyed 2 years prio...

Do you believe a Collector, Organic, Base will give more information than a blown up Reaper? I doubt they kept files on everything about them on that base. If anything they most likely just kept data on how to run the Collector Base and the tools, probally automated, to create a Baby Reaper.

With how obedient and unthinking the Collectors are I doubt the Reapers would see the need to leave anything too important on their base. After all, they don't put much faith in organics doing anything.

You know, unless TIM does decide to make a Mini Reaper or start work on those advanced Husks.

Are you suggesting that the collector base, being a factory for reapers, wouldn't have information on how to build the reaper? That is illogical, because automated tools need to be programmed, meaning there is information there. Saying that the tools are automated works against you because it means the information would need to be stored on the computers rather than having Harbinger download the information directly into their minds from dark space so they could build it.

Also, if the collectors were smart they'd have information on how to build and/or repair their ship and technology which would be quite valuable.

The collectors are also not fully organic, they've had heavy genetic modifications and have a plethora of synthetic implants. Don't forget the reapers themselves are synthetic organic hybrids.

Of course, don't forget the history of the collectors and the fact that they have a history of trading advanced technology to organics. The base is obviously where all that comes from.

[Dean_the_Young]

allankles wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You're not a fan of speed chess, are you?

TIM was too fond of dropping intel on your head when it was convenient for him and not vice versa, all things considered using the base makes sense theoretically but the circumstances in ME2 are very messy for a variety of reasons. I seperated the theory from the pragatism and blowing up the base was a pragmatic option, it eliminates a myriad of negative probabilities that a Cereberus controlled base would create.

Don't mind speed chess, btw.

Frankly, I'm more befuddled why, when faced with two options that both have galactic implications, the lack of time of do a full length, detailed consideration on one option means a defaulting to the other option... which is also lacking an extensive, full-length consideration of the cost/benefits of the galactic consequences it entails.

I mean, just think if we applied that standard to other courses of action. You face a fork in the road, and because you don't know the full route if you take the right path, including gas stops, future interstate options, and more... you therefore decide to choose the left route, despite knowing nothing about it either.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

TIM: About the Colony of the Dead... I didn't know we'd be targeting random innocent colonists for husk experiments.

Shepard: Did you know I nuked a civilian population when you sent me to stop a missle launch?

TIM: You what? I only ordered you to stop the launch.

Shepard: Yeah, but that's how I decided to get things done... you're gonna get blamed for that too.

TIM: ... Can't do anything about that now, the Reapers are the primary concern. Regarding abductions, I was totally into taking children in to improve their biotic potential on Pragia, seems though that some of the team there went way overboard.

Shepard: Sure, underlings getting out of hand. I know the drill... I'm sure the people I nuked screamed in agony as well.

TIM: I did bug the Normandy, Shepard... but darnit that's my ship and I spent a lot on it.  I'm letting you drive it but I want to know and make sure no one does anything stupid with it.  Let's move on.
The Overlord incident would not have happened if the Dr. I left in charge didn't force his autisitic brother into danger to try and save the project.  Wasn't my fault.  Also, about Akuze...

Shepard: TIM, it's easy to see the limits of your power.  You say do something and provide resources, others succeed or fail while others do desperate things to try and succeed.  You seem to get the blame for all of them regardless.

TIM: So you'll give me the base?

Shepard: Only because you seem to be hiring better people.  Your mission to stop the Collectors and choosing me to lead is the best decision you've made so far.  Of course I do have to warn you of something though...

TIM: ...

Shepard: Focus on the Reapers...

TIM: I do intend to keep working for human supremacy, Shepard.

Shepard: If you get selfish... start dreaming about power... I will kill you.  The Reapers will destroy all life and like it or not... you're the only group that is and can actively prepare against that.

TIM: Don't presume to judge me or my methods.

Shepard:  I'll stop the Reapers but I won't sacrifice the soul of our species to do it... remember that.

TIM: ...and what does that mean?

Shepard: Step out of line and I'll kill you along with Cerberus... you've been warned.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:25 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Casuist wrote...

TIM: ...okay, before I let you go- on the disabled collector ship trap... I know that you were more likely to survive if you knew, and I had no way of knowing you would succeed anyway.... but I figured you were too stupid to not give it away if I let you know.

Shepard: Damn right!

How about that Shadow Broker's intel from aboard the Normandy? Might have earned him a fortune, should he tip off the Collectors about TIM's knowing it was a trap, huh?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:39 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Casuist wrote...

TIM: ...okay, before I let you go- on the disabled collector ship trap... I know that you were more likely to survive if you knew, and I had no way of knowing you would succeed anyway.... but I figured you were too stupid to not give it away if I let you know.

Shepard: Damn right!

Because TIM spent all that time and money bringing Shepard back to life in order to kill him in an ambush...

[Elite Midget]

Inverness Moon wrote...
 Are you suggesting that the collector base, being a factory for reapers, wouldn't have information on how to build the reaper? That is illogical, because automated tools need to be programmed, meaning there is information there. Saying that the tools are automated works against you because it means the information would need to be stored on the computers rather than having Harbinger download the information directly into their minds from dark space so they could build it.

Also, if the collectors were smart they'd have information on how to build and/or repair their ship and technology which would be quite valuable.

The collectors are also not fully organic, they've had heavy genetic modifications and have a plethora of synthetic implants. Don't forget the reapers themselves are synthetic organic hybrids.

Of course, don't forget the history of the collectors and the fact that they have a history of trading advanced technology to organics. The base is obviously where all that comes from.

You can have tools automated but not have the data there on how things are run. Which is why certian things come with guides and the such since if you're just given hardware than you don't got much anyway. Not to mention that the language of the technology will be far different than anything the Citadel species have ever encountered. That is if the Reaper had entrusted anything to the Collectors that could threaten them(I doubt it). Harbringer could also have been projecting data when it was present without saving any data on the systems. Or maybe Harbringer took over the base and began the process of Reaper making itself through manipulation of the systems.

Collectors aren't smart. They're mindless servants of the Reapers and the only one shown to act on its own is the Collector Commander. Even than its actions weren't extrodinary, especially since Harbringer was in it when it actually did anything important.

Do you honestly believe that the Reapers would consider the Collectors anywhere near the top of the dominiant chain? They were Servants to the Reapers which were changed to better suit the Reapers and remove any chance of rebellion. Just because they were synthetic organic hybrids doesn't mean they aren't considered worthless Organics to the Reapers. Especially since they consider even pure synthetics as being beneath them and unworthy of ding anything but obeying them or being destroyed.

Just becase they traded technology doesn't mean it was always useful or war based. I also doubt the Reapers would have allowed any important or top end Reaper tech to be traded or even be present on the Collector Base. If anything, the Reapers most likely manipulated the 'advanced' technology used for tradeing where it's more advanced than Citadel Species stuff but worthless in the eyes of a Reaper.

[Casuist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

TIM: ...be that as it may, it's healthy to go over this a bit. You see, I told you when you first returned that it was your choice to seek help from the Council. I may have let it slip that you were involved with Cerberus so as to soften them from putting you under arrest as a security risk when telling them to their face. The Council can be stupid that way.

....right... this is an interesting "just so" story but doesn't make much sense in light of Shepard's history with the council and the support of people within it.

TIM: I also told you that Liara was SUSPECTED of working for the Shadow Broker. You've since discovered that such an allegation was false but that she was working with agents that brought her closer to the Shadow Broker... but just to kill the Shadowbroker.  While I was suspicious I needed proof.

The events of ME: Redemption make it VERY clear that TIM knew Liara was NOT working for the shadow broker.

It's interesting how the altruistic justifications people come up with to support TIM's actions conflict with what the character admits about himself (or what those near to him readily admit as well).

[Casuist]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

How about that Shadow Broker's intel from aboard the Normandy? Might have earned him a fortune, should he tip off the Collectors about TIM's knowing it was a trap, huh?

-We have no indication of bugging/capture of the quantum entanglement comm and little in-universe scientific basis for such happening.

-If the collectors have access to the shep-TIM transmissions, they're taking their own sweet time exploiting them. Indeed, if it were THAT easy the game would've been over by then.

-Is it a greater risk to send a team into a known trap without any means of guessing what the difficulty of extraction will be or to make the trap known over a comm channel with no known means of interception?

[Casuist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Because TIM spent all that time and money bringing Shepard back to life in order to kill him in an ambush...

...not intentionally, but that assurance of intention is not particularly comforting.

[Casuist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Shepard: Focus on the Reapers...

TIM: I do intend to keep working for human supremacy, Shepard.

Shepard: If you get selfish... start dreaming about power... I will kill you.  The Reapers will destroy all life and like it or not... you're the only group that is and can actively prepare against that.

TIM: Don't presume to judge me or my methods.

Shepard:  I'll stop the Reapers but I won't sacrifice the soul of our species to do it... remember that.

TIM: ...and what does that mean?

Shepard: Step out of line and I'll kill you along with Cerberus... you've been warned.

Fair enough. As I've stated before, I have no problem with people taking the renegade path, and your perspective as stated in this little mockup is entirely valid (although, for the record, TIM does not send Shepard on the missile launch side mission). If you got some other impression from my post then I apologize. I have a problem with anyone suggesting either side of the choice lacks rationale or pragmatism.