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[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

The Reapers are nothing if not egotistical. Failing to take basic, obvious security precautions because they are obsessed with their own superiority is very much in keeping with their character.

Well justified confidence by countless repititions and extremely effective safeguards do by and large eliminate the need for redundancy.

Most of those basic, obvious security precautions really didn't have much point for the Collector Base, because of just how effective the Omega 4/debris/oculus barrier field was was.

The fall of the Collectors wasn't really due to arrogance. It was a reasonably designed system being used for something it was never intended for, and then failing simply because it wasn't good enough. There isn't a single 'oh, we were so arrogant we decided against a reasonable choice' moment for the Reapers: there's simply some 'this was a good decision at the time, and now it isn't so good'. Sometimes that's just how it goes.

[Casuist]

Stretching on this?  lol, no.  Again, TIM never said Liara was working for the Shadowbroker, just what his sources are saying about her. 

Remember what I said about splitting hairs? There's no indication TIM presents of any such connection... and if all he has to say is that flimsy then his NOT mentioning her past history against the Shaodw Broker is indeed withholding relevant information. You're suggesting it's plausible for her to have drastically changed sides because "it's been two years... and.... well... asari lifespans are so long." Yes, using this implausible setup to defend TIM is "stretching."

But, in your defense, you've convinced me to punch the next concierge I see. Information brokers are all part of an interstellar yahg plot. 

Some examples would be nice regarding that.  Taking some of their biggest offenses off the grid can't help but put them in a nicer light than they were originally in.  Doesn't mean they're saints now, no one argues that.

Some reading back to when they've been repeated ad infinitum would be nice.

Akuze
Colony of the Dead
ME: Ascension
See masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_Broker_Dossiers/Cerberus for examples of assassination/sabotage
Kahoku and his marines...

Definitely not... so you'd have to really think that he'd have a different reason for doing what he does than "trying to kill you" as it counters everything he's done up to that point.

Shepard lies dead, the Reapers are invading, humanity is doomed.
TIM: um, oops.

How many times are you going to make me point out that I am not claiming TIM is trying to kill Shepard in the trap, but that his behavior is likely to stupidly, moronically result in that end?

Who said anything about doing anything of the sort?

You have the option if you destroy the base. 

The worst you can say is "I'm doing what I think is best. Get behind me or get out of the way." If you think that will result in Cerberus actively working to take down Shepard- I disagree.

It's not a circle, it's actually a surprisingly simple set of 2 choices.  You either:
 
Feel the Reapers can be dealt with easier with TIM having the base

or

Feel the Reapers can be dealt with easier with TIM not having the base

FIXED

As part of Cerberus.  Even when working for Cerberus, everyone's an individual.  Miranda Lawson, even though part of Cerberus, is still Miranda Lawson.

Mordin is never a part of Cerberus. He works with shepard (and is specifically recruited by shepard) for the sake of combating the collector threat. While he may develop some personal loyalty to Shepard. Miranda is a member of Cerberus, Mordin never is.

[Arijharn]

Jagri, you're conveniently forgetting the fact that up to now no one has lived to report back about the O-4 relay. Remember that some people believe that it's the home of an utopian paradise.



The Collector 'homeworld' depends on secrecy for it's protection, not on gleaming and amassed defenses. The Collector 'homeworld' is secure in the sense that it's above suspicion, it's not like Earth in which everyone knows it's there and thus it needs to be protected at Mass Relay chokepoints with mass fire power.

[Jagri]

Thanix cannon was from pieces, concept, and Turian enginnering. Not like they put it together exclusively from Reaper parts. Still the whole concept isn't logical. Even if you have the advanage of being in a remote position with one point of entry you don't weaken the defensive position with inferior weapons and tech. Fact given the art of war you would have your strongest asset defending that one entry point to hold back the enemy if they should arrive. One spare Reaper to protect vital information is the only logical conclusion unless there isn't vital information there at all.

Modifié par Jagri, 14 octobre 2010 - 12:14 .

[Arijharn]

But the Collector's were designed to be 'above suspicion.' Them mass harvesting anyone isn't their standard mo. They aren't a 'force' and more like tech savvy thieves.



They aren't supposed to be using Reaper technology because they aren't Reapers. What they are, however is a tech savvy race whose current technological expertise is about 10 years (or so) above current galactic standard. That's their claim for fame... when people even know about them in the first place.



You're thinking too symetrical I believe, thinking only about mass standing armies when we know that the Collector's aren't set up like that (at least, in their dealings with sapients beforehand).

[Jagri]

I do base my views on that the Reapers are a race that only knows of war and rest. That having wiped out all life in the galaxy through several cycles they would know a trick or two.

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...

I do wonder how the Reapers managed to neglect one of their defeated brethren for 37 million years. I'm pretty sure the United States would never make that mistake if it could help it. You lose a state of the art air craft you destroy the debris so the enemy can't capture it and study it.

You'd think the Reapers would know when of them gets destroyed and they'd locate the body and dispose of it. Then again there seems to be a lot of evidence they've left lying around. Of-course the galaxy is big, really REALLY big.

Reapers are idiots. Fact. Or simply don't know what a roll-call is.

But that's actually what bothers me about the Normandy crash site: why didn't the Alliance bomb it to destroy the pieces of the stealth tech?

The only answer I can come up with: they have been relying on Cerberus to monitor the possible activity there. Like they were curious: "Who'll go after it, Turians, or Salarians, or Batarians?" That's how TIM learnt abouth the Shadow Broker sending the Blue Suns there after Shepard's body. He was watching and waiting.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 octobre 2010 - 12:54 .

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

General User wrote...

The Reapers are nothing if not egotistical. Failing to take basic, obvious security precautions because they are obsessed with their own superiority is very much in keeping with their character.

Well justified confidence by countless repititions and extremely effective safeguards do by and large eliminate the need for redundancy.

Most of those basic, obvious security precautions really didn't have much point for the Collector Base, because of just how effective the Omega 4/debris/oculus barrier field was was.

The fall of the Collectors wasn't really due to arrogance. It was a reasonably designed system being used for something it was never intended for, and then failing simply because it wasn't good enough. There isn't a single 'oh, we were so arrogant we decided against a reasonable choice' moment for the Reapers: there's simply some 'this was a good decision at the time, and now it isn't so good'. Sometimes that's just how it goes.

In the Reapers defense, the CB defenses had neutralized all comers for who knows how long. If longevity and effectiveness of a system are reasonable standards to judge it by, then the CB defenses were arguably the best designed system in the know universe. 
 
I’d only stop short of calling it truly well-designed because the “impenetrable” nature of the Ω4 relay constitutes what is largely a single point of failure. Once that was overcome CB defenses were a relatively weak, hastily thrown together affair. That the Reapers could make such an oversight is understandable, even expected (all the more so given their cultural predispositions), just not excusable.
 
I say the Reapers had their “hubris” moment at the Battle of the Citadel. The Citadel and Alliance fleets couldn’t put a dent in Sovereign. After Shepard killed Saren, and retook the Presidium tower, Sovereign couldn’t win without destroying his objective. He could just as easily cut his losses, admitted defeat and withdrawn intact, but his pride wouldn’t let him.  Instead, enraged and certain he could never be defeated, he possessed Saren, and the rest is history.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

Thanix cannon was from pieces, concept, and Turian enginnering. Not like they put it together exclusively from Reaper parts.

Since when did something have to be made from Reaper parts to be Reaper technology. It's tech-no-lo-gy. Not magic.

Jangri, the Thannix is a miniaturized version of Sovereign's main gun. That means the theory, principals, and means of how it works are the same, except scaled down. That's about as close to copying technology as you can get.

Still the whole concept isn't logical. Even if you have the advanage of being in a remote position with one point of entry you don't weaken the defensive position with inferior weapons and tech. Fact given the art of war you would have your strongest asset defending that one entry point to hold back the enemy if they should arrive. One spare Reaper to protect vital information is the only logical conclusion unless there isn't vital information there at all.

I have a strong suspicion you wouldn't consider most military manners logical. I mean, I can think of three different maxims from the Art of War that would counter your assertion of what the Art of War would support: the cost of prolonged deployments (aka, why the Reapers even just left only one Reaper behind in the first place, rather than all hide behind the Omega 4 relay), consolidation of force (keeping Reapers together unless need be to separate, with the mission-critical exception of Sovereign), and overcompensation of defenses on irrelevant positions (adding a Reaper to defend a location that, until Sovereign's destruction, did not matter in the Reaper's plans for sucess, because not only was it effectively unassaultable, it's loss merely meant it would be rebuilt).

You're also assuming that, for much of the time upto the point it was destroyed, Sovereign wasn't in part guarding the Collector base.


Of course, it's a moot point because the Omega 4 relay isn't even an entry point in the military sense: it's functionally a wall to everyone but the Reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

I do base my views on that the Reapers are a race that only knows of war and rest. That having wiped out all life in the galaxy through several cycles they would know a trick or two.

Even the Spartans were ground into dust.

Being good at war does not make you infallible, or mean that you have a contingency to reverse every defeat.

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...
In the Reapers defense, the CB defenses had neutralized all comers for who knows how long. If longevity and effectiveness of a system are reasonable standards to judge it by, then the CB defenses were arguably the best designed system in the know universe. 
 
I’d only stop short of calling it truly well-designed because the “impenetrable” nature of the Ω4 relay constitutes what is largely a single point of failure. Once that was overcome CB defenses were a relatively weak, hastily thrown together affair. That the Reapers could make such an oversight is understandable, even expected (all the more so given their cultural predispositions), just not excusable.

Well, the Reapers themselves aren't excusable, but we need remember, again, that the Collectors aren't a military force. A well defended science base remains just that: a science base. It doesn't need to be a fortress, so why make one?

Recall that the only reason the single point of failure only was exploitable because of an entirely different epic chain of events beyond the Reapers control, ie the Prothean sabatoge and Shepard breaking the cycle, almost certainly for the first time (given Sovereign's intent to replace the Keepers with Geth upon discovering the Keeper change). That was the critical failure that gave the galaxy a chance (not an assurance) to learn about Sovereign and the Reapers, and its only because of their defeat of Sovereign, again never an assurance, that the Collectors even gave reason to draw notice. And after that, it still required breaking a solid trap and then finding a long-lost Reaper not uncovered by hundreds/thousands of other species before Shepard could cross the Omega 4 relay... after the IFF itself acted against the Normandy, and only a crippled man unshackling an AI saved the IFF and the mission.

So, yes. The base defense was a hasty affair... but for entirely reasonable reasons, resulting from a chain of extremely unlikely, unreasonable and unlogical predictions that the Reapers really can't be blamed for not making.
 

I say the Reapers had their “hubris” moment at the Battle of the Citadel. The Citadel and Alliance fleets couldn’t put a dent in Sovereign. After Shepard killed Saren, and retook the Presidium tower, Sovereign couldn’t win without destroying his objective. He could just as easily cut his losses, admitted defeat and withdrawn intact, but his pride wouldn’t let him.  Instead, enraged and certain he could never be defeated, he possessed Saren, and the rest is history.

From Vigil's file, it's debatable if Sovereign needed Saren to re-take control of the station at all, as opposed to retaking it faster. Interpreting it as as the second, as Vigil's says it's a time-limited advantage even after Shepard has already occupied the Citadel, the implication becomes that Sovereign's action had as much to do with need as anything else.

Sovereign itself could be destroyed by fleets: this is what gave Sovereign pause for centuries, centuries which let Citadel fleets grow in number and power. It can very well be that Sovereign calculated its chances of simply killing the fleets and take time, judged it worse than trying to kill Shepard and opening the Relay, and chose Saren's corpse. And then failed.

All logical. All reasonable. Still a failure.

[Inverness Moon]

NYG1991 wrote...

The fact of the matter is while Cerberus has had successful projects they've also got a high rate of failure. Even Lazarus which, while successful, cost the lives of everyone on the station in order to bring shep back. Their mantra seems to be "high risk, high reward". So it's reasonable to assume future problems at the base while Tim is controlling the experiments there. He's not going to take the safe cautious route if it means any delay in getting the info he needs.

The deaths on the Lazarus station were not the fault of Cerberus, they happened because a traitor took control of the mechs and killed everyone.

What TIM will do is is weigh the risks versus the rewards, no different than any other person, including Shepard. The suicide mission was a high risk high reward mission itself. TIM is not going to do anything that he believes could jeopardize our chances against the reapers. Anyone who thinks otherwise underestimates TIM.

[Inverness Moon]

Elite Midget wrote...

Ummm... Hackett seems to not be all that ignorant to the Reapers or the such. In fact, we aren't ever told on Humanity's true stance on the Reaper subject. Andersan and Hackett are very high up on the command chain and they know the threats involved. Hell, I doubt humanity would just ignore what the fought on the Citadel and just take the Councils word for it.

Don't forget that they still ignore it even when they control the Council.

You're being highly optimistic and trying to convince yourself that Cerberus hasn't been the only group trying to stop the reapers for the past 2 years.

There is a good chance that reality is going to slap you in the face in ME3.

Elite Midget wrote...

Doesn't mean Cerberus will actually be contributing all that much. Where was Cerberus in ME1? Doing inhumamne experiments, ignoring Saren(If they weren't already feeding him tech and vice versa), and pretending that the Geth weren't their problem. The Galaxy was in danger than and TIM took a wait and see approach. If anything, TIM most likely was hopng to pick up the scraps and push humanity as the dominiant authority in the Universe.

The geth aren't their problem. That is why the Council has spectres with one-of-a-kind stealth ships to take care of situations like that.

Elite Midget wrote...

(If they weren't already feeding him tech and vice versa)

You're more exasperating than anyone else in this thread because you just won't stop making stuff up in order to smear Cerberus.

if you have any intention of having an honest debate then you need to stop.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 14 octobre 2010 - 01:28 .

[Arijharn]

Shandepared wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But that's actually what bothers me about the Normandy crash site: why didn't the Alliance bombed it to destroy the pieces of the stealth tech?

Sometimes you have to just accept it and not think about it too hard. That said, I had a similar theory to yours. It could be that very few people even know where the Normandy was destroyed. Hopefully the Alliance and Cerberus have been working hard to keep it that way. Still, you'd think that sooner or later some prospector would stumble across it. Unless the Alliance stations a garrison there on a constant basis the secret is gonna get out.

True, but you'd imagine that Alliance retrieval teams would have not only rescued the downed crew, but destroy the Normandy as well at about the same time. Somehow the Virmire survivor and all the rest got picked up (despite the fact that the ship was in the Terminus Systems... perhaps another Normandy class was responsible?)

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Casuist wrote...

Remember what I said about splitting hairs? There's no indication TIM presents of any such connection... and if all he has to say is that flimsy then his NOT mentioning her past history against the Shaodw Broker is indeed withholding relevant information. You're suggesting it's plausible for her to have drastically changed sides because "it's been two years... and.... well... asari lifespans are so long." Yes, using this implausible setup to defend TIM is "stretching."

But, in your defense, you've convinced me to punch the next concierge I see. Information brokers are all part of an interstellar yahg plot. 

TIM told you where she is, you can ask her yourself.  He just tells you what his sources told him and IF what was reported is true, she can't be trusted.  TIM never said she was working with the Shdowbroker... that''s stretching things on your part.

Some reading back to when they've been repeated ad infinitum would be nice.

Akuze
Colony of the Dead
ME: Ascension
See masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_Broker_Dossiers/Cerberus for examples of assassination/sabotage
Kahoku and his marines...

Sorry I'm not that dedicated to read vaguely back across over 70 pages of conversation.  Thanks for the list.

Akuze:  You have a claim that Cerberus was behind the attacks.  In Mass Effect 2, the Alliance claimed that Cerberus was behind the colonist abductions.  There is a difference between a claim made and a deed done.  He-said she-said

Colony of the Dead:  I see that samples were passed along to Cerberus... very deadly samples.  Was there something else?

ME: Ascension:  Gillian is autistic but has the potential to be a very powerful biotic... this coupled with being the daughter of a Cerberus operative (albeit a red-sand addicted one), she's given some medicine by someone working for Cerberus that was/is supposed to help increase her abilities/make her stronger.  The medicine backfires (or Jiro overdoses Gillian) and TIM wants to be able to more closely watch her as they conduct tests.  Time goes on and an alliance operative convinces Grayson that Cerberus wants to make Gillian into a weapon and not a savior.  Grayson then goes off the grid (leaving TIM to think him dead) before returning only to formally leave Cerberus and threatens to expose them with all he knows if Kahlee or Gillian are ever sought again.

Kahoku and Marines:  Cerberus operatives only.  Unknown if TIM was involved.  Could have been, may not have been.

Shepard lies dead, the Reapers are invading, humanity is doomed.
TIM: um, oops.

How many times are you going to make me point out that I am not claiming TIM is trying to kill Shepard in the trap, but that his behavior is likely to stupidly, moronically result in that end?

2 more times, but yeah you could say Liara did the same thing with Sekat.  TIM usually makes sure you're ready before going into something though (and if nothing else, waits until you yourself feel you're ready).

The worst you can say is "I'm doing what I think is best. Get behind me or get out of the way." If you think that will result in Cerberus actively working to take down Shepard- I disagree.

Considering that you always did things your way whether TIM agreed or not... I'm thinking that means that you're leaving Cerberus.  Especially since you're saying ~"stay out of my way." 

FIXED

Fine with me, same thing.

Mordin is never a part of Cerberus. He works with shepard (and is specifically recruited by shepard) for the sake of combating the collector threat. While he may develop some personal loyalty to Shepard. Miranda is a member of Cerberus, Mordin never is.

If you're part of the team you're part of Cerberus.  You're taken care of there and given things by them to ensure you succeed in a mission given by them, same as any member of Cerberus.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young, in lieu of post chain...
 
I like to think of the CB as a bizarre mixture of nursery and shipyard. Hindsight being 20/20, I’m sure Harbinger would loved to have beefed up the defenses quite a bit. 
 
I agree there’s no reasonable way Harbinger could have seen Shepard coming. Though, I am a bit curious why he boarded the Normandy once the IFF went online instead of just destroying it. Maybe he thought Shepard was on board and wanted her alive? After the Normandy raid, Harbinger obviously knew the Normandy and Shepard were out there somewhere with an intact Reaper IFF. Why didn’t he change the Ω4 transit protocols at that point?
 
To be honest I’d like to see if Harbinger faces any consequences from the other Reapers for his failure, just because I’m fascinated as to how a totally alien consciousness makes decisions amongst its own kind. 
 
More than anything else, the Reapers arrogance is put on display when they don’t assume that their enemies (protheans incl.) aren’t just as smart and capable as they are. Moreover, capable of something totally unexpected, “impossible” even. Why would anybody attack someone it a way they were expecting? I do hope they don’t continue to make the same mistakes in the future, it would just make them so one dimensional.
 
If Sovereign could ASSUME CONTROL of the Citadel without ever entering the same room as Shepard, why didn’t he? Was it because he didn’t want to be a sitting target for 5th Fleet? If so wouldn’t that mean Reapers are not so tough after all, and thus the CB is not so important for finding a way to beat them? Or, why not uncouple from the tower, complete the destruction of 5th Fleet and then re-couple and finish the job, while Shepard shakes her fist angrily out the window?
 
It’s fairly obvious that killing robozobo-Saren was what knocked Sovereign for a loop. If he wasn’t either desperate or enraged and prideful, why did he put himself in personal jeopardy for the first and only time in his known existence? Perhaps the Reapers as a race are simply none too bright.
 
Of course no one really knows what was going through Sovereigns AI core when he processed Saren. I like to imagine it was hubris a la Sophocles, because it fits well with the Reaper’s personality. It’s a bit of personal prejudice on my part, to focus on “character-based” explanations for otherwise ambiguous events, so long as they account for all available facts. 
 
As it has recently been pointed out to me, logic, reason, and science have little to do with how technology works in Mass Effect. So I’ve honestly become hesitant to use them to justify anything.  [insert bitterness emoticon here]

Modifié par General User, 14 octobre 2010 - 02:17 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Now... just to help make sure no one gets the wrong idea. Here's some things we know TIM did do:

1) Created a colony of biotic children by exploding a ship above a colony. Caused some birth defects also. Gillian is said to be one of them (having apparently both) who is then given to Paul Grayson.

2) Spies on the Migrant fleet/ wants access to their Flotilla as they're fast-growing to have the strongest/biggest fleet in the galaxy.

3) Captured traitor/liability former-operative Paul Grayson and tested indoctrination and the effects of Reapers on a human being. That said, experiment would've been contained had Grayson not have inadvertantly tipped off Anderson who attacked the base (and other bases) with the Turian fleet.

4) Assassinated a counter candidate for the Tera Firma political party to ensure the man he felt deserved it achieved power.


Definitely not a saint.  Also, while we haven't heard an explaination for those actions... some of them don't need an explaination.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 14 octobre 2010 - 02:32 .

[Casuist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
TIM told you where she is, you can ask her yourself.  He just tells you what his sources told him and IF what was reported is true, she can't be trusted.  TIM never said she was working with the Shdowbroker... that''s stretching things on your part.

...and you don't think that, given the information TIM has available, this is misleading?

Akuze:  You have a claim that Cerberus was behind the attacks.  In Mass Effect 2, the Alliance claimed that Cerberus was behind the colonist abductions.  There is a difference between a claim made and a deed done.  He-said she-said

Toombs is in a position to know. Dr. Wayne essentially admits it. Tela Vasir, a Shadow Broker associate, independently corroborates.

Colony of the Dead:  I see that samples were passed along to Cerberus... very deadly samples.  Was there something else?

...samples which led to the death of innocent people. You're welcome to invent some scenario where Cerberus is not responsible for that event, but all the evidence so far presented suggests it is indeed their responsibility.

ME: Ascension:  Gillian is autistic but has the potential to be a very powerful biotic... this coupled with being the daughter of a Cerberus operative (albeit a red-sand addicted one), she's given some medicine by someone working for Cerberus that was/is supposed to help increase her abilities/make her stronger.

"Medicine" is an interesting way of putting it, particularly since over the course of Ascension in becomes clear that the treatments may have had a role in the severity of her autism. "Daughter" is also an interesting way of putting it, since she's not Grayson's biological offspring and, given their past approach with Pragia it isn't particularly hard for us (or for Grayson) to guess that the means TIM uses to come by her are unlikely to be wholesome.

The medicine backfires (or Jiro overdoses Gillian) and TIM wants to be able to more closely watch her as they conduct tests.  Time goes on and an alliance operative convinces Grayson that Cerberus wants to make Gillian into a weapon and not a savior.

Can't imagine why they'd think so 

Your rundown of the plot excludes the attempted destruction of a quarian ship, as well as the killing of a large number of quarians in the unsuccessful bombing.

Kahoku and Marines:  Cerberus operatives only.  Unknown if TIM was involved.  Could have been, may not have been.

With all the people Cerberus apparently has working for them who are "just operatives," it's a wonder TIM gets anything done.

I see you chose to skip over several political assassinations and the destruction of a Turian vessel, or chose not to re-read the shadow broker dossier.

 TIM usually makes sure you're ready before going into something though (and if nothing else, waits until you yourself feel you're ready).

...and it wouldn't be possible for him to determine readiness in this instance. Telling Shepard would improve chances of success/survival.

Considering that you always did things your way whether TIM agreed or not... I'm thinking that means that you're leaving Cerberus.  Especially since you're saying ~"stay out of my way." 

You're never part of Cerberus (except for those that choose to be, i suppose). Regardless... TIM has nothing to gain and everything to lose by antagonizing Shepard, particularly over a matter which caused the defection of one of his inner circle (Grayson's info almost took cerberus down, miranda's would). 

If you're part of the team you're part of Cerberus.  You're taken care of there and given things by them to ensure you succeed in a mission given by them, same as any member of Cerberus.

"Maybe that's what they want you to think."- to quote Horizon during one of the many occasions in which you can point out that you don't answer to Cerberus. They are providing support, but at the end of the day Mordin has no allegiance to the group whatsoever. Give him the samples and a clinic on Omega and he'll do the same thing, to the best of the ability, because he's in it to fight the Collectors and, by extension, the reapers. That's not being part of Cerberus.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But that's actually what bothers me about the Normandy crash site: why didn't the Alliance bombed it to destroy the pieces of the stealth tech?

Sometimes you have to just accept it and not think about it too hard. That said, I had a similar theory to yours. It could be that very few people even know where the Normandy was destroyed. Hopefully the Alliance and Cerberus have been working hard to keep it that way. Still, you'd think that sooner or later some prospector would stumble across it. Unless the Alliance stations a garrison there on a constant basis the secret is gonna get out.

True, but you'd imagine that Alliance retrieval teams would have not only rescued the downed crew, but destroy the Normandy as well at about the same time. Somehow the Virmire survivor and all the rest got picked up (despite the fact that the ship was in the Terminus Systems... perhaps another Normandy class was responsible?)

I don't think it was the Alliance who retrieved the survivors. Other "Normandy class" weren't finished back then. And it's the Terminus Systems, and a long way from base... I bet it was the same Blue Suns that returned later after Shepard's body. At first they were fishing for the easy money and literally sold the survivors back to the Alliance. Only when the Shadow Broker contracted them, did they return there and go planetside.
...
Hmmm... As to the Cerberus being on the watch, I think now, that it's in fact such a good speculation that I'm going to update my "Cerberus=Alliance" thread with it as PROOF.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Recall that the only reason the single point of failure only was exploitable because of an entirely different epic chain of events beyond the Reapers control, ie the Prothean sabatoge and Shepard breaking the cycle, almost certainly for the first time (given Sovereign's intent to replace the Keepers with Geth upon discovering the Keeper change). That was the critical failure that gave the galaxy a chance (not an assurance) to learn about Sovereign and the Reapers, and its only because of their defeat of Sovereign, again never an assurance, that the Collectors even gave reason to draw notice. And after that, it still required breaking a solid trap and then finding a long-lost Reaper not uncovered by hundreds/thousands of other species before Shepard could cross the Omega 4 relay... after the IFF itself acted against the Normandy, and only a crippled man unshackling an AI saved the IFF and the mission.

Dean, I thought you had your doubts about the Vigil. Like, why did it so happen that TWO entirely independent "accidents" (or "critical failures" like you say) occured in such a mysterious connection in time and space, and within one cycle? The probability of both events was miniscule, but the probability of the coincidence drives it out of my margin of believability, even given the long time the Reapers have been around.

And besides, do you believe in the Rachni indoctrination too? I mean, come on, why would Sovereign want to recall its buddies back then, when only a few species achieved space travel and the Galaxy was practically empty and not so much populated yet? This at least goes against the Vigil's story...

Inverness Moon wrote...

The deaths on the Lazarus station were not the fault of Cerberus, they happened because a traitor took control of the mechs and killed everyone.

This has been discussed several times in several other threads, but as this thread is full of "Cerberus ineptness", one might as well take it here too. (Forgive me Ari, I have to!)

Wilson did not hack the mechs. Miranda did. The whole mess on the Lazarus station was a huge Cerberus success. It included (to complement the success of Shepard's resurrection itself):

1) Detecting the Shadow Broker's top mole;

2) Elimination of said mole, along with other potential and suspected "liabilities". See, the Cerberus personnel that got killed could have been reassigned there from around the Galaxy specifically for elimination, once the Operation "Wake-Up" (or whatever) was approved by TIM, while all or the most of the trustworthy personnel had been transfered elsewhere. The most valuable scientific and medical personnel could have been removed altogether as their job on Shepard had been finished;

3) Live fire exercise for Shepard.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 octobre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Zulu_DFA]

This whole idea of the Rachni having been indoctrinated comes from a necromantic bug's begging for mercy after it was mind-raped by an indoctrinated asari. Rrrright.

[Elite Midget]

[Don't forget that they still ignore it even when they control the Council.



You're being highly optimistic and trying to convince yourself that Cerberus hasn't been the only group trying to stop the reapers for the past 2 years.



There is a good chance that reality is going to slap you in the face in ME3.]



I already explained in a previous post that the politicians are the ones ignoring the threat while the military and rational-minded ones aren't. They're just busy fighting against the stonewalling that the polticians are doing. Furthermore, with all the new tech the Citadel races have come up with other the 2 year time span it shows that production and innovation is MANY times greater than what Cerberus is doing. Especially since the alien tech was already better than what Cerberus just churnned out,



That's being naive to believe that only Cerberus is doing anything. Hackett and Andersan seem to doing a lot more to spread the word and unite the universe than TIM who was sitting around and having Shepard do all the work. Not to mention that the tech he did give Shepard were a bunch of oudated toys compared to what the Citadel races already have in use.



[The geth aren't their problem. That is why the Council has spectres with one-of-a-kind stealth ships to take care of situations like that.]



And the Collectors are their problem? Really, you're going to exclude the Geth, who served the Reapers, but give the Collectors a pass? That's silly and you know it. After all, the Geth attacked 'many' human colonies and turned many humans into Husks and you know what Cerberus did? Ignored them and even tried out some of the experiments themselves. If Cerberus was really worried about humanity than why did they not do anything in ME1 except kill innocents and conduct inhumane experiments when the Geth were mass killing humans and gathering technology?



[You're more exasperating than anyone else in this thread because you just won't stop making stuff up in order to smear Cerberus.



if you have any intention of having an honest debate then you need to stop.]



Cerberus has a history of playing all sides against eachother, betraying even their own for experiments, and attacking other races to get data. Not to mention that they hunt down and murder in cold blood innocences to protect their inhumane deeds. So, no. I'm not exasperating anything, I'm going by what we do know about TIM and Cerberus.