2146 réponses à ce sujet

[mosor]

Elite Midget wrote...

You can have tools automated but not have the data there on how things are run. Which is why certian things come with guides and the such since if you're just given hardware than you don't got much anyway. Not to mention that the language of the technology will be far different than anything the Citadel species have ever encountered. That is if the Reaper had entrusted anything to the Collectors that could threaten them(I doubt it). Harbringer could also have been projecting data when it was present without saving any data on the systems. Or maybe Harbringer took over the base and began the process of Reaper making itself through manipulation of the systems.

How can you know this without studying the base? Besides, we have a bit of a baseline when intergrating reaper tech. It's based on mass effect technology. Turians managed to copy the Thannix Cannon. Cerberus managed to incorperate reaper AI, and develop EDI with anti-reaper algorithims. Even if the base was fully automated without any guide, you can learn a lot just by studying it.

Do you honestly believe that the Reapers would consider the Collectors anywhere near the top of the dominiant chain? They were Servants to the Reapers which were changed to better suit the Reapers and remove any chance of rebellion. Just because they were synthetic organic hybrids doesn't mean they aren't considered worthless Organics to the Reapers. Especially since they consider even pure synthetics as being beneath them and unworthy of ding anything but obeying them or being destroyed.

Inconsequential.

Just becase they traded technology doesn't mean it was always useful or war based. I also doubt the Reapers would have allowed any important or top end Reaper tech to be traded or even be present on the Collector Base. If anything, the Reapers most likely manipulated the 'advanced' technology used for tradeing where it's more advanced than Citadel Species stuff but worthless in the eyes of a Reaper.

What do you know? You destroyed the base. You're assuming things to justify your decision. You're not justifying it using any known facts.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Casuist wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

TIM: ...be that as it may, it's healthy to go over this a bit. You see, I told you when you first returned that it was your choice to seek help from the Council. I may have let it slip that you were involved with Cerberus so as to soften them from putting you under arrest as a security risk when telling them to their face. The Council can be stupid that way.

....right... this is an interesting "just so" story but doesn't make much sense in light of Shepard's history with the council and the support of people within it.

It does because Shepard's been gone without word for 2 years and was reported as KIA by his crew and them.  Seeing him return and saying "I'm with Cerberus... or I was dead and Cerberus brought me back and I'm working with them now" would sound all manner of alarms in initial response because of the initial shock.  Them knowing ahead of time allowed their heads to cool... and even then, they tell you working with Cerberus is treason and a capital offense.

The events of ME: Redemption make it VERY clear that TIM knew Liara was NOT working for the shadow broker.

It's interesting how the altruistic justifications people come up with to support TIM's actions conflict with what the character admits about himself (or what those near to him readily admit as well).

TIM knew Liara wasn't working for the Shadow Broker then, during Redemption.  But afterwards, while she is on Ilium, no telling really... unless I missed something.

Regarding the second part, what others readily say about TIM is that while he's no saint, he's not as bad as he's being made to seem.  I believe that is true about him.  I don't trust him, but I also don't believe he's as vile as claimed as I too had the option of doing vile things under the banner of Cerberus without TIM having anything to do with it.

...not intentionally, but that assurance of intention is not particularly comforting.

It's not, but makes sense considering the only reason you're alive to begin with is him.

Fair enough. As I've stated before, I have no problem with people taking the renegade path, and your perspective as stated in this little mockup is entirely valid (although, for the record, TIM does not send Shepard on the missile launch side mission). If you got some other impression from my post then I apologize. I have a problem with anyone suggesting either side of the choice lacks rationale or pragmatism.  

Destroying the base is the dominant "good choice/on faith of beating the Reapers without every resource" viewpoint.  Bioware rewards faith when making a Paragon decision, so it'll undoubtably work out fine.  They reward Renegades too... just in a different way and depending on what you're after.

All I've been doing on here is trying to open eyes to the other alternative not being "evil" as a choice.  Renegade-related things seem to attach a negative connotation which isn't always the case.  It's also to reveal that TIM may really be not as bad as you all seem to think he is while still being something of a villain.

The other thing about Cerberus is when they do something, they don't need to hide it.  They feel justified in their actions and are willing to explain it.   Miranda does this if you talk with her about it.

The choice is ultiamtely based on what liability you feel you can manage:  The Reapers or TIM.  Both will have to be dealt with in ME3 I'm sure. 

Paragon choice see TIM as the greater long-term evil that could not be managed if he gets his hands on that base compared to/in light of the Reaper threat.

Renegade choice see Reapers as the greater long-term evil that can not be managed without taking every advantage possible compared to TIM's more easily stoppable potential ambitions.



EDIT:  For the record, I am a full Paragon with less than 1/5th bar's worth of Renegade.  I play making choices I would make (instead of playing toward "being" Paragon or Renegade)

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 13 octobre 2010 - 07:42 .

[Inverness Moon]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Paragon choice see TIM as the greater long-term evil that could not be managed if he gets his hands on that base compared to/in light of the Reaper threat.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind could think that. Cerberus hasn't been wiping out species for tens of millions of years, the reapers have.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Paragon choice see TIM as the greater long-term evil that could not be managed if he gets his hands on that base compared to/in light of the Reaper threat.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind could think that. Cerberus hasn't been wiping out species for tens of millions of years, the reapers have.

Could be metagaming and it could be the faith that the Reapers themselves will be stopped.  If TIM is left with the Reaper killing tech, they feel TIM could turn that against the galaxy themselves... or inhibit the fight against the Reapers more than help.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 13 octobre 2010 - 08:02 .

[Elite Midget]

Fruitless pursuit of knowledge that might not even be there. With all the risks involved with keeping it intact it's better to blow it up, so no systems are online anymore, and gather the scraps later to create something new and amazing like the Thanix Cannon. Reaper Tech left intact is ripe for exploitation by the Reapers to strike back against Organic Life. Hence why every attempt to mess with Reaper Tech, that was mostly intact or its systems were still operational, either ends with dead Researchers/Colonist or the tech killing itself beforehand and just leaving scraps.

We aren't even sure Reapers even use a Thanix Cannon. From what I got from it the ME2(Perfected) Thanix Cannon was Turian Tech + Salvaged Soveriegn parts. Which would explain why the Collectors were unprepared for the Thanix Cannon and how easily their giant ship was blown to bits. Had the Reapers used the tech than I doubt it would have been that effective against the Collector Ship. Especially if, as you believe, the Reapers entrusted important data to the Collectors and kept said data on the base. Which doesn't make sense since the Collectors are unthinking slaves to the Reapers and don't do anything without the command of a Reaper. Thus they wouldn't need data on their systems on how to use anything since Sovereign can just jump into one of them and than filter the information to the rest.

Don't bring up the assuming arguement because both sides of it are assuming things. I wont even bother replying to that since that was brought up more than once and is a weak aruguement.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 13 octobre 2010 - 08:23 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

As an example btw of Paragon and Renegade choices working out.

I took the neutral choice in ME1 regarding the council.

Consequences are that I'm a hero to Humanity while seeming like someone who puts humanity above galactic concerns and changed the galactic status quo. Also the death of the Council is blamed on Admiral Hackett.

The Paragon consequences are almost the opposite, you're considered a hero but Humanity feels you betrayed them and presevered the current Council-dominated status quo.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 13 octobre 2010 - 08:25 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Elite Midget wrote...

Fruitless pursuit of knowledge that might not even be there. With all the risks involved with keeping it intact it's better to blow it up, so no systems are online anymore, and gather the scraps later to create something new and amazing like the Thanix Cannon. Reaper Tech left intact is ripe for exploitation by the Reapers to strike back against Organic Life. Hence why every attempt to mess with Reaper Tech, that was mostly intact or its systems were still operational, either ends with dead Researchers/Colonist or the tech killing itself beforehand and just leaving scraps.

We aren't even sure Reapers even use a Thanix Cannon. From what I got from it the ME2(Perfected) Thanix Cannon was Turian Tech + Salvaged Soveriegn parts. Which would explain why the Collectors were unprepared for the Thanix Cannon and how easily their giant ship was blown to bits. Had the Reapers used the tech than I doubt it would have been that effective against the Collector Ship. Especially if, as you believe, the Reapers entrusted important data to the Collectors and kept said data on the base. Which doesn't make sense since the Collectors are unthinking slaves to the Reapers and don't do anything without the command of a Reaper. Thus they wouldn't need data on their systems on how to use anything since Sovereign can just jump into one of them and than filter the information to the rest.

Don't bring up the assuming arguement because both sides of it are assuming things. I wont even bother replying to that since that was brought up more than once and is a weak aruguement.

The Reapers employ a more powerful, larger form of the Thanix, but supposedly it's the same technology.  The knowledge hunt may not turn up anything, but it's worth a try.  We're not ready for the Reapers yet... and this is the biggest break toward stopping them that we've gotten since the series began.


EDIT--sorry for double post

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 13 octobre 2010 - 08:29 .

[Casuist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

It does because Shepard's been gone without word for 2 years and was reported as KIA by his crew and them.  Seeing him return and saying "I'm with Cerberus... or I was dead and Cerberus brought me back and I'm working with them now" would sound all manner of alarms in initial response because of the initial shock.  Them knowing ahead of time allowed their heads to cool... and even then, they tell you working with Cerberus is treason and a capital offense.

The best case for all involved is if cerberus provides assistance behind the scenes. Again, your "heads cooling" scenario makes for a good tale, but there's no reason to think that it's the case. Shepard arriving with evidence of collector abductions with allies on the council and his history as a spectre would not likely be any worse than the response that he/she got, and quite possibly could be better. Add to that: the notion that TIM leaked the information to "soften the blow" bears no evidence whatsoever.

TIM knew Liara wasn't working for the Shadow Broker then, during Redemption.  But afterwards, while she is on Ilium, no telling really... unless I missed something.

I must have missed the part where TIM said "Liara was enraged against the Shadow Broker, actively working with us against him, but who knows she might have switched sides and started helping him out for no particular reason." It must have been hidden behind the "My sources say she's working with him" comment.

Regarding the second part, what others readily say about TIM is that while he's no saint, he's not as bad as he's being made to seem.  I believe that is true about him.  I don't trust him, but I also don't believe he's as vile as claimed as I too had the option of doing vile things under the banner of Cerberus without TIM having anything to do with it.

Because you have the choice to be evil, TIM might not be? TIM is a murderer, kidnapper and human supremacist. Such are the facts established in the game and associated media. He's  open about his agenda and Miranda and Jacob readily confirm his nature. It's entirely valid from a roleplay perspective to accept that, but don't try to change him to something he's not.

...not intentionally, but that assurance of intention is not particularly comforting.

It's not, but makes sense considering the only reason you're alive to begin with is him.

So it's okay for him to lie to Shepard and endanger him/her because of the Lazarus project? Getting Shepard killed by mistake leaves him/her just as dead, and from an in-game roleplay perspective the patronistic "you can't be told what is going on because you're too stupid to know" thing isn't going to fly, and is a very good reason not to rely on TIM more than is absolutely necessary.

Fair enough. As I've stated before, I have no problem with people taking the renegade path, and your perspective as stated in this little mockup is entirely valid (although, for the record, TIM does not send Shepard on the missile launch side mission). If you got some other impression from my post then I apologize. I have a problem with anyone suggesting either side of the choice lacks rationale or pragmatism.  

Destroying the base is the dominant "good choice/on faith of beating the Reapers without every resource" viewpoint.  Bioware rewards faith when making a Paragon decision, so it'll undoubtably work out fine.  They reward Renegades too... just in a different way and depending on what you're after.

Both sides require rationale. Both sides require faith. If you think that the paragon path is disproportionately faithful, the above list of the reasons why TIM having the base can actively impede Shepard's agenda is indeed for you. 

Paragon choice see TIM as the greater long-term evil that could not be managed if he gets his hands on that base compared to/in light of the Reaper threat.

This is absolute nonsense. Those supporting the "paragon" choice see TIM, rightly, as a short-term necessity and a long-term evil not nearly the measure of the Reaper threat. I make the choice (on said playthroughs) to destroy the base because those Shepards are working towards a communal resolution to the reaper threat among the citadel species (and others). i.e. we're all in this together, and this is the only way we're going to win. TIM's agenda is contrary to that goal, and even aside from that his agenda could easily get in the way of a Shepard that relies strictly on humanity.  

Modifié par Casuist, 13 octobre 2010 - 08:31 .

[Elite Midget]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The Reapers employ a more powerful, larger form of the Thanix, but supposedly it's the same technology.  The knowledge hunt may not turn up anything, but it's worth a try.  We're not ready for the Reapers yet... and this is the biggest break toward stopping them that we've gotten since the series began.


EDIT--sorry for double post

The biggest break was destroying Soveriegn, and completely disabling its systems, and salvaging it for the creation of things like the Thanix Cannon that the Reapers weren't prepared for.

The risks involved with Reaper Tech don't make it worth the time or effort. The Base was ineffective against one Ship with Citadel Species Tech. If the Reaper Tech, that could be harmful to the Reapers, was there than I fail to see how an Orcanic Species could have went about in destroying it as they did(Also, the vents in the Collector Base... That's a big oversight that I doubt the Reapers would overlook in a station that holds tech that could kill them). All that we did know was that the Base had the tools to make Reapers, advanced husks, and Collector Weapons which aren't all that they're cracked up to be.

I wouldn't say the Reapers use the same thing. The Thanix was born from salvaged Reaper Tech and Turian Tech while the Reaper weapon is their tech to the fullest. The amount of power the Thanix Cannon can produce for the weapon being fairly small is amazing. If anything the Reaper larger form beam is the outdated weapon here. Which is why the collectors were utterly beaten when faced with just one. As the Colector Ship jas shown. Size, nor giant beams, matter when pitted against the raw power that the Thanix Cannon can push out.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Casuist wrote...
The best case for all involved is if cerberus provides assistance behind the scenes. Again, your "heads cooling" scenario makes for a good tale, but there's no reason to think that it's the case. Shepard arriving with evidence of collector abductions with allies on the council and his history as a spectre would not likely be any worse than the response that he/she got, and quite possibly could be better. Add to that: the notion that TIM leaked the information to "soften the blow" is absolute nonsense.

Uhh, he arrived on a Cerberus Normandy and he was dead.  He could lie to them and make up a story, but that would make him seem even more guilty.  Let the truth come out at the beginning, that's the best way.  That's what was done.

Likewise, saying he's working with Cerberus as a Spectre doesn't really cause any problems... additionally you get their support... but they NEVER had authority in the Terminus systems.  So all considered, I think it's a moot point.

I must have missed the part where TIM said "Liara was enraged against the Shadow Broker, actively working with us against him, but who knows she might have switched sides and started helping him out for no particular reason." It must have been hidden behind the "My sources say she's working with him" comment.

Liara's rage was more psychotic and buried.  She became an information broker and as far as I'm concerned... sold her soul to it. 

Because you have the choice to be evil, TIM might not be? TIM is a murderer, kidnapper and human supremacist. Such are the facts established in the game and associated media. He's  open about his agenda and Miranda and Jacob readily confirm his nature. It's entirely valid from a roleplay perspective to accept that, but don't try to change him to something he's not.

Please read what I'm saying a little more carefully.  I'm saying while he's no saint, and a villain to be dealt with, he's not as bad as he's been made to seem.  Cerberus gets a lot of heat and negative press, doesn't mean all of it's warranted.  A lie told loud and often enough isn't less of a lie even if it matches a line of truths.

So it's okay for him to lie to Shepard and endanger him/her because of the Lazarus project? Getting Shepard killed by mistake leaves him/her just as dead, and from an in-game roleplay perspective the patronistic "you can't be told what is going on because you're too stupid to know" thing isn't going to fly, and is a very good reason not to rely on TIM more than is absolutely necessary.

He's obviously very objective-based in his thinking.  He felt us knowing ahead of time could've tipped the Collectors off "any number of ways".  No reason to doubt that explaination... never said I liked it and I warned him not to do it again.  He's a calculating cautious person that approaches missions like he would a chess game.  There's a method to his madness... even if it's still madness.

Both sides require rationale. Both sides require faith. If you think that the paragon path is disproportionately faithful, the above list of the reasons why TIM having the base can actively impede Shepard's agenda is indeed for you.

Like I said, a matter of "the greater percieved threat".  TIM with the base or fighting the Reapers without the base. 

This is absolute nonsense. Those supporting the "paragon" choice see TIM, rightly, as a short-term necessity and a long-term evil not nearly the measure of the Reaper threat. I make the choice (on said playthroughs) to destroy the base because those Shepards are working towards a communal resolution to the reaper threat among the citadel species (and others). i.e. we're all in this together, and this is the only way we're going to win. TIM's agenda is contrary to that goal, and even aside from that his agenda could easily get in the way of a Shepard that relies strictly on humanity.  

You say it's nonsense but your explaination ties right into it.  You feel that giving the base to TIM disrupts galactic stability which is the key to beating the Reapers (should you ever convince them that you're alive and that the Reapers are real).  Consequently, TIM is the greater long-term threat because you already believe you'll beat the Reapers... but only when fighting alongside the other galactic races.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Elite Midget wrote...
The biggest break was destroying Soveriegn, and completely disabling its systems, and salvaging it for the creation of things like the Thanix Cannon that the Reapers weren't prepared for.

The risks involved with Reaper Tech don't make it worth the time or effort. The Base was ineffective against one Ship with Citadel Species Tech. If the Reaper Tech, that could be harmful to the Reapers, was there than I fail to see how an Orcanic Species could have went about in destroying it as they did(Also, the vents in the Collector Base... That's a big oversight that I doubt the Reapers would overlook in a station that holds tech that could kill them). All that we did know was that the Base had the tools to make Reapers, advanced husks, and Collector Weapons which aren't all that they're cracked up to be.

I wouldn't say the Reapers use the same thing. The Thanix was born from salvaged Reaper Tech and Turian Tech while the Reaper weapon is their tech to the fullest. The amount of power the Thanix Cannon can produce for the weapon being fairly small is amazing. If anything the Reaper larger form beam is the outdated weapon here. Which is why the collectors were utterly beaten when faced with just one. As the Colector Ship jas shown. Size, nor giant beams, matter when pitted against the raw power that the Thanix Cannon can push out.

The biggest threat in my eyes is Indoctrination.  The Thanix Cannon does nothing against that and could render any armed assault against the Reapers useless.  Grayson showed the fullest extent of its capability yet seen and it can be used to devastating effect.

Older defeated races had guns that could kill a Reaper before... I think indoctrination was the primary killer.  Destroying alliances from within and without while the Reapers themselves still went to work.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 13 octobre 2010 - 08:51 .

[Elite Midget]

So you believe you can beat the Reapers just fine with just TIM and alienating the other Citadel Species/Authorities? That's a big leap of faith, far bigger than destroying the base if you ask me.



Do you think the other Races will simply accept the power Cerberus has obtained? Let alone consider allying with them? They already fooled themselves about the Reapers in the past. If anything keeping the Base and giving it to Cerberus will push the Citadel Authority to declare Shepard as going completely rogue and aiding a Terrorist Organization to disrupt Galatic Stability.



The public will believe them because it's easier to believe that than the Reapers.



As for the Alliance... The Alliance would never support the power TIM has obtained or risk being publicly exposed as helping TIM. Nor would TIM ever share the technology with the Alliance or any Citadel Species for that matter.



If anything, the Citadel Races would immediatly send their forces out to destroy Cerberus in an attempt to obtain the Base for themselves. Thus leading to more senseless death from the fighting as well as the deaths hat will follow from messing with intact Reaper Tech.

[Arijharn]

Can someone please explain to me how they plan to win without the Collector Base and their army of allies? Considering Reapers are apparently impervious to Dreadnought fire power then are those people who destroyed the CB planning on merely throwing their forces like some form of space avalanche in the hope of 'overwhelming' the Reaper forces?



Not to put a too finer point on it, but doesn't that seem a bit daft to anyone else? That's an awful lot of assumptions to overcome (and from a 'lower' position on the technological scale) than if you just tried to let Cerberus discover the Collector secrets and then sort of take over the base or something later on behalf of the Council (if that's what you prefer).



It just seems rash to destroy it is all, I feel as if I'm making a safer bet by keeping it, even if it is in the hands of Cerberus.

[Casuist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Liara's rage was more psychotic and buried.  She became an information broker and as far as I'm concerned... sold her soul to it. 

Fair enough. All evidence shown is that she is working against the SB. TIM knows this, and claims the opposite.

Please read what I'm saying a little more carefully.  I'm saying while he's no saint, and a villain to be dealt with, he's not as bad as he's been made to seem.  Cerberus gets a lot of heat and negative press, doesn't mean all of it's warranted.  A lie told loud and often enough isn't less of a lie even if it matches a line of truths.

What claims about TIM or Cerberus do you feel are untrue?

He's obviously very objective-based in his thinking.  He felt us knowing ahead of time could've tipped the Collectors off "any number of ways".  No reason to doubt that explaination... never said I liked it and I warned him not to do it again.  He's a calculating cautious person that approaches missions like he would a chess game.  There's a method to his madness... even if it's still madness.

No reason to doubt his explanation. Plenty reason not to trust him.

Consequently, TIM is the greater long-term threat because you already believe you'll beat the Reapers... but only when fighting alongside the other galactic races.

The Reapers are a greater long-term threat, quite obviously. Under certain scenarios, not giving the base to TIM is a better option with respect to defeating the reapers, namely those scenarios where TIM may be working at cross purposes (whether or not he intends to).

[Arijharn]

I don't plan to alienate the... aliens. Why is it a case of either/or you get the base or you get your allies? I've cultivated both (as much as capable). Besides, I find it highly unlikely that when the slugs get thrown around and the Reapers start munching on colonies that they'll be so quick to turn away help... from the Alliance (why would Cerberus make themselves public?)

[Gibb_Shepard]

Arijharn wrote...

Can someone please explain to me how they plan to win without the Collector Base and their army of allies? 

It has been explained countless time in a variety of different forms throughout this and the old thread. I mean this whole discussion seems to be this question alone, the base destroyers explaining logically and thoroughly to the few base-keepers why they are not mentally retarded for keeping the base, followed by a quick dismissal being labelled idiotic and illogical.

Asking this question once again will only get you the exact same answers that have been provided throughout this thread and the old threads history. I think the base-destroyers have explained themselves well, and obviously the base-keepers still can't accept their logic. Once again, literally every possible answer to be given to this question has been explained thoroughly in this discussion. You will not find new information by asking it again.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:27 .

[Ieldra]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
Can someone please explain to me how they plan to win without the Collector Base and their army of allies? 

It has been explained countless time in a variety of different forms throughout this and the old thread. I mean this whole discussion seems to be this question alone, the base destroyers explaining logically and thoroughly to the few base-keepers why they are not mentally retarded for keeping the base, followed by a quick dismissal being labelled idiotic and illogical.

There's reason for that: it is illogical to simply assume that you don't need a technological breakthrough to win, or that while accepting you do need it, to assume that you are as likely to get that breakthrough without more samples of Reaper technology than without them. That's a prime example of wishful thinking, which would actually be excusable in the light of Cerberus' goals if the consequences of being wrong weren't so final.

For that's the crux of the matter: none of us really knows if we're right or wrong. But keeping the base for now - you can come back later and destroy it should it prove too dangerous - risks the lesser evil. There is no way around that, unless you assume there's a sigficicant risk of Cerberus's actions being the deciding factor for making the Reapers win. 

To get to that: several ways have been pointed out how to reduce the risk of Cerberus catastrophically mishandling the situation should that be an issue, which are all much more plausible than the scenarios that have been put forward to win against the Reapers without a technological breakthrough.  

I don't doubt you're feeling pragmatic, but your claims rest on untested assumptions where you can't afford to be wrong. Keeping the base, however, you can afford to be wrong. Cerberus creating the Evil Empire might be a lot to be responsible for, but it pales into insignificance in comparison with galaxy-wide extinction. Recall the description of the work of the Spectres? They're used when "completing the mission isn't the first priority, it's the only priority". No scenario fits this better than the Reaper invasion. Avoiding galaxy-wide extinction is the only priority. As long as we cannot be very sure we can achieve that - and at the end of ME2 we can't - any action must to into reducing that risk. Anything else is irresponsible. 

Edit:
What about this scenario: Keep the base, then tell the Council and/or your other allies, who may proceed to take over the base from Cerberus. The big alliance is maintained, political blowback is minimal since even the Alliance doesn't trust Cerberus, Cerberus is damaged, AND the knowledge in the base isn't lost.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:11 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
Can someone please explain to me how they plan to win without the Collector Base and their army of allies? 

It has been explained countless time in a variety of different forms throughout this and the old thread. I mean this whole discussion seems to be this question alone, the base destroyers explaining logically and thoroughly to the few base-keepers why they are not mentally retarded for keeping the base, followed by a quick dismissal being labelled idiotic and illogical.

There's reason for that: it is illogical 

Edit:
What about this scenario: Keep the base, then tell the Council and/or your other allies, who may proceed to take over the base from Cerberus. The big alliance is maintained, political blowback is minimal since even the Alliance doesn't trust Cerberus, Cerberus is damaged, AND the knowledge in the base isn't lost.

Here it is again. Despite my overwhelming want to rebut this, i'm not going to argue, everything that has needed to be said has been said. Nothing i say will change your view, and nothing you say change my view. I have my reasons, that, once again, have been stated many times by myself and many others thoroughly.

Then i would keep the base, but we all know that scenario would never happen. The decision is essentially "Destroy the base, along with your alliance with Cerberus" and "Keep the base, strengthening your ties with Cerberus, while giving them all the information".

[Inverness Moon]

I wonder why people keep suggesting that giving the base to Cerberus will make cooperation with other species more difficult. Shepard is not going to run around proclaiming that he gave that technology to Cerberus and TIM is not going to go around proclaiming that Cerberus has it. Shepard's crew isn't going to tell anyone if they have any interest in ensuring cooperation against the reapers threat.

What TIM will do is quietly distribute the necessary technology to the Alliance so they can upgrade their fleets.

And even if the bit about the collector base gets out, no one in their right mind would deny help from Cerberus or the Alliance in order to stop the reapers.

Relations might sour after the reaper are dealt with, but we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:41 .

[Ieldra]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Edit:
What about this scenario: Keep the base, then tell the Council and/or your other allies, who may proceed to take over the base from Cerberus. The big alliance is maintained, political blowback is minimal since even the Alliance doesn't trust Cerberus, Cerberus is damaged, AND the knowledge in the base isn't lost.

Then i would keep the base, but we all know that scenario would never happen. The decision is essentially "Destroy the base, along with your alliance with Cerberus" and "Keep the base, strengthening your ties with Cerberus, while giving them all the information".

Again, that's your assumption. You only know it's likely because of metagaming, but if we use metagaming, then we all know that destroying the base is probably the right decision, because the story is written that way and it's foreshadowed in the opinions of the team members. In that case, we wouldn't be having this argument in the first place.

Would you be able to maintain your reasoning if you forget metagaming and step into the shoes of Commander Shepard? You know, I'm actually very convinced that once the Council finally accepts the scope of the threat, they might even accept a co-operation with Cerberus.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:46 .

[tallinn]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...



The choice is ultiamtely based on what liability you feel you can manage:  The Reapers or TIM.  Both will have to be dealt with in ME3 I'm sure. 

Paragon choice see TIM as the greater long-term evil that could not be managed if he gets his hands on that base compared to/in light of the Reaper threat.

Renegade choice see Reapers as the greater long-term evil that can not be managed without taking every advantage possible compared to TIM's more easily stoppable potential ambitions.

My viewpoint on the Paragon choice is a little bit different: I consider TIM with base as something that will weaken the ability of the galaxy to defeat the Reapers, as I expect TIM not to use that base to fight the Reapers but to obtain dominance in the galaxy. The Reaper threat is still the bigger threat compared to TIM with base. However, TIM with base just adds to the problem instead of making it easier to handle.

Everyone here assumes that TIM is taking the Reapers threat as serious as Shephard does and, having obtained the base, will use it to fight the Reapers. We do not have any evidence that this would be case. I see more signs that it will be not. I expect Cerberus to be another trouble maker in ME3.

[lovgreno]

Ieldra2 wrote...

There's reason for that: it is illogical to simply assume that you don't need a technological breakthrough to win, or that while accepting you do need it, to assume that you are as likely to get that breakthrough without more samples of Reaper technology than without them. That's a prime example of wishful thinking, which would actually be excusable in the light of Cerberus' goals if the consequences of being wrong weren't so final.

It is also illogical to assume that the base must contain the only way to win. It is also illogical to assume that the base will not still be the big (or even bigger) threat it was before, even under Cerberus attempting to controll it. Those reapers are sneaky you know. So there is as much wishfull thinking required for base keepers as there is for base blowers.

[Ieldra]

lovgreno wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
There's reason for that: it is illogical to simply assume that you don't need a technological breakthrough to win, or that while accepting you do need it, to assume that you are as likely to get that breakthrough without more samples of Reaper technology than without them. That's a prime example of wishful thinking, which would actually be excusable in the light of Cerberus' goals if the consequences of being wrong weren't so final.

It is also illogical to assume that the base must contain the only way to win.

We don't assume that. We only say that we cannot afford to assume the opposite. Which I maintain - see the risk analysis.

It is also illogical to assume that the base will not still be the big (or even bigger) threat it was before, even under Cerberus attempting to controll it. Those reapers are sneaky you know.

It is illogical to assume that a great technological resource is better off in the hands of an ally - even an untrustworthy one - than an enemy determined to exterminate my species? I fail to see the failure of logic here.

Edit:
However, I do admit to one assumption: I assume that Reaper technology can be understood by a human mind. Given what has already been done with the Thanix cannon and EDI, I think I have grounds to be optimistic.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 octobre 2010 - 12:33 .

[Dean_the_Young]

tallinn wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...



The choice is ultiamtely based on what liability you feel you can manage:  The Reapers or TIM.  Both will have to be dealt with in ME3 I'm sure. 

Paragon choice see TIM as the greater long-term evil that could not be managed if he gets his hands on that base compared to/in light of the Reaper threat.

Renegade choice see Reapers as the greater long-term evil that can not be managed without taking every advantage possible compared to TIM's more easily stoppable potential ambitions.

My viewpoint on the Paragon choice is a little bit different: I consider TIM with base as something that will weaken the ability of the galaxy to defeat the Reapers, as I expect TIM not to use that base to fight the Reapers but to obtain dominance in the galaxy. The Reaper threat is still the bigger threat compared to TIM with base. However, TIM with base just adds to the problem instead of making it easier to handle.

How does TIM with the base asssist the Reapers?

Why do you doubt that TIM will not fight the Reapers, when he's done more already than the entire Council?

Everyone here assumes that TIM is taking the Reapers threat as serious as Shephard does and, having obtained the base, will use it to fight the Reapers. We do not have any evidence that this would be case. I see more signs that it will be not. I expect Cerberus to be another trouble maker in ME3.

So... Mass Effect 2 didn't happen in your playthrough?

[Dean_the_Young]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Edit:
However, I do admit to one assumption: I assume that Reaper technology can be understood by a human mind.

That's not an assumption, since it's already occured more than once.