2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolf Warden]

StarGateGod wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Alexander TM wrote...

I destroyed it. I have already proven that I don't need to study them in order to completely destroy them.

You assume you can win by brute force...  What's your answer to massive indoctrination?

mutated anthrax

Brilliant!

[Phaedon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I was making a strike against nebulous generalizations.

I see, well, I indeed do not trust the Illusive Man with the base because a) He will use it for other purposes, He is a criminal.

I can back up all of my claims with facts, but I don't think that you need a whole list for each simple post. 

[Dean_the_Young]

a) And he will not act with other purposes if you do not give him the base, and

this invalidates his ability to help against the greater threat?

I mean, protesting about the Illusive Man on the grounds that he's a criminal when any Shepard is has more criminal allies than not is... selective.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 octobre 2010 - 01:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Whatever his other purposes are, they'd be less dangerous without the base. And yes; I'd say giving it to him will hinder his ability to help against the greater threat.

[Dean_the_Young]

Because...?

Generalizations again.
 
Does TIM have better hardware without the base?

Does TIM have better software without the base?

Does TIM have better technology insights without the base?

Does TIM have better systems to handoff to the Alliance without the Base?

Does TIM have better information and insight about the Reapers without the base?

Does TIM have more willing partners in the Alliance and Council, partners willing to work with him that wouldn't otherwise, without the Base?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 octobre 2010 - 02:37 .

[Big I]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because...?

Generalizations again.
 
Does TIM have better hardware without the base?

Does TIM have better software without the base?

Does TIM have better technology insights without the base?

Does TIM have better systems to handoff to the Alliance without the Base?

Does TIM have better information and insight about the Reapers without the base?

Does TIM have more willing partners in the Alliance and Council, partners willing to work with him that wouldn't otherwise, without the Base?

There's no question that Cerberus's ability to help against the Reapers is diminished by destroying the base. That's bad. On the other hand, TIM himself tells you that he's not going to exclusively use the base against the Reapers, hes going to use it to "secure human dominance against the Reapers and beyond." Many people feel that is also bad.

Given Cerberus beliefs, if TIM had the base he would probably, in addition to helping against the Reapers:

1) Undermine and attack the Council, the central institution of galactic society,

2) Undermine or co-opt the Alliance, the democratically elected governing body of humanity beyond Earth and outside the Terminus systems,

3) Potentially, and only based upon accusations from squadmates and Shepard (so no actual proof), use the base to create his own mini-Reaper. No evidence, but the dialogue could be some interesting foreshadowing, or it could be nothing.

(2) still works even if as some say Cerberus is still a part of the Alliance, as I imagine TIM would be eager to have a larger say in decision making in the Alliance, thus supporting the movemnet of power away from an elected parliament and into the hands of an unelected paramilitary organisation.

[Casuist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Per both EDI and Miranda, we see the limits of his power and influence in handling his employees (managerial behavior).  He gives cells directives and they're responsible for achieving those objectives with the resources given to them.  That's the extent of his micromanagement.  As Miranda said:  "They gave me my resources and said 'doi it'" 

Per EDI, we know that there are never more than a dozen Cerberus cells in existence for the specific reason that TIM likes to maintain personal oversight, and we also receive the information that the approximate composition of Cerberus at gametime was three cells and 150 operatives (at least a third of which must have been dead by the end of the game ). In both Ascension and Retribution he is heavily involved with Cerberus activities taking place.

...yet was relevant to the subject at hand. It was an expedition that would have lead to the death of 693 innocent quarians, and an expedition TIM approved (whoops, I guess he's responsible for that one).

Not a whoops, they did it for the reasons I specified earlier (getting codes and getting Gallian back) and it may well have cost a lot of lives... but the operatives on the ground would be more responsible for saving lives during an assault.  Freedom's Progress in Mass Effect 1 is a good example of this... where you can save infected colonists by knocking them out.. you don't have to kill them.

ummm.... what operatives on what ground are you referring to? There isn't any lifesaving going on. They were tasked to recover Gillian and blow up a ship manned by 700 innocent bystanders. TIM was aware of the operation and approved it. 

That's why I want to distinctly point out the difference in the point I'm making.  Some things you cannot blame on TIM while other things you can.  That's been the whole point.  I focus on the incidences where you couldn't blame TIM... even though members under the Cerberus banner performed it.  Also when I say he's not a saint... that means he does some sinful stuff.

...and you've suggested that he may not be personally responsible for either Akuze or the deaths of Kahoku and his marines, positions for which you have no evidence. Given that TIM likes to maintain oversight, the safer assumption and vastly more likely scenario is that he does bear some personal responsibility.

Even in the scenario you espouse- where he simply tasks cell leaders and then washes his hands of the projects - he would then bear responsibility for putting those people in that position and dictating moral boundaries.

It's in perfect sync.  Talk to Miranda regarding how TIM's actually getting more involved with you than he normally does on Cerberus operations.  And how involved was he with you? (answer:  Not very involved but did give plenty of objectives along the lines of "find this" "get that")

How involved was he with you? Answer: He bugged the entire ship to be aware of every action taken. He filed mission reports/summaries at every turn, gave you personal commentary on your decisions on several instances and gave you mission assignments in "person" several more times. 

Your "plausible deniability" argument is heavily dependent on TIM being vastly less involved in other projects than he is with you.

If you want to talk about specific incidences we can look at them in detail.  If it's just Cerberus doing what it does, then that's what it is... but enough has gone on to see it's not as clear cut as you may think it is and that there are quite a number of incidences that can't be blamed on Cerberus.  Try not to think in extremes though, I'm saying there's some of one as well as the other.

2171 - Pope Clement XVI assassinated via rosary beads coated with sodium nonacetate and dimethyl sulfoxide. Death attributed to age and heart failure. Replacement, Pope Leo XIV, has eschatological beliefs in-line with militarizing humanity; forgiving attitude to salarians re: genophage proves useful for strategic alliances against turians.
...
2174 - Radium placed inside office chair of Systems Alliance parliamentarian Artyom Gavrikov. Gavrikov's death attributed to cancer. Emergency election much cheaper to manipulate than normal process. Cerberus-backed candidate loses; winning candidate approached, found susceptible to bribes.
...
2175 - Michael Moser Lang approached by operatives in militia community -- insider information given for stock buy to provide him with funding. Contact severed, but electronic surveillance remains. Lang purchases armaments.
2176 - Electronic surveillance removed from Lang's home. Lang kills Enrique Aguilar and Ying Xiong. Resulting approval bump for Vice-President Belknap allows passage of financial reform bill allowing for increased loopholes in colony-based shell companies. Fighting among Vice-Premiers a bonus, as Lin Yi alienates Politburo Standing Committee and his chances of election to the Systems Alliance Parliament are dashed.
...
2182 - MSV Anixara sabotaged. Catalyst added to metastable metallic hydrogen fuel by timer injection. Ship breaks apart during FTL, all hands aboard lost, turian Hierarchy hawk Raherix Ursivus killed in the process. Explosion attributed to faulty engineering.

[mosor]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

TIM himself tells you that he's not going to exclusively use the base against the Reapers, hes going to use it to "secure human dominance against the Reapers and beyond." Many people feel that is also bad.

This is a good thing.  Turians solve problems by shooting at them, salarians solve problems by creating bigger ones, and asari dance and strip in the hope the person forgets there is a problem.

1) Undermine and attack the Council, the central institution of galactic society,

The council is stale, disfunctional, and  every civilzation under it's juristiction has culturally plataeued. They're a force for galactic stagnation, not progress.

2) Undermine or co-opt the Alliance, the democratically elected governing body of humanity beyond Earth and outside the Terminus systems,

Democracy is undermined by big buisness and special interest groups at any rate. Rather have it co-opted by an organization with a grand vision of a strong humanity, than by some corperation with baser motives like money.

3) Potentially, and only based upon accusations from squadmates and Shepard (so no actual proof), use the base to create his own mini-Reaper. No evidence, but the dialogue could be some interesting foreshadowing, or it could be nothing.

I didn't get the same impression from the dialogue. At any rate it's impractical to harvest millions of humans to build even one reaper. I guess bioware can engage in bad writing to make it so. It wouldn't be the first time.

(2) still works even if as some say Cerberus is still a part of the Alliance, as I imagine TIM would be eager to have a larger say in decision making in the Alliance, thus supporting the movemnet of power away from an elected parliament and into the hands of an unelected paramilitary organisation.

Elected officials have power in name only anyway. I'm sure TIM will keep the set up as is, since it will probably work for him.

Modifié par mosor, 14 octobre 2010 - 06:39 .

[lovgreno]

Assasinations like those, probably approved or ordered by TIM personaly and if not he failed to do his job as a leader, are a extremely risky tactic. If it's uncovered, and it usualy are in Cerberus case obviously, it can create a terrible political backclash that makes it all counterproductive to the extreme. The political harm Cerberus and TIMmy could cause humanity (and they already caused a lot) with the base could potentialy end humanity as a galactic superpower and weaken all races so they can not resist the reapers.

[Barquiel]

mosor wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

TIM himself tells you that he's not going to exclusively use the base against the Reapers, hes going to use it to "secure human dominance against the Reapers and beyond." Many people feel that is also bad.

This is a good thing.  Turians solve problems by shooting at them, salarians solve problems by creating bigger ones, and asari dance and strip in the hope the person forgets there is a problem.

I prefer the asari method. Sorry, no human dominance in my universe...

[mosor]

lovgreno wrote...

Assasinations like those, probably approved or ordered by TIM personaly and if not he failed to do his job as a leader, are a extremely risky tactic. If it's uncovered, and it usualy are in Cerberus case obviously, it can create a terrible political backclash that makes it all counterproductive to the extreme. The political harm Cerberus and TIMmy could cause humanity (and they already caused a lot) with the base could potentialy end humanity as a galactic superpower and weaken all races so they can not resist the reapers.

Bah I don't buy that argument. Osama bin Laden and most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi. Saudi Arabia still gets a lot of love by the US government, while Iraq and Afganistan get bombed.  Fact is if you're needed, governments overlook groups like Cerberus and will still deal with you.

Modifié par mosor, 14 octobre 2010 - 06:50 .

[mosor]

Barquiel wrote...

mosor wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

TIM himself tells you that he's not going to exclusively use the base against the Reapers, hes going to use it to "secure human dominance against the Reapers and beyond." Many people feel that is also bad.

This is a good thing.  Turians solve problems by shooting at them, salarians solve problems by creating bigger ones, and asari dance and strip in the hope the person forgets there is a problem.

I prefer the asari method. Sorry, no human dominance in my universe...

Ha! With the asari method, I'm too distracted to save the galaxy. Especially if Aria is the one doing the stripping.

[General User]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]General User wrote...
 
I like to think of the CB as a bizarre mixture of nursery and shipyard. Hindsight being 20/20, I’m sure Harbinger would loved to have beefed up the defenses quite a bit. [/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. The defenses of the base wouldn't have mattered had whoever was in charge (or not in charge) of cleaning up Reaper corpses found the Derilect Reaperand kept the IFF out of Shepard's hands. That, more than the bases defenses, ruined the Collectors: once the IFF is in the hands of organics, any number of attempts against the base can be made, no matter how many Reapers you put behind there.
[/quote]

Yeah, who knows?  Those defenses should have mattered to Harbinger, he was in charge of creating the human-reaper after all. 

[quote]
[quote]

Why didn’t he change the Ω4 transit protocols at that point?[/quote]

Who says he can? When have the Reapers ever had that ability?

The Relay Network, after all, is described as having a control system... stationed in the Citadel. Which had never failed before the Prothean sabatoge. What need for a system to change IFFs on each individual relay? [/quote]



Do individual relays have IFFs, or is the Ω4 a special case? I thought it was.  If so there is no excuse for Harbinger not being able to override it.
Why would someone build a system that does not have the ability to do a local override? That may very well be how the relay network is designed, it just seems rather foolish design a system so. Doesn’t that mean we could theoretically lock the Reapers out of the relay network once they do finally show up in the Milky Way? Thus we could strike them when, and how, we pleased and in whatever force required.


Now I’m given to understand that the Reaper IFF worked by activating a series of advanced transit protocols which essentially drastically reduced the “drift” that normally accompanies a mass relay jump, so a ship would exit in the relatively small safe zone around the CB. 

Given the shear vastness any volume of deep space entails it may be impossible to seed occuli through even that limited zone, it would not be impossible to put the CB into lockdown and fortify key chokepoints. Or to keep the CS in space rather than dock, or to bring the occuli in closer to the base were they and the CS could support each other. 

[quote]
[quote]
More than anything else, the Reapers arrogance is put on display when they don’t assume that their enemies (protheans incl.) aren’t just as smart and capable as they are. Moreover, capable of something totally unexpected, “impossible” even. Why would anybody attack someone it a way they were expecting? I do hope they don’t continue to make the same mistakes in the future, it would just make them so one dimensional.[/quote]

Their enemies aren't as smart and capable as they are, though. And they have the vanguard watching over them (Sovereign) to know it. All the galaxy can potentially have in its favor is numbers.

Unexpected/impossible things are, by their nature, beyond prediction and posibility. More importantly, the consequences of the unexpected may not matter. [/quote]


Or the consequences of the unexpected (evolution of the keepers, Shepard activates the beacon) may matter a great deal.  That our side has been able to capitalize on the unexpected while the Reapers have been stymied by it, says a great deal about us both.

As you've said, Sovereign's (also I would add, Harbinger's) judgements (for whatever reason) are far from infallible.  The history of the Reaper Conflict, from the protheans to Shepard, would seem to indicate that the enemies of the Reapers are both smarter and more capable than the Reapers themselves. 

The prothean scientists deduced the nature of keeper evolution where as the Reapers did not. Every military victory Shepard has won so far against the Reapers so far has been won by a force which was at a technological and numerical disadvantage.  As Wrex might say, “How could it be any other way?” 

Luck is well and good, as is skill, but the Reapers have had every advantage and still consistently come up short. Either Shepard is the Goddess of Death and War reborn, or the Reapers are making serious errors. I say it’s a little of both really.


It is important to distinguish between an artificial technology “level” and intelligence, also between capabilities, and being capable. The danger a society represents to its neighbors is affected by these but is by no means dependent on them. The Yahg know all about this.[quote]
[quote]
If Sovereign could ASSUME CONTROL of the Citadel without ever entering the same room as Shepard, why didn’t he?

Was it because he didn’t want to be a sitting target for 5th Fleet? If so wouldn’t that mean Reapers are not so tough after all, and thus the CB is not so important for finding a way to beat them?

Or, why not uncouple from the tower, complete the destruction of 5th Fleet and then re-couple and finish the job, while Shepard shakes her fist angrily out the window?[/quote]


Vigil's data file preventing him for some time.

No, because you're confusing the ability to overwhelm an individual with overall superiority. Ten gangsters may be able to mug a soldier any day of the week, but when it comes to a less lopsided fight I'd put my money on the soldiers.

One Reaper and some geth tore the heart out of the galactic seat of power. Ten reapers disperse the fire, and can manage the threat more evenly and quickly. A hundred, even more. A thousand- [/quote]

An evaluation of chances that the 5th Fleet and Citadel forces is more dangerous and likely to win than Shepard.
[/quote]


Was time a factor for Sovereign? That only makes sense if he really did think 5th Fleet had a chance of taking him out, in which case opening the Citadel Relay, by going thru Shepard, may have been his only way to survive, short of admitting defeat and withdrawing. I contend that the latter would have been entirely out of place, given Sovereign’s character up to that point. 

Honestly I wish he had withdrawn. An enemy that knows their own limitations is far more interesting than one that consistently believes they are the pinnacle of creation, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Modifié par General User, 14 octobre 2010 - 07:25 .

[General User]

DOUBLE POST

Modifié par General User, 14 octobre 2010 - 07:02 .

[Zulu_DFA]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

There's no question that Cerberus's ability to help against the Reapers is diminished by destroying the base. That's bad. On the other hand, TIM himself tells you that he's not going to exclusively use the base against the Reapers, hes going to use it to "secure human dominance against the Reapers and beyond." Many people feel that is also bad.

Given Cerberus beliefs, if TIM had the base he would probably, in addition to helping against the Reapers:

Given Cerberus beliefs, if TIM is denied the Base he will probably sit back in his chair and think like this:

"We could upgrade the Mankind's capability to fight the Reapers, so that the Mankind could do the most of the job all by itself... But now we don't have the luxury. Every species will have to do their part... And the aliens must get expended first. It will be the aliens who'll pay for Shepard's fear... All right, let's get back to manipulatin'."

LookingGlass93 wrote...
1) Undermine and attack the Council, the central institution of galactic society,

Like Cerberus undermined and attacked the Council by guiding Jacob through the Galaxy?

LookingGlass93 wrote...
2) Undermine or co-opt the Alliance, the democratically elected governing body of humanity beyond Earth and outside the Terminus systems,

Democratically? Lol. Go read the Codex. The System's Alliance is a government by the corporations, of the corporations and for the corporations. If anything, it's TIM who stands up for the little guy.

LookingGlass93 wrote...
3) Potentially, and only based upon accusations from squadmates and Shepard (so no actual proof), use the base to create his own mini-Reaper. No evidence, but the dialogue could be some interesting foreshadowing, or it could be nothing.

As long as he doesn't use living Humans as the building material, what's the problem? The Reapers clearly do so due to some sort of religious considerations... Or do you think TIM liquified a few hundred Humans to build EDI?

LookingGlass93 wrote...
(2) still works even if as some say Cerberus is still a part of the Alliance, as I imagine TIM would be eager to have a larger say in decision making in the Alliance, thus supporting the movemnet of power away from an elected parliament and into the hands of an unelected paramilitary organisation.

Like he already did, when he put Charles Saracino at the helm of one of the most popular political parties in the Alliance space... Can't say it hurt the elections much.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 octobre 2010 - 08:53 .

[Elite Midget]

[Cerberus just churned out Commander Shepard himself for 4 billion credits. If it wasn't for that you wouldn't have a game to play. And lets not forget EDI and the Normandy SR2, which are both vital to your mission unlike the ship upgrades, were made by Cerberus. I'm assuming you're trying to use those upgrades as evidence of how much better the Citadel races compared to Cerberus?
Plus, the Thannix cannons were developed from reaper technology, like EDI.
Also where did you find the evidence that anyone in the Alliance excluding Anderson believed in the reapers and was trying to do anything about it?]

Cerberus churned Shepard out to push their interest. After that all they did was sit on their rears and let Shepard play with their toys while lieing to him, risking his life more than once for data, and snatching any oppertunity they can to push the Cerberus agenda. TIM even admits that the Collector Base, if it doesn't go rogue like everything else Cerberus touches, will be used for much more than just against the Reapers.
Evidence: Hackett, nuff said.
The Thanix Cannon was made by SCRAPS of Soveriegn. There was no online systems left of Soveriegn thus the risks are far smaller than a fully operational Collector Base that Harbringer has shown to be able to appear in through the systems. Hell, the ending cutscene of the base shows a holographic Harbringer addressing the Collector Commander. As an AI I doubt he wouldn't be able to access the systems of a base they had built via that method.
[Naive? I'd say it is naive for you to believe they are doing something. If the Alliance had enough evidence to act and acknowledged the threat, the other Council races would be doing the same. Nothing in ME2 indicates that they're doing anything about it; your optimism is misleading you.
If they actually believed in the reaper threat they would have told Shepard about it when they found out he was alive. It doesn't matter if they think he is working for Cerberus or not, because the threat is just that serious. Do you think they would want Shepard hanging around Cerberus if they knew (and they should) that he was only working with them in order to deal with the reapers?
I'm just starting to think you can't handle the fact that Cerberus is the only group actually helping you. I also think you came into this thread so you could attempt to justify your decision no matter how you distort the facts, rather than with an interest in an honest debate about people's reasonings. You've been fanatically anti-Cerberus from the get-go.
Is that why you chose that avatar?]

They didn't tell Shepard a thing because they can't. He's working with a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. They can't trust him with information such as that since they believe that he's furthering Cerberus' agenda. Which is why Shepard was not even told about the investigations going on or what was going down on Horizon.  It does matter because their investigations are still on going and they know better than to trust Cerberus. After all, in ME1 when the Alliance was dealing with Saren and the Geth you know what Cerberus did? KIlled an admiral, conducted many inhumane experiments, and ignored what the Geth were up to in their attacks on human settlements.

No, the Alliance wouldn't want Shepard hanging around with Cerbers PERIOD. Which is why they don't share information with him because they can't trust him as long as he's TIM's pet.
Obviously someone in the Alliance isn't ignorant or they wouldn't have sent Ashley/Kaiden or started setting up defense towers. They were conducting their own investigations on the matter of the Collectors and maybe even the Reapers. After all, Andersan was filled in on the operation and knowing him he would have pushed the Reaper subject as well. I didn't come here to justify anything because the information is there.

Active Reaper tech 100% alwatys ended with dead researchers and innocents losing their lives. The only exception of this was when the Collectors invaded the Normandy and captured the crew instead of just blowing the Normandy SR2 up. Furthermore, Cerberus has a history of repeated failures and playing the sides against eachother all in the name of information and human dominance. I'm not foolish enough to ignore all of these facts from ME1 and ME2(I wont even bring up the novels because that would unfairly make the arguement even stronger. That and not everyone read the novels or the comic series).

I'm starting to believe that you believe everything TIM tells you when he said that only HIS organization was doing anything when that's a very farfetched thing. Especially since the Citadel races have invented a bunch of new tech over a short period of time that puts Cerberus to shame. The Turians made the Thanix cannon because that's their way of preparing. They already don't trust humanity because of Cerberus and the fact that they don't care about human colonies that were created outside of the safe zones the Council has set out. If anything they believed humanity deserved it for such rapid and unsafe growth.

I'm going by what we know about Cerberus and active Reaper tech in the past. It ain't pretty. The only success story they have is getting Shepard back and telling Shepard where to go.

Are you implying something ignorant about Ashley or myself?
[Everyone thought Saren was working alone in ME1 until the reapers were discovered. Cerberus's lack of involvement in ME1 is entirely excusable because dealing with Saren and his geth was Shepard's job.
Also, where are these mass killings of humans and how were the geth gathering technology? Eden Prime was a surprise attack, Cerberus couldn't have known or done anything about that, and neither did anyone else.]
That is no excuse. Dealing with the Geth was everyones problem. Especially with all the information about Saren being spotted working with the Geth. You're giving Cerberus too little credit. With all their sources and unlimited reesources do you honestly believe that they were ignorant to everything in ME1? Not to mention that Cerberus seems to know everything that the Alliance does and knows anyway. So no, I'm not buying that it wasen't their problem. The only reason they would not have done anything, because Cerberus would know the truth, is because they were hoping to use it as a chance to push humanity as the dominiant species.

As for the technology... Virmire. They had to have gathered research data of the genophage for them to have created their cure. Not to mention that the Saren's agents, and the Geth servants, went to Noveria and Feros as well. Than there's Tali's side mission of gathering Geth data against the incursions by Geth forces. As ME2 has shown, the Heretics(Loyal to the Reapers and Saren) were the ones who carried those incursions out.
[Your behavior is not consistent with someone interested in considering other people's point of view. You've made wild exaggerations, and assumptions in order to support your point of view. A good example of this is when you twice repeated that I or someone else thought TIM and/or Cerberus was infallible and could do no wrong, etc., just because we weren't on the same side of the argument as you.
You're far too biased.]
You're being too naive to Cerberus' past and refusing to consider that Cerberus hasen't changed at all. A giant corrupt Terrprist organization known for conducting MANY inhumane experiments, killing innocents for data or to cover the tracks, and pushing human interest above the welfare of the entire galaxy. For example, attacking the Migrant Fleet. I never said that you believed Cerberus was infallible, I said you're being naive for pretending that Cerberus' past actions never happened and that they wont happen again. Don't bother throwing the bias card when the history is there against Cerberus. Especially since you're giving Cerberus a free pass.

And ignoring what Cerberus did in the past or active Reaper Tech always biting back is behavior consistent to considering the views the views of base destroyers?

[Zulu_DFA]

Elite Midget wrote...
Cerberus hasen't changed at all. A giant corrupt Terrprist organization known for conducting MANY inhumane experiments, killing innocents for data or to cover the tracks, and pushing human interest above the welfare of the entire galaxy. For example, attacking the Migrant Fleet

That's a good example indeed. The entire Galaxy sees it as a disaster, when this giant space gypsy band arrives in a civilized system. Attacking the Vagrant Fleet did not infringe the welfare of the entire Galaxy in the slightest.

BTW, there are less Quarians in the Galaxy than citizens in Tokyo.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 octobre 2010 - 09:04 .

[Elite Midget]

So you condone the unprovoked Cerberus attack that resulted in the deah of innocents because it furthered and safeguarded the Cerberus agenda?

Making unprovoked attacks is the very definition of causing chaos and instability to galatic order. After all, Cerberus has shown that they could care less about laws, regulation, or what the galactic order thinks. Their inaction in ME1, as well as numerous experiments, has shown that they prefer watching from the shadows and letting everyone else do the fighting so they can gather the scraps to further their agenda. After all, Cerberus helped themselves to a fair share of Soveriegn scraps even though they didn't contribute at all to saving the galaxy that time.

[Zulu_DFA]

I don't condone it. Because it failed. It's actually a rare example of TIM's undeniable error. See, although he was already having his doubts, he put too much trust in Paul Grayson that last time.



So yes, TIM is not infallible. However, he seems to be, so to say, the least fallible person Shepard gets to meet over the course of ME1&2.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Casuist wrote...

Per EDI, we know that there are never more than a dozen Cerberus cells in existence for the specific reason that TIM likes to maintain personal oversight, and we also receive the information that the approximate composition of Cerberus at gametime was three cells and 150 operatives (at least a third of which must have been dead by the end of the game ). In both Ascension and Retribution he is heavily involved with Cerberus activities taking place.

Oversight which requires reports made by the Cerberus cell leaders to TIM so he can be updated as to what's going on.  Such reports can be doctored or ignored... and have been (reference Teltin facility).  He never micromanages a mission, he gives broad, clear objectives and the cell leaders are expected to achieve that objective with the resources they have.

ummm.... what operatives on what ground are you referring to? There isn't any lifesaving going on. They were tasked to recover Gillian and blow up a ship manned by 700 innocent bystanders. TIM was aware of the operation and approved it. 

If you're talking about the Idenna, you can't attack a large ship, take one of their passengers, and expect them not to follow you.  Blow up the ship when you leave and they can't follow... that would be the logic.  Also, the explosion would cripple the ship... not destroy it/blow it up.

...and you've suggested that he may not be personally responsible for either Akuze or the deaths of Kahoku and his marines, positions for which you have no evidence. Given that TIM likes to maintain oversight, the safer assumption and vastly more likely scenario is that he does bear some personal responsibility.

Even in the scenario you espouse- where he simply tasks cell leaders and then washes his hands of the projects - he would then bear responsibility for putting those people in that position and dictating moral boundaries.

Not in the manner it was done.  He may have given the overarching order, but how they tortured, tested (the methods included), or executed subjects would likely/realistically/logically be entirely up to the operative on the ground.  TIM also doesn't wash his hands of things after he gives tasks; he expects progress reports and shuts operations down if they become a risk or things go too far.  It's been documented multiple times where operatives (in fear of being shut down) do desperate dirty things off the books to try and meet quota before they're done.  No getting around that, so with that in mind you could wonder how many times an incident like that occurred... and consequently how much Cerberus should actually be blamed for. 

Case and point:  Lazaurus project...  When Shepard woke up early and Miranda ordered another seditive... that was not TIM's decision... that was Miranda's decision.  TIM doesn't micromanage things like that.

How involved was he with you? Answer: He bugged the entire ship to be aware of every action taken. He filed mission reports/summaries at every turn, gave you personal commentary on your decisions on several instances and gave you mission assignments in "person" several more times. 

Your "plausible deniability" argument is heavily dependent on TIM being vastly less involved in other projects than he is with you

"With you" is the point you're missing and this is not plausable deniability.  He gives you broad objectives and if he himself finds something, he passes that along.  What missions do you do aboard the Normandy?  There he can only watch what your crew does but not any missions you carry out.  He also never micromanages how you achieve an objective... even with this "increased involvement."  Someone watching you doesn't equate to actually being involved with you.. and even then it's only on his ship that he can watch you... otherwise he can only go off of reports sent by Miranda.

You should understand that TIM is not omnipresent or omniscient... he has to take in data like everyone else to base his decisions and judgements on.

2171 - Pope Clement XVI assassinated via rosary beads coated with sodium nonacetate and dimethyl sulfoxide. Death attributed to age and heart failure. Replacement, Pope Leo XIV, has eschatological beliefs in-line with militarizing humanity; forgiving attitude to salarians re: genophage proves useful for strategic alliances against turians.
...
2174 - Radium placed inside office chair of Systems Alliance parliamentarian Artyom Gavrikov. Gavrikov's death attributed to cancer. Emergency election much cheaper to manipulate than normal process. Cerberus-backed candidate loses; winning candidate approached, found susceptible to bribes.
...
2175 - Michael Moser Lang approached by operatives in militia community -- insider information given for stock buy to provide him with funding. Contact severed, but electronic surveillance remains. Lang purchases armaments.
2176 - Electronic surveillance removed from Lang's home. Lang kills Enrique Aguilar and Ying Xiong. Resulting approval bump for Vice-President Belknap allows passage of financial reform bill allowing for increased loopholes in colony-based shell companies. Fighting among Vice-Premiers a bonus, as Lin Yi alienates Politburo Standing Committee and his chances of election to the Systems Alliance Parliament are dashed.
...
2182 - MSV Anixara sabotaged. Catalyst added to metastable metallic hydrogen fuel by timer injection. Ship breaks apart during FTL, all hands aboard lost, turian Hierarchy hawk Raherix Ursivus killed in the process. Explosion attributed to faulty engineering.

Those could very well be Cerberus... or the Shadowbroker... as they too aren't beyond doing such things and are an enemy of Cerberus.  They're also not above placing blame on them (refer to rogue asari spectre's comment on blaming Cerberus for events in Lair of the Shadowbroker DLC)   Being objective on that one.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 14 octobre 2010 - 09:48 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

@Elite Midget: The Collector Base is not fully operational if you keep it (as its organic part would be destroyed by the radiation pulse), it's just intact.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]LookingGlass93 wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because...?

Generalizations again.
 
Does TIM have better hardware without the base?

Does TIM have better software without the base?

Does TIM have better technology insights without the base?

Does TIM have better systems to handoff to the Alliance without the Base?

Does TIM have better information and insight about the Reapers without the base?

Does TIM have more willing partners in the Alliance and Council, partners willing to work with him that wouldn't otherwise, without the Base?

[/quote]

There's no question that Cerberus's ability to help against the Reapers is diminished by destroying the base. That's bad. On the other hand, TIM himself tells you that he's not going to exclusively use the base against the Reapers, hes going to use it to "secure human dominance against the Reapers and beyond." Many people feel that is also bad.

Given Cerberus beliefs, if TIM had the base he would probably, in addition to helping against the Reapers:

1) Undermine and attack the Council, the central institution of galactic society,[/quote]First, why would he do this before the Reapers?

Second, why is undermining that influence racket such a terrible thing at all?
[quote]
2) Undermine or co-opt the Alliance, the democratically elected governing body of humanity beyond Earth and outside the Terminus systems,[/quote]Undermine in what sense?

[quote]
3) Potentially, and only based upon accusations from squadmates and Shepard (so no actual proof), use the base to create his own mini-Reaper. No evidence, but the dialogue could be some interesting foreshadowing, or it could be nothing.[/quote]None of the teammates accuse him of going to create a reaper. They just don't trust him in general. Only Shepard can accuse him of it, and he gives his boilerplate anser for it.

The reasons why we don't need to fear mass abductions, however, are numerous.

[uote]
(2) still works even if as some say Cerberus is still a part of the Alliance, as I imagine TIM would be eager to have a larger say in decision making in the Alliance, thus supporting the movemnet of power away from an elected parliament and into the hands of an unelected paramilitary organisation.

[/quote]TIM already has large amounts of sway, and doesn't directly interfere with the day to day matters. What changes?

[Casuist]

Those could very well be Cerberus... or the Shadowbroker... as they too aren't beyond doing such things and are an enemy of Cerberus. They're also not above placing blame on them (refer to rogue asari spectre's comment on blaming Cerberus for events in Lair of the Shadowbroker DLC) Being objective on that one.

So your saying the shadow broker's internal files, never intended to be looked at by anyone but himself, are falsified to blame things on Cerberus?

If you're talking about the Idenna, you can't attack a large ship, take one of their passengers, and expect them not to follow you. Blow up the ship when you leave and they can't follow... that would be the logic. Also, the explosion would cripple the ship... not destroy it/blow it up.

Cripple, not destroy? I think you need to reread Ascension.



I'm also not sure why you're trying to tactically justify the action... doesn't make it any less of a crime.

"With you" is the point you're missing and this is not plausable deniability. He gives you broad objectives and if he himself finds something, he passes that along. What missions do you do aboard the Normandy? There he can only watch what your crew does but not any missions you carry out. He also never micromanages how you achieve an objective... even with this "increased involvement." Someone watching you doesn't equate to actually being involved with you.. and even then it's only on his ship that he can watch you... otherwise he can only go off of reports sent by Miranda.

So, either TIM is responsible for very little that Cerberus does on a day to day basis, but is responsible for selecting and empowering cell leaders who commit heinous acts, or he is responsible directly. I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with the evidence of Ascension and Retribution and other sources which demonstrate quite clearly that he is, himself, a murderer, kidnapper and all around *****. All this clearly does not support your original contention that Cerberus is not "extreme" - and either by direct action OR BY NEGLIGENCE it is clear TIM has earned the reputation we have given him.



TIM: Alright boys, it's time... I'll give you unlimited funding. Go out and pet all the cute kittens in the Universe. (leaves the room)

Archer: I think I'll torture my autistic brother.

Akuze cell leader: My petting kittens authority clearly covers the nurturing of thresher maws. I hear alliance marines are nutritious.

Pragia cell leader: I think I'll kidnap torture and kill biotic children (some of them are bound to be kitten-abusers) and if I keep the rate of child death to a moderate level TIM won't get too mad at me. He's enabling that way.

[Elite Midget]

The base is still fuly intact and functional. All that has changed is the Collectors are replaced with Cerberus fanatics who are messing with things far beyond their comprehension. Like every Reaper tech that Cerberus has ever touched it will end up with dead researchers and innocents through their inhumane experiments.

The only time that the Reaper tech ever turned out beneficial was when Shepard came into contact with it. Like how the crew was captured because Cerberus failed and it was up to Shepard to turn a bad situation into a good one. However, since Shepard is no Researcher it means that Sheprd wont be breathing down the necks of Cerberus personell and their experiments. Which is why Cerberus NEVER sends Shepard to any active experiments occuring and only calls Shepard when something bad happens.

Which, I might add, is a very common occurance.

Shandepared wrote...

Unprovoked? The Migrant Fleet was knowningly harboring Cerberus property.

Not everyone of the Migrant Fleet did. Even than, that attack was mishandled, like practically everthing Cerberus does, and was uncalled for. There were other options than 'Hey, let's attack the Migrant Fleet! and any Innocent life lost is of no consern'! It also backs up my point that Cerberus hates sharing and will kill anyone and everything to safeguard and push forward their radical agenda.