2146 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Or maybe TIM was assigned to the task of handling the Reapers for the Alliance? As their "fire&forget" ultimate problem solving system?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 octobre 2010 - 02:18 .

[Elite Midget]

[Cerberus churned out Shepard to deal with the collectors and the reapers. And he sure as hell dealed with the collectors. So that operation was a success.
Let's not forget that Cerberus discovered the location of the reaper IFF and retrieved it so Shepard could easily get it. If Cerberus hadn't done that Shepard probably wouldn't have found a way through the Omega 4 Relay.
Additionally, they gave Shepard his ship, his life-saving AI, and the dossiers on everyone but Legion.
TIM lied to Shepard so he wouldn't tip of the collectors that he knew it was a trap in any number of ways. TIM was obviously confident in Shepard's abilities and his confidence wasn't misplaced. You don't have to like it, but even Mordin agrees it was necessary, no?]


Cerberus didn't retrieve the IFF, Shepard did after TIM lead him into an ambush. The least he could have done was sent an encrypted message to Shepard and telling him to have precausions in place for a quick get away. Instead he lied and let Shepard improvise that nearly got Shepard and his crew killed.

They gave Shepard an outdated ship. Yeah... Thanks, Cerberus. I'm sure the Alliance could have madea better Normandy SR2 than Cerberus. Afterall, the Alliance is more open with working with aliens and it lead to the creation of the SR1 which was revolutionary at its creation while the SR2 was an outdated mess at its creation. The dossiers were TIMs way of saying 'This is who will bee on your crew.'. Than again, Bioware didn't give Shepard the option of giving TIM the bird and getting his own crew that didn't have a bunch of daddy issues. Out of the whole crew only Mordin is absolutely essential, everyone else wasen't one of a kind.

Hell, when you mention that you don't trust Miranda and Jacob you know what TIM basically says? Tough, it's his operation and Shepard is meant to obey and take who TIM wants on that ship.
There are ways to inform Shepard without having the Collectors tipped off. TIM could even have done it the old fashion way of writing it on paper and having it sent to Shepard while telling him to pretend to fall into the trap because the IFF is needed. Instead he lied and nearly got Shepard killed.

Mordin believes that the Krogan need to be permantely neutered and that the scared Batarians should have been shot when they were only reacting that way because they were paranoid by a plague that was killing them all. Neither are necessary and show that Mordin has made himself believe that Genophage is the only way even after the Krogan are nearly extinct and that those who act on emotions should be shot.

[Uh no, certainly not enough said. You've provided no evidence. You've basically just blatantly admitted that you have no evidence and just made it up because that is how you want things to be and not necessarily how they are.
Do you even read the e-mails or play LoTSB? Hackett isn't rolling over and just letting the politicians like Udina have their way. Hell, the Alliance would have tracked down and interrogated Shepard had Hackett not given Shepard the benefit of the doubt. After all, she never once questioned Shepard about Saren or the Reapers and has actively pushed for humanity embracing the other aliens of the galaxy.

The derelict reaper had been dead for millions of years yet was still able to indoctrinate. Don't pretend to know the risks involved in dealing with Sovereign's remains just because you haven't heard of anything bad happening as a result yet.
The collector base is also not a reaper, so you can't assume it can indoctrinate.

Harbinger was not addressing the Collector General in the ending cutscene, he was possessing it and monologuing about Shepard before he released control of the general and returned to dark space.

Also, if you had read Retribution you'd know how Harbinger was possessing the collector general and why he is no longer able to if you save the base.]

The derelict Reaper still had its systems. They weren't blown to bits and you know what? That Reaper caused the crew to go mad. What did a blown up Soveriegn do? Nothing, because there was nothing left to activate the defenses let alone tamper with the minds of organic life. Thus you can't compare the two. Soveriegn is no longer in tact while the derelict Reaper actually had parts in tact and connected to the systems. Cerberus moving in and hooking their systems into the still mostly intact Reaper was a 'very' bad idea.

The Reapers have already shown that they have more toys than just indoctrinating everything. What defenses that base has could very well end with as all ventures that Cerberus undertakes with Reaper tech. Failure.

If he wasen't addressing it than why was he outside the Collector Generals body and as a hologram? Maybe because Harbringer was addressing it and telling it that it was cutting off its loses and letting it die.
Oh really? Can I see that bit?
[It doesn't matter who he is working with. The reaper threat is too great for crappy excuses like that. If the Alliance was serious about the reapers they wouldn't complain about who he was working with.
And they can't trust him enough? He saved everyone's lives two years ago and now they throw him out like garbage without even bothering to ASK why he would work with Cerberus. The problem would kind of solve itself if they asked and found out that Shepard was only working with Cerberus in order to deal with the reapers, it'd be pretty goddamn easy to convince him to come work with the Alliance again in their efforts to combat the reapers. But that is not what they're doing, they're ignoring the reaper threat completing, so Shepard would have no reason to stop working with Cerberus.]

To the Alliance it DOES matter who Shepard is working with. Cerberus has terrorized Aliens and Humans alike and conducted inhumane experiments on both. It isn't far feteched for them to believe that a Shepard brought back from the dead might be under Cerberus control. After all, Shepard never contacted the Alliance and basically did everything that TIM wanted just like a good pet should. I would be suspicious as well.

The Alliance owed Shepard nothing. He died after all and they gave Shepard full honors at the funeral. Even started up funds after Shepard. Besides, Shepard knew that he came back to life before the Alliance did. So no, it wasen't the Alliance that should have approached Shepard first. It should have been Shepard to approach the alliance. Instead Shepard keeps information from the Alliance and helps Cerberus.

Who, I might add again, are a bunch of terrorist that the Alliance despises.

Lets try in real world standards. Would you welcome Obama in open arms if he came back from the dead but was working with the Taliban?

Also, sending Ashley/Kaiden to investigate doesn't look like doing nothing. Than there's Andersan and Hackett as well and it doesn't look like they're doing nothing eithe.
[TIM's pet? Stop exaggerating.
Anderson certainly had a had in investigating the colony abductions, probably hoping for evidence he could use to convince the Alliance to get off their asses and do something.]

Am I? Shepard does whatever TIM wants and pushes former allies back while expecting them to understand that he/she works with a  terrorist organization without ever explaining to them why. All Shepard says is 'I'm doing it for the right reasons, trust me!'. Yeah, that's hard to believe considering the history Cerberus has.

The Investigations were a good step in accepting the Reaper threat. So no, the Alliance wasen't fully on their asses. They were willing to humour Andersan even though all information about the Reapers ad been lost. And you know what?

Had Cerberus not been so greedy and shared knowledge of the Derelict Reaper with the Universe than they would have facts to back the Reaper claims! Instead Cerberus kept it to themselves and ended up losing the entire thing. Even than Cerberus refused to share any data they might have gotten from the derelict Reaper with anyone.

Thus the ones to blame for why Andersan has to fight to hard to get the truth out against Politicians and their stonewalling is Cerberus because they refused to share the only concrete information that had about the Reapers.


[I don't see where you're going with this. Cowering away from reaper technology isn't going to make it less dangerous. When the reapers get here they ARE going to use it to exterminate us. Cerberus is right to try to figure out relevant aspects of it before the war really starts.
Also, you are foolish enough to selectively ignore the good Cerberus has done in order to emphasize the bad. Hell, you even make fabrications to try to support your assertion that Cerberus is useless, etc.
No matter what you say, it's not going to change the fact that they're the reason you were able to defeat the collectors in ME2, and they're the only ones that have been doing anything to combat the reapers in the last 2 years. You'll have to grow up and deal with it sooner or later.]

Blowing Reaper tech up and studying the scraps has yielded far more technological advances than trying to study intact Reaper tech that always ends up biting back. Also, the novels show that even if the base was destroyed Cerberus still goes to collect the scraps. Which is much safer and forces them to innovate instead of just taking the Base and using what it has.

What good has Cerberus done outside of taking credit for what Shepard did? When the whole point of bring Shepard back was because they feared for themselves and their human agenda and not the rest of the galaxy. I make no fabrications. The information is there. Cerberus never once did anything that didn't benefit them. Their inaction in ME1 and them generally not caring about anyone but themselves in ME2 solidify's this.


[Of course you'd think that, you like to make all sorts of unfounded assumptions and exaggerations. The Thannix cannon was made by reverse engineering Sovereign's main gun, as I said before. The turians only deserve partial credit for being the first to salvage it.
Also, the fact that the stuff Cerberus has built is vital to your mission and that fancy technology you're talking about isn't rather undermines your argument.
But I also find it amusing that you would compare the research and development capabilities of Cerberus, which consists of 150 people, to entire races. You can compliment the other races all you want, but none of them brought Shepard back from the dead, none of them built a new stealth ship for him, and none of them created an AI based on reaper technology that was instrumental in the success of the mission. Those are undeniable facts.]

Reverse engineering a BLOWN UP Soveriegn's main gun. What Cerberus built was an outdated mess built on inhumane experiments while all the Alien upgrades are better and didn't need to resort to inhumane experiments that didn't pay off at all. I'm surprised TIM tries so hard since he has so many Rogue Cells and failed experiments.

Like I said, that new ship was an outdated mess that required the hep of Alien tech to be considered an upgrade over the Normandy SR1. When you first get the SR2 it's just a bigger SR1. Without the Alien upgrades it gets demolished rather easily, like the SR1, by the Collectors. The only difference being that Shepard knew the beating was coming but even than without the alien tech the SR2 gets smacked around silly.

Like I said, the only good thing Cerberus ever did was bringing Shepard back. However, concealing the fact that they brought back Shepard, so that no one would trust Shepard, ended up with everyone believing that Shepard was being controlled by Cerberus. Even Andersan cannot trust Shepard because TIM kept Shepard under wraps and Shepard never bothered to try and explain him/herself.
[I'm implying that you're behaving like Ashley in how you're too focused on Cerberus to see the real threat or consider what other people have to say.]

Ashley was in the right to question Shepard after all she witnessed in ME1 and the fact that Cerberus has a reputation of doing stupid and violent things to push their agenda. The fact that Shepard never ONCE contacted her or tried to explain a thing only confirms her belief that Cerberus has done something to Shepard.
[If you'd had read the books you'd know TIM was ignorant about the reapers until after the Battle of the Citadel. From that point on he devoted all of his resources into finding a way to stop them while the rest of the galaxy turned the reapers into some boogeymen to scare little children in bedtime stories (not literally, I don't believe).
Cerberus also does not have unlimited resources, there is no such thing. And why not explain how they would find out about everything that was going on with Saren? What makes you think the Alliance knew either? It's not like there is another human spectre out there that feeds Cerberus information (which will probably be the case in the future).
Also, we know Cerberus is spread out into different cells with different tasks. Do you think they should all just drop what they're doing to deal with Saren, which is Shepard's job. Shepard is the one that was getting the intel about Saren from the Council and others, not Cerberus. Also, why the hell would they want to get mixed up with a spectre and interfere with his mission? That would only bring the Council's attention directly to them.]

Even if TIM didn't believe in the Reapers in ME1 he was more than content letting the Geth and Saren massacre innocents because he couldn't be bothered. Not once did TIM ever wonder why the Geth were listening to Saren who was an organic. You would think a man of TIM's calibur would have figured that Saren had new technology to control the Geth and would have wanted it. Instead he ignored everything that happened in ME1. Yet it I doubt Cerberus didn't help itself to some of the scraps of Soveriegn.

It seems that TIM does. After all, he has how many cells operating and performing inhumane experiments? A lot. Not to mention that he had the budget to bring back Shepard and build an outdated ship for him. So yeah, I would have to say that TIM has virtually limitless funds since he has never given any reason to doubt so. As for the outdated ship... It was only outdated because TIM refused to work with aliens that would have corrected the outdated tech with the better stuff. Funding was never an issue for Cerberus. 

I expected TIM to have done something. As ME2 has shown, TIM doesn't need an army to do things. Sure TIM doesn't have someone like Shepard but I honestly doubt that he doesn't have experts for those dirty jobs that Cerberus needs done. Than there's the option of TIM hiring mercenaries to deal with the Geth while salvaging any tech he could. After all, the Geth tech is far more advanced than much of the tech that the Citadel races uses. Which is understandable, they're machines and they got gifts from Soveriegn.
TIM is about information. He most likely knew where Shepard was going long before Shepard jumped the Mass Effect Relays. He could easily have coordinated his minions to be elsewhere and out of Shepards way. Of course TIM didn't do that either. Instead TIM was content just doing inhumane experiments and ignoring the Geth incursions and attacks on humanity.

None of that is the "mass killings" that you're talking about. Also, in the case of Virmire, the Council sent the STG's to Virmire to investigate, then sent Shepard to investigate them when they couldn't get a signal out. There is nowhere in there that Cerberus could have done anything other than get in the way.

Cerberus didn't even try. It wouldn't have been that hard to have sent a Team on the planet and forge Alliance IDs to clear them. With no signal contacts going out they could have easily gotten away with that. Hell, the data that could have been obtained from Virmire sounds like something TIM would have wanted to exploit. Yet strangely enough he was content having Cerberus just doing the current inhumane experiments and the such. He didn't even bother monitoring Virmire from space. Yet when the Normandy crashed Cerberus kept a close eye on the crash site.

[If you think I'm being naive about Cerberus's past then you're once again making assumptions about my point of view just because I don't agree with you. I also never pretended Cerberus's past actions never happened or that they wouldn't happen again.
What I'm doing here is realizing that if we don't put as much effort as possible into stopping the reapers, we're all ****ing dead. That means you can't afford to be picky about who your allies are. I don't care if TIM eats babies for breakfast every day, I'd still wait until after the reapers are dealt with to go after him, because TIM not nearly as much of a threat as the reapers. And until the reapers are dealt with I'm not going to do a single thing to hinder Cerberus if it means lowering our chances of defeating the reapers.
Unlike you I'm capable of putting my issues with Cerberus on hold while the greater threat is deal with.]

Just because I'm blowing up the base doesn't mean that I'm not trying my best to stop the Reapers. However, I'm looking at reality here. Cerberus has proven ostly incompetent and their only star achievement was me. While intact Reaper Tech has always struck back. The Derelict Reaper just further confirmed my point of view on Intact Reaper Tech and how incompetent Cerberus is.

It isn't YOUR issues with Cerberus. It's the issues Cerberus has with everyone else. Giving Cerberus that toy will not help matters at all since we've been shown that Cerberus can't make up to date tech, since they refuse to work with aliens and get a second opinion on any tech they obtain, and it will only further entrage the Citadel races and the Alliance when they find out the truth. After all, Cerberus has never done them any favors other than killing innocents and willingness to attack them to protect their radical agenda.

[I've considered the views of the base destroyers and I've judged them to not be as focused on the reapers as they should be.
The reapers have been perpetuating a cycle of extinction for tens of millions of years with hundreds of trillions in casualties at the very least. if you don't give it everything you have you could end up erased from history just like every other species before you. TIM is not nearly as much of a threat as the reapers, so I will save the base and give it to him even if there is no guarantee that a massive problem won't occur, because there is still a chance that the base could end up saving us in the end. And our odds against the reapers are too low to ignore that chance. That is why I do not destroy the base.]

Well, your judgement isn't correct since many base destroyers in this thread have given NUMEROUS reasons why they blew up the base while also providing valid reasons on how they did so because they're focused on the Reapers. I'm sorry, but believing that the Collector Base is a treasure trove of goodies that wont bite back, like the Derelict Reaper, is wishful thinking. Intact Reaper Tech has a proven history of always backfiring on organics trying to access it.

More reason to innovate and not blind oneself to intact Reaper tech that will lead you down the path that Reapers had pre-determined and have back ups for. I mean look how quick the Reapers adapted to Soveriegn's demise! They had the Collectors kill Shepard in no time. I doubt they wont have a response to organics using the Base without their permission.

If the Base does have a massive problem than it might be too late to destroy it by than. That's a huge risk there. Better to blow it up and gather the scraps since intact Reaper Tech tends to bite back while a completely blown up Soveriegn created many innovations in the galaxy. See?

Chance of threat and maybe not getting much from the Base or no chance of threat and maybe not getting much from the scraps. Though with the track record the scraps have I feel that it's the better and less risky choice. After all, if the Base ends up like the Derelict Reaper than a majority the data gained from it would end up being lost once it causes a massive problem.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 15 octobre 2010 - 02:49 .

[smudboy]

Elite Midget wrote...

So you want to save the base?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Casuist wrote...

Um, YES. The purpose of personal files not intended for others to read is to generally keep records of information accurately.

When it comes to information brokers and containing information completely unrelated to them (and about their enemy no less)... it's IMPORTANT information, which would be why he kept it near him and unreachable except through only him.  The Shadowbroker never gives away information to the point that someone has too great of an edge, there has to be a source with that.  This particular information was kept close to his chest... it's not like he has a crush on Cerberus or plans to build a shrine out of that information... it's high-value for him to know and share with only the right (paying) people.

Rereading, the claim is that the explosion would have killed "dozens, if not hundreds" - so it seems your "cripple" claim is more accurate... but then, the possibility of "hundreds" reaffirms my comment. Your above distinction is irrelevant. You asked for examples of "extreme" acts. You received them. Those acts fulfilling some tactical purpose doesn't make them somehow benevolent.

Doesn't make it a stone cold evil either.  Similar to unleashing a nuclear weapon on Virmire... killing all of the inmates, salarians, and doctors that may have been left in or near the facility (as well as leaving behind a member of your own crew in the blast).

You can feel justified through sticking it to Saren and the Geth. 

TIM felt the Quarians were a threat because of them being responsible for the Geth (and per your logic, responsible for the attack on the Citadel as well, putting the entire galaxy in danger) as well as having the largest fleet known at that time.  He felt compelled to do something about that and find out what they were up to.  

Benevolence?  Absolutely not.

Hiring better people? Not setting an example of murder, kidnapping and torture being acceptable?

I don't think having a section on the application that says:  "Are you going to betray me or do stupid things with my money and resources?"  Would yield very productive results.

Archer and his colleagues being members of Cerberus- I certainly can. Blame directly on TIM? No, but then, I've never argued that he made that decision personally.

Then the Quarians are also to blame for the attack on the Citadel and all of the major threat evil that took place in Mass Effect 1 (Which would also justify TIM's viewpoint in seeing them as a threat)... though something tells me you don't believe that.

TIM: I see here you massacred a team of alliance marines. Naughty. You still have one alive, then? Putting acid in his bloodstream? Ah. Naughty. Carry on.

Yeah I'm sure they put that in their report to TIM.

Agent:  "We injected this dude with Thresher Maw Acid... that was really fun man you shoulda been there"

More so the fact that it was not a particularly successful operation. As Jack accurately states, we have no evidence what was being kept from TIM and have no means of knowing why he ordered the facility shut down... if we take him at his word.

Of course, it's funny that I'm willing to take him at his word and look at things in the best possible light- and that he's still a murderer, kidnapper and ****. And you are, on the other end, rejecting any amount of blame that does not involve video evidence of him pulling the trigger.

Jack wants to believe it was Cerberus.  But think about it, what would they need to hide if TIM is as you say he is?  If he's as you say, anything they're doing he'd be okay with... nothing to be suspiscious about.

Worth thinking about.

Heartwarming. Seriously. Here, frankie, we've paid your parents good money. Have a lollipop while we use you as a test subject. You may feel a little sting, and you may end up slightly dead.

Are you a fan of Halo?  Even if you're not, look up the Spartan II program.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 15 octobre 2010 - 03:16 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Elite Midget wrote...
 
The least he could have done was sent an encrypted message to Shepard and telling him to have precausions in place for a quick get away. Instead he lied and let Shepard improvise that nearly got Shepard and his crew killed.

Not in my playthrough, they were tough at spots but I pwned them

The derelict Reaper still had its systems. They weren't blown to bits and you know what? That Reaper caused the crew to go mad. What did a blown up Soveriegn do? Nothing, because there was nothing left to activate the defenses let alone tamper with the minds of organic life.

So you prefer not to have a solution to Indoctrination ready when the Reapers arrive?   ... just saying... may not want to do that if even dead reapers have been killing folks with it

The Grayson incident to me was the biggest wakeup call regarding how the Reapers may have been winning for all these years against every single race... united or not.

[mosor]

Elite Midget wrote...

Cerberus didn't retrieve the IFF, Shepard did after TIM lead him into an ambush. The least he could have done was sent an encrypted message to Shepard and telling him to have precausions in place for a quick get away. Instead he lied and let Shepard improvise that nearly got Shepard and his crew killed.

Huh. TIM said he lost contact with the research team. He didn't know what was going on. As for that IFF. Where did you find that IFF? On the table you say? I honestly didn't know reapers store their IFF's on a table. That's bizzare. In all seriousness, where would your Shepard have looked for the IFF if it wasn't on the table. It's a 2KM ship and you have no idea of the interior layout. Think you'd have found it before you get indoctrinated?

They gave Shepard an outdated ship. Yeah... Thanks, Cerberus. I'm sure the Alliance could have madea better Normandy SR2 than Cerberus. Afterall, the Alliance is more open with working with aliens and it lead to the creation of the SR1 which was revolutionary at its creation while the SR2 was an outdated mess at its creation. The dossiers were TIMs way of saying 'This is who will bee on your crew.'. Than again, Bioware didn't give Shepard the option of giving TIM the bird and getting his own crew that didn't have a bunch of daddy issues. Out of the whole crew only Mordin is absolutely essential, everyone else wasen't one of a kind.

Where is your proof that the Normandy is outdated? The Alliance only worked with aliens to make the SR-1 because Cerberus pushed them to. Unlike you, Cerberus isn't against learning from any alien, including reapers:lol:

Hackett isn't rolling over and just letting the politicians like Udina have their way. Hell, the Alliance would have tracked down and interrogated Shepard had Hackett not given Shepard the benefit of the doubt. After all, she never once questioned Shepard about Saren or the Reapers and has actively pushed for humanity embracing the other aliens of the galaxy.

Let me see. One of your officers is working for "Terrorists", another officer tells you that we should capture him and interrorgate him about his involvement with those terrorists, and you deny the request? WTF? Are you out of your mind? That e-mail makes me suspicious of Hackett actually working for Cerberus. That and Hackett in ME1 telling you to investigate the killing of alliance scientists who were really Cerberus scientists.

The derelict reaper had been dead for millions of years yet was still able to indoctrinate. Don't pretend to know the risks involved in dealing with Sovereign's remains just because you haven't heard of anything bad happening as a result yet.
The collector base is also not a reaper, so you can't assume it can indoctrinate.

The derelict reaper simply wasn't dead enough. Kinda like a person in a coma. A comatose person's anti-bodies will still fight off bacteria. A truely dead person's wouldn't.


The rest is TL;DR

Modifié par mosor, 15 octobre 2010 - 03:27 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Not everyone of the Migrant Fleet did. Even than, that attack was mishandled, like practically everthing Cerberus does, and was uncalled for.

So what other options were there?

Let her go. Really, what significance does a single autistic biotic child have? Yeah she's powerful, but from what I gathered from the ME games thus far, they don't have a cure for autism, so should would be too unpredictable in a fight and really, what else do you use biotics for?

[Casuist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

When it comes to information brokers and containing information completely unrelated to them (and about their enemy no less)... it's IMPORTANT information, which would be why he kept it near him and unreachable except through only him.  The Shadowbroker never gives away information to the point that someone has too great of an edge, there has to be a source with that.  This particular information was kept close to his chest... it's not like he has a crush on Cerberus or plans to build a shrine out of that information... it's high-value for him to know and share with only the right (paying) people.

Whose side are you arguing, exactly? Yes, it's his. Yes, he's close to it. Yes, it's accurate.

The Shadow Broker doesn't need to manufacture information to tarnish Cerberus' reputation. Its reputation is tarnished. The Shadow Broker is not in the business of providing false information. His business depends on being an open exchange of accurate information... and for that matter one would think that Liara would know enough to not pick the file folder "artifical infoz for blackmailz." 

Shadow Broker: I just KNOW that Shepard is going to drop by and kill me, so I think what I do is I'll manufacture a list of sexual liaisons for TIM in my personal files. Then I'll have a good chuckle after I'm dead.

Personal files, no reason to falsify, every reason to keep accurate given that is the service SB provides as he has done for decades. Your scenario of somehow doubting these acts performed by Cerberus is not remotely plausible.

Doesn't make it a stone cold evil either.  Similar to unleashing a nuclear weapon on Virmire... killing all of the inmates, salarians, and doctors that may have been left in or near the facility (as well as leaving behind a member of your own crew in the blast).

You can feel justified through sticking it to Saren and the Geth. 

Fighting galactic genocide is exactly the same thing as trying to recapture a girl you've been torturing.

I don't think having a section on the application that says:  "Are you going to betray me or do stupid things with my money and resources?"  Would yield very productive results.

If its happened as often as you say, it seems he should notice a pattern.

Then the Quarians are also to blame for the attack on the Citadel and all of the major threat evil that took place in Mass Effect 1 (Which would also justify TIM's viewpoint in seeing them as a threat)... though something tells me you don't believe that.

...because at the time of the citadel attack the geth are entirely under the Quarians' direct authority. 300 years ago, you say? Ah, for a geologist that's instantaneous. It's not as if anything happened in those 300 years, like falling under the control of as Reaper or Saren. What, that did happen? Damn.

Yeah I'm sure they put that in their report to TIM.

Methinks if he found the original attack as objectionable as you'd like, leaving the agents in question completely to their own devices for 10 years while they tortured Toombs would not have happened.

Jack wants to believe it was Cerberus.  But think about it, what would they need to hide if TIM is as you say he is?  If he's as you say, anything they're doing he'd be okay with... nothing to be suspiscious about.

I think burning through all your experimental subjects is a waste of money (and, besides that, if you're going to kill humans in front of TIM it had better further the cause of human dominance - failure isn't going to fly.

Productive murder and kidnapping is okay- as has been firmly established by his behavior in other circumstances.

Modifié par Casuist, 15 octobre 2010 - 04:15 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Casuist wrote...

Whose side are you arguing, exactly? Yes, it's his. Yes, he's close to it. Yes, it's accurate.

The Shadow Broker doesn't need to manufacture information to tarnish Cerberus' reputation. Its reputation is tarnished. The Shadow Broker is not in the business of providing false information. His business depends on being an open exchange of accurate information... and for that matter one would think that Liara would know enough to not pick the file folder "artifical infoz for blackmailz." 

Shadow Broker: I just KNOW that Shepard is going to drop by and kill me, so I think what I do is I'll manufacture a list of sexual liaisons for TIM in my personal files. Then I'll have a good chuckle after I'm dead.

Personal files, no reason to falsify, every reason to keep accurate given that is the service SB provides as he has done for decades. Your scenario of somehow doubting these acts performed by Cerberus is not remotely plausible.

Accurate to how he made it (which isn't necessarily the same to how it really was), again an agent (and Spectre no less) of the Shadowbroker had planned to blame the events there on Cerberus that she herself had done.  

Not remotely plausable?  Read what's in bold again... think about it a bit.

Regarding the Cerberus files, it's information close to him (and "the story he's sticking to" if it's nothing else) for use in the case of emergency or a high bid.  Of course in being killed by Shepard those things would be left on there.  But to the Shadowbroker, outside of sharing it with others at some point and for some reason, it's pointless for him to keep that kind of information in his "private stash" outside of high value. 

Fighting galactic genocide is exactly the same thing as trying to recapture a girl you've been torturing.

A galactic genocide pushed largely by the group holding the girl that was captured from Cerberus that they were putting drugs into that had a bad reaction.  You don't honestly believe they're just torturing her for the heck of it (or even just to see what happens)?  There's no reason to doubt they were trying to make her stronger... and she was indeed stronger... there were just side-effects (a reason TIM could've wanted to keep a closer eye on her).

If its happened as often as you say, it seems he should notice a pattern.

Indeed, but again, he's at the limits of his power and influence without getting more involved (which he won't do because of cautiously protecting himself).  I would argue that his latest endeavor and era of experiments and operations to stop the Collectors went off without much of a hitch and was handled apparently better than other missions we've heard about, but depending on what you yourself decided to do while under Cerberus... you can go against his wishes as well... go figure.

...because at the time of the citadel attack the geth are entirely under the Quarians' direct authority. 300 years ago, you say? Ah, for a geologist that's instantaneous. It's not as if anything happened in those 300 years, like falling under the control of as Reaper or Saren. What, that did happen? Damn.

They're supposed to be under the authority of the Quarians... it's their creation afterall... their programming, their technology.  You shouldn't hold them to a double-standard to operatives of Cerberus who also succomb to their own whims and way of doing things.  Can be 3000 years if you want to hold the "creators" responsible for every action of the group they empowered... wouldn't make a difference.

Actually, the Quarians would be the worst of the 2 offenders because the Geth are programs that can be recoded.  Can't really do that with human beings who decide to do things their own way.... unless you're a Reaper...

Methinks if he found the original attack as objectionable as you'd like, leaving the agents in question completely to their own devices for 10 years while they tortured Toombs would not have happened.

Right now I'm not certain if he found the original attack at all.  He very well could have, but it's also possible that he didn't (but at the very least, he approved studying Thresher Maws).

I think burning through all your experimental subjects is a waste of money (and, besides that, if you're going to kill humans in front of TIM it had better further the cause of human dominance - failure isn't going to fly.

Productive murder and kidnapping is okay- as has been firmly established by his behavior in other circumstances.

Plausable on its own but doesn't quite correlate with why they were holding out on TIM and had apparently gone rogue.  If money was the issue, not sending in reports to encourage the money man to stay happy (and keep spending) strongly suggests they were doing something else.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Another thing to consider... TIM split the operators into 3 Cells. Just 3.

So if all the science groups were 1 Cell, TIM has a lot of room to miss the particulars of what was done with roughly 50 operators.  Chances are higher that he just dealt with the Cell leader.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 15 octobre 2010 - 05:22 .

[Casuist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Accurate to how he made it (which isn't necessarily the same to how it really was), again an agent (and Spectre no less) of the Shadowbroker had planned to blame the events there on Cerberus that she herself had done.  

Doesn't seem Tela's claim made it into the dossier. Where's William of Ockham when you really need him?

You don't honestly believe they're just torturing her for the heck of it (or even just to see what happens)?  There's no reason to doubt they were trying to make her stronger... and she was indeed stronger... there were just side-effects (a reason TIM could've wanted to keep a closer eye on her).

I think unethical experiments are unethical, and that there's nothing remotely justified with Gillian's treatment... and that, again, the point isn't whether Cerberus was strategically justified (by their particular point of view). The point was whether they had earned their reputation.

They're [b]supposed to be under the authority of the Quarians... it's their creation afterall... their programming, their technology.  You shouldn't hold them to a double-standard to operatives of Cerberus who also succomb to their own whims and way of doing things.  Can be 3000 years if you want to hold the "creators" responsible for every action of the group they empowered... wouldn't make a difference.

Actually, the Quarians would be the worst of the 2 offenders because the Geth are programs that can be recoded.  Can't really do that with human beings who decide to do things their own way.... unless you're a Reaper...

1) I've really got no interest in defending the quarians for their actions concerning the origins of the geth.
2) All the quarians directly involved are dead.
3) You argued that Cerberus was getting a bad rap, not that there's other beings who have done bad things in history.
4) It's still a ridiculous comparison. The quarians are indeed responsible for the present actions of the geth, but the level of abstraction is infinitely greater than the subject we're discussing.

Right now I'm not certain if he found the original attack at all.  He very well could have, but it's also possible that he didn't (but at the very least, he approved studying Thresher Maws).

We have a man who limits the scope of his organization so as to maintain personal control and oversight of each project... who apparently decided to funnel money to a study and then ignored it for 10 years. Under your scenario, he's evil AND incompetent (although in some cases that's better than evil and competent... I'm still not comforted).

[Zulu_DFA]

I doubt EDI has full realization of what Cerberus is.



I'd stick with the "military analysts" whose assessment was taken for writing th Codex:



Ceberus is a network of many privately owned labs, companies, merc outfits and intelligence bureaus.



Only in Retribution the Turians hit six (IIRC) Cerberus targets simultaneously, not counting the exposed businesses and individual agents. And that was hardly a crippling blow.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Casuist wrote...

Doesn't seem Tela's claim made it into the dossier. Where's William of Ockham when you really need him?

If that's the Spectre, then yeah she was killed before she got to send it.  //snaps fingers in disappointment

I think unethical experiments are unethical, and that there's nothing remotely justified with Gillian's treatment... and that, again, the point isn't whether Cerberus was strategically justified (by their particular point of view). The point was whether they had earned their reputation.

You could justify maximizing a child's biotic powers with medicine.  Their medicine just had some nasty side effects.  Dangerous side-effects are common in the medical field.

That said, the point wasn't whether Cerberus earned their reputation.  The point is simply and only not every evil deed they've been blamed for was technically their fault or TIM's fault.  Not all, that's all.

1) I've really got no interest in defending the quarians for their actions concerning the origins of the geth.
2) All the quarians directly involved are dead.
3) You argued that Cerberus was getting a bad rap, not that there's other beings who have done bad things in history.
4) It's still a ridiculous comparison. The quarians are indeed responsible for the present actions of the geth, but the level of abstraction is infinitely greater than the subject we're discussing.

1)  That's fine, but the Quarians ARE the origins of the Geth.
2)  I thought we weren't just limiting ourselves to who is directly involved in the dastardly deeds, but just the original maker group in general.  How they behave after they begin their original function is supposed to still be the fault of the group right?
3)  I argue some of the things they're blamed for aren't accurate unless there's more blame to go round in which case it still proves the point that while TIM/Cerberus is no saint, they're not as bad as they're accused of being.
4)  It's actually very similar.  But since you say the Quarians are responsible, then TIM seeing them as a threat isn't an evil or extreme thought now is it?  Now access to the largest fleet in space could hold some importance to know what they may be planning to do next?  (P.S. I don't hold this view I'm just riding your logic toward the point of Cerberus not being as bad as is being made to believe... though still bad)

We have a man who limits the scope of his organization so as to maintain personal control and oversight of each project... who apparently decided to funnel money to a study and then ignored it for 10 years. Under your scenario, he's evil AND incompetent (although in some cases that's better than evil and competent... I'm still not comforted).

I don't doubt he reads over every report he recieves but that's not the whole story and not the only thing he does with his time.  And again it's not a matter of incompetence... he just can't really expect any more than that if he even begins to hope to multi-task.

Could watch a video, but of every single operative doing every single thing?  Not feasable.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

--double post--

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 15 octobre 2010 - 06:14 .

[mosor]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

TIM lied to Shepard so he wouldn't tip of the collectors that he knew it was a trap in any number of ways. TIM was obviously confident in Shepard's abilities and his confidence wasn't misplaced. You don't have to like it, but even Mordin agrees it was necessary, no?

Yes.

And I think Mordin knew what he's talking about.

A few pages back I suggested that it could be Garrus who snitched for the Shadow Broker on the Normandy, but now I think that TSB got his on-Normandy intel from leaks in the STG, to whom Mordin was feeding updates on the Shepard's mission progress all the time. And TIM was counting on it (see Pope Leo Something's story in the "Cerberus" dossier at TSB's). Hence, all the "need-to-know basis" policies and Mordin's understanding.

I think the shadow broker got his on-board normandy intel from the very bugs Cerberus was using to spy on Shepard. EDI is an advanced cyber warfare specialist. She would have detected any video feed signal not going to TIM. The leak is probably at Cerberus command. Probably the same guy giving the funny (but probably erroneous) intel on TIM.

[tommyt_1994]

I don't understand why every time someone justifies destroying the base due to not trusting Cerberus, they are immediately cast off as someone who is acting to "make themselves feel better".

The CB could very well be the most technologically advanced base in the galaxy. It creates reapers, so the chances of indoctrination as well as traps set by the reapers are very likely. So this base much be approached with extreme caution and fragility in order to prevent any catastrophic failures that could very well send us backwards in our progress in regards to preparing for the reapers. As several Cerberus projects have shown, Overlord being the most prominent, Cerberus doesn't take too many precautions and often times they come to a point of catastrophe. Look at Overlord, it was handled poorly and almost lead to a technological apocalypse. Wouldn't you consider that a pretty big deal? With all we've been presented with, if you can look at Cerberus and say, "I don't trust them with something so dangerous" then you simply shouldn't hand over the base to them. The chances of them messing up terribly are too high.

On top of that, Miranda, if she's with you at the end of the game, shows concern about handing something so dangerous over to TIM. Don't you think that if anyone knows how much you can trust TIM, it's her? She's been alongside TIM for years and is one of his top agents. She has been through multiple projects with him and has even met him in person, which few people have. If anyone is in the proper position to judge whether or not TIM can be trusted with it, it's her.

That alone is a pretty compelling argument to destroy the base. And that's not even including various other supporting details explained throughout this thread.

[Zulu_DFA]

mosor wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

TIM lied to Shepard so he wouldn't tip of the collectors that he knew it was a trap in any number of ways. TIM was obviously confident in Shepard's abilities and his confidence wasn't misplaced. You don't have to like it, but even Mordin agrees it was necessary, no?

Yes.

And I think Mordin knew what he's talking about.

A few pages back I suggested that it could be Garrus who snitched for the Shadow Broker on the Normandy, but now I think that TSB got his on-Normandy intel from leaks in the STG, to whom Mordin was feeding updates on the Shepard's mission progress all the time. And TIM was counting on it (see Pope Leo Something's story in the "Cerberus" dossier at TSB's). Hence, all the "need-to-know basis" policies and Mordin's understanding.

I think the shadow broker got his on-board normandy intel from the very bugs Cerberus was using to spy on Shepard. EDI is an advanced cyber warfare specialist. She would have detected any video feed signal not going to TIM. The leak is probably at Cerberus command. Probably the same guy giving the funny (but probably erroneous) intel on TIM.

That's also possible. The guy maybe a double agent. Infiltrated Cerberus on TSB's behalf, then defected / was caught. Or was Cerberus, then was recruited by the Broker (via Wilson) and caught / switched sides again, or the whole scheme was TIM's idea from the very start. And now he is feeding TSB with all kinds of misinformation wrapped up in hefty pieces of good but non-critical stuff.

Doesn't say Mordin is clean. It's not like I confine him to the Normandy at the hub ports (like I do with Jack). But as I said, TIM may be counting on it, and his "need-to-know basis" approach is fully justified even with the most Cerberus-loyal Shepard.

BTW, the EDI-Legion piece incriminates Shepard in having all kinds of AI activity onboard!

[tallinn]

Mortis5 wrote...

For TIM the living Shephard is valuable as a lure.

Shepard is very important to TIM. He is the only one who can help TIM defeat the Reapers and give him some things in the process (like the Collectors base).

I accept your point that just obtaining information about the not-so-abandoned collector vessel is not enough to sacrifice Shephard for.  We agree that TIM is risking that nevertheless. No theory presented so far explains this.

Actually there is an unresolved plot element that started in ME1 and has been applied in ME:Redemption and ME2 as well: there is something very special about Shephard, something in his genes, that enables him to obtain those prothean messages from the senders and makes him interesting for the Collectors. Why are they so keen to obtain him or his body? I expect ME3 to give an answer to that.

And I am sure that TIM would have a plan B  in case Shephard is captured by the Collectors. I guess he expects the Collectors to keep Shephard alive which can be in many ways in the ME universe :-). If not it would be totally unreasonable to send Shephard into all sorts of traps without warning. The authors of the ME-Story did not need to work out that plan B so far. But they have to come up with revealing TIM's true agenda in ME3.

[Ieldra]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...
Not everyone of the Migrant Fleet did. Even than, that attack was mishandled, like practically everthing Cerberus does, and was uncalled for.

So what other options were there?

Let her go. Really, what significance does a single autistic biotic child have? Yeah she's powerful, but from what I gathered from the ME games thus far, they don't have a cure for autism, so should would be too unpredictable in a fight and really, what else do you use biotics for?

What else do you use a human with powerful telekinetic abilities for? If I started making a list I wouldn't be able to stop for two days.

Also, Gillian wasn't just "a biotic". Cerberus wanted a template for making human biotics more powerful, and succeeded with her. You don't simply let a successful prototype go. Not that I support how they conducted their experiments in the first place, but it makes perfect sense to go to some lengths to keep her.

[Ieldra]

tommyt_1994 wrote...
I don't understand why every time someone justifies destroying the base due to not trusting Cerberus, they are immediately cast off as someone who is acting to "make themselves feel better".

In the end, that's what I suspect it comes down in most cases. Why I think so? Because the base-keepers have been consistent in their arguments from the very first hour this topic was raised, while the base-destroyers always find new scenarios that get more outlandish and even counterfactual (see Elite Midget's post at the top of this page for an example) with every day the debate continues. It's almost a textbook example for how reason is the slave of the passions - I'm tempted to send this whole debate to someone who studies morality and human decision making scientifically. I'm sure he'd be fascinated. 

Edit: the problem here is that Cerberus' evil is visible and specifically designed to appeal to the emotions, while galaxy-wide extinction is abstract, just a statistic. It's not so easy to accept an organization who does things like this may be something you must support for the greater good for the time being.

The CB could very well be the most technologically advanced base in the galaxy. It creates reapers, so the chances of indoctrination as well as traps set by the reapers are very likely. So this base much be approached with extreme caution and fragility in order to prevent any catastrophic failures that could very well send us backwards in our progress in regards to preparing for the reapers. As several Cerberus projects have shown, Overlord being the most prominent, Cerberus doesn't take too many precautions and often times they come to a point of catastrophe. Look at Overlord, it was handled poorly and almost lead to a technological apocalypse. Wouldn't you consider that a pretty big deal? With all we've been presented with, if you can look at Cerberus and say, "I don't trust them with something so dangerous" then you simply shouldn't hand over the base to them. The chances of them messing up terribly are too high.

I would follow your argument in any scenario where the outcome to avoid at all costs weren't "galaxy-wide extinction". There is a chance - please note that I don't speak of certainties - we'll find something that lets us bridge the technological gap to the Reapers on the base, and I consider it certain that we'll need to bridge that gap somehow to win.

I'd agree with destroying the base were the derelict Reaper still there to be studied, or the remains of Sovereign in a state to be systematically studied. But as it is, we have nothing. I'm not a big fan of Cerberus even though I consider them in part a necessary evil, and given the choice, I would prefer to give the base to someone with a better record for co-operation and experimental results. But Cerberus is what we're given, and we can't afford to destroy the base because that just might doom us to extinction. Whatever Cerberus does with the base, unless there's a significant chance that it makes the Reapers win where otherwise they wouldn't it's the lesser evil you risk.

There are, I might add, safeguards you can use to avoid that worst-case scenario even should you assign a significant probability to it. Other than with Overlord, you know what's happening. You can destroy the base later should it prove too dangerous. You can destroy it anyway after having studied it enough. You can keep an eye on it all, you can inform your other allies about what's happening and let them keep an eye on it, you can tell the Council to take it from Cerberus etc. etc.. There are countless ways you can prevent a worst-case scenario if Cerberus gets the base. The important thing is that where you don't know enough to make an informed decision, you must keep your options open. If you destroy the base, you destroy all other options - if there was something you needed, you'll have doomed the galaxy. You'll not be able to correct that decision. Unlike if you keep it - then all strategic options are still open.

On top of that, Miranda, if she's with you at the end of the game, shows concern about handing something so dangerous over to TIM. Don't you think that if anyone knows how much you can trust TIM, it's her? She's been alongside TIM for years and is one of his top agents. She has been through multiple projects with him and has even met him in person, which few people have. If anyone is in the proper position to judge whether or not TIM can be trusted with it, it's her.

Oh, oh...dangerous grounds here. Many Miranda fans, me included, consider her recommendation out of character (I wonder what the others think). The disagreements about that are as much beyond reconciliation as opinions about keeping the base seem to be. The plain fact is that *everyone* on the team explains his or her dissatisfaction if you keep the base. I wonder if that's Bioware telling us they'll make Renegades regret their decision. I still hope that a pragmatic decision will, for once, yield the results we can expect in order to name it "pragmatic".

That alone is a pretty compelling argument to destroy the base. And that's not even including various other supporting details explained throughout this thread.

The supporting details, in almost all cases, simply don't matter, for they don't change the basic risk calculation one bit. Escaping galaxy-wide extinction is the only priority that exists, the ultimate evil to be avoided, and to that end, until we know how to do this all options must be kept open. Unless Cerberus would make the Reapers win where they wouldn't without them - and we base-keepers have outlined various ways to avoid that scenario - their actions aren't enough to weigh the scale in favor of destroying the base.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 octobre 2010 - 10:03 .

[GodWood]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Oh, oh...dangerous grounds here. Many Miranda fans, me included, consider her recommendation out of character (I wonder what the others think).

I've always seen it as something just thrown in to justify why she'd be on the Normandy after the suicide mission.

[Barquiel]

I think Miranda's decision was completely IC, but I am not surprised that some cerberus fans disagree. Miranda's doubts about Cerberus are already foreshadowed on the Collector Ship mission (and on Pragia).

Modifié par Barquiel, 15 octobre 2010 - 10:18 .

[Dean_the_Young]

On the Collector Ship, her 'doubts' are saying that the Illusive Man would lie without good reason... which even Mordin, no Cerberus fan, agrees.



On Pragia, it's the same as she always maintains: that certain groups went too far on their own, but that's not how all of Cerberus is.

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

On the Collector Ship, her 'doubts' are saying that the Illusive Man would lie without good reason... which even Mordin, no Cerberus fan, agrees.

On Pragia, it's the same as she always maintains: that certain groups went too far on their own, but that's not how all of Cerberus is.

"There has to be some other explanation! The Illusive Man wouldn't do this to us. He...he just wouldn't."
She is everything but convinced.

Pragia...I doubt she believes the rogue cell story herself.