2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Edit:
However, I do admit to one assumption: I assume that Reaper technology can be understood by a human mind.

That's not an assumption, since it's already occured more than once.

Yep, I just changed my post accordingly.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]lovgreno wrote...
It is also illogical to assume that the base must contain the only way to win.[/quote]Who is making this claim?
[uote]
It is also illogical to assume that the base will not still be the big (or even bigger) threat it was before, even under Cerberus attempting to controll it. [/quote]Bigger than before? Oh, do tell this fanciful story of how the base is going to get new capabilities exceeding what it could do previously and that couldn't be set into motion regardless of whether you destroy the base or keep it.

The Collectors will be dead. Indoctrination traps can be circumvented and discovered. Cerberus has leisure to go through the Collector's computer systems to look for systems.

These are not the basis of an illogical flipancy.


[quote]
Those reapers are sneaky you know. So there is as much wishfull thinking required for base keepers as there is for base blowers.[/quote]Reapers are not ominiscient or omnipotent either. Sometimes they simply just lost.

Quantity of assumptions may be up for debate, but quality at this point is far less murky.

[tallinn]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

tallinn wrote...

My viewpoint on the Paragon choice is a little bit different: I consider TIM with base as something that will weaken the ability of the galaxy to defeat the Reapers, as I expect TIM not to use that base to fight the Reapers but to obtain dominance in the galaxy. The Reaper threat is still the bigger threat compared to TIM with base. However, TIM with base just adds to the problem instead of making it easier to handle.

How does TIM with the base asssist the Reapers?

Imagine a TIM that takes the base to seize the power in the galaxy and to obtain human domination. Will this make the galaxy weaker or stronger to defeat the Reapers? I say it makes it weaker.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Why do you doubt that TIM will not fight the Reapers, when he's done more already than the entire Council?

Everyone here assumes that TIM is taking the Reapers threat as serious as Shephard does and, having obtained the base, will use it to fight the Reapers. We do not have any evidence that this would be case. I see more signs that it will be not. I expect Cerberus to be another trouble maker in ME3.

So... Mass Effect 2 didn't happen in your playthrough?

So, TIM did fight the Reapers? He did fight the Collectors. He wanted to know what is at the other end of the Omega 4 Portal. Do not take everything he says for granted. Reassuring Shephard in his fear of the Reapers is needed to motivate him to do what he is supposed to do for TIM.

There is no clue what so ever how to defeat a full-powered Reaper fleet attack, with or without the base. TIM is the type of character that allies with his strongest enemy if he sees he can't beat him. Maybe his idea is to sacrifice all other races to the Reapers while preserving mankind? Would fit well into his job description.

[smudboy]

tallinn wrote...

Imagine a TIM that takes the base to seize the power in the galaxy and to obtain human domination. Will this make the galaxy weaker or stronger to defeat the Reapers? I say it makes it weaker.

I had no idea Collectors had the power of time travel.

So, TIM did fight the Reapers? He did fight the Collectors. He wanted to know what is at the other end of the Omega 4 Portal. Do not take everything he says for granted. Reassuring Shephard in his fear of the Reapers is needed to motivate him to do what he is supposed to do for TIM.

TIM fought the Reapers through the Collectors, right?

Didn't TIM just want the attacks on the colonies to stop?  Isn't that why he's after the Collectors?

There is no clue what so ever how to defeat a full-powered Reaper fleet attack, with or without the base. TIM is the type of character that allies with his strongest enemy if he sees he can't beat him. Maybe his idea is to sacrifice all other races to the Reapers while preserving mankind? Would fit well into his job description.

If the base builds Reapers, then that answers how to destroy a Reaper.

Did TIM ever ally with one of their strongest enemies before?

Maybe TIM's idea is to make a luxury resort, dominated by a human workforce?

[Dean_the_Young]

tallinn wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

tallinn wrote...

My viewpoint on the Paragon choice is a little bit different: I consider TIM with base as something that will weaken the ability of the galaxy to defeat the Reapers, as I expect TIM not to use that base to fight the Reapers but to obtain dominance in the galaxy. The Reaper threat is still the bigger threat compared to TIM with base. However, TIM with base just adds to the problem instead of making it easier to handle.

How does TIM with the base asssist the Reapers?

Imagine a TIM that takes the base to seize the power in the galaxy and to obtain human domination. Will this make the galaxy weaker or stronger to defeat the Reapers? I say it makes it weaker.

If he does it before.

Which, in his own words, isn't the end all: through the reapers and beyond. After the Reapers.

Why would TIM suddenly be unable to not tip his hand before the Reapers, and weaken his (and Humanity's) position when it matters most?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Why do you doubt that TIM will not fight the Reapers, when he's done more already than the entire Council?

Everyone here assumes that TIM is taking the Reapers threat as serious as Shephard does and, having obtained the base, will use it to fight the Reapers. We do not have any evidence that this would be case. I see more signs that it will be not. I expect Cerberus to be another trouble maker in ME3.

So... Mass Effect 2 didn't happen in your playthrough?

So, TIM did fight the Reapers? He did fight the Collectors. He wanted to know what is at the other end of the Omega 4 Portal. Do not take everything he says for granted. Reassuring Shephard in his fear of the Reapers is needed to motivate him to do what he is supposed to do for TIM.

From the first conversation we see of TIM (the prologue, in which he and Miranda deride the Geth as a distraction to the Real Threat) to the first convseration we have with him (before the Collectors were even known, and he expands on his thoughts of the Reapers) throughout the game (in which he intones that the Collectors are just a front for the Reapers) to the end game delimma (that this is a Reaper base we can use against the Reapers) to end-game resolution (that Cerberus will be there to fight the Reapers/you threw away a great tool against the Reapers). The first of which wasn't even aimed at Shepard, but to one of him most trusted agents. Then we have all the effort put against the Reaper's agents. So, words and actions.

Whereas the words and actions indicating he doesn't consider the Reapers a threat are...

Then there's the side material as well, in which we have TIM's own thoughts on the matter... which, surprisingly, are much the same.

There is no clue what so ever how to defeat a full-powered Reaper fleet attack, with or without the base. TIM is the type of character that allies with his strongest enemy if he sees he can't beat him.

Support this claim.

TIM was instrumental in starting and running a human-first group when Humanity was liable to be curbstomped by superior alien races. TIM ran an organization with antagonistic relations with the most powerful players in the galaxy, all of whome outweighed Cerberus manyfold (the Council, the Shadow Broker, the Quarian Flotilla, the Alliance itself). TIM then confronted an entirely unknown threat headon in the Collectors as well, a foe no one could even reach, and with no known avenues until much, much later.

TIM has many flaws. Being a fair-weather Quisling who sides with the apparently strongest isn't one of them.

Maybe his idea is to sacrifice all other races to the Reapers while preserving mankind? Would fit well into his job description.

No, it wouldn't, except in the most distorted and selective interpretation of the word.

[tallinn]

smudboy wrote...

TIM fought the Reapers through the Collectors, right?

Says who? TIM is saying that. Miranda is saying that but eventually stops to believe TIM.

In ME2 TIM plays a game similar to that in ME Redemption: using Shephard as a lure to obtain info about the Collectors. Getting information on their intentions and access to their technology was his final goal. For whatever purpose he needs it remains unclear. The Renegade end dialogue between Shephard and TIM in ME2 shows the doubts one could have on TIM's motives. I find those doubts very reasonable.

If TIM is so afraid of the Reapers and so much convinced of Shephard's important role in defeating them, why does he risks his most valuable asset any time he sends him to a mission by not giving him full information about what to expect? On the other hand if TIM sees Shephard as expandable and worth to be sacrified just to obtain more information on the Collectors what does that mean for his real goals and his evaluation of the situation? Does he takes the Reaper threat as serious as he should?

I don't buy the story that TIM sees a charismatic and powerful leader in Shephard, like it seems to be in the introductory cut scene. He is aware of the Collector's interest in Shephard. For TIM the living Shephard is valuable as a lure.

I still place my bet on TIM/Cerberus becoming something like Saren/Geth-Heretics in ME3.  If I would be TIM I would plan on the Reapers eliminating alien races in the galaxy, leaving looking for a safe place to hide for humans the only remaining problem to achieve galaxy domination afterwards.

[smudboy]

tallinn wrote...

Says who? TIM is saying that. Miranda is saying that but eventually stops to believe TIM.

Says TIM.

No.  You can keep the base and Miranda doesn't leave Cerberus.

In ME2 TIM plays a game similar to that in ME Redemption: using Shephard as a lure to obtain info about the Collectors. Getting information on their intentions and access to their technology was his final goal. For whatever purpose he needs it remains unclear. The Renegade end dialogue between Shephard and TIM in ME2 shows the doubts one could have on TIM's motives. I find those doubts very reasonable.

"It's up to us to stop them."
TIM wants to stop the Reapers.  This is very clear.

If TIM is so afraid of the Reapers and so much convinced of Shephard's important role in defeating them, why does he risks his most valuable asset any time he sends him to a mission by not giving him full information about what to expect?

Because he confident in Shepard's abilities.  Just rewatch that scene after the Disabled Collector Cruiser.  Pretty clear.

On the other hand if TIM sees Shephard as expandable and worth to be sacrified just to obtain more information on the Collectors what does that mean for his real goals and his evaluation of the situation? Does he takes the Reaper threat as serious as he should?

Why would he spend 2 years and 4 billion credits if he thought Shepard was expendable?  He'd just hire any old fellow to do the job.

I don't buy the story that TIM sees a charismatic and powerful leader in Shephard, like it seems to be in the introductory cut scene. He is aware of the Collector's interest in Shephard. For TIM the living Shephard is valuable as a lure.

Well he gives a few reasons.  The fact the plot never realizes them is clearly an issue.

I still place my bet on TIM/Cerberus becoming something like Saren/Geth-Heretics in ME3.  If I would be TIM I would plan on the Reapers eliminating alien races in the galaxy, leaving looking for a safe place to hide for humans the only remaining problem to achieve galaxy domination afterwards.

Good for you.  Nothing to do with the base.

[Spiwerk]

I destroyed the base because... just like Joker says "I don't trust anyone who makes more money than me". =P

[Sviken]

"It's up to us to stop them."
TIM wants to stop the Reapers.  This is very clear.

But it's also pretty clear to me that he has his own agenda.

Because he confident in Shepard's abilities.  Just rewatch that scene after the Disabled Collector Cruiser.  Pretty clear.

That won't do. Shepard isn't immortal after all. He can die at any time.

On the other hand if TIM sees Shephard as expandable and worth to be sacrified just to obtain more information on the Collectors what does that mean for his real goals and his evaluation of the situation? Does he takes the Reaper threat as serious as he should?

Shepard is expandable, but for a VERY high price. Collectors information won't do.

For TIM the living Shephard is valuable as a lure.

Shepard is very important to TIM. He is the only one who can help TIM defeat the Reapers and give him some things in the process (like the Collectors base).

Modifié par Mortis5, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:06 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Mortis5 wrote...

"It's up to us to stop them."
TIM wants to stop the Reapers.  This is very clear.

But it's also pretty clear to me that he has his own agenda.

How does this negate the first?

TIM's agenda can very well include, as he says, fighting the Reapers.

Because he confident in Shepard's abilities.  Just rewatch that scene after the Disabled Collector Cruiser.  Pretty clear.

That won't do. Shepard isn't immortal after all. He can die at any time.

Nothing is permanent or everlasting, everything has risk potential, but we depend on all sorts of things everyday. Cars, police, safety. You can rely on people to accomplish certain things despite risk.

[NYG1991]

It seems to me that keeping the base is a heavy risk

[Phaedon]

NYG1991 wrote...

It seems to me that keeping the base is a heavy risk

Bigger than destroying it, really.

[NYG1991]

I'm kidding. Just making a Jacob reference as no thread is complete without one

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

NYG1991 wrote...

It seems to me that keeping the base is a heavy risk

Bigger than destroying it, really.

And we're back to what, exactly is the risk that outweighs decreasing our chances of beating the Reapers.

[khevan]

NYG1991 wrote...

It seems to me that keeping the base is a heavy risk

But the priiiiiiiiize.....








*sorry, had to complete the joke.  please don't kill me....*

[NYG1991]

Yea I wasn't really making a valid point. Just lightening the mood with a Jacob joke.

[Phaedon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

NYG1991 wrote...

It seems to me that keeping the base is a heavy risk

Bigger than destroying it, really.

And we're back to what, exactly is the risk that outweighs decreasing our chances of beating the Reapers.

Why not ? Some people took the risk to destroy it in order to not risk TIM misusing it, and some other took the risk to save it in order to not take any chances against the Reapers. Both sides have valid arguments. I didn't post that as a fact, but my opinion.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why not what?



Your opinion, I assume, is based around a concrete and reasonable fear that is supported by the game's lore, and not logically circumventable or limited by the facts of the issue.



Right?

[NYG1991]

IMO there's going to be a "cost" and "payoff" to both choices.



Saving the base: shep will have to go back through o-4 relay and fix timmys mess but gets info about reapers that can turn the tide in a battle. So shep will see atrocities commited at the base but will have abilty to save a planet. (not earth but prob a major colony)



destroy the base: Cerberus will still get reaper tech without base as they will still have blueprints and other data. The difference will be the lack of material so Cerberus won't be able to produce anything in time and all us paragons can do is help evacuate a colony as the reaper fleet glasses it.



Either way Theres a payoff as shep gets the tech but the cost is greater in lives while destroying it. But you see Cerberus experiment go wrong by saving it so there ends up being a good and bad that are balanced to varying degrees.



Overall saving the base ends up being the better decision but you'll be criticized for the experiment that you facilitated but paraised for saving the colony



destroying it you'll be praised for helping get as many refugees to safety but criticized for not doing more to help stop the attack

[smudboy]

Mortis5 wrote...
But it's also pretty clear to me that he has his own agenda.

Yes, which is irrelevant, as he himself states, unless the Reapers are dealt with first.

That won't do. Shepard isn't immortal after all. He can die at any time.

But it did and was.  He planned out that Shepard would be able to handle whatever threat/trap the Collectors posed.  He was confident in Shepard's abilities, and knew he had an ace up his sleeve: EDI.  He didn't want to tell Shepard or else they'd tip off the Collectors.  This is very clear in the narrative.  You may not agree with this, and neither do I, but we understand that: 1) TIM knew what he was doing, 2) It was for the good of the mission (to get data), 3) It worked, and 4) Aside from a glib comment by Shepard to the crew, the "crew" (Mordin, Jacob and Miranda) are okay with this.

[Zulu_DFA]

khevan wrote...

NYG1991 wrote...

It seems to me that keeping the base is a heavy risk

But the priiiiiiiiize.....








*sorry, had to complete the joke.  please don't kill me....*

Every time somebody brings up this joke a kitten by name "Jacob" dies. Or used to die, but now there are no more kittens by name "Jacob" left in the world.

[NYG1991]

I always wondered why there wasn't a " this sounds like a trap" dialogue option when Tim tells shep about the collector ship.



I don't blame Tim for not telling I blame shep for not suspecting.



At the same time though. Why would Tim have to worry about tipping off the collectors? The QEC was supposed to be strictly person to person so only he and shep hear what's said.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Elite Midget wrote...

So you believe you can beat the Reapers just fine with just TIM and alienating the other Citadel Species/Authorities? That's a big leap of faith, far bigger than destroying the base if you ask me.

Do you think the other Races will simply accept the power Cerberus has obtained? Let alone consider allying with them? They already fooled themselves about the Reapers in the past. If anything keeping the Base and giving it to Cerberus will push the Citadel Authority to declare Shepard as going completely rogue and aiding a Terrorist Organization to disrupt Galatic Stability.

The public will believe them because it's easier to believe that than the Reapers.

As for the Alliance... The Alliance would never support the power TIM has obtained or risk being publicly exposed as helping TIM. Nor would TIM ever share the technology with the Alliance or any Citadel Species for that matter.

If anything, the Citadel Races would immediatly send their forces out to destroy Cerberus in an attempt to obtain the Base for themselves. Thus leading to more senseless death from the fighting as well as the deaths hat will follow from messing with intact Reaper Tech.

Like it or not, Cerberus will be a part of the war.  To be united, they'd need to be working toward this too.

Remember again that presently NO ONE ELSE is preparing or even acknowledging the Reapers.  Cerberus, if nothing else, provides some hope of countering the Reaper's power and technology.

The other races don't even know you're alive and the Base wouldn't make much (if any) difference in their opinion.  If anything you'd seem like a contradiction to them destroying it.  I could see an alien asking:

"So you were willing to work with Cerberus to stop the human colonies but when it comes to saving the rest of us you blew up the biggest capture opportunity without giving us a chance to study it?"

They'd have to accept Cerberus if they ever wanted to unite... especially with you.  Keeping or destroying the base doesn't really change that.  Could say you took their ship, AI, and crew members all while TIM was just "okay" with it... but other races would likely suspect you're lying and still working with Cerberus.

[Jagri]

Hold on a moment! During the arguements made often a focus point is weather the Collectors would have access to advance technology needed to face the Reapers. The Pro Base supports the theory that they would be outfitted with it cause they were in mind and body slaves to the Reapers. Yet if that is the case there ship was ripped to pieces by a Thanix Cannon.



So despite any claims its logical to conclude that the Thanix Cannon would work against the Reapers or the Collectors didn't have any technology that would give the galaxy a edge against the Reaper threat. I mean why fully entrust the Collectors with there technology only in there base but not outfit there vessel as well?

[RiouHotaru]

Ieldra2 wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
There's reason for that: it is illogical to simply assume that you don't need a technological breakthrough to win, or that while accepting you do need it, to assume that you are as likely to get that breakthrough without more samples of Reaper technology than without them. That's a prime example of wishful thinking, which would actually be excusable in the light of Cerberus' goals if the consequences of being wrong weren't so final.

It is also illogical to assume that the base must contain the only way to win.

We don't assume that. We only say that we cannot afford to assume the opposite. Which I maintain - see the risk analysis.

It is also illogical to assume that the base will not still be the big (or even bigger) threat it was before, even under Cerberus attempting to controll it. Those reapers are sneaky you know.

It is illogical to assume that a great technological resource is better off in the hands of an ally - even an untrustworthy one - than an enemy determined to exterminate my species? I fail to see the failure of logic here.

Edit:
However, I do admit to one assumption: I assume that Reaper technology can be understood by a human mind. Given what has already been done with the Thanix cannon and EDI, I think I have grounds to be optimistic.

Yes, but those technologies took years to produce and even then, Garrus had to use his "contacts" to get access to the Thanix Cannon blueprint.

Also Iedra2, base destroyers DO use your risk management, we simply come to a different conclusion.  We don't feel that it's logical to give the base to TIM because it might cause  a set-back later in our effort, and again, quite frankly we don't trust the man.  We're using the same process you are, our answer is just different.