2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

[quote]Casuist wrote...

[quote]
...and you don't think that, given the information TIM has available, this is misleading?[/quote]

Would be a pretty dumb mislead to tell Shepard where she is and not expect him to go there... especially since you need to go through her in finding some of the dossiers anyway.  Short answer, no... it't just what it is, a source's claim.  You don't seem to think TIM's smarter than that but I personally do.


[quote]
Toombs is in a position to know. Dr. Wayne essentially admits it. Tela Vasir, a Shadow Broker associate, independently corroborates.[/quote]

They're in a position to know what steps the scientists took and that they were a part of Cerberus when they did it.  Whether this was decided by Tim and them consequently being truly TIM's fault is still unknown.  The experiments done (if you want to call them that) weren't really in a position to yield any data... more like pulling the wings off a fly or something.


[quote]
...samples which led to the death of innocent people. You're welcome to invent some scenario where Cerberus is not responsible for that event, but all the evidence so far presented suggests it is indeed their responsibility.[/quote]

Don't need to invent a scenario, we already know something played out in the delivering of said samples to Cerberus.

[quote]
"Medicine" is an interesting way of putting it, particularly since over the course of Ascension in becomes clear that the treatments may have had a role in the severity of her autism. "Daughter" is also an interesting way of putting it, since she's not Grayson's biological offspring and, given their past approach with Pragia it isn't particularly hard for us (or for Grayson) to guess that the means TIM uses to come by her are unlikely to be wholesome.[/quote]

She was autistic to begin with, and it may have increased her autism.  Can call it drugs if you want... and those drugs had side-effects.  Cerberus was obviously not going for those side-effects.

[quote]
Can't imagine why they'd think so 

Your rundown of the plot excludes the attempted destruction of a quarian ship, as well as the killing of a large number of quarians in the unsuccessful bombing.[/quote]

Wasn't relevant to the topic of Gillian's treatment.  They tried attacking the Quarian ship in order to get access codes as well as get Gillian back.... wasn't just something they woke up and decided to do.

[quote]
With all the people Cerberus apparently has working for them who are "just operatives," it's a wonder TIM gets anything done.[/quote]

Again, TIM's power and influence has limits.  Those who join Cerberus don't always do what he says or in a way he would do them.  Not all that take Cerberus's money and resources are there to do what TIM says or how he says to do them.  We should know this by now... and it's the price of operating outside of the law... you attract people outside of the law.


[quote]I see you chose to skip over several political assassinations and the destruction of a Turian vessel, or chose not to re-read the shadow broker dossier.[/quote]

Then you missed my other posts and that's regretable, because they're really awesome.

[quote]
...and it wouldn't be possible for him to determine readiness in this instance. Telling Shepard would improve chances of success/survival.[/quote]

If the Collectors could've really been tipped off, then probably not.  The Collectors could've aborted the lure attempt if they didn't think it would work.

[quote]
You're never part of Cerberus (except for those that choose to be, i suppose). Regardless... TIM has nothing to gain and everything to lose by antagonizing Shepard, particularly over a matter which caused the defection of one of his inner circle (Grayson's info almost took cerberus down, miranda's would). [/quote]

Working with them in the capacity you are makes you a part of Cerberus.. just on a provisional basis.  Miranda didn't want to kill you and refused an order given by TIM (imagine that).

[quote]
"Maybe that's what they want you to think."- to quote Horizon during one of the many occasions in which you can point out that you don't answer to Cerberus. They are providing support, but at the end of the day Mordin has no allegiance to the group whatsoever. Give him the samples and a clinic on Omega and he'll do the same thing, to the best of the ability, because he's in it to fight the Collectors and, by extension, the reapers. That's not being part of Cerberus.[/quote]

They're providing a base, food, resources, intel, and orders.... you pilot their ship and command their crew on a mission TIM gave you... that's pretty much being (provisionally) a part of Cerberus.  You don't need to have allegiance to be a part of Cerberus, seeing as a number of rogue group actions prove that.  Unless you want to only blame the actions of those who are loyal to Cerberus on Cerberus... is that what you're saying?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 14 octobre 2010 - 04:31 .

[RiouHotaru]

Arijharn wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But that's actually what bothers me about the Normandy crash site: why didn't the Alliance bombed it to destroy the pieces of the stealth tech?

Sometimes you have to just accept it and not think about it too hard. That said, I had a similar theory to yours. It could be that very few people even know where the Normandy was destroyed. Hopefully the Alliance and Cerberus have been working hard to keep it that way. Still, you'd think that sooner or later some prospector would stumble across it. Unless the Alliance stations a garrison there on a constant basis the secret is gonna get out.

True, but you'd imagine that Alliance retrieval teams would have not only rescued the downed crew, but destroy the Normandy as well at about the same time. Somehow the Virmire survivor and all the rest got picked up (despite the fact that the ship was in the Terminus Systems... perhaps another Normandy class was responsible?)

Or perhaps it was assumed there was nothing left worth grabbing.  The Collectors blew the Normandy into pieces, they left nary a section fully intact.  So it's likely that their attention to detail resulted in them blowing the Normandy apart which helped take care of any sensitive parts or pieces.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

PS: After Miranda quits Cerberus, she still rides around in a Cerberus-marked ship with a Cerberus crew (unless they all left with her), but it'd still be a Cerberus vessel.


EDIT:

Also, right now I view TIM a lot like Riddick from Pitch Black.  Is he ruthless and can he be extreme?  Yeah.  Is his expertise currently necessary to win against the creatures on that planet? 

Therein lies the CB delimma.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 14 octobre 2010 - 04:50 .

[Alexander TM]

I destroyed it. I have already proven that I don't need to study them in order to completely destroy them.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Right now I see TIM as Riddick from Pitch Black. Is he ruthless? Yes. Is his expertise necessary to win against the creatures of that planet and survive?



Therein lies the CB delimma.

[RiouHotaru]

Shandepared wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...


Or perhaps it was assumed there was nothing left worth grabbing.

That's a dangerous assumption. Even fragments could provide critical data to an interested party. That's not the kind of thing you gamble with.

When your enemy reduces your ship to that many pieces of scrap, I think that whatever systems could've been salvaged were lost.  I mean, the Drive Core was completely gone...I think it is safe to conclude that the stealth systems were also pulverised.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Alexander TM wrote...

I destroyed it. I have already proven that I don't need to study them in order to completely destroy them.

You assume you can win by brute force...  What's your answer to massive indoctrination?

[Elite Midget]

Not to mention that even the smallest scraps of a dead Soverign proved very beneficial to the scavanger.

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

When your enemy reduces your ship to that many pieces of scrap, I think that whatever systems could've been salvaged were lost.

I think you're making a dangerous assumption.

Consider airplane crash investigations.

I updated the Cerberus/Alliance thread.

As for the airplaine crashes...

Who else remember the story about an F-117 downed in Yugoslavia in 1999, and how a couple of days later the Chinese Embassy there got "accidentally" bombed?

[Casuist]

They're in a position to know what steps the scientists took and that they were a part of Cerberus when they did it.  Whether this was decided by Tim and them consequently being truly TIM's fault is still unknown.  The experiments done (if you want to call them that) weren't really in a position to yield any data... more like pulling the wings off a fly or something.

Damn, I want to lead an organization were I have no accountability for anything.... which, given what we know about TIM's managerial behavior (per EDI) doesn't make a lick of sense.

Can't imagine why they'd think so 

Your rundown of the plot excludes the attempted destruction of a quarian ship, as well as the killing of a large number of quarians in the unsuccessful bombing.

Wasn't relevant to the topic of Gillian's treatment.  They tried attacking the Quarian ship in order to get access codes as well as get Gillian back.... wasn't just something they woke up and decided to do.

...yet was relevant to the subject at hand. It was an expedition that would have lead to the death of 693 innocent quarians, and an expedition TIM approved (whoops, I guess he's responsible for that one).

Again, TIM's power and influence has limits.  Those who join Cerberus don't always do what he says or in a way he would do them.

To read your comments, "barely ever" would be a more appropriate description than "not always."
Damn, I want to lead an organization were I have no accountability for anything.... 

Not all that take Cerberus's money and resources are there to do what TIM says or how he says to do them.  We should know this by now... and it's the price of operating outside of the law... you attract people outside of the law.

...a statement which is, again, at odds with what Miranda and EDI say about how the organization is run.

I see you chose to skip over several political assassinations and the destruction of a Turian vessel, or chose not to re-read the shadow broker dossier.

Then you missed my other posts and that's regretable, because they're really awesome.

I caught your comment about the Terra Firma candidate. I'll eagerly await explanations of the turian sabotage and the other several assassinations.

Unless you want to only blame the actions of those who are loyal to Cerberus on Cerberus... is that what you're saying?

It seems what I was saying was that the seeker swarm countermeasure is mordin's responsibility and that he has no allegiance or long term connection to the group. It seems what I was saying also is that Shepard's affiliation is a matter of convenience only (working "with" not working "for"). As to only blaming Cerberus (and TIM) for the actions of those who loyal to it- that seems to be what you're saying (along with the claim that anyone who ever did anything wrong wasn't loyal).

[tallinn]

smudboy wrote...

If TIM is so afraid of the Reapers and so much convinced of Shephard's important role in defeating them, why does he risks his most valuable asset any time he sends him to a mission by not giving him full information about what to expect?

Because he confident in Shepard's abilities.  Just rewatch that scene after the Disabled Collector Cruiser.  Pretty clear.

That excuse of TIM  is so lame it made me laugh. The way TIM is leading Shephard has nothing to do with protecting his troops while advancing on the Reaper threat. It is not even leading on a "need to know" basis. If a seemingly abandonded ship is not abandonded but really a trap and TIM is aware of it that is something the squad entering the ship needs to know. The only question that remains unanswered is what TIM would have done if the trap had been sucessful. It wasn't only the squad that was in danger but the normandy as well meaning that the mission could have become a complete failure: nothing gained, all lost. Only the information EDI gathered during the mission and uploaded to Cerberus would have remained. I think that makes it very clear what TIM is really after.

Modifié par tallinn, 14 octobre 2010 - 07:46 .

[Arijharn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

When your enemy reduces your ship to that many pieces of scrap, I think that whatever systems could've been salvaged were lost.

I think you're making a dangerous assumption.

Consider airplane crash investigations.

I updated the Cerberus/Alliance thread.

As for the airplaine crashes...

Who else remember the story about an F-117 downed in Yugoslavia in 1999, and how a couple of days later the Chinese Embassy there got "accidentally" bombed?

Closer to current was the case of a E-3 Sentry I think that crashed near China. The Chinese promised the return of the E3 but not before they had a thorough examination to determine the 'fault.'

[Finnish Dragon]

Arijharn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

When your enemy reduces your ship to that many pieces of scrap, I think that whatever systems could've been salvaged were lost.

I think you're making a dangerous assumption.

Consider airplane crash investigations.

I updated the Cerberus/Alliance thread.

As for the airplaine crashes...

Who else remember the story about an F-117 downed in Yugoslavia in 1999, and how a couple of days later the Chinese Embassy there got "accidentally" bombed?

Closer to current was the case of a E-3 Sentry I think that crashed near China. The Chinese promised the return of the E3 but not before they had a thorough examination to determine the 'fault.'

That plane was EP-3 Orion, not E-3 Sentry AWACS plane.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Casuist wrote...

Damn, I want to lead an organization were I have no accountability for anything.... which, given what we know about TIM's managerial behavior (per EDI) doesn't make a lick of sense.

Per both EDI and Miranda, we see the limits of his power and influence in handling his employees (managerial behavior).  He gives cells directives and they're responsible for achieving those objectives with the resources given to them.  That's the extent of his micromanagement.  As Miranda said:  "They gave me my resources and said 'doi it'" 

...yet was relevant to the subject at hand. It was an expedition that would have lead to the death of 693 innocent quarians, and an expedition TIM approved (whoops, I guess he's responsible for that one).

Not a whoops, they did it for the reasons I specified earlier (getting codes and getting Gallian back) and it may well have cost a lot of lives... but the operatives on the ground would be more responsible for saving lives during an assault.  Freedom's Progress in Mass Effect 1 is a good example of this... where you can save infected colonists by knocking them out.. you don't have to kill them.

To read your comments, "barely ever" would be a more appropriate description than "not always."
Damn, I want to lead an organization were I have no accountability for anything.... 

That's why I want to distinctly point out the difference in the point I'm making.  Some things you cannot blame on TIM while other things you can.  That's been the whole point.  I focus on the incidences where you couldn't blame TIM... even though members under the Cerberus banner performed it.  Also when I say he's not a saint... that means he does some sinful stuff.

...a statement which is, again, at odds with what Miranda and EDI say about how the organization is run.

It's in perfect sync.  Talk to Miranda regarding how TIM's actually getting more involved with you than he normally does on Cerberus operations.  And how involved was he with you? (answer:  Not very involved but did give plenty of objectives along the lines of "find this" "get that")

I caught your comment about the Terra Firma candidate. I'll eagerly await explanations of the turian sabotage and the other several assassinations.

If you want to talk about specific incidences we can look at them in detail.  If it's just Cerberus doing what it does, then that's what it is... but enough has gone on to see it's not as clear cut as you may think it is and that there are quite a number of incidences that can't be blamed on Cerberus.  Try not to think in extremes though, I'm saying there's some of one as well as the other.

It seems what I was saying was that the seeker swarm countermeasure is mordin's responsibility and that he has no allegiance or long term connection to the group. It seems what I was saying also is that Shepard's affiliation is a matter of convenience only (working "with" not working "for"). As to only blaming Cerberus (and TIM) for the actions of those who loyal to it- that seems to be what you're saying (along with the claim that anyone who ever did anything wrong wasn't loyal).

The people Cerberus employ to do a task are equally uniquely responsible for achieving an objective they've been given.  Their affiliation is also a matter of convenience.  Working with/for, if you follow their objectives and recieve compensation, equipment, and supplies, you work "for" them.

You overexaggerate when I point out some things can't be blamed on Cerberus.  That doesn't mean TIM is a saint... I've said this a number of times on this thread already.  We know some things TIM did do and we know some things TIM didn't do... all of which were under the banner of Cerberus regardless. 

Look at it this way, a store employee kicks a kid in the face... is that the fault of the store or the employee?  You can say "Oh but the management and the bosses and the rules" but like it or not these things happen and really I'm sure you see that and to the heart of what I'm saying.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

tallinn wrote...
That excuse of TIM  is so lame it made me laugh. The way TIM is leading Shephard has nothing to do with protecting his troops while advancing on the Reaper threat. It is not even leading on a "need to know" basis. If a seemingly abandonded ship is not abandonded but really a trap and TIM is aware of it that is something the squad entering the ship needs to know. The only question that remains unanswered is what TIM would have done if the trap had been sucessful. It wasn't only the squad that was in danger but the normandy as well meaning that the mission could have become a complete failure: nothing gained, all lost. Only the information EDI gathered during the mission and uploaded to Cerberus would have remained. I think that makes it very clear what TIM is really after.

TIM doesn't and didn't need to spend all that time reviving Shepard to do that.  In the end I chalk it up to him just being overly cautious.  If the Collectors got wind that their ambush was known ahead of time, they could've retreated and the opportunity would've been lost.

[GGRush]

For Kahoku: imagine if a US marine officer walks into an FBI secret base without any FBI authorization and refuses to leave.

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

Dean_the_Young, in lieu of post chain...
 
I like to think of the CB as a bizarre mixture of nursery and shipyard. Hindsight being 20/20, I’m sure Harbinger would loved to have beefed up the defenses quite a bit.

Maybe, maybe not. The defenses of the base wouldn't have mattered had whoever was in charge (or not in charge) of cleaning up Reaper corpses found the Derilect Reaperand kept the IFF out of Shepard's hands. That, more than the bases defenses, ruined the Collectors: once the IFF is in the hands of organics, any number of attempts against the base can be made, no matter how many Reapers you put behind there.
 

I agree there’s no reasonable way Harbinger could have seen Shepard coming. Though, I am a bit curious why he boarded the Normandy once the IFF went online instead of just destroying it. Maybe he thought Shepard was on board and wanted her alive? After the Normandy raid, Harbinger obviously knew the Normandy and Shepard were out there somewhere with an intact Reaper IFF. 

Likely that: every battle, after all, Harbinger will say he wants Shepard's body intact.

Why didn’t he change the Ω4 transit protocols at that point?

Who says he can? When have the Reapers ever had that ability?

The Relay Network, after all, is described as having a control system... stationed in the Citadel. Which had never failed before the Prothean sabatoge. What need for a system to change IFFs on each individual relay?
 

More than anything else, the Reapers arrogance is put on display when they don’t assume that their enemies (protheans incl.) aren’t just as smart and capable as they are. Moreover, capable of something totally unexpected, “impossible” even. Why would anybody attack someone it a way they were expecting? I do hope they don’t continue to make the same mistakes in the future, it would just make them so one dimensional.

Their enemies aren't as smart and capable as they are, though. And they have the vanguard watching over them (Sovereign) to know it. All the galaxy can potentially have in its favor is numbers.

Unexpected/impossible things are, by their nature, beyond prediction and posibility. More importantly, the consequences of the unexpected may not matter.


 

If Sovereign could ASSUME CONTROL of the Citadel without ever entering the same room as Shepard, why didn’t he?

Vigil's data file preventing him for some time.

 Was it because he didn’t want to be a sitting target for 5th Fleet? If so wouldn’t that mean Reapers are not so tough after all, and thus the CB is not so important for finding a way to beat them?

No, because you're confusing the ability to overwhelm an individual with overall superiority. Ten gangsters may be able to mug a soldier any day of the week, but when it comes to a less lopsided fight I'd put my money on the soldiers.

One Reaper and some geth tore the heart out of the galactic seat of power. Ten reapers disperse the fire, and can manage the threat more evenly and quickly. A hundred, even more. A thousand-

 Or, why not uncouple from the tower, complete the destruction of 5th Fleet and then re-couple and finish the job, while Shepard shakes her fist angrily out the window?

An evaluation of chances that the 5th Fleet and Citadel forces is more dangerous and likely to win than Shepard.

[Dean_the_Young]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...


Or perhaps it was assumed there was nothing left worth grabbing.

That's a dangerous assumption. Even fragments could provide critical data to an interested party. That's not the kind of thing you gamble with.

When your enemy reduces your ship to that many pieces of scrap, I think that whatever systems could've been salvaged were lost.  I mean, the Drive Core was completely gone...I think it is safe to conclude that the stealth systems were also pulverised.

*coughSovereignreducedtorubble*cough*Thanix/EDI/more*cough*

*coughblowupCollectorbase*cough*stillmaterialforRetribution*

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 octobre 2010 - 10:45 .

[Inverness Moon]

Elite Midget wrote...

I already explained in a previous post that the politicians are the ones ignoring the threat while the military and rational-minded ones aren't. They're just busy fighting against the stonewalling that the polticians are doing. Furthermore, with all the new tech the Citadel races have come up with other the 2 year time span it shows that production and innovation is MANY times greater than what Cerberus is doing. Especially since the alien tech was already better than what Cerberus just churnned out,

Cerberus just churned out Commander Shepard himself for 4 billion credits. If it wasn't for that you wouldn't have a game to play. And lets not forget EDI and the Normandy SR2, which are both vital to your mission unlike the ship upgrades, were made by Cerberus. I'm assuming you're trying to use those upgrades as evidence of how much better the Citadel races compared to Cerberus?

Plus, the Thannix cannons were developed from reaper technology, like EDI.

Also where did you find the evidence that anyone in the Alliance excluding Anderson believed in the reapers and was trying to do anything about it?

Elite Midget wrote...

That's being naive to believe that only Cerberus is doing anything. Hackett and Andersan seem to doing a lot more to spread the word and unite the universe than TIM who was sitting around and having Shepard do all the work. Not to mention that the tech he did give Shepard were a bunch of oudated toys compared to what the Citadel races already have in use.

Naive? I'd say it is naive for you to believe they are doing something. If the Alliance had enough evidence to act and acknowledged the threat, the other Council races would be doing the same. Nothing in ME2 indicates that they're doing anything about it; your optimism is misleading you.

If they actually believed in the reaper threat they would have told Shepard about it when they found out he was alive. It doesn't matter if they think he is working for Cerberus or not, because the threat is just that serious. Do you think they would want Shepard hanging around Cerberus if they knew (and they should) that he was only working with them in order to deal with the reapers?

I'm just starting to think you can't handle the fact that Cerberus is the only group actually helping you. I also think you came into this thread so you could attempt to justify your decision no matter how you distort the facts, rather than with an interest in an honest debate about people's reasonings. You've been fanatically anti-Cerberus from the get-go.

Is that why you chose that avatar? 

Elite Midget wrote...

And the Collectors are their problem? Really, you're going to exclude the Geth, who served the Reapers, but give the Collectors a pass? That's silly and you know it. After all, the Geth attacked 'many' human colonies and turned many humans into Husks and you know what Cerberus did? Ignored them and even tried out some of the experiments themselves. If Cerberus was really worried about humanity than why did they not do anything in ME1 except kill innocents and conduct inhumane experiments when the Geth were mass killing humans and gathering technology?

The reapers are everybody's problem. And the collectors are working for them. So yes its Cerberus's problem.

Everyone thought Saren was working alone in ME1 until the reapers were discovered. Cerberus's lack of involvement in ME1 is entirely excusable because dealing with Saren and his geth was Shepard's job.

Also, where are these mass killings of humans and how were the geth gathering technology? Eden Prime was a surprise attack, Cerberus couldn't have known or done anything about that, and neither did anyone else.

Elite Midget wrote...

Cerberus has a history of playing all sides against eachother, betraying even their own for experiments, and attacking other races to get data. Not to mention that they hunt down and murder in cold blood innocences to protect their inhumane deeds. So, no. I'm not exasperating anything, I'm going by what we do know about TIM and Cerberus.

Your behavior is not consistent with someone interested in considering other people's point of view. You've made wild exaggerations, and assumptions in order to support your point of view. A good example of this is when you twice repeated that I or someone else thought TIM and/or Cerberus was infallible and could do no wrong, etc., just because we weren't on the same side of the argument as you.

You're far too biased.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 14 octobre 2010 - 11:05 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Jacob has a similar viewpoint regarding Cerberus/TIM as most Renegade choosers I'm guessing (maybe all)

 

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 14 octobre 2010 - 11:06 .

[Inverness Moon]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Jacob has a similar viewpoint regarding Cerberus/TIM as most Renegade choosers I'm guessing (maybe all)

 

I believe that public opinion of Cerberus will increase significantly if their involvement in bringing back Shepard and stopping the collectors ever gets out. TIM believes history will vindicate Cerberus, and so far its looking like that is what is going to happen. Though Shepard may be able to influence that in ME3.

[StarGateGod]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Alexander TM wrote...

I destroyed it. I have already proven that I don't need to study them in order to completely destroy them.

You assume you can win by brute force...  What's your answer to massive indoctrination?

mutated anthrax