2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Elite Midget]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Like it or not, Cerberus will be a part of the war.  To be united, they'd need to be working toward this too.

Remember again that presently NO ONE ELSE is preparing or even acknowledging the Reapers.  Cerberus, if nothing else, provides some hope of countering the Reaper's power and technology.

The other races don't even know you're alive and the Base wouldn't make much (if any) difference in their opinion.  If anything you'd seem like a contradiction to them destroying it.  I could see an alien asking:

"So you were willing to work with Cerberus to stop the human colonies but when it comes to saving the rest of us you blew up the biggest capture opportunity without giving us a chance to study it?"

They'd have to accept Cerberus if they ever wanted to unite... especially with you.  Keeping or destroying the base doesn't really change that.  Could say you took their ship, AI, and crew members all while TIM was just "okay" with it... but other races would likely suspect you're lying and still working with Cerberus.

Ummm... Hackett seems to not be all that ignorant to the Reapers or the such. In fact, we aren't ever told on Humanity's true stance on the Reaper subject. Andersan and Hackett are very high up on the command chain and they know the threats involved. Hell, I doubt humanity would just ignore what the fought on the Citadel and just take the Councils word for it.

Doesn't mean Cerberus will actually be contributing all that much. Where was Cerberus in ME1? Doing inhumamne experiments, ignoring Saren(If they weren't already feeding him tech and vice versa), and pretending that the Geth weren't their problem. The Galaxy was in danger than and TIM took a wait and see approach. If anything, TIM most likely was hopng to pick up the scraps and push humanity as the dominiant authority in the Universe.

So yeah, Cerberus will be in the war but from past experiences I doubt they will contribute all that much outside of sending Shepard and the Normandy. Instead they'll take a wait and see approach again while doing inhumane tests, again, while enjoying the view. Face it, Cerberus doesn't have the manpower to contribute the forces for a war. They're strictly information and inhumane research. Than there's the fact that Cerberus HATES sharing information with anyone. If anything what information they do obtain they'll either give Shepard to use as a Deus Ex Machina device or they'll keep it for themselves for their goal of human supremancy.

It fits well in TIMs character to have the other factions/races to contribute everything to fighting the Reapers while he sits back and watches Shepard do his/her thing.

I mean, after all... Where was Cerberus, outside Shepard and his crew, when dealing with the Collectors? I'll tell you. Doing more inhumane experiments, taking a wait and see approach, witholding data(From other factions and Shepard him/herself), and sending Shepard a new toy and leaving the rest to him/her. Than wen Shepard succeeds TIM appears and wants to snatch anything he can that will impower Cerberus.


Ummm...

The other Races 'DO' know you are alive. Did you play ME2? You went to the Krogan Homeworld, Omega(Aria even knew of you before you even stepped foot on Omega), The Prison Station, The Shadow Broker, The Citadel(Hell, even a Human Council knows you exist and refuses to meet you. Udina wasen't all that shocked that you were alive either and was just angry that he couldn't shoo you away fast enough)(Not to mention all the commercials, AI's, or Shopkeepers you meet as well), contacted by the Alliance(Some even wanted to interrogate you for siding with Cerberus), Illium, The Migrant Fleet, and many other instances of meeting with other species and persons of importance.

Depending on what you did in ME2 will defiantly help in getting allies department. Though giving Cerberus something to abuse is not the same as using their toys. I really doubt the Quarians will ever consider an Alliance with Cerberus. In fact, no Alien race would because that would be politicial suicide. So nothing has changed. Cerberus, because of their views and lack of military manpower,  would remain in the shadows and watch the other races band together while maybe giving Shepard any tech they come by. Maybe because TIM loves holding out on Shepard.

Not to mention that the Cerberus tech isn't always that great. For example, shipbuilding. With an unlimited bugdet, black market sources, and all the Researchers/Engineers one could want their 'innovations' and upgrades for the Normandy are immediatly outclassed by tech created by the other races in the Universe. Thus Cerberus benefitting from the Collector Base or not isn't then Be All or End All situation.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Barquiel wrote...

I am really curious how he came to that conclusion.

Feron was a SB agent, TIM recruited him to assist Liara
Feron helps Liara to recover Shepards body - the SB captures him
Liara asks Miranda if TIM plans to rescue Feron, Miranda says "no"
Liara says she'll do it herself
.
ME2
TIM: Liara works for the SB, she can't be trusted (...and she never tried very hard to conceal the fact that she wants to kill the SB)

TIM:  "She's on Illium.  My sources say she's working for the Shadowbroker... if so she can't be trusted."

There's still no contradiction when you consider the Feron events happened 2 years ago.

That's not claiming she's working for the Shadowbroker and it's obvious Shepard would be interested in finding out more regarding that.  However, still evidence does suggest fishy things as well as her new evil-ish attitude.

[Elite Midget]

Her attitude isn't evil-ish, it's just being cold and not letting people walk all over her anymore.

Cerberus is the definition of evil-ish... Inhumane experiments, rogue cells(Ironically, cells are only considered Rogue after the Citadel races or the Alliance find out about them. If no one else knows but Cerberus than it's business as usual or another failure), and denying everything bad that happens when Cerberus touches something.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:52 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Elite Midget wrote...
Ummm... Hackett seems to not be all that ignorant to the Reapers or the such. In fact, we aren't ever told on Humanity's true stance on the Reaper subject. Andersan and Hackett are very high up on the command chain and they know the threats involved. Hell, I doubt humanity would just ignore what the fought on the Citadel and just take the Councils word for it.

Doesn't mean Cerberus will actually be contributing all that much. Where was Cerberus in ME1? Doing inhumamne experiments, ignoring Saren(If they weren't already feeding him tech and vice versa), and pretending that the Geth weren't their problem. The Galaxy was in danger than and TIM took a wait and see approach. If anything, TIM most likely was hopng to pick up the scraps and push humanity as the dominiant authority in the Universe.

So yeah, Cerberus will be in the war but from past experiences I doubt they will contribute all that much outside of sending Shepard and the Normandy. Instead they'll take a wait and see approach again while doing inhumane tests, again, while enjoying the view. Face it, Cerberus doesn't have the manpower to contribute the forces for a war. They're strictly information and inhumane research. Than there's the fact that Cerberus HATES sharing information with anyone. If anything what information they do obtain they'll either give Shepard to use as a Deus Ex Machina device or they'll keep it for themselves for their goal of human supremancy.

It fits well in TIMs character to have the other factions/races to contribute everything to fighting the Reapers while he sits back and watches Shepard do his/her thing.

I mean, after all... Where was Cerberus, outside Shepard and his crew, when dealing with the Collectors? I'll tell you. Doing more inhumane experiments, taking a wait and see approach, witholding data(From other factions and Shepard him/herself), and sending Shepard a new toy and leaving the rest to him/her. Than wen Shepard succeeds TIM appears and wants to snatch anything he can that will impower Cerberus.


Ummm...

The other Races 'DO' know you are alive. Did you play ME2? You went to the Krogan Homeworld, Omega(Aria even knew of you before you even stepped foot on Omega), The Prison Station, The Shadow Broker, The Citadel(Hell, even a Human Council knows you exist and refuses to meet you. Udina wasen't all that shocked that you were alive either and was just angry that he couldn't shoo you away fast enough)(Not to mention all the commercials, AI's, or Shopkeepers you meet as well), contacted by the Alliance(Some even wanted to interrogate you for siding with Cerberus), Illium, The Migrant Fleet, and many other instances of meeting with other species and persons of importance.

Depending on what you did in ME2 will defiantly help in getting allies department. Though giving Cerberus something to abuse is not the same as using their toys. I really doubt the Quarians will ever consider an Alliance with Cerberus. In fact, no Alien race would because that would be politicial suicide. So nothing has changed. Cerberus, because of their views and lack of military manpower,  would remain in the shadows and watch the other races band together while maybe giving Shepard any tech they come by. Maybe because TIM loves holding out on Shepard.

Not to mention that the Cerberus tech isn't always that great. For example, shipbuilding. With an unlimited bugdet, black market sources, and all the Researchers/Engineers one could want their 'innovations' and upgrades for the Normandy are immediatly outclassed by tech created by the other races in the Universe. Thus Cerberus benefitting from the Collector Base or not isn't then Be All or End All situation.

Anderson makes it pretty clear that he's the only one that believes the Reaper threat is real... and everyone else ignores him.

Yes I played ME2, on the news the Council denies you're alive while "Shepard sightings" are only a rumor at this point.

In ME1, Cerberus didn't really know what was going on, it's documented that upon knowing TIM got immediately involved.

No one's tech is all that great against the Reapers thusfar.  Which is why more study and preparation is a good idea.  And your team is a Cerberus team... you can even ask them ~"why they joined Cerberus".  Only a few did it to follow you.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Elite Midget wrote...

Her attitude isn't evil-ish, it's just being cold and not letting people walk all over her anymore.

Cerberus is the definition of evil-ish... Inhumane experiments, rogue cells(Ironically, cells are only considered Rogue after the Citadel races or the Alliance find out about them. If no one else knows but Cerberus than it's business as usual or another failure), and denying everything bad that happens when Cerberus touches something.

She wasn't above killing innocent people either.  Neither is Shepard depending on the choices you make.  The Alliance and Council both have people and groups going Rogue, it doesn't mean the groups themselves are to blame.

Heck, Miranda says Shepard would fit in well there given what he did against Sovereign...  Miranda also notes that too many people join because of xenophobia (which could explain why things go wrong with them at times).  Those are moot points when looking at what Cerberus actually does.

Again though, I'm not saying they're saints, but factually speaking, a number of evil things they're accused of doing isn't the fault or order of Cerberus. 

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:05 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why not what?

Your opinion, I assume, is based around a concrete and reasonable fear that is supported by the game's lore, and not logically circumventable or limited by the facts of the issue.

Right?

I have been using facts for my posts, please check the 20 last pages.
I don't get what you are trying to say, that anyone who destroyed the base did it because they didn't use logic ? K. 

I didn't contest that, though we certainly disagree as to what the facts entail.

I was making a strike against nebulous generalizations.

[NYG1991]

I've never really thought of Cerberus as good or evil. I kinda like the idea of the organization that doesn't answer to gov't officials or talking head politicians. I just don't like the way Tim operates it. He's too lax with oversight of his own people and I don't like the idea of cells being stricly goal oriented. If the oppurtunity arises my shep will gladly "relieve" him of his command via revenant or widow and run things himself.



There would be liara shadow broker and TIM shepard.

[Casuist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

No relevant information was withheld from Shepard regarding her.  She was "suspected" of working with the Shadowbroker... which correlates with her information-brokering career and new evil-ish attitude.

You are REALLY stretching on this.

She's an information broker! All information brokers must be working for the SB!
She threatened someone who owed her money!She'es clearly taken up a cause directly the opposite of what she risked her life for before!

TIM: Shepard, Liara rescued you from the shadow broker but a friend of hers was captured and she swore to recover him. But who knows... it's been two years. Anything can happen to a person in that time. In fact, it's a distinct possibility that, over those two years by random chance she's switched sides.

Don't pretend that Cerberus and TIM are not "extreme."

Never have, only pointed to the fact that they aren't as extreme as they're made out to be.  Again, some of the biggest offenses truly weren't the fault of Cerberus.  You can either acknowledge that or shrug at it. 

..and, again, even in the best possible light Cerberus and TIM have committed equally heinous offenses. I'm not arguing Overlord and Pragia one way or the other- they don't matter. They ARE as "extreme" as that, and you're going to have to displace a helluva lot more blame to claim that they've gotten a bum rap.

Yes, I can trust that his need to manipulate shepard may someday get shepard killed, and that the death may have been avoidable.

First of all though, Shepard was already dead before TIM. 

Not  particularly good reason to get him killed again, is it?

Secondly, you're in the most danger in being a traitor to Cerberus.  If anything, death by Cerberus is more avoidable staying close and taking him out yourself instead of burning the bridge to a point where Cerberus sees you as a liability to them.

Who said anything about doing anything of the sort? 

If they were "the" priority over TIM, then keeping the base for the knowledge it can gain would be a good idea.  If, however, TIM having the base is too dangerous (even in the face of the Reaper threat), then not letting TIM have the base takes priority.

Run, run running in circles. If TIM having the base impedes fighting the reapers, letting him have the base is not a good idea. L<et's create a nice false choice: If having the base unequivocally helped the cause against the reapers at the price of a long term risk of empowering TIM (helps before invasion, hurts after invasion), all my shepards would keep it (well, maybe not one of them). Hurts before, hurts after: no base. Simple as that, really.

During the fight against the Collectors, Cerberus studied the seeker swarms and developed a counter-measure to them in small numbers.

For the record: Mordin did that.

[Casuist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

She wasn't above killing innocent people either. 

Based on what, exactly?

Again though, I'm not saying they're saints, but factually speaking, a number of evil things they're accused of doing isn't the fault or order of Cerberus. 

But those equivalently evil things? Let's just not talk about those. que sera sera.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

Hold on a moment! During the arguements made often a focus point is weather the Collectors would have access to advance technology needed to face the Reapers. The Pro Base supports the theory that they would be outfitted with it cause they were in mind and body slaves to the Reapers. Yet if that is the case there ship was ripped to pieces by a Thanix Cannon.

So despite any claims its logical to conclude that the Thanix Cannon would work against the Reapers or the Collectors didn't have any technology that would give the galaxy a edge against the Reaper threat. I mean why fully entrust the Collectors with there technology only in there base but not outfit there vessel as well?

The technology the Collectors use is mixed: there is the 'Collector' level of technology, which they normally use, barter with, and use, which is carefully kept ~ ten years in advance. Collectors are outfitted this way, in part, to keep their status as 'cutting edge galactic', as opposed to 'already have tech hundreds of years in advance'... which would attract more notice to a very, very reclusive race. They never needed the tech equiped, and it would even be counterproductive.

By the time Sovereign was destroyed, it could well have already been too late to do a overhaul, for the same reasons they couldn't build another ship. The either had to, or chose to, go ahead and build a Reaper by goo, and for the most part didn't need Reaper tech on the Collector ship for that either.

[Elite Midget]

Andersan obviously was overexageratting since Hackett alone contradicts him. Most likely Andersan means the Politicians, at least those at the top of the food chain, don't believe him because they charish their careers too much.



That's the news. I also like how you ignored every other example I put out the contradicts your statement that no one knows that Shepard is alive. In fact, many people know and you even meet with the Leaders of some factions.



ME1 didn't happen in a single day and with how 'fast' TIM gets info in ME2 I hightly doubt he was ignorant on anything. He just choose to ignore it and instead continued the inhumane experiments.



Cerberus has messed with Reaper Tech, that has ended up going active and causing cells to fail, and yet in 2 years time their tech was still inferior to the Alien Tech in use already. TIM was studying that dead Reaper for who knows how long and their top of the line tech is pretty pathetic.



The Thanix Cannon has proven 'very' effective against Reaper tech.



As for the crew... They sound like low ranking brass that don't know the full working of everything or the bigger picture. Thus they feel like nothing is getting done and thus join a known TERRORIST organization.



If nothing was truely being done than Andersan wouldn't be pushing or trying. I doubt all of humanity refuses to listen to Andersan. If that was the case than he wouldn't have remained so high up as he has. There are people listening but they can't do much when there are Politicians, like Udina, that stonewall everything to protect their careers.

[Dean_the_Young]

When is it ever given that Cerberus tech is inferior to alien tech in general, anymore than any other alien species or group? Different species have different strengths, but that doesn't mean failing to be best in everything is a sign of regression: who on the Council, for example, matches Humanity's stealth abilities with the Normandy stealth frigate, a inspiration child of Cerberus? The Salarians didn't, and the Turians didn't invent the concept. Which species, bar possibly the geth, matches the AI warfare capabilities of EDI?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:56 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Casuist wrote...

You are REALLY stretching on this.

She's an information broker! All information brokers must be working for the SB!
She threatened someone who owed her money!She'es clearly taken up a cause directly the opposite of what she risked her life for before!

TIM: Shepard, Liara rescued you from the shadow broker but a friend of hers was captured and she swore to recover him. But who knows... it's been two years. Anything can happen to a person in that time. In fact, it's a distinct possibility that, over those two years by random chance she's switched sides.

Stretching on this?  lol, no.  Again, TIM never said Liara was working for the Shadowbroker, just what his sources are saying about her.  His comment welcomed an investigation by Shepard... even telling him where she was.  Combine that with the fact that Liara's assistant was a traitor to her and some pieces could come together.  Feron worked for the Shadowbroker at the time Liara hired him.  He became a traitor over time and began working with Liara and Cerberus to take Shepard's body.  Feron later got captured, she swore revenge... but after 2 years, she's an information broker threatening contacts and things like that.  It's entirely plausable that she resorted to doing things for the Shadowbroker or related staff to get intel or contacts.  Asari are also known not to hold too closely to relationships due to their much longer lifespans...    

..and, again, even in the best possible light Cerberus and TIM have committed equally heinous offenses. I'm not arguing Overlord and Pragia one way or the other- they don't matter. They ARE as "extreme" as that, and you're going to have to displace a helluva lot more blame to claim that they've gotten a bum rap.

Some examples would be nice regarding that.  Taking some of their biggest offenses off the grid can't help but put them in a nicer light than they were originally in.  Doesn't mean they're saints now, no one argues that.

Not  particularly good reason to get him killed again, is it?

Definitely not... so you'd have to really think that he'd have a different reason for doing what he does than "trying to kill you" as it counters everything he's done up to that point.

Who said anything about doing anything of the sort?

You have the option if you destroy the base. 

Run, run running in circles. If TIM having the base impedes fighting the reapers, letting him have the base is not a good idea. L<et's create a nice false choice: If having the base unequivocally helped the cause against the reapers at the price of a long term risk of empowering TIM (helps before invasion, hurts after invasion), all my shepards would keep it (well, maybe not one of them). Hurts before, hurts after: no base. Simple as that, really.

It's not a circle, it's actually a surprisingly simple set of 2 choices.  You either:
 
Feel TIM with the base can be dealt with easier than dealing with the Reapers without the base.

or

Feel the Reapers without the base can be dealt with easier than dealing with TIM once he has the base.

During the fight against the Collectors, Cerberus studied the seeker swarms and developed a counter-measure to them in small numbers.

For the record: Mordin did that.

As part of Cerberus.  Even when working for Cerberus, everyone's an individual.  Miranda Lawson, even though part of Cerberus, is still Miranda Lawson.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:05 .

[Jagri]

Thanix Cannon>Collector's Cruiser: Fact

Now the issue is would a vessel designed to help safe guard a base have technology inferior to what is available to the base? (Like for example guarding a M1A2 Abrams tank factory with a old WWII Sherman tank.) Does that seem all that logical to anyone? No I would think the Collector Cruiser would have the capabilities the base would be able to produce. If thats the case then the technology to be gained from the base isn't even close to the Reaper tech displayed. If it is the Thanix Cannon has proven to defeat it.

Modifié par Jagri, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:07 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

But those equivalently evil things? Let's just not talk about those. que sera sera.

No by all means lets talk about them.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:14 .

[lovgreno]

Jagri: Well the base was also producing a reaper. If that can be usefull, especialy considering the very high risks with the base, well that remains to be seen.

Modifié par lovgreno, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:17 .

[Jagri]

A human reaper >.< The last Reaper if produced there was about 50,000 years ago. So wouldn't you have something of Reaper strength to protect reaper factory?

Modifié par Jagri, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:23 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Jagri wrote...

A human reaper >.< The last Reaper if produced there was about 50,000 years ago. So wouldn't you have something of Reaper strength to protect reaper factory?

It was protected by its position beyond the Omega4 relay.  Shepard's ship was the only one to survive entry (barely depending on your choices) and even then, required a Reaper IFF.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:29 .

[General User]

The Reapers are nothing if not egotistical. Failing to take basic, obvious security precautions because they are obsessed with their own superiority is very much in keeping with their character.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

Thanix Cannon>Collector's Cruiser: Fact

Now the issue is would a vessel designed to help safe guard a base have technology inferior to what is available to the base? (Like for example guarding a M1A2 Abrams tank factory with a old WWII Sherman tank.) Does that seem all that logical to anyone? No I would think the Collector Cruiser would have the capabilities the base would be able to produce. If thats the case then the technology to be gained from the base isn't even close to the Reaper tech displayed. If it is the Thanix Cannon has proven to defeat it.

Boulder> jeep, but that doesn't make a trbuchet better than a car. Destroying stuff is easy: it doesn't correspond to advancement except in the most broad categories.

Given that a large part of the Collector disguise was boasting the technology of a WW2 Sherman, why would they use an Abrams beforehand? 

Afterhand, too late to change, same as too late to fortify, to late to make more advances... and they never had any other trouble with the Collector Cruiser beforehand either, so it's not like they were strugling with what they had on hand.

[Jagri]

They had one ship to defend a station with no defenses other then being located in a remote region. The reasoning and logic behind supplying a inferior defender to protect something so advance is so mind blogging stupid that the Reapers should never have been successful in there ambitions before now.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Jagri wrote...

They had one ship to defend a station with no defenses other then being located in a remote region. The reasoning and logic behind supplying a inferior defender to protect something so advance is so mind blogging stupid that the Reapers should never have been successful in there ambitions before now.

Shepard's ship was the only one to survive entry (and barely... depending on your choices) and even then, required a Reaper IFF.  The Occulus drones also would've torn a new one into a surviving ship that was otherwise unprepared.... assuming they survived the debri field.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

A human reaper >.< The last Reaper if produced there was about 50,000 years ago. So wouldn't you have something of Reaper strength to protect reaper factory?

Sure. And it did.

No one's managed to destroy a mass relay yet, after all.

[DPSSOC]

Elite Midget wrote...
Andersan obviously was overexageratting since Hackett alone contradicts him. Most likely Andersan means the Politicians, at least those at the top of the food chain, don't believe him because they charish their careers too much.

So we have Anderson and Hackett, two guys neither of which are capable of making a unilateral choice to take action.  Believe it or not you do have to sell politicians on going to war, if they don't buy it the military can't just up and do what they want (well they can but that's referred to as a coup.)

That's the news. I also like how you ignored every other example I put out the contradicts your statement that no one knows that Shepard is alive. In fact, many people know and you even meet with the Leaders of some factions.

Elite Midget wrote...
ME1 didn't happen in a single day and with how 'fast' TIM gets info in ME2 I hightly doubt he was ignorant on anything. He just choose to ignore it and instead continued the inhumane experiments.

6 people knew about the Reapers before the battle of the Citadel, The Councilors, Anderson, Udina, and Shepard.  Prior to that Saren and the Geth were just that, Saren and the Geth, not a galactic level threat and one that was being dealt with.  There was no reason for TIM to become involved with, or even pay close attention to, the events of ME1.  After Sovereign reveals himself at the Battle of the Citadel TIM takes interest and starts back tracking through all the data that Cerberus had gathered and try and piece together the puzzle.  Saren didn't get his attention, a rogue turian with a grudge against humanity isn't all that special, Sovereign did and that is when he chose to get involved.

Elite Midget wrote...
As for the crew... They sound like low ranking brass that don't know the full working of everything or the bigger picture. Thus they feel like nothing is getting done and thus join a known TERRORIST organization.

 
Would people stop throwing around that word.  Cerberus is not a terrorist organization, no shadowy organization can be as making people terrified of your group is counter-productive to keeping said group a secret.  Stop using that word, they are a rogue paramilitary organization with aspirations for human domination.