2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Casuist wrote...
So your saying the shadow broker's internal files, never intended to be looked at by anyone but himself, are falsified to blame things on Cerberus?

You think he saves information for a private collection or something?  He's an information broker, his internal files would be big things either as a contingency against Cerberus or something to be bought at a high price but kept close to chest.

Cripple, not destroy? I think you need to reread Ascension.

I'm also not sure why you're trying to tactically justify the action... doesn't make it any less of a crime.

I only read the wiki regarding it, on there they said it would blow a hole in the Idenna and cripple the ship, it wouldn't blow it to smitherines.  Also, as part of a rescue mission I'm not trying to justify their actions per-se, I'm saying that's why they would do it... it wasn't some "and since we're evil, lets blow up the ship while we're at it" choice.  A distinction I felt needed to be made...

Cerberus would need to prevent the ship they attacked from following them when they left.

So, either TIM is responsible for very little that Cerberus does on a day to day basis, but is responsible for selecting and empowering cell leaders who commit heinous acts, or he is responsible directly. I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with the evidence of Ascension and Retribution and other sources which demonstrate quite clearly that he is, himself, a murderer, kidnapper and all around *****. All this clearly does not support your original contention that Cerberus is not "extreme" - and either by direct action OR BY NEGLIGENCE it is clear TIM has earned the reputation we have given him.

It's not negligence either, he literally can't do anything else to ensure an operation goes smoothly without compromising himself.  He's in a self-incriminating cycle but that doesn't mean the results are all his fault.  As a matter of fact, it's been proven to be otherwise.  As I said before, operating outside of the law attracks people who are outside of the law.  You're going to likely have a higher defection/problem rate with Cerberus operatives than you would with a government one.  TIM also is the most cautious character we've encountered in the Mass Effect universe thusfar.  He rarely meets face-to-face with anyone and does not jeapardize himself by physically being present in most missions.  Most people don't even know what TIM looks like.

TIM: Alright boys, it's time... I'll give you unlimited funding. Go out and pet all the cute kittens in the Universe. (leaves the room)
Archer: I think I'll torture my autistic brother.

Archer came to that decision because the project was about to be shut down (by TIM based on the data he recieved, oversight ftw) and so he felt the need to force his brother into the hotseat in order to prevent that.  Can't really blame that on Cerberus.

Akuze cell leader: My petting kittens authority clearly covers the nurturing of thresher maws. I hear alliance marines are nutritious.

That was a strange test and it's possible that TIM may have been involved with this.  But it's also more possible to me that he wasn't.  Did TIM tell Mordin how to test and counteract the Seeker Swarms?  I don't believe so.  Mordin's objective was simply "Counteract the Seeker Swarms."

Another thing to consider.  The Teltin facility was a secret facility.  Shutting it down would happen for no other reason but for the bad things that occurred there.  Political backlash is non-existent.

Pragia cell leader: I think I'll kidnap torture and kill biotic children (some of them are bound to be kitten-abusers) and if I keep the rate of child death to a moderate level TIM won't get too mad at me. He's enabling that way.

Same thing, most of the children are said to have been taken from Batarian pirates while others still were bought from poor families.  Only a tiny fraction were actually stolen or abducted.  TIM's way to get what he wants is usually money.  The kidnapping may have been an act of desperation to replace kids that died in their tests.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 14 octobre 2010 - 10:42 .

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...
Do individual relays have IFFs, or is the Ω4 a special case? I thought it was.  If so there is no excuse for Harbinger not being able to override it.

The implication from the first game as well is that all the relays can accept the IFF for full access: they turn off all relays through the Citadel, but Reaper IFF allows them to use the network at will. Also, presumably, the relays access their full potential, allowing greater mobility, less drift, etc.

For most the relays, it's convenience (or, rather, unlimited utility). For the Omega 4, it's life or death.

Why would someone build a system that does not have the ability to do a local override? That may very well be how the relay network is designed, it just seems rather foolish design a system so.

A lack of need. Centralization. When the Reapers need to cut off a relay, they could always tell the Keepers to do so through the Relay Network master control system. And that worked.

And now it doesn't.

Doesn’t that mean we could theoretically lock the Reapers out of the
relay network once they do finally show up in the Milky Way? Thus we
could strike them when, and how, we pleased and in whatever force
required.

Only if there were a way to nullify the Reaper IFF and change it. Which may not be possible at all, and part of why they don't 'change' the IFF.

Now I’m given to understand that the Reaper IFF worked by activating a series of advanced transit protocols which essentially drastically reduced the “drift” that normally accompanies a mass relay jump, so a ship would exit in the relatively small safe zone around the CB. 

Given the shear vastness any volume of deep space entails it may be impossible to seed occuli through even that limited zone, it would not be impossible to put the CB into lockdown and fortify key chokepoints. Or to keep the CS in space rather than dock, or to bring the occuli in closer to the base were they and the CS could support each other.

Except the galactic core is a special case in that it is not great volume of space: it's a relatively small area. It's not like you can simply fly through the blackholes to get there.

Or the consequences of the unexpected (evolution of the keepers, Shepard activates the beacon) may matter a great deal.  That our side has been able to capitalize on the unexpected while the Reapers have been stymied by it, says a great deal about us both.

How much have the Reapers truly been stymied, though?

As you've said, Sovereign's (also I would add, Harbinger's) judgements (for whatever reason) are far from infallible.  The history of the Reaper Conflict, from the protheans to Shepard, would seem to indicate that the enemies of the Reapers are both smarter and more capable than the Reapers themselves.

No argument that they are infallible, but failing doesn't necessitate complacency or arrogance.

In this case, I suppose I should make a point that 'smart' can be taken a number of interpretations: I'll take 'knowledge', for example, as opposed to 'clever', which they aren't lacking either. Whether, say, the Illusive Man is more clever than Sovereign, or is in a better position in this case, is far more debatable.

But more capable? What has Shepard ever done that the Collectors and Reapers were incapable of doing?

The prothean scientists deduced the nature of keeper evolution where as the Reapers did not. Every military victory Shepard has won so far against the Reapers so far has been won by a force which was at a technological and numerical disadvantage.  As Wrex might say, “How could it be any other way?”

Excuse me? The protehans deduced the nature of keeper evolution when the Reapers did not? In what sense? The Reapers are the nature of the keeper evolution.

If you're referring to how the Protheans were able to change the Keepers, that's not a matter of superiority. The Ilos was lost to the system and overlooked, and after the Reapers left the last Protheans made their move, which by its nature wouldn't be noticable until it the Keepers didn't respond. How is that superior cunning or ability, as opposed to a good move that, due to nature and position, wouldn't be noticed? Once they realized it, Sovereign and the Reapers understood the reason why it failed.


Technological and numerical, but not qualitative and situational advantages. Shepard is a better fighter than the Reapers allies of Geth, Krogan, Collectors. Sure. But Shepard didn't exactly Sovereign himself either, and in fighting Sovereign's corpse it was Shepard who had more men.

Luck is well and good, as is skill, but the Reapers have had every advantage and still consistently come up short. Either Shepard is the Goddess of Death and War reborn, or the Reapers are making serious errors. I say it’s a little of both really.

More the first than the second, and they didn't have every advantage. Quite a few disadvantages, really.

Was time a factor for Sovereign? That only makes sense if he really did think 5th Fleet had a chance of taking him out, in which case opening the Citadel Relay, by going thru Shepard, may have been his only way to survive, short of admitting defeat and withdrawing. I contend that the latter would have been entirely out of place, given Sovereign’s character up to that point.

Out of place, but not an unreasonable position either. Sovereign may not have been in a position to withdraw either, even if it wanted to.

If it wanted to, which wouldn't be necessary either. The assault was a comitment, and no other chance would ever be as good once the Organics were aware of the Reapers presence, and the Conduit backdoor. The entire reason Sovereign hadn't attacked earlier was due to a front assault being too dangerous, and as time goes, tech advances, the backdoor is sealed off, and the Organics are prepared, what could be a better chance than now?

Honestly I wish he had withdrawn. An enemy that knows their own limitations is far more interesting than one that consistently believes they are the pinnacle of creation, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Knowing those limitations are likely why he did attack now, and did stay.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 octobre 2010 - 10:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Casuist wrote...

Those could very well be Cerberus... or the Shadowbroker... as they too aren't beyond doing such things and are an enemy of Cerberus. They're also not above placing blame on them (refer to rogue asari spectre's comment on blaming Cerberus for events in Lair of the Shadowbroker DLC) Being objective on that one.

So your saying the shadow broker's internal files, never intended to be looked at by anyone but himself, are falsified to blame things on Cerberus?

Funily enough, this same argument has been made of the computer data on the Collector Base and Collector Ship.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Casuist wrote...

Those could very well be Cerberus... or the Shadowbroker... as they too aren't beyond doing such things and are an enemy of Cerberus. They're also not above placing blame on them (refer to rogue asari spectre's comment on blaming Cerberus for events in Lair of the Shadowbroker DLC) Being objective on that one.

So your saying the shadow broker's internal files, never intended to be looked at by anyone but himself, are falsified to blame things on Cerberus?

Funily enough, this same argument has been made of the computer data on the Collector Base and Collector Ship.

Information documented is supposed to be looked at, otherwise there's really no use in documenting it.  Someone uses it or intends to use it.

Granted it may be "classified" and require certain requirements be met before seeing the data.  But still, it's supposed to be seen and expected to be shared (at some point).

For the Collector Base, the information would be for the use of the internal staff.  ShadowBroker's incriminating Cereberus intel wouldn't have such a use... it's for incrimination and incrimination only.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 14 octobre 2010 - 10:48 .

[Casuist]

Funily enough, this same argument has been made of the computer data on the Collector Base and Collector Ship.

Not by me. {{shrug}}



>>>>did I really say "your" for you're??? That'll learn me to be writing two things at the same time.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Want to add btw, that this is a nice healthy discussion, impressed to see people on this board rationalizing things and entertaining ideas.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 14 octobre 2010 - 10:51 .

[Elite Midget]

Shandepared wrote...

So what other options were there?

Maybe an Assassination? Sleeper agents? Hireing an assassin? Blackmail to get to Gillian? Sure those take longer and more money but they would have averted the loss of innocent life. Obviously TIM didn't care about the other options, like he doesn't care what his cells do, just as long as he gets results as quickly as possible.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 14 octobre 2010 - 11:11 .

[Elite Midget]

For the guards... Besides, I doubt Gillian would even want to go back with Cerberus. Hence the option of killing Gillian(Of course, that falls into the killling of innocents part that Cerberus loves to do) as well. After all, wasen't she being protected from Cerberus and the others that planned to use Gillian?



If anything it just further cements that the Quarians were just doing the right thing and that Cerberus was up to no good just like they always are.

[Dean_the_Young]

Elite Midget wrote...

For the guards... Besides, I doubt Gillian would even want to go back with Cerberus. Hence the option of killing Gillian(Of course, that falls into the killling of innocents part that Cerberus loves to do) as well. After all, wasen't she being protected from Cerberus and the others that planned to use Gillian?

If anything it just further cements that the Quarians were just doing the right thing and that Cerberus was up to no good just like they always are.

Well, my two Shepards are very glad they were up to no good in bringing him and her back from the dead, and then being crucial to saving millions from the Collectors. The galaxy needs more of that kind of no good.

[Arijharn]

Elite Midget, I suggest you sacrifice your Shephard for the good of all because you were brought back by Cerberus and thus can not be truly capable of performing good deeds because of this. Miranda says that TIM wouldn't allow her to put a control chip in your brain but how can you be really sure? She's Cerberus, thus evil, and can not be trusted at all.

[Dean_the_Young]

Arijharn wrote...

Elite Midget, I suggest you sacrifice your Shephard for the good of all because you were brought back by Cerberus and thus can not be truly capable of performing good deeds because of this. Miranda says that TIM wouldn't allow her to put a control chip in your brain but how can you be really sure? She's Cerberus, thus evil, and can not be trusted at all.

My Renegade would never trust Miranda to defect from Cerberus. She's too smart.

And Jacob's too nice. Clearly an act to get past your defenses. An honest Cerberus agent is an oxymoron, and while Jacob's oxy he ain't a moron, so he must be lying, just telling us what we want to hear.

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Not everyone of the Migrant Fleet did. Even than, that attack was mishandled, like practically everthing Cerberus does, and was uncalled for.

So what other options were there?

Well, TIM always could try to negotiate a bargain. But the God (aka Drew Karpyshyn) had him erroneously think that he could trust Grayson, and use him to achieve the goal faster, cheaper and more reliably.

[Elite Midget]

When did I say that I trusted Miranda? She was quick to turn on Cerberus at the end of ME2 and the only reason she turned was not because she thought Cerberus was bad or that she didn't approve of the inhumane experiments but that she didn't like being used.



At least I can trust TIM to be a selfish self-centered radical terrorist that will do anything to push his agenda.

[Nightwriter]

Why must we hate on Cerberus operatives?? Seriously, I don't support Cerberus but I can totally separate the organization from its well-meaning operatives. TIM can't be trusted but it doesn't mean Kelly needs to be set on fire and roasted.

[Casuist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
You think he saves information for a private collection or something?  He's an information broker, his internal files would be big things either as a contingency against Cerberus or something to be bought at a high price but kept close to chest.

Um, YES. The purpose of personal files not intended for others to read is to generally keep records of information accurately.

I only read the wiki regarding it, on there they said it would blow a hole in the Idenna and cripple the ship, it wouldn't blow it to smitherines.  Also, as part of a rescue mission I'm not trying to justify their actions per-se, I'm saying that's why they would do it... it wasn't some "and since we're evil, lets blow up the ship while we're at it" choice.  A distinction I felt needed to be made...

Cerberus would need to prevent the ship they attacked from following them when they left.

Rereading, the claim is that the explosion would have killed "dozens, if not hundreds" - so it seems your "cripple" claim is more accurate... but then, the possibility of "hundreds" reaffirms my comment. Your above distinction is irrelevant. You asked for examples of "extreme" acts. You received them. Those acts fulfilling some tactical purpose doesn't make them somehow benevolent.

It's not negligence either, he literally can't do anything else to ensure an operation goes smoothly without compromising himself.

Hiring better people? Not setting an example of murder, kidnapping and torture being acceptable?

Archer came to that decision because the project was about to be shut down (by TIM based on the data he recieved, oversight ftw) and so he felt the need to force his brother into the hotseat in order to prevent that.  Can't really blame that on Cerberus.

Archer and his colleagues being members of Cerberus- I certainly can. Blame directly on TIM? No, but then, I've never argued that he made that decision personally.

Akuze cell leader: My petting kittens authority clearly covers the nurturing of thresher maws. I hear alliance marines are nutritious.

That was a strange test and it's possible that TIM may have been involved with this.  But it's also more possible to me that he wasn't.  Did TIM tell Mordin how to test and counteract the Seeker Swarms?  I don't believe so.  Mordin's objective was simply "Counteract the Seeker Swarms."

TIM: I see here you massacred a team of alliance marines. Naughty. You still have one alive, then? Putting acid in his bloodstream? Ah. Naughty. Carry on.

Another thing to consider.  The Teltin facility was a secret facility.  Shutting it down would happen for no other reason but for the bad things that occurred there.  Political backlash is non-existent.

Pragia cell leader: I think I'll kidnap torture and kill biotic children (some of them are bound to be kitten-abusers) and if I keep the rate of child death to a moderate level TIM won't get too mad at me. He's enabling that way.

More so the fact that it was not a particularly successful operation. As Jack accurately states, we have no evidence what was being kept from TIM and have no means of knowing why he ordered the facility shut down... if we take him at his word.

Of course, it's funny that I'm willing to take him at his word and look at things in the best possible light- and that he's still a murderer, kidnapper and ****. And you are, on the other end, rejecting any amount of blame that does not involve video evidence of him pulling the trigger.

Same thing, most of the children are said to have been taken from Batarian pirates while others still were bought from poor families.

Heartwarming. Seriously. Here, frankie, we've paid your parents good money. Have a lollipop while we use you as a test subject. You may feel a little sting, and you may end up slightly dead.

Modifié par Casuist, 14 octobre 2010 - 11:55 .

[Inverness Moon]

[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Cerberus churned Shepard out to push their interest. After that all they did was sit on their rears and let Shepard play with their toys while lieing to him, risking his life more than once for data, and snatching any oppertunity they can to push the Cerberus agenda. TIM even admits that the Collector Base, if it doesn't go rogue like everything else Cerberus touches, will be used for much more than just against the Reapers.[/quote]Cerberus churned out Shepard to deal with the collectors and the reapers. And he sure as hell dealed with the collectors. So that operation was a success.

Let's not forget that Cerberus discovered the location of the reaper IFF and retrieved it so Shepard could easily get it. If Cerberus hadn't done that Shepard probably wouldn't have found a way through the Omega 4 Relay.

Additionally, they gave Shepard his ship, his life-saving AI, and the dossiers on everyone but Legion.

TIM lied to Shepard so he wouldn't tip of the collectors that he knew it was a trap in any number of ways. TIM was obviously confident in Shepard's abilities and his confidence wasn't misplaced. You don't have to like it, but even Mordin agrees it was necessary, no?
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Evidence: Hackett, nuff said.[/quote]Uh no, certainly not enough said. You've provided no evidence. You've basically just blatantly admitted that you have no evidence and just made it up because that is how you want things to be and not necessarily how they are.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

The Thanix Cannon was made by SCRAPS of Soveriegn. There was no online systems left of Soveriegn thus the risks are far smaller than a fully operational Collector Base that Harbringer has shown to be able to appear in through the systems. Hell, the ending cutscene of the base shows a holographic Harbringer addressing the Collector Commander. As an AI I doubt he wouldn't be able to access the systems of a base they had built via that method.[/quote]The derelict reaper had been dead for millions of years yet was still able to indoctrinate. Don't pretend to know the risks involved in dealing with Sovereign's remains just because you haven't heard of anything bad happening as a result yet.

The collector base is also not a reaper, so you can't assume it can indoctrinate.

Harbinger was not addressing the Collector General in the ending cutscene, he was possessing it and monologuing about Shepard before he released control of the general and returned to dark space.

Also, if you had read Retribution you'd know how Harbinger was possessing the collector general and why he is no longer able to if you save the base.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

They didn't tell Shepard a thing because they can't. He's working with a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. They can't trust him with information such as that since they believe that he's furthering Cerberus' agenda. Which is why Shepard was not even told about the investigations going on or what was going down on Horizon.  It does matter because their investigations are still on going and they know better than to trust Cerberus. After all, in ME1 when the Alliance was dealing with Saren and the Geth you know what Cerberus did? KIlled an admiral, conducted many inhumane experiments, and ignored what the Geth were up to in their attacks on human settlements.[/quote]It doesn't matter who he is working with. The reaper threat is too great for crappy excuses like that. If the Alliance was serious about the reapers they wouldn't complain about who he was working with.

And they can't trust him enough? He saved everyone's lives two years ago and now they throw him out like garbage without even bothering to ASK why he would work with Cerberus. The problem would kind of solve itself if they asked and found out that Shepard was only working with Cerberus in order to deal with the reapers, it'd be pretty goddamn easy to convince him to come work with the Alliance again in their efforts to combat the reapers. But that is not what they're doing, they're ignoring the reaper threat completing, so Shepard would have no reason to stop working with Cerberus.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

No, the Alliance wouldn't want Shepard hanging around with Cerbers PERIOD. Which is why they don't share information with him because they can't trust him as long as he's TIM's pet.
Obviously someone in the Alliance isn't ignorant or they wouldn't have sent Ashley/Kaiden or started setting up defense towers. They were conducting their own investigations on the matter of the Collectors and maybe even the Reapers. After all, Andersan was filled in on the operation and knowing him he would have pushed the Reaper subject as well. I didn't come here to justify anything because the information is there.[/quote]
TIM's pet? Stop exaggerating.

Anderson certainly had a had in investigating the colony abductions, probably hoping for evidence he could use to convince the Alliance to get off their asses and do something.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Active Reaper tech 100% alwatys ended with dead researchers and innocents losing their lives. The only exception of this was when the Collectors invaded the Normandy and captured the crew instead of just blowing the Normandy SR2 up. Furthermore, Cerberus has a history of repeated failures and playing the sides against eachother all in the name of information and human dominance. I'm not foolish enough to ignore all of these facts from ME1 and ME2(I wont even bring up the novels because that would unfairly make the arguement even stronger. That and not everyone read the novels or the comic series).[/quote]I don't see where you're going with this. Cowering away from reaper technology isn't going to make it less dangerous. When the reapers get here they ARE going to use it to exterminate us. Cerberus is right to try to figure out relevant aspects of it before the war really starts.

Also, you are foolish enough to selectively ignore the good Cerberus has done in order to emphasize the bad. Hell, you even make fabrications to try to support your assertion that Cerberus is useless, etc.

No matter what you say, it's not going to change the fact that they're the reason you were able to defeat the collectors in ME2, and they're the only ones that have been doing anything to combat the reapers in the last 2 years. You'll have to grow up and deal with it sooner or later.

[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

I'm starting to believe that you believe everything TIM tells you when he said that only HIS organization was doing anything when that's a very farfetched thing. Especially since the Citadel races have invented a bunch of new tech over a short period of time that puts Cerberus to shame. The Turians made the Thanix cannon because that's their way of preparing. They already don't trust humanity because of Cerberus and the fact that they don't care about human colonies that were created outside of the safe zones the Council has set out. If anything they believed humanity deserved it for such rapid and unsafe growth.[/quote]Of course you'd think that, you like to make all sorts of unfounded assumptions and exaggerations. The Thannix cannon was made by reverse engineering Sovereign's main gun, as I said before. The turians only deserve partial credit for being the first to salvage it.

Also, the fact that the stuff Cerberus has built is vital to your mission and that fancy technology you're talking about isn't rather undermines your argument.

But I also find it amusing that you would compare the research and development capabilities of Cerberus, which consists of 150 people, to entire races. You can compliment the other races all you want, but none of them brought Shepard back from the dead, none of them built a new stealth ship for him, and none of them created an AI based on reaper technology that was instrumental in the success of the mission. Those are undeniable facts.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Are you implying something ignorant about Ashley or myself?[/quote]I'm implying that you're behaving like Ashley in how you're too focused on Cerberus to see the real threat or consider what other people have to say.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

That is no excuse. Dealing with the Geth was everyones problem. Especially with all the information about Saren being spotted working with the Geth. You're giving Cerberus too little credit. With all their sources and unlimited reesources do you honestly believe that they were ignorant to everything in ME1? Not to mention that Cerberus seems to know everything that the Alliance does and knows anyway. So no, I'm not buying that it wasen't their problem. The only reason they would not have done anything, because Cerberus would know the truth, is because they were hoping to use it as a chance to push humanity as the dominiant species.[/quote]If you'd had read the books you'd know TIM was ignorant about the reapers until after the Battle of the Citadel. From that point on he devoted all of his resources into finding a way to stop them while the rest of the galaxy turned the reapers into some boogeymen to scare little children in bedtime stories (not literally, I don't believe).

Cerberus also does not have unlimited resources, there is no such thing. And why not explain how they would find out about everything that was going on with Saren? What makes you think the Alliance knew either? It's not like there is another human spectre out there that feeds Cerberus information (which will probably be the case in the future).

Also, we know Cerberus is spread out into different cells with different tasks. Do you think they should all just drop what they're doing to deal with Saren, which is Shepard's job. Shepard is the one that was getting the intel about Saren from the Council and others, not Cerberus. Also, why the hell would they want to get mixed up with a spectre and interfere with his mission? That would only bring the Council's attention directly to them.

[quote]Elite Midget wrote...
As for the technology... Virmire. They had to have gathered research data of the genophage for them to have created their cure. Not to mention that the Saren's agents, and the Geth servants, went to Noveria and Feros as well. Than there's Tali's side mission of gathering Geth data against the incursions by Geth forces. As ME2 has shown, the Heretics(Loyal to the Reapers and Saren) were the ones who carried those incursions out.[/quote]None of that is the "mass killings" that you're talking about. Also, in the case of Virmire, the Council sent the STG's to Virmire to investigate, then sent Shepard to investigate them when they couldn't get a signal out. There is nowhere in there that Cerberus could have done anything other than get in the way.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

You're being too naive to Cerberus' past and refusing to consider that Cerberus hasen't changed at all. A giant corrupt Terrprist organization known for conducting MANY inhumane experiments, killing innocents for data or to cover the tracks, and pushing human interest above the welfare of the entire galaxy. For example, attacking the Migrant Fleet. I never said that you believed Cerberus was infallible, I said you're being naive for pretending that Cerberus' past actions never happened and that they wont happen again. Don't bother throwing the bias card when the history is there against Cerberus. Especially since you're giving Cerberus a free pass.[/quote]If you think I'm being naive about Cerberus's past then you're once again making assumptions about my point of view just because I don't agree with you. I also never pretended Cerberus's past actions never happened or that they wouldn't happen again.

What I'm doing here is realizing that if we don't put as much effort as possible into stopping the reapers, we're all ****ing dead. That means you can't afford to be picky about who your allies are. I don't care if TIM eats babies for breakfast every day, I'd still wait until after the reapers are dealt with to go after him, because TIM not nearly as much of a threat as the reapers. And until the reapers are dealt with I'm not going to do a single thing to hinder Cerberus if it means lowering our chances of defeating the reapers.

Unlike you I'm capable of putting my issues with Cerberus on hold while the greater threat is deal with.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

And ignoring what Cerberus did in the past or active Reaper Tech always biting back is behavior consistent to considering the views the views of base destroyers?[/quote]I've considered the views of the base destroyers and I've judged them to not be as focused on the reapers as they should be.

The reapers have been perpetuating a cycle of extinction for tens of millions of years with hundreds of trillions in casualties at the very least. if you don't give it everything you have you could end up erased from history just like every other species before you. TIM is not nearly as much of a threat as the reapers, so I will save the base and give it to him even if there is no guarantee that a massive problem won't occur, because there is still a chance that the base could end up saving us in the end. And our odds against the reapers are too low to ignore that chance. That is why I do not destroy the base.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Why must we hate on Cerberus operatives?? Seriously, I don't support Cerberus but I can totally separate the organization from its well-meaning operatives. TIM can't be trusted but it doesn't mean Kelly needs to be set on fire and roasted.

Don't be so naive. Kelly is definitely the evilest of them all, second only to TIM himslelf. So she must be roasted the first (because face it, you can't roast TIM).

[Nightwriter]

I will hold with no Kelly-roasting. Kelly is nice.

[Zulu_DFA]

Inverness Moon wrote...

TIM lied to Shepard so he wouldn't tip of the collectors that he knew it was a trap in any number of ways. TIM was obviously confident in Shepard's abilities and his confidence wasn't misplaced. You don't have to like it, but even Mordin agrees it was necessary, no?

Yes.

And I think Mordin knew what he's talking about.

A few pages back I suggested that it could be Garrus who snitched for the Shadow Broker on the Normandy, but now I think that TSB got his on-Normandy intel from leaks in the STG, to whom Mordin was feeding updates on the Shepard's mission progress all the time. And TIM was counting on it (see Pope Leo Something's story in the "Cerberus" dossier at TSB's). Hence, all the "need-to-know basis" policies and Mordin's understanding.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

I will hold with no Kelly-roasting. Kelly is nice.

Then TIM has won already.

[Arijharn]

I have to ask though; what made (or what do you believe made) TIM believe Shephard's word when no one else of any real power did? Or was it only after Shephard died galavanting across the galaxy that they're opinion's changed?



Lets assume that TIM has all the intelligence/mission briefs about Shep's claim that the Reapers existed as the other species, how then could TIM be the only one who came to the belief that Shephard was telling the complete truth despite Shephard's actions probably being the most unlikely to engender that response in TIM?

[Nightwriter]

Arijharn wrote...

I have to ask though; what made (or what do you believe made) TIM believe Shephard's word when no one else of any real power did? Or was it only after Shephard died galavanting across the galaxy that they're opinion's changed?

Lets assume that TIM has all the intelligence/mission briefs about Shep's claim that the Reapers existed as the other species, how then could TIM be the only one who came to the belief that Shephard was telling the complete truth despite Shephard's actions probably being the most unlikely to engender that response in TIM?

My guess?

I guess the explanation I would give is that survivalists have heightened survival/perception instincts, and a sense of paranoia that makes them more aware of possible threats. Crazier, but also more aware. 

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I have to ask though; what made (or what do you believe made) TIM believe Shephard's word when no one else of any real power did? Or was it only after Shephard died galavanting across the galaxy that they're opinion's changed?

Lets assume that TIM has all the intelligence/mission briefs about Shep's claim that the Reapers existed as the other species, how then could TIM be the only one who came to the belief that Shephard was telling the complete truth despite Shephard's actions probably being the most unlikely to engender that response in TIM?

My guess?

I guess the explanation I would give is that survivalists have heightened survival/perception instincts, and a sense of paranoia that makes them more aware of possible threats. Crazier, but also more aware. 

Maybe TIM could see the situation clearly since Cerberus has no reason to delude themselves like the Council does. Or, the council could very well believe Shepard about the reapers, but doesn't trust him because of his Cerberus ties. Maybe they have another spectre working on it.