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[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The implication from the first game as well is that all the relays can accept the IFF for full access: they turn off all relays through the Citadel, but Reaper IFF allows them to use the network at will. Also, presumably, the relays access their full potential, allowing greater mobility, less drift, etc.

For most the relays, it's convenience (or, rather, unlimited utility). For the Omega 4, it's life or death.

Where were Reaper IFFs in the first game? I only played it once and might have missed it.

A lack of need. Centralization. When the Reapers need to cut off a relay, they could always tell the Keepers to do so through the Relay Network master control system. And that worked.

And now it doesn't.

Only if there were a way to nullify the Reaper IFF and change it. Which may not be possible at all, and part of why they don't 'change' the IFF.

I don’t understand, everything works until it doesn’t.
But why build a system that works like that in the first place? Unless…   Seriously, it’s a plot hole big enough to fly a Reaper through. That or the Reapers believe that their technology and methods will never fail. A fine working definition for arrogance.

Except the galactic core is a special case in that it is not great volume of space: it's a relatively small area. It's not like you can simply fly through the blackholes to get there.

How big is the safe zone on the other side of the Ω4? This isn’t so much a plot hole as it is entirely unexplained. I have three reasons for believing it is, relative to the individual things within it, quite large.

First, the Normandy, the occuli, and the CS all have ample room to manuever at full speed.

Second, is the size of the debris field, it is quite extensive.  Some of those battered hulks may have drifted into irradiated areas, but this is unlikely due to reason three.

Third the occuli were in a dormant state and only activated once the Normandy passed in close proximity and there were only a few of them. To my eye the debris field was seeded with occuli in anticipation of someone making it through the Ω4 intact, by someone incapable of predicting exactly where an attacker would emerge. If a more narrow approach vector to the CB could be predicted (ie the safe zone was relatively small), the occuli should have been more concentrated. 

Or the 3-4 occuli the Normandy destroyed represented the sum total of such craft Harbinger had available, which only supports my position that he failed to take basic security precautions by holding them closer to the base, placing all his trust in the “impenetrable” nature of the Ω4. The defense as it was was clearly inadequate.

How much have the Reapers truly been stymied, though?

Vanguard destroyed, Collector attacks replused, geth allies neutralized, CB neutalized.  All out attack only option.

No argument that they are infallible, but failing doesn't necessitate complacency or arrogance.

In this case, I suppose I should make a point that 'smart' can be taken a number of interpretations: I'll take 'knowledge', for example, as opposed to 'clever', which they aren't lacking either. Whether, say, the Illusive Man is more clever than Sovereign, or is in a better position in this case, is far more debatable.

But more capable? What has Shepard ever done that the Collectors and Reapers were incapable of doing?

She destroyed their vanguard, repulsed their attacks, neutalized their allies and took their base, they didn't. 

Whether or not the Reapers are theoretically capable of doing the same is obvious… of course they are! But they didn’t. Consistent victories don’t just happen, there are reasons.

Excuse me? The protehans deduced the nature of keeper evolution when the Reapers did not? In what sense? The Reapers are the nature of the keeper evolution.

If you're referring to how the Protheans were able to change the Keepers, that's not a matter of superiority. The Ilos was lost to the system and overlooked, and after the Reapers left the last Protheans made their move, which by its nature wouldn't be noticable until it the Keepers didn't respond. How is that superior cunning or ability, as opposed to a good move that, due to nature and position, wouldn't be noticed? Once they realized it, Sovereign and the Reapers understood the reason why it failed.


Technological and numerical, but not qualitative and situational advantages. Shepard is a better fighter than the Reapers allies of Geth, Krogan, Collectors. Sure. But Shepard didn't exactly Sovereign himself either, and in fighting Sovereign's corpse it was Shepard who had more men.

I was given to understand the keepers had changed over the millenia to take their orders only from the Citadel itself, though I do forget where I heard that, might not be true. 

In any instance hiding, and waiting to strike a devastating blow when and where your enemy least expects it sounds rather cunning to me.  Which is what the prothean scientists did.  The fact that it wasn't noticed by the Reapers until it was too late further supports this.

More the first than the second, and they didn't have every advantage. Quite a few disadvantages, really.

The Reapers had superior numbers, firepower, and the element of surprise at the Citadel. They had superior numbers, roughly equal firepower, and ample warning of an impending attack at the CB. The only disadvantages I can see are psychological/cultural, and those have proven fatal.

Out of place, but not an unreasonable position either. Sovereign may not have been in a position to withdraw either, even if it wanted to.

If it wanted to, which wouldn't be necessary either. The assault was a comitment, and no other chance would ever be as good once the Organics were aware of the Reapers presence, and the Conduit backdoor. The entire reason Sovereign hadn't attacked earlier was due to a front assault being too dangerous, and as time goes, tech advances, the backdoor is sealed off, and the Organics are prepared, what could be a better chance than now?

I can see Sovereign thinking to himself at the Battle of the Citadel, “There’s no way the Council will be dense enough to dismiss claims of “Reapers” after this! And even I can’t just sit here while 5th Fleet hammers me! I have to finish this now!  If I don’t either the humans or Harbinger will have my tentacles!” 

From that perspective it makes sense to try and take out Shepard. What doesn’t make sense is why he put himself in personal jeopardy to do it.  Harbinger was able to possess drone after drone, why couldn't Sovereign do something similar, wave attacks?  Unless he didn't have a reserve force.  Or his reserve force was already committed.  If so where?

Put another way, unless 5th Fleet represented a threat in the first place, why should Sovereign care what they do? The potential corollary of course being that if 5th Fleet was a threat to Sovereign, than galactic technology is already capable of winning against Reapers. Which fits rather nicely with the idea that the CB is unnecessary to match Reaper technology.

[Ieldra]

@Barquiel:
The complaint is not that Miranda's distrust of TIM isn't foreshadowed. Depending on your interpretation, it is. The complaint is that her recommendation at the base goes against several character traits, of which Cerberus loyalty is only one:
(1) Her loyalty. You can say this is foreshadowed, but it still comes out of the blue.
(2) Her pragmatism. Regardless of her change of loyalty, she'd see the merits of keeping the base. At the very least, I'd have expected her to be indecisive about it.
(3) Her protectiveness towards her sister. If she resigns, Oriana will be left unprotected, maybe even taken in by Cerberus as a punishment.
(4) Her emotional detachment. Even recommending to destroy the base, she wouldn't say such a plainly silly thing like "this feels like a betrayal".

I could put it off as an impulsive spur-of-the-moment outburst, but the game doesn't leave me that way out: when I talk with her later, she still has the same opinion.

Sorry for this slightly OT excursion - but we've had worse.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 octobre 2010 - 12:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

The implication from the first game as well is that all the relays can accept the IFF for full access: they turn off all relays through the Citadel, but Reaper IFF allows them to use the network at will. Also, presumably, the relays access their full potential, allowing greater mobility, less drift, etc.

For most the relays, it's convenience (or, rather, unlimited utility). For the Omega 4, it's life or death.[/quote]


Where were Reaper IFFs in the first game? I only played it once and might have missed it.[/quote]While not mentioned explicitly, Vigil mentions how the Relays were shut down for the Protheans, while the Reapers were able to move across the galaxy. An implication, in accordance with ME2, is that the Relays were turned to an 'IFF Only' Mode, blocking the Reapers victims but allowing the Reapers to move as they pleased.



[quote]
I don’t understand, everything works until it doesn’t.
But why build a system that works like that in the first place? Unless…   Seriously, it’s a plot hole big enough to fly a Reaper through. That or the Reapers believe that their technology and methods will never fail. A fine working definition for arrogance.[/quote]Only for an extremely liberal, effectively meaningless definition of arrogance as 'not covering every extreme improbability', which sounds nice and reasonable in theory but doesn't really work out in practice on any practical level. And also for a very menaingless, erroneous definition of plot hole.

For it to be a plot hole, there would have to be some assertion in the plot that the Reapers could change the Reaper IFF code for individual relays at will. You might not agree with that from a design standpoint, but a plot hole? Not at all.

Why build a system that can only be controlled from the Citadel? Here's a very simple answer: so that organics, rushing to try and react to the Mass Relay networks being closed to them but not the Reapers, can't have an opportunity to discover the hidden function that would allow them to outright turn off the relay/bar the Reapers from moving through the Relay, thus giving them a chance to




[quote]
How big is the safe zone on the other side of the Ω4? This isn’t so much a plot hole as it is entirely unexplained. I have three reasons for believing it is, relative to the individual things within it, quite large.

First, the Normandy, the occuli, and the CS all have ample room to manuever at full speed.

Second, is the size of the debris field, it is quite extensive.  Some of those battered hulks may have drifted into irradiated areas, but this is unlikely due to reason three.

Third the occuli were in a dormant state and only activated once the Normandy passed in close proximity and there were only a few of them. To my eye the debris field was seeded with occuli in anticipation of someone making it through the Ω4 intact, by someone incapable of predicting exactly where an attacker would emerge. If a more narrow approach vector to the CB could be predicted (ie the safe zone was relatively small), the occuli should have been more concentrated. [/quote]None of those mark the safe zone in any way as beeing too large to seed with Occuli, even going with the assumption of all three points... which need not be given.

How do we know that the Normandy was going at full speed, as opposed to going as fast as Jeff thought possible as he threaded the debris field? Fast as possible doesn't necessarily mean that fast in there.

Point two is meaningless, because it doesn't mean anything. So what if it's extensive, how does that make it impossible?

Statistical clustering can explain point three (and, by extension, part of point two): the safe vector of approach from the relay (guaranteed by the IFF) puts you in that vicinity, while the drift from going through the relay is more likely to put you into the black holes from the get go. The relay only has a narrow band of 'acceptable' drift, which can be guarded by the occuli, while the rest is instant death.
[quote]
Or the 3-4 occuli the Normandy destroyed represented the sum total of such craft Harbinger had available, which only supports my position that he failed to take basic security precautions by holding them closer to the base, placing all his trust in the “impenetrable” nature of the Ω4. The defense as it was was clearly inadequate.[/quote]I don't see why thouse would be assumed.

[quote][quote]

How much have the Reapers truly been stymied, though?

[/quote]

Vanguard destroyed, Collector attacks replused, geth allies neutralized, CB neutalized.  All out attack only option.

[quote][/quote]Which doesn't mean they won't still win.

From a story standpoint, yes, we know they won't, but from a planing, not at all assured. Fall back plans, if they succede, are just as effective.

[/quote]

She destroyed their vanguard, repulsed their attacks, neutalized their allies and took their base, they didn't. 
[/quote]Why would they want to destroy their own vanguard, repulse their attack, neutralize their allies, and take a base they already have? You're making no sense, Watson!

You're arguing from end-result, not capabilities. Which is meaningless given that none of the Reapers intents were for those results: it's like penalizing someone in an arbitrary race when they go somewhere else on their own.


[quote]

Excuse me? The protehans deduced the nature of keeper evolution when the Reapers did not? In what sense? The Reapers are the nature of the keeper evolution.

If you're referring to how the Protheans were able to change the Keepers, that's not a matter of superiority. The Ilos was lost to the system and overlooked, and after the Reapers left the last Protheans made their move, which by its nature wouldn't be noticable until it the Keepers didn't respond. How is that superior cunning or ability, as opposed to a good move that, due to nature and position, wouldn't be noticed? Once they realized it, Sovereign and the Reapers understood the reason why it failed.


Technological and numerical, but not qualitative and situational advantages. Shepard is a better fighter than the Reapers allies of Geth, Krogan, Collectors. Sure. But Shepard didn't exactly Sovereign himself either, and in fighting Sovereign's corpse it was Shepard who had more men.

[/quote]

I was given to understand the keepers had changed over the millenia to take their orders only from the Citadel itself, though I do forget where I heard that, might not be true.  [/quote]The keepers were altered to that state by the Protheans of Ilos as a last, hidden act of defiance years after the Reapers had killed the rest of their species and returned home. 
[quote]
In any instance hiding, and waiting to strike a devastating blow when and where your enemy least expects it sounds rather cunning to me.  Which is what the prothean scientists did.  The fact that it wasn't noticed by the Reapers until it was too late further supports this.[/quote]Sure, the logical path is cunning. No one is saying they weren't smart. But how does that make them more cunning than the Reapers? It's not like their hiding was all their own ingenuity: the data of their lab location was lost to the Reapers in the initial attack on the Citadel, pure chance.


[quote]
The Reapers had superior numbers, firepower, and the element of surprise at the Citadel. They had superior numbers, roughly equal firepower, and ample warning of an impending attack at the CB. The only disadvantages I can see are psychological/cultural, and those have proven fatal.[/quote]Au contrair, Sovereign and the Geth were outnumbered, and geth superiority is much exagerated. Sovereign and the Gether were always in poorer position: that's why they didn't attack sooner, and looked for the Conduit as a means to infiltrate the Citadel and lock down the relays from immediate reinforcements. Because it was judged they couldn't win a stand-up fight... which is exactly what ended up happening. 


[quote]
I can see Sovereign thinking to himself at the Battle of the Citadel, “There’s no way the Council will be dense enough to dismiss claims of “Reapers” after this! And even I can’t just sit here while 5th Fleet hammers me! I have to finish this now!  If I don’t either the humans or Harbinger will have my tentacles!” 

From that perspective it makes sense to try and take out Shepard. What doesn’t make sense is why he put himself in personal jeopardy to do it.  Harbinger was able to possess drone after drone, why couldn't Sovereign do something similar, wave attacks?  Unless he didn't have a reserve force.  Or his reserve force was already committed.  If so where?[/quote]Or his minions were killed by Shepard on the way up, if any were capable at all. Saren's ground forces were always smaller than the fleet outside. And those forces were tied up by the Citadel fleets and 5th Fleet.

Harbinger's drone setup was through a dedicated setup of the Collectors, a mellina-engineered force made for that purpose.

Saren and his allies were... not.
[quote]
Put another way, unless 5th Fleet represented a threat in the first place, why should Sovereign care what they do? The potential corollary of course being that if 5th Fleet was a threat to Sovereign, than galactic technology is already capable of winning against Reapers. Which fits rather nicely with the idea that the CB is unnecessary to match Reaper technology.[/quote]The entirety of 5th fleet being able to outweigh a single reaper does not entail being able to win against the Reapers in and of itself, because the Reapers won't be fighting as individuals. They will be an opposing fleet of Reapers.

Sovereign was able to be beaten because it was outnumbered many times over by the Alliance and Citadel forces on the field, once his geth allies were removed (as they were). This can't be expected to happen again in the coming war: the Reapers don't have to come piecemeil at us, where all our fleets can combine and outnumber theirs. They will be able to withdraw and not lose position in the next war. They will be able, via the nature of FTL, to pick and choose their attack points, while retreating into empty space when done. They will be able to decide when to withdraw from battle after inflicting casualties, and avoid being outweighed in the manner Sovereign was.

The galaxy outnumbers the Reapers. But this doesn't matter if you can't bring those numbers to bear. At the Citadel, Sovereign was stuck in a situtation where it could be confronted, easily outnumbered, couldn't retreat and try again. That can not be expected to happen again as your means of fighting the reapers: if a Reaper in the enemy force sees its shields drop to troubling levels, it can FTL out of there. As long as they maintain the firepower to cut through your ships with abandon while you can't do the same, they can come, shoot as many ships as they can, and leave, leaving you with a decimated force (such as the 5th fleet after Sovereign) while the other Reapers remain ready to move in.

[Ieldra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sovereign was able to be beaten because it was outnumbered many times over by the Alliance and Citadel forces on the field, once his geth allies were removed (as they were). This can't be expected to happen again in the coming war: the Reapers don't have to come piecemeil at us, where all our fleets can combine and outnumber theirs. They will be able to withdraw and not lose position in the next war. They will be able, via the nature of FTL, to pick and choose their attack points, while retreating into empty space when done. They will be able to decide when to withdraw from battle after inflicting casualties, and avoid being outweighed in the manner Sovereign was.

The galaxy outnumbers the Reapers. But this doesn't matter if you can't bring those numbers to bear. At the Citadel, Sovereign was stuck in a situtation where it could be confronted, easily outnumbered, couldn't retreat and try again. That can not be expected to happen again as your means of fighting the reapers: if a Reaper in the enemy force sees its shields drop to troubling levels, it can FTL out of there. As long as they maintain the firepower to cut through your ships with abandon while you can't do the same, they can come, shoot as many ships as they can, and leave, leaving you with a decimated force (such as the 5th fleet after Sovereign) while the other Reapers remain ready to move in.

It's even worse than that: the superior numbers didn't kill Sovereign. In fact, the whole fleet fired at it without doing the slightest bit of damage. Only Sovereign's prime objective played into the fleet's hands: it had to keep its agent on the Citadel active at all costs to overwrite the controls, which enabled Shepard to weaken its defences by killing Zombie-Saren. In a straightforward fight, Sovereign would have torn the whole fleet to shreds.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ieldra, this comes to a difference of conclusion. I don't think that reflects what happened. If Sovereign needed to override the block at all costs, there must have been a need for doing so, or else all costs wouldn't apply.



Yes, I believe trying to kill Shepard was a mark of Sovereign recognizing the fleet was wearing down his defenses and he wouldn't win: otherwise, he'd have had no reason not to simply outweigh the temporary delay (as said by Vigil) and endure the attacks. The choice to speed up the process indicates a need to do so, and the only basis for the need would be if otherwise Sovereign would be overwhelmed.



We know that Reapers individually can't take out entire fleets. That was why Sovereign had to gather allies and find a back door in the first place.



What that doesn't mean, in regards to General User, is that simply because a fleet can take down a Reaper, that an armada can take down a fleet of Reapers. Not only do we not have a fleet for each Reaper ever made, we can't get them to the same place as easily as the Reapers can move either.

[Barquiel]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Barquiel:
The complaint is not that Miranda's distrust of TIM isn't foreshadowed. Depending on your interpretation, it is. The complaint is that her recommendation at the base goes against several character traits, of which Cerberus loyalty is only one:
(1) Her loyalty. You can say this is foreshadowed, but it still comes out of the blue.
(2) Her pragmatism. Regardless of her change of loyalty, she'd see the merits of keeping the base. At the very least, I'd have expected her to be indecisive about it.
(3) Her protectiveness towards her sister. If she resigns, Oriana will be left unprotected, maybe even taken in by Cerberus as a punishment.
(4) Her emotional detachment. Even recommending to destroy the base, she wouldn't say such a plainly silly thing like "this feels like a betrayal".

The Pragia facility (maybe the overlord project too) was probably the first time she saw the "dark" side of Cerberus (and not the "human STG").
Miranda doesn't know everything that TIM has done...and, as far as we know, the Lazarus cell has done nothing horrible. They revived Shepard, Miranda helped Jacob to save the citadel, etc.

During the suicide mission, some colonist (or Kelly!) was liquefied right in front of her eyes. Tens of thousands of dead colonists.
...and her latest impression of Cerberus: they torture/kill children, they tortured an autistic man

I think her reaction is understandable.

Modifié par Barquiel, 15 octobre 2010 - 01:47 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Miranda is aware of the worst we can bring to her attention. It's not news to her, or contrast her previous claims, such as that those people overstepped their bounds and were wrong.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 octobre 2010 - 01:49 .

[mosor]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


That's also possible. The guy maybe a double agent. Infiltrated Cerberus on TSB's behalf, then defected / was caught. Or was Cerberus, then was recruited by the Broker (via Wilson) and caught / switched sides again, or the whole scheme was TIM's idea from the very start. And now he is feeding TSB with all kinds of misinformation wrapped up in hefty pieces of good but non-critical stuff.

Doesn't say Mordin is clean. It's not like I confine him to the Normandy at the hub ports (like I do with Jack). But as I said, TIM may be counting on it, and his "need-to-know basis" approach is fully justified even with the most Cerberus-loyal Shepard.

BTW, the EDI-Legion piece incriminates Shepard in having all kinds of AI activity onboard!

The info is also highly mundane. Jacob's workout video? LOL.! Seriously, none of the info the Shadow Broker has on Cerberus, or the Normandy crew is mission critical. No Kahoku assination, no Akuze, no rachni or thorian experiments, nothing on how the SR2 was developed, nothing on EDI. Sounds like TIM was managing info released to the Shadow Broker. That makes sense. To me that's smart. Only a matter of time before the Shadow Broker infiltrates. Might as well have a guy you trust do it for you, pretending to be the Broker's man on the inside and giving some juicy info that looks good on paper, but ultimately will do nothing to hurt your organization. Maybe that double agent is how Cerberus got the Shadow Broker intel for you to give Liara.

[mosor]

Barquiel wrote...

The Pragia facility (maybe the overlord project too) was probably the first time she saw the "dark" side of Cerberus (and not the "human STG").
Miranda doesn't know everything that TIM has done...and, as far as we know, the Lazarus cell has done nothing horrible. They revived Shepard, Miranda helped Jacob to save the citadel, etc.

During the suicide mission, some colonist (or Kelly!) was liquefied right in front of her eyes. Tens of thousands of dead colonists.
...and her latest impression of Cerberus: they torture/kill children, they tortured an autistic man

I think her reaction is understandable.

Yeah but she gets in a fight with Jack defending Cerberus over Pragia. She always seemed to have a ruthless streak about her (unless she grows to care about you). I wouldn't be suprised if it was her that released the mechs at lazarus station rather than Wilson.

The whole squad being against saving the base just smacks of bad writing. Especially, considering half of them urge you to keep it when you're actually making the decision.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

While not mentioned explicitly, Vigil mentions how the Relays were shut down for the Protheans, while the Reapers were able to move across the galaxy. An implication, in accordance with ME2, is that the Relays were turned to an 'IFF Only' Mode, blocking the Reapers victims but allowing the Reapers to move as they pleased.

See I got the impression that once the Reapers had control of the Citadel (their first target, for many reasons) they would open and close mass relays for their fleets at their own discretion, much as Shepard did for 5th Fleet. And that the Reapers undertook their extermination campaigns in a systematic, coordinated fashion.  I don't think it really states either way, it's just the impression I got. 

What in ME2 makes you think all the relays have an IFF only mode?  I've only done two playthru's (on ME2) so I might have missed something.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Only for an extremely liberal, effectively meaningless definition of arrogance as 'not covering every extreme improbability', which sounds nice and reasonable in theory but doesn't really work out in practice on any practical level. And also for a very menaingless, erroneous definition of plot hole.

For it to be a plot hole, there would have to be some assertion in the plot that the Reapers could change the Reaper IFF code for individual relays at will. You might not agree with that from a design standpoint, but a plot hole? Not at all.

Why build a system that can only be controlled from the Citadel? Here's a very simple answer: so that organics, rushing to try and react to the Mass Relay networks being closed to them but not the Reapers, can't have an opportunity to discover the hidden function that would allow them to outright turn off the relay/bar the Reapers from moving through the Relay, thus giving them a chance to

A galactic level extinction campaign is, by nature, an extreme event. As such is the Reapers chosen undertaking, it is beholden on them to plan for the extremely improbable and desperate. Such preparations needn't be particularly extreme themselves, having the Vanguard (or rather an agent thereof) do a regular check-in on the Citadel itself to make sure everything is copasetic should have been standard procedure.
Perhaps plot hole is the wrong wording. It’s just something that makes no sense, it's a logic hole! Like why missiles or nukes don’t work in ME, or how it is that FTL communication, but not sensors, can exist. Inconsistencies like that are the reason I find myself increasingly inclined to see the ME story in terms of more subjective standards like morality and emotion, as opposed to logic and reason.   
Organics on the Citadel wouldn’t react to anything during a reaping except the massive Reaper fleet that just dropped right on their heads. The Citadel was always the Reapers first target.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

None of those mark the safe zone in any way as beeing too large to seed with Occuli, even going with the assumption of all three points... which need not be given.

How do we know that the Normandy was going at full speed, as opposed to going as fast as Jeff thought possible as he threaded the debris field? Fast as possible doesn't necessarily mean that fast in there.

Point two is meaningless, because it doesn't mean anything. So what if it's extensive, how does that make it impossible?

Statistical clustering can explain point three (and, by extension, part of point two): the safe vector of approach from the relay (guaranteed by the IFF) puts you in that vicinity, while the drift from going through the relay is more likely to put you into the black holes from the get go. The relay only has a narrow band of 'acceptable' drift, which can be guarded by the occuli, while the rest is instant death.

Of course the Normandy was going as fast as Joker thought possible! He was performing combat maneuvers against both the CS and the occuli. Pilots do not hold back in combat maneuvers. They do sometimes find themselves in the position of having restrictions put upon their performance. In this case it would be something like: “if we stray beyond point [A], on heading [B], at velocity [C], we’ll be unable to recover and be drawn inextricably towards hazard [D].” 

The extensiveness of the debris field is relevant because each of those wrecks each represent a failed attempt to pass through the Ω4. Now some of those wrecks exited the relay too close to the black hole and were either drawn into the event horizon, or settled into an orbit from which they could not recover, dying slowly. Some exited too far away and fell victim to another navigation hazard (Jacob mentions radiation and exploding suns, but as time goes by other wrecks themselves would constitute a hazard in their own right). But some, by pure chance if nothing else, managed to hit the goldilocks zone, ie the wrecks the Normandy has to maneuver through. While it isn’t explicitly stated, it can be safely assumed that the Collectors use those wrecks as a source of raw and semi-refined material.  Partially expalining the derth of debris close to the CB itself.

I do hope I didn’t give the impression that the debris field represents the boundary of the safe zone. Rather I believe that the safe zone is a volume of space which contains both the CB and a certain portion of the debris field.  The exact volume and shape of the safe zone was "nebulous" .

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I don't see why thouse would be assumed.

Nor do I. I assume quite the opposite; that a much larger portion of the debris field was seeded with occuli and those that engaged the Normandy were only those that were in range to do so.  That does leave open the question of why, if there were other occuli about, did they not come looking for the Normandy after the crash?  Was their control on the CS, or the CB itself?  Were they simply not activated?  But if they are out there at all, doesn't that mean the safe zone is quite large?  And if they aren't out there, why not?  If Harbinger could predict the exact exit an location a ship would exit, why not concentrate all force on that vicinity?  Questions, questions, questions.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why would they want to destroy their own vanguard, repulse their attack, neutralize their allies, and take a base they already have? You're making no sense, Watson!

You're arguing from end-result, not capabilities. Which is meaningless given that none of the Reapers intents were for those results: it's like penalizing someone in an arbitrary race when they go somewhere else on their own.

Watson is my favorite planet in ME! I  Watson!


Lol not their own forces, of course, that would be silly! But if the Collectors had been able to find and neutralize a major Cerberus facility, or attack and shut down a Cerberus operation, I’d have a lot more respect for them as adversaries, but they weren’t able to pull any of that off.

End –results, especially of an armed conflict, can be attributed to native capabilities, both physical and psychological. End-results, especially in armed conflict, are all that matters.  I don't understand how an enemy's specific intents during a given action matter any further than being able to stop/counter them, ie they intend to harvest Horizon, we intend to stop them.  Just as understanding their base intentions matter a great deal during the opening and closing phases of a war (and for spies and diplomats during).

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sure, the logical path is cunning. No one is saying they weren't smart. But how does that make them more cunning than the Reapers? It's not like their hiding was all their own ingenuity: the data of their lab location was lost to the Reapers in the initial attack on the Citadel, pure chance.

Fair enough, pure chance it is. I’m more inclined to say “divine providence” myself. But that’s a matter of worldview beyond the scope of ME.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Au contrair, Sovereign and the Geth were outnumbered, and geth superiority is much exagerated. Sovereign and the Gether were always in poorer position: that's why they didn't attack sooner, and looked for the Conduit as a means to infiltrate the Citadel and lock down the relays from immediate reinforcements. Because it was judged they couldn't win a stand-up fight... which is exactly what ended up happening.

Eh, agree to disagree. Not that Sovereign needed/wanted the Conduit to launch his attack, that’s obvious beyond debate! And, if you're so inclined, I would be very interested to read a threat assessment of the geth, would you mind posting a link or such?

I just got the impression that Sovereign’s surprise attack was spectacularly successful, at least against the station keeping fleet, and that the Reaper fleet quickly found itself holding the upper hand. Since we aren’t given exact force levels and capability assessments for any of the three forces at the Battle of the Citadel all anyone can do is make a guess based on impressions.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or his minions were killed by Shepard on the way up, if any were capable at all. Saren's ground forces were always smaller than the fleet outside. And those forces were tied up by the Citadel fleets and 5th Fleet.

Harbinger's drone setup was through a dedicated setup of the Collectors, a mellina-engineered force made for that purpose.

Saren and his allies were... not.

Yeah, I gotta think you’re right. Shepard shredded the ground force Sovereign had available in its entirety on her way to the Council Chamber. I was talking more about massed wave attacks as a tactic in general than procession of a specific minion to lead them. Who knows why Sovereign deployed his forces the way he did? It’s more indicative of stupidity than arrogance.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The entirety of 5th fleet being able to outweigh a single reaper does not entail being able to win against the Reapers in and of itself, because the Reapers won't be fighting as individuals. They will be an opposing fleet of Reapers.

Sovereign was able to be beaten because it was outnumbered many times over by the Alliance and Citadel forces on the field, once his geth allies were removed (as they were). This can't be expected to happen again in the coming war: the Reapers don't have to come piecemeil at us, where all our fleets can combine and outnumber theirs. They will be able to withdraw and not lose position in the next war. They will be able, via the nature of FTL, to pick and choose their attack points, while retreating into empty space when done. They will be able to decide when to withdraw from battle after inflicting casualties, and avoid being outweighed in the manner Sovereign was.

The galaxy outnumbers the Reapers. But this doesn't matter if you can't bring those numbers to bear. At the Citadel, Sovereign was stuck in a situtation where it could be confronted, easily outnumbered, couldn't retreat and try again. That can not be expected to happen again as your means of fighting the reapers: if a Reaper in the enemy force sees its shields drop to troubling levels, it can FTL out of there. As long as they maintain the firepower to cut through your ships with abandon while you can't do the same, they can come, shoot as many ships as they can, and leave, leaving you with a decimated force (such as the 5th fleet after Sovereign) while the other Reapers remain ready to move in.

I don’t understand. If control of the mass relay network is centralized on the Citadel, which we control, why can’t we shut the Reapers out of the network when they do enter the Milky Way, and thus engage them "at our pleasure" (ala Lawrence of Arabia)? Unless of course there is a local override protocol after all (I believe there is).

The character of combat between space-borne, FTL capable forces does tend to favor the offense over the defense, that’s just the nature of the beast so to speak. It is incumbent on the admirals leading a force to train, and deploy their forces in such a fashion as to take the best advantage of a given situation during combat, be that offense or defense. In the end, any FTL capable force can withdraw if it feels it is to its own best advantage to do so.

If the Reapers do enjoy an intrinsic advantage in terms of general strategy, it’s that they don’t have any fixed targets (the Citadel, Arcturus, various home worlds) that must be defended. That can be a major disadvantage as well, since there are a limited number of places where they can be expected to strike, and only one must have location where they certainly will strike.

[Inverness Moon]

[quote]Arijharn wrote...

I have to ask though; what made (or what do you believe made) TIM believe Shephard's word when no one else of any real power did? Or was it only after Shephard died galavanting across the galaxy that they're opinion's changed?

Lets assume that TIM has all the intelligence/mission briefs about Shep's claim that the Reapers existed as the other species, how then could TIM be the only one who came to the belief that Shephard was telling the complete truth despite Shephard's actions probably being the most unlikely to engender that response in TIM?[/quote]TIM is a different sort of person I think. He isn't a coward and he is someone who would want to know the truth even if it is unpleasant rather than trying to bury his head and the sand and live in ignorance. There is also the fact that the reapers represent the greatest threat to his goals, so he would be smart to verify whether or not they exist.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Alliance handed the reaper problem to Cerberus to investigate.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Cerberus didn't retrieve the IFF, Shepard did after TIM lead him into an ambush. The least he could have done was sent an encrypted message to Shepard and telling him to have precausions in place for a quick get away. Instead he lied and let Shepard improvise that nearly got Shepard and his crew killed.[/quote]The IFF was on that table to pick up because of Cerberus's efforts. Otherwise they might have had to search the whole 2km ship and could have been overwhelmed or affected by the indoctrination before they escaped. And if they had just gone straight for the core they would have blown up the IFF too.

[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

They gave Shepard an outdated ship. Yeah... Thanks, Cerberus. I'm sure the Alliance could have madea better Normandy SR2 than Cerberus. Afterall, the Alliance is more open with working with aliens and it lead to the creation of the SR1 which was revolutionary at its creation while the SR2 was an outdated mess at its creation. The dossiers were TIMs way of saying 'This is who will bee on your crew.'. Than again, Bioware didn't give Shepard the option of giving TIM the bird and getting his own crew that didn't have a bunch of daddy issues. Out of the whole crew only Mordin is absolutely essential, everyone else wasen't one of a kind.[/quote]An outdated ship? On what do you base that assumption? The SR1 was the most advanced ship the Alliance fleet if not the most advanced ship of any Citadel race. And in only two years Cerberus improves on its design and capabilities and you think it's outdated? That doesn't make sense.

Also, don't forget that it was Cerberus that pushed for the creation of the SR1.

And Legion certainly is one of a kind. Jack is the most powerful human biotic alive. Justicars are rare and don't often leave Asari space. Thane is one of the best assassins alive. Archangel is almost as much of a one-man army as Shepard. Tali is extremely talented if not a genius by quarian standards. I could go on more, but the point of this is that they don't know what they would find on the other side of the Omega 4 Relay, so Cerberus compiled dossiers on the best of the best in many different areas of expertise.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Hell, when you mention that you don't trust Miranda and Jacob you know what TIM basically says? Tough, it's his operation and Shepard is meant to obey and take who TIM wants on that ship.
There are ways to inform Shepard without having the Collectors tipped off. TIM could even have done it the old fashion way of writing it on paper and having it sent to Shepard while telling him to pretend to fall into the trap because the IFF is needed. Instead he lied and nearly got Shepard killed.[/quote]You're misunderstanding the situation. If you inform Shepard his conscious or subconscious actions could tip off the collectors in any number of ways. You make "pretend to fall into the trap" sound so easy.

The collectors might know if Shepard changes his behavior when suspecting a trap. If they found out Shepard knew about the trap and decided to attack him ASAP, then Shepard might not even have gotten to the point where EDI could have connected to their system and data-mined it for information so they could figure out how to get through the relay.

TIM realizes this so he didn't tell Shepard. He is confident in Shepard's abilities.

[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Do you even read the e-mails or play LoTSB? Hackett isn't rolling over and just letting the politicians like Udina have their way. Hell, the Alliance would have tracked down and interrogated Shepard had Hackett not given Shepard the benefit of the doubt. After all, she never once questioned Shepard about Saren or the Reapers and has actively pushed for humanity embracing the other aliens of the galaxy.[/quote]
Hackett defending Shepard from alliance interrogators in no way suggests that the Alliance is doing anything about the reapers. It just means Hackett himself believes in Shepard or doesn't believe that he should be treated like a traitor or a crazy person, etc.

[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

The derelict Reaper still had its systems. They weren't blown to bits and you know what? That Reaper caused the crew to go mad. What did a blown up Soveriegn do? Nothing, because there was nothing left to activate the defenses let alone tamper with the minds of organic life. Thus you can't compare the two. Soveriegn is no longer in tact while the derelict Reaper actually had parts in tact and connected to the systems. Cerberus moving in and hooking their systems into the still mostly intact Reaper was a 'very' bad idea.[/quote]

We don't know how indoctrination works, you can't assume pieces of Sovereign can't indoctrinate or that some component of the indoctrination system wasn't one of the salvaged parts, we don't know. Looking for information about reaper construction in the collector base would help answer these questions.

Cerberus also could not have known that indoctrination still occurred in the reaper's corpse 37 million years after it was killed.

[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

The Reapers have already shown that they have more toys than just indoctrinating everything. What defenses that base has could very well end with as all ventures that Cerberus undertakes with Reaper tech. Failure.[/quote]

Of course, but it is a necessary risk.

[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

If he wasen't addressing it than why was he outside the Collector Generals body and as a hologram? Maybe because Harbringer was addressing it and telling it that it was cutting off its loses and letting it die.[/quote]
That hologram was there to show us that Harbinger actually was a reaper. It's quite obvious when you watch the scene that Harbinger says "releasing control" then the collector general's eyes stop glowing, meaning Harbinger has left that body behind. That was basically the moment that everyone found out for certain that the collector general was just another body for Harbinger to possess.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Oh really? Can I see that bit?[/quote]The reapers implant organics with nanomachines that use quantum entanglement communication, the same that TIM uses to connect to the Normandy, to connect to the reapers in dark space. What happened in Retribution matches up with how Harbinger possessed the collector general and how Sovereign possessed Saren. They connect through semi-organic bodies rather than directly into the computer.

If Harbinger was directly connected to the collector base then he wouldn't need a collector general to sit at the console all the time.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

To the Alliance it DOES matter who Shepard is working with. Cerberus has terrorized Aliens and Humans alike and conducted inhumane experiments on both. It isn't far feteched for them to believe that a Shepard brought back from the dead might be under Cerberus control. After all, Shepard never contacted the Alliance and basically did everything that TIM wanted just like a good pet should. I would be suspicious as well.[/quote]They can be suspicious all they want, they should be, but they didn't mention the reapers or anything when Shepard visited the Citadel to talk to Anderson. If anyone was actually doing something against the reapers then Shepard's apparent association with Cerberus wouldn't have been a good enough excuse not to say something like "hey, we're going to deal with the reapers, but we can't tell you because you're working with Cerberus."

Just face the facts, the Alliance and Council have buried their heads into the sand.

[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

The Alliance owed Shepard nothing. He died after all and they gave Shepard full honors at the funeral. Even started up funds after Shepard. Besides, Shepard knew that he came back to life before the Alliance did. So no, it wasen't the Alliance that should have approached Shepard first. It should have been Shepard to approach the alliance. Instead Shepard keeps information from the Alliance and helps Cerberus.

Who, I might add again, are a bunch of terrorist that the Alliance despises.
[/quote]Shepard is half of the reason they have a Council seat now, you better believe they owe him. Shepard did try to approach the Alliance through Anderson/Udina. Going to the Council is the proper thing to do since humanity is now a part of it. They dismissed *air-quotes* his claims.

Don't forget that not everyone in the Alliance despises Cerberus.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Lets try in real world standards. Would you welcome Obama in open arms if he came back from the dead but was working with the Taliban?

Also, sending Ashley/Kaiden to investigate doesn't look like doing nothing. Than there's Anderson and Hackett as well and it doesn't look like they're doing nothing either.[/quote]If I believed in the threat of the reapers it would be stupid not to.

It's good that Shepard has Anderson, and I'm assuming Hackett, on his side, since we don't know if Hackett just likes/respects Shepard or if he actually believes in the reapers. That is better than nothing but certainly not enough. They're apparently not enough the move the Alliance as a whole to do anything either.

Also, if you'd read Retribution, you'd know that Anderson finally gets some hard evidence that he says he can use to get some people to stop ignoring the reapers.

Here is a quote from when Anderson is talking to Sanders right before the epilogue:
[quote]
“Do you think this will finally convince the Council the Reapers are real?”
“You saw the research. You tell me.”
“Doubtful,” she admitted. “The technology inside him may have been based on Reaper designs, but it’s got Cerberus’s fingerprints all over it. And there’s no way to know who or what was controlling him. Not anymore. They’ll probably just put all the blame on the Illusive Man.”
“I may not be able to get the Council to listen to me, but there are people I can turn to … both in and outside the Alliance. We can’t ignore this anymore; something has to be done to try and stop the Reapers.”
“You want my permission to study him,” she said softly as the realization of what he was asking dawned on her. “You want to conduct autopsies. Take him apart and see what you can learn about their technology.”
“This isn’t the same as what Cerberus was doing,” he insisted. “I don’t condone what they did to him in any way. But they were right about one thing: the Reapers are coming, and we have to find a way to fight them.
“I promise he’ll be treated with respect and dignity,” he assured her. “But there are things we have to know.”
“I understand,” she said softly.
[/quote]
I think that goes far in showing how little to nothing was being done by anyone but Cerberus and Shepard. The only reason that Anderson got the evidence then is because of Cerberus.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Am I? Shepard does whatever TIM wants and pushes former allies back while expecting them to understand that he/she works with a  terrorist organization without ever explaining to them why. All Shepard says is 'I'm doing it for the right reasons, trust me!'. Yeah, that's hard to believe considering the history Cerberus has.[/quote]The Alliance and Council don't believe the reapers exist, so naturally they're not going to believe Shepard when he says he is only working with Cerberus to stop the reapers and their minions the collectors. There is also a difference between Shepard doing whatever TIM wants and Shepard agreeing with TIM.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Had Cerberus not been so greedy and shared knowledge of the Derelict Reaper with the Universe than they would have facts to back the Reaper claims! Instead Cerberus kept it to themselves and ended up losing the entire thing. Even than Cerberus refused to share any data they might have gotten from the derelict Reaper with anyone.[/quote]Cerberus wasn't being greedy, rather they weren't even finished studying the thing. You publish results after the research is done not before. It's hardly Cerberus's fault that they got indoctrinated, or that Shepard had to blow up the core to escape.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Thus the ones to blame for why Andersan has to fight to hard to get the truth out against Politicians and their stonewalling is Cerberus because they refused to share the only concrete information that had about the Reapers.[/quote]Here you go again, trying to blame everything on Cerberus.

First of all, if the Alliance had been actively doing something about the reapers, maybe they would have found the derelict reaper before Cerberus. Secondly, we have no idea when Cerberus found it or how long they have been working on it (though I don't remember if the in-game recordings mention that). It was most likely well after the Alliance dragged Shepard through the mud and began claiming that the reapers weren't real.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Blowing Reaper tech up and studying the scraps has yielded far more technological advances than trying to study intact Reaper tech that always ends up biting back. Also, the novels show that even if the base was destroyed Cerberus still goes to collect the scraps. Which is much safer and forces them to innovate instead of just taking the Base and using what it has.[/quote]Studying Sovereign yielded more advances because its been two years since it blew up. Cerberus found the derelict reaper most likely much more recently. They also have far less manpower than other groups when it comes to R&D.

Studying the scraps does tend to force you to innovate, but if you're suggesting Cerberus would just take and use technology from the base as-is then I disagree. Using the stuff as-is could be quite dangerous, the reaper IFF incident is a fine example of this. TIM is not going to just pick up shiny things from the base and start plugging them into ships.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

What good has Cerberus done outside of taking credit for what Shepard did? When the whole point of bring Shepard back was because they feared for themselves and their human agenda and not the rest of the galaxy. I make no fabrications. The information is there. Cerberus never once did anything that didn't benefit them. Their inaction in ME1 and them generally not caring about anyone but themselves in ME2 solidify's this.[/quote]What good has Cerberus done? They pushed for the creation of the SR1, something that was essential to Shepard's mission in ME1. They brought back Shepard for ME2, gave him a newer and improved SR2 including a reaper-based AI with anti-reaper algorithms. Just because TIM puts humanity before the rest of the galaxy doesn't change the fact that they did a lot of good by doing that. You can't ignore the results of their actions just because you might not like their intentions.

[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Reverse engineering a BLOWN UP Soveriegn's main gun. What Cerberus built was an outdated mess built on inhumane experiments while all the Alien upgrades are better and didn't need to resort to inhumane experiments that didn't pay off at all. I'm surprised TIM tries so hard since he has so many Rogue Cells and failed experiments.

Like I said, that new ship was an outdated mess that required the hep of Alien tech to be considered an upgrade over the Normandy SR1. When you first get the SR2 it's just a bigger SR1. Without the Alien upgrades it gets demolished rather easily, like the SR1, by the Collectors. The only difference being that Shepard knew the beating was coming but even than without the alien tech the SR2 gets smacked around silly.

Like I said, the only good thing Cerberus ever did was bringing Shepard back. However, concealing the fact that they brought back Shepard, so that no one would trust Shepard, ended up with everyone believing that Shepard was being controlled by Cerberus. Even Andersan cannot trust Shepard because TIM kept Shepard under wraps and Shepard never bothered to try and explain him/herself.
[/quote]How were the SR2, EDI, and/or Shepard himself built on inhumane experiments? You're not being very coherent.

Without all the alien upgrades the ship does get more damaged but it can still complete its mission. It is still a unique stealth capable ship essential to Shepard's mission. EDI is still a vital component to the mission built by Cerberus unlike the other alien upgrades. Stop denying reality.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Ashley was in the right to question Shepard after all she witnessed in ME1 and the fact that Cerberus has a reputation of doing stupid and violent things to push their agenda. The fact that Shepard never ONCE contacted her or tried to explain a thing only confirms her belief that Cerberus has done something to Shepard.[/quote]Ashley let her mistrust of Cerberus get in the way of her supposed trust in Shepard and the fight against the reapers. All the Horizon incident proved was that in the end, Shepard can't always trust either one of them to believe in him or even give him the time of day to explain himself.

Shepard tried to explain why he couldn't contact them but their blind hatred of Cerberus pushed that out the way easily enough. It's good to see that Tali and Garrus knew where to stand though. Tali herself had even more personal reasons to dislike Cerberus, yet she trusted Shepard.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Even if TIM didn't believe in the Reapers in ME1 he was more than content letting the Geth and Saren massacre innocents because he couldn't be bothered. Not once did TIM ever wonder why the Geth were listening to Saren who was an organic. You would think a man of TIM's calibur would have figured that Saren had new technology to control the Geth and would have wanted it. Instead he ignored everything that happened in ME1. Yet it I doubt Cerberus didn't help itself to some of the scraps of Soveriegn.[/quote]Sorry, but you're forgetting that neither Shepard nor the Council knew where Saren was for most of ME1 or what exactly he was doing. Shepard was following in his footsteps in order to find out what was up. Shepard got certain intelligence because he was a spectre that Cerberus was not privy to. Cerberus also didn't have a state-of-the-art stealth frigate like Shepard.

Also, you have no idea how TIM felt about what Saren was going or if he had the resources to do anything about it (though we know Cerberus didn't have a stealth ship obviously). You're just making more unfounded assumptions, stop it.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

It seems that TIM does. After all, he has how many cells operating and performing inhumane experiments? A lot. Not to mention that he had the budget to bring back Shepard and build an outdated ship for him. So yeah, I would have to say that TIM has virtually limitless funds since he has never given any reason to doubt so. As for the outdated ship... It was only outdated because TIM refused to work with aliens that would have corrected the outdated tech with the better stuff. Funding was never an issue for Cerberus. [/quote]Virtually limitless is not the same as unlimited. TIM has quite a lot of money, but what he doesn't have is a lot of manpower.

And stop claiming that the SR2 is outdated. Just because it doesn't have every upgrade in the galaxy doesn't mean it is outdated, it is still one of it not the only stealth ships in the galaxy and is still based on state-of-the-art technology.

It's also quite amusing that you're suggesting that TIM refused to work with aliens to get more upgrades. It's also quite ridiculous. Assuming TIM even knew these upgrades existed, do you think anyone would voluntarily upgraded a Cerberus ship with them? Even if they didn't know it was a Cerberus ship, this still would have been happening before Shepard had been revived. There is a lot of technology and equipment reserved to special people like spectres.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

I expected TIM to have done something. As ME2 has shown, TIM doesn't need an army to do things. Sure TIM doesn't have someone like Shepard but I honestly doubt that he doesn't have experts for those dirty jobs that Cerberus needs done. Than there's the option of TIM hiring mercenaries to deal with the Geth while salvaging any tech he could. After all, the Geth tech is far more advanced than much of the tech that the Citadel races uses. Which is understandable, they're machines and they got gifts from Soveriegn.
TIM is about information. He most likely knew where Shepard was going long before Shepard jumped the Mass Effect Relays. He could easily have coordinated his minions to be elsewhere and out of Shepards way. Of course TIM didn't do that either. Instead TIM was content just doing inhumane experiments and ignoring the Geth incursions and attacks on humanity.[/quote]TIM does have quite the information network, but it is not without limits. You don't really know what TIM knew so you can't make such assumptions about what he could have done. Again, it was Shepard's job to deal with Saren and the geth, that is why you don't see C-Sec in there dealing with them or the Alliance sending fleets in. They have someone on the job with unique capabilities (stealth ship) and they don't want to get in the way.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Cerberus didn't even try. It wouldn't have been that hard to have sent a Team on the planet and forge Alliance IDs to clear them. With no signal contacts going out they could have easily gotten away with that. Hell, the data that could have been obtained from Virmire sounds like something TIM would have wanted to exploit. Yet strangely enough he was content having Cerberus just doing the current inhumane experiments and the such. He didn't even bother monitoring Virmire from space. Yet when the Normandy crashed Cerberus kept a close eye on the crash site.[/quote]Sent a team to where? Virmire? How would they have known? The STG sent a signal on channels reserved for Council and Spectre communications. Only the Council knew about it and they told Shepard to investigate. Cerberus could not have found out about it without extreme difficulty.

Cerberus also wouldn't spend time tracking where all the STG teams are deployed if they could even find them.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Just because I'm blowing up the base doesn't mean that I'm not trying my best to stop the Reapers. However, I'm looking at reality here. Cerberus has proven ostly incompetent and their only star achievement was me. While intact Reaper Tech has always struck back. The Derelict Reaper just further confirmed my point of view on Intact Reaper Tech and how incompetent Cerberus is.[/quote]Cerberus was competent enough to bring Shepard back from the dead so that you have to game to play in ME2. That deserves some credit, along with EDI. If you're blowing the base up then you're not doing everything you can. Because even a small chance that Cerberus could get something useful from the base is better than nothing, especially with the odds you're facing.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

It isn't YOUR issues with Cerberus. It's the issues Cerberus has with everyone else. Giving Cerberus that toy will not help matters at all since we've been shown that Cerberus can't make up to date tech, since they refuse to work with aliens and get a second opinion on any tech they obtain, and it will only further entrage the Citadel races and the Alliance when they find out the truth. After all, Cerberus has never done them any favors other than killing innocents and willingness to attack them to protect their radical agenda.[/quote]First of all, your whole idea that the SR2 isn't up to date is ridiculous for reasons explained previously. Cerberus also doesn't refuse to work with allies considering the dossiers TIM compiled for Shepard. Cerberus did everyone a favor by pushing for the creation of the first Normandy.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Well, your judgement isn't correct since many base destroyers in this thread have given NUMEROUS reasons why they blew up the base while also providing valid reasons on how they did so because they're focused on the Reapers. I'm sorry, but believing that the Collector Base is a treasure trove of goodies that wont bite back, like the Derelict Reaper, is wishful thinking. Intact Reaper Tech has a proven history of always backfiring on organics trying to access it.[/quote]No base destroyer has given a good and logical reason yet. And once again you assume I think the collector base is a "treasure trove of goodies that wont bite back." Stop distorting my argument.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

More reason to innovate and not blind oneself to intact Reaper tech that will lead you down the path that Reapers had pre-determined and have back ups for. I mean look how quick the Reapers adapted to Soveriegn's demise! They had the Collectors kill Shepard in no time. I doubt they wont have a response to organics using the Base without their permission.[/quote]The collectors have always been around trading advanced technology, the reapers simply re-purposed them for a moment to deal with Shepard, that is nothing special. And they most likely don't have a large force in the galaxy that they could call upon anymore now that the collectors are dealt with. You're making unfounded assumptions again.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

If the Base does have a massive problem than it might be too late to destroy it by than. That's a huge risk there. Better to blow it up and gather the scraps since intact Reaper Tech tends to bite back while a completely blown up Soveriegn created many innovations in the galaxy. See?[/quote]You have no idea when it will be too late to destroy it. Also, you're supporting the argument for keeping the base since you just said that the pieces of sovereign created so many innovations. Intact collector and reaper technology will provide even more assuming any traps can be dealt with.
[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

Chance of threat and maybe not getting much from the Base or no chance of threat and maybe not getting much from the scraps. Though with the track record the scraps have I feel that it's the better and less risky choice. After all, if the Base ends up like the Derelict Reaper than a majority the data gained from it would end up being lost once it causes a massive problem.
[/quote]We don't know what data was lost from the derelict reaper other than the reaper itself. It's entirely possible that the research team's data was automatically backed up somewhere safe.

Your logic is backwards if you think we'll get more from the scraps than we could from the intact base. Like I said before, you can't assume there will be a point when it is too late to blow it up.


Anyhow, now that I'm done typing all of that. The only reason I'm bothering to respond with you now is because I believe I might get through to you somehow like as with others in this thread. But even now you still make unfounded assumptions and still misunderstand my stance on the collector base no matter how much I've explained it. I've decided that you're simply not willing to hear what I have to say or even deal in logic and facts instead of emotions and assumptions. I'll explain my position one more time then I'm done arguing with you.

I save the collector base for the simple reason that we have a near-zero chance against the reapers. The collector base represents a chance that we could gain something of valuable to increase our chances against the reapers. I have no idea whether Cerberus will be successful with the collector base and it would be foolish to assume that they will either fail or succeed. But more importantly, it would be foolish for me to assume that the collector base could not be the only chance we get for gaining some advantage against the reapers that could save our asses. Any chance is better than nothing.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]General User wrote...

What in ME2 makes you think all the relays have an IFF only mode?  I've only done two playthru's (on ME2) so I might have missed something.[/quote]The general knowledge of secret functions on the Mass Relays, not only on the Omega 4 but on others as well. (The 'Dark Switches', for example.) Being able to increase/decrease precision similar to the Omega 4 is a highly likely capability: it even goes back into ME1. The regular Mass Relays are known to have drift, and part of the lore of ME is that it's hard to put a mass of ships through without extreme drift. Even the Normandy under joker is 'good' if drift is under a certain amount: one of the big points of contention in ME naval combat is if its better to jump your fleet pretty much as a group, with wild displacement, or stream it in piecemiel.
 
Yet when Sovereign, a beast in and of himself, accesses the Relay to attack the Citadel with a host of Geth ships, they come in tightly packed, with minimal drift, despite greater mass and numbers than the later 5th fleet. An explanation for this would be the same as the basis for the Omega 4 relay: Sovereign's Reaper IFF allowed the Reaper and his forces to use the full ability of the Mass Relay.

Given the impunity of Reapers traveling after the Citadel 'shuts down' the relays to Organics, the IFF providing full, unlimited functionality to the Relays is a reasonable inference.




[quote]
A galactic level extinction campaign is, by nature, an extreme event. As such is the Reapers chosen undertaking, it is beholden on them to plan for the extremely improbable and desperate. Such preparations needn't be particularly extreme themselves, having the Vanguard (or rather an agent thereof) do a regular check-in on the Citadel itself to make sure everything is copasetic should have been standard procedure.[/quote]Who says they didn't make checks? It could well be the checks they put in place didn't catch the specific avenue the Protheans did... which isn't unreasonable either. It's not like the Keepers underwent a major change: they are still slaves to the Citadel, still do exactly everything else they did.

The Reapers probably disagree that a galactic level extinction campaign is an extreme event: it's positively routine for them.

[quote]
Perhaps plot hole is the wrong wording. It’s just something that makes no sense, it's a logic hole! Like why missiles or nukes don’t work in ME, or how it is that FTL communication, but not sensors, can exist.[/quote]Nukes do work. They just aren't effective do to missile interception and the limitation of nukes in space. ME tech in the codex goes over this. Missiles are the 'slow' munition, and vulnerable to fast CIC, while conventional accelerator rounds go extremely fast) with force already comparable to nuclear weapons. (1/3 the speed of light for Dreadnaught fire, every three seconds, 1/10th a Hiroshima). Nukes are still powerful, but lack the means to get there.

Similarly, the basis of FTL communication isn't conductive to detection. FTL has to go through its own mini-relay bouyey system of massless space as well: interspace telegraph wire, effectively, unless you have a quantam device. Which is useless for detection. The FTL relays can receive FTL communications, but they can't detect it before it arrives, so it's the same problem as before.


[quote]Of course the Normandy was going as fast as Joker thought possible! He was performing combat maneuvers against both the CS and the occuli. Pilots do not hold back in combat maneuvers. They do sometimes find themselves in the position of having restrictions put upon their performance. In this case it would be something like: “if we stray beyond point [A], on heading [B], at velocity [C], we’ll be unable to recover and be drawn inextricably towards hazard [D].” [/quote]Let me rephrase: as fast as Joker thought possible for that terrain is not the same as fast as the ship can go. Pilots, drivers, everyone working with speed knows that the faster you go, the harder handling is, and in a debris field handling is far superior to speed.

[quote]
The extensiveness of the debris field is relevant because each of those wrecks each represent a failed attempt to pass through the Ω4. Now some of those wrecks exited the relay too close to the black hole and were either drawn into the event horizon, or settled into an orbit from which they could not recover, dying slowly. Some exited too far away and fell victim to another navigation hazard (Jacob mentions radiation and exploding suns, but as time goes by other wrecks themselves would constitute a hazard in their own right). But some, by pure chance if nothing else, managed to hit the goldilocks zone, ie the wrecks the Normandy has to maneuver through. While it isn’t explicitly stated, it can be safely assumed that the Collectors use those wrecks as a source of raw and semi-refined material.  Partially expalining the derth of debris close to the CB itself.[/quote]...and this still has nothing to do with how the safe zone is a massive space, relatively speaking.
 [quote]
I do hope I didn’t give the impression that the debris field represents the boundary of the safe zone. Rather I believe that the safe zone is a volume of space which contains both the CB and a certain portion of the debris field.  The exact volume and shape of the safe zone was "nebulous" .[/quote]Oh, in that case, I withdraw all protests. I misunderstood what you were trying to say: when you said it was big, I thought you meant in terms of, say, a solar system.

Nothing we see is too big for Occuli defenses, so it's moot.

[quote]Nor do I. I assume quite the opposite; that a much larger portion of the debris field was seeded with occuli and those that engaged the Normandy were only those that were in range to do so.  That does leave open the question of why, if there were other occuli about, did they not come looking for the Normandy after the crash?  Was their control on the CS, or the CB itself?  Were they simply not activated?  But if they are out there at all, doesn't that mean the safe zone is quite large?  And if they aren't out there, why not?  If Harbinger could predict the exact exit an location a ship would exit, why not concentrate all force on that vicinity?  Questions, questions, questions.[/quote]Can't saw without more information. The possibility also remains that with the ship already on the surface, the Collectors saw more point in scrambling the defenses on the base itself, rather than looking for an already shot-down ship.

[quote]Lol not their own forces, of course, that would be silly! But if the Collectors had been able to find and neutralize a major Cerberus facility, or attack and shut down a Cerberus operation, I’d have a lot more respect for them as adversaries, but they weren’t able to pull any of that off.[/quote]Well, indirectly they did so twice: the Shadow Broker ruined much of the Lazarus cell station to get Shepard for the Collectors, and then later the Derilect Reaper ruined a Cerberus team. The Reapers have long reach indeed, even so indirectly.

The Collectors certainly abducted more colonies than Cerberus could.
[quote]Yeah, I gotta think you’re right. Shepard shredded the ground force Sovereign had available in its entirety on her way to the Council Chamber. I was talking more about massed wave attacks as a tactic in general than procession of a specific minion to lead them. Who knows why Sovereign deployed his forces the way he did? It’s more indicative of stupidity than arrogance.[/quote]Actually, while overrun by Shepard (the player Mary Sue), I thought most of it was good. All up the tower you were running into hasty defensive positions, already being reinforced by Turrents, shields, and as many troops behind cover as they could to block choke points.

That they failed is more that Shepard was better than that they sucked. But then, Shepard eats things that ruin competent people for breakfast.

[quote]
I don’t understand. If control of the mass relay network is centralized on the Citadel, which we control, why can’t we shut the Reapers out of the network when they do enter the Milky Way, and thus engage them "at our pleasure" (ala Lawrence of Arabia)? Unless of course there is a local override protocol after all (I believe there is).
[/quote]For the first point, we don't understand how to use the Citadel to its full capability. It's made to hide its true functions from us: we still don't know where the the Keepers spawn/feed/get their supplies, even though it has to be inside the Citadel.

For another, there's the Reaper IFF theory I believe in, though I won't rest on it.

But most importantly, Mass Relays aren't the only means of FTL travel. Just the most convenient and best, but if the Reapers avoid the paths they'll be mostly untraceable. We know they can travel far and fast, if they have to return from dark space on foot, so to speak, so getting across the galaxy the old FTL way isn't beyond them. Add to that the Council has a standing policy of deliberately not opening all the Relays, so they haven't fully explored the network, and that 95% of the galaxy remains unexplored... the Reapers have a lot of places they can hide and move through.

[quote]
The character of combat between space-borne, FTL capable forces does tend to favor the offense over the defense, that’s just the nature of the beast so to speak. It is incumbent on the admirals leading a force to train, and deploy their forces in such a fashion as to take the best advantage of a given situation during combat, be that offense or defense. In the end, any FTL capable force can withdraw if it feels it is to its own best advantage to do so.[/quote]Indeed. Unfortunately, this favors the force with the better offenses and defenses, because they can deal more damage quickly, while surving more in return. Hit-and-run far favors the one with the faster horse, stronger guns, and thicker shields, and the Reapers have that in spades.
[quote]
If the Reapers do enjoy an intrinsic advantage in terms of general strategy, it’s that they don’t have any fixed targets (the Citadel, Arcturus, various home worlds) that must be defended. That can be a major disadvantage as well, since there are a limited number of places where they can be expected to strike, and only one must have location where they certainly will strike.[/quote]The next question, and one I fully expect in ME3, is how do you expect the galaxy to unify its fleets if the Collectors appear to threaten a half dozen homeworlds simaltaneously?

Even in the most Paragon of Paragon of playthroughs, the nature of everyone else remains the same. Will the Salarians risk leaving their homeworld underdefended to defend Tuchanka? Will the Asari trust the Rachni to help them? Will anyone risk anything for the Batarians? When the chips are down, will the Turians risk it all to protect their clients, the Volus?

The moment someone, anyone, starts losing the prisoner's delimma choice, everyone's likely to want to, and rather than galactic unity you're going going to get a divided galaxy, everyone frantic to protect themselves. Then your galactic armada is divided, and can be taken piecmeil by the Reaper fleets.

[Zulu_DFA]

OOC or not (I think it is not), Miranda's input on the C-Base choice is purely emotional. And all the C-Base choice is about "emotions vs. reason". So, yes, Base Destroyers are irrational. And they only prove it further by such statements as "emotions are rational".



And thank you, Ieldra, for bringing up the reference. To rephrase a well known quote, "The tragedy of David Archer is a tragedy. The erradication of all advanced life in the Galaxy every 50K years is statistic." That's what the Reapers are counting on. So yeah, Cerberus can't be trusted, and that's why the Galaxy must die. To spite TIM. Great thinking.

[Zulu_DFA]

mosor wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


That's also possible. The guy maybe a double agent. Infiltrated Cerberus on TSB's behalf, then defected / was caught. Or was Cerberus, then was recruited by the Broker (via Wilson) and caught / switched sides again, or the whole scheme was TIM's idea from the very start. And now he is feeding TSB with all kinds of misinformation wrapped up in hefty pieces of good but non-critical stuff.

Doesn't say Mordin is clean. It's not like I confine him to the Normandy at the hub ports (like I do with Jack). But as I said, TIM may be counting on it, and his "need-to-know basis" approach is fully justified even with the most Cerberus-loyal Shepard.

BTW, the EDI-Legion piece incriminates Shepard in having all kinds of AI activity onboard!

The info is also highly mundane. Jacob's workout video? LOL.! Seriously, none of the info the Shadow Broker has on Cerberus, or the Normandy crew is mission critical. No Kahoku assination, no Akuze, no rachni or thorian experiments, nothing on how the SR2 was developed, nothing on EDI. Sounds like TIM was managing info released to the Shadow Broker. That makes sense. To me that's smart. Only a matter of time before the Shadow Broker infiltrates. Might as well have a guy you trust do it for you, pretending to be the Broker's man on the inside and giving some juicy info that looks good on paper, but ultimately will do nothing to hurt your organization. Maybe that double agent is how Cerberus got the Shadow Broker intel for you to give Liara.

I like this better and better.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young, in lieu of post chain

That makes sense, that all mass relays always operate in a “Reaper-friendly” IFF mode, and that the Ω4 was the only one where it really matters. Not confirmed, but accounting for all observable facts, I don’t see how anyone could really disagree or ask more.

If they did make checks, they couldn’t have been very thorough or they would have caught the prothean sabotage. You’d think, “Will our signal work when the time comes?”, would be item one on that checklist.

I’m interested in nukes, not for raw destructive power, which (as you rightly point out) is far more efficiently generated by mass accelerated projectiles. But because they generate intense heat and radiation, two forces against which kinetic barriers, specifically identified as the Reapers main defenses, are useless. Also they are a known weapon, easily constructed in the thousands, even millions.

Missiles also interest me (because they are nuke delivery system) and because I don’t understand why, if a solid slug can be mass accelerated, a missile can’t. Why does the presence or absence of a payload, guidance system, or supplemental drive affect the speed at which an object can be fired from a space ship’s main gun?

As far as FTL comm. goes. I was thinking more along the lines of remote stealth sensor probes slaved to a mother ship via FTL telemetry links. A quantum device would be ideal for this purpose! It’s (by all appearances) relatively small, and theoretically its transmissions are impossible to intercept or detect.

Maybe the Reapers have come to see their “reapings” as routine. It’s likely they have. They shouldn’t, and complacency is a common symptom of arrogance, particularly an arrogance born of success (and the Reapers haven’t lacked for success, pre-Shepard). I feel a fair cert they don’t feel that way anymore! What’s disturbing is that they continue to underestimate Shepard in particular. Why not shut down work on the human-reaper project until Shepard has been dealt with (which is largely what happens after Horizon anyway)?

Oh, the Shadow Broker is or was certainly competent (the Yahg bloke, I mean), Dr. Chandana is another story. So I guess you could say Harbinger was smart enough to know when he needed help, though in fairness even the Lazarus operation also failed to meet its objective.

TIM orders a dozen abductions of individuals before breakfast (on a Sunday), but why would Cerberus abduct an entire colony? I don’t think that would fit with their stated objectives. I don’t doubt they could if they really wanted to, but they haven’t put any resources toward that.

I think the CB safe zone is minuscule compared to a solar system. If spherical, 3000 km in diameter max., is my best guess, based largely how proud Joker was of himself when his drift was less than 1500 km. As the safe zone is bordered by natural hazards, an irregular shape seems more likely. It is impossible to overstate how much I wish ME had a “writers bible” like some science fiction TV shows do, so such things could be clarified.

I should truly hope the Citadel Council would make a great many exceptions to standing policy once the Reapers show up! Particularly in regards to use of the relay system!

Were I the Reapers, and couldn’t strike directly at the Citadel, a genocidal strike at a council species’ home world would be my first target. Not Earth, since the Reapers apparently have plans for humanity. The idea being that any galactic alliance will splinter and look to themselves exactly as you suggest.

Not that that’s a sure cert to begin with. If one major world gets reduced to ashes it’s as liable to draw the races of the galaxy closer, if only for mutual survival. That’s why it’s so important to get the races of the galaxy committed on a philosophical/emotional level before hand. As much as I like to avoid RW analogies, I think this one fits: the French didn’t quit the Allies after the Fall of Paris (some did, may their souls rot in hell).

Modifié par General User, 15 octobre 2010 - 09:56 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

One thing I keep hearing about the Reapers and Collector Base is that Indoctrination is a "trap."



Indoctrination is a weapon... and one of the Reaper's primary weapons. Encountering it is necessary to find a way to beat it.



I've said it before, but Indoctrination in my mind is the most dangerous unaddressed issue toward beating the Reapers (big guns are nice and all... but if the ones using them are under Reaper control it doesn't do much good) ... and could well be THE key problem to solve.

[mosor]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

mosor wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


That's also possible. The guy maybe a double agent. Infiltrated Cerberus on TSB's behalf, then defected / was caught. Or was Cerberus, then was recruited by the Broker (via Wilson) and caught / switched sides again, or the whole scheme was TIM's idea from the very start. And now he is feeding TSB with all kinds of misinformation wrapped up in hefty pieces of good but non-critical stuff.

Doesn't say Mordin is clean. It's not like I confine him to the Normandy at the hub ports (like I do with Jack). But as I said, TIM may be counting on it, and his "need-to-know basis" approach is fully justified even with the most Cerberus-loyal Shepard.

BTW, the EDI-Legion piece incriminates Shepard in having all kinds of AI activity onboard!

The info is also highly mundane. Jacob's workout video? LOL.! Seriously, none of the info the Shadow Broker has on Cerberus, or the Normandy crew is mission critical. No Kahoku assination, no Akuze, no rachni or thorian experiments, nothing on how the SR2 was developed, nothing on EDI. Sounds like TIM was managing info released to the Shadow Broker. That makes sense. To me that's smart. Only a matter of time before the Shadow Broker infiltrates. Might as well have a guy you trust do it for you, pretending to be the Broker's man on the inside and giving some juicy info that looks good on paper, but ultimately will do nothing to hurt your organization. Maybe that double agent is how Cerberus got the Shadow Broker intel for you to give Liara.

I like this better and better.

Here I'll sweeten the pot even further. Instead of looking at what info the Shadow Broker has on Cerberus, look at what's tellingly absent. Things like:

1.Decent lists of Cerberus front companies and assets.
2. Human assets inside the Alliance or other critical areas. (You'd think the Broker would want to know that so he can blackmail those same people for more information?)
3. TIM's true identity? (Seriously no real name or even other alias'?")

That's just the tip of the iceburg. Did you also notice that you don't get to see the video feed of the Derelict Reaper and Legion until after you do the derelict reaper mission? A derelict reaper would be of prime interest to Shepard and Liara would have sent that info if it was available. However it's not. It's only available once the derelict reaper gets sucked into that brown dwarf and that info is no longer of consequence. Thus I can only conclude that the info sent to the Shadow Broker was managed from the beginning.

Our boy TIMMY played the old Shadow Broker like a fined tuned stradivarius. His manipulations helped take down one of the most feared people in the galaxy. That's why I see TIM as an asset and won't burn any bridges with him.

[Xilizhra]

Read: gameplay and story segregation. I suspect more of these items will be revealed to us in ME3. The Shadow Broker's files are a huge joke anyway.

[mosor]

Xilizhra wrote...

Read: gameplay and story segregation. I suspect more of these items will be revealed to us in ME3. The Shadow Broker's files are a huge joke anyway.

You can't chalk it up to gameplay and story segregation. Otherwise, I can chalk up every Cerberus research disaster in the mass effect games  as mere gameplay contrivances to allow Shepard to shoot things and solve problems. You deal with the information that's presented. The fact that it is a joke, illustrates how useless this info is to the Shadow Broker, and how TIM played him.

[Xilizhra]

If you interpret it like that, yes. Does the fact that you can't access the billions of other records that the Shadow Broker must have gained from spying on the whole galaxy imply that they don't exist either?

[smudboy]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you interpret it like that, yes. Does the fact that you can't access the billions of other records that the Shadow Broker must have gained from spying on the whole galaxy imply that they don't exist either?

Yes.

[mosor]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you interpret it like that, yes. Does the fact that you can't access the billions of other records that the Shadow Broker must have gained from spying on the whole galaxy imply that they don't exist either?

Considering Shepard asks those very same questions to EDI, it obviously interests Shepard. Just like Cerberus having a team on a derelict reaper would interest Shepard.  I'm sure Liara would have made it available to him if she had the info. However she doesn't.

[Xilizhra]

It's still quite an interpretation, and one I don't agree with in the least. But I suppose we'll see in ME3.

[Zulu_DFA]

mosor wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

mosor wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


That's also possible. The guy maybe a double agent. Infiltrated Cerberus on TSB's behalf, then defected / was caught. Or was Cerberus, then was recruited by the Broker (via Wilson) and caught / switched sides again, or the whole scheme was TIM's idea from the very start. And now he is feeding TSB with all kinds of misinformation wrapped up in hefty pieces of good but non-critical stuff.

Doesn't say Mordin is clean. It's not like I confine him to the Normandy at the hub ports (like I do with Jack). But as I said, TIM may be counting on it, and his "need-to-know basis" approach is fully justified even with the most Cerberus-loyal Shepard.

BTW, the EDI-Legion piece incriminates Shepard in having all kinds of AI activity onboard!

The info is also highly mundane. Jacob's workout video? LOL.! Seriously, none of the info the Shadow Broker has on Cerberus, or the Normandy crew is mission critical. No Kahoku assination, no Akuze, no rachni or thorian experiments, nothing on how the SR2 was developed, nothing on EDI. Sounds like TIM was managing info released to the Shadow Broker. That makes sense. To me that's smart. Only a matter of time before the Shadow Broker infiltrates. Might as well have a guy you trust do it for you, pretending to be the Broker's man on the inside and giving some juicy info that looks good on paper, but ultimately will do nothing to hurt your organization. Maybe that double agent is how Cerberus got the Shadow Broker intel for you to give Liara.

I like this better and better.

Here I'll sweeten the pot even further. Instead of looking at what info the Shadow Broker has on Cerberus, look at what's tellingly absent. Things like:

1.Decent lists of Cerberus front companies and assets.
2. Human assets inside the Alliance or other critical areas. (You'd think the Broker would want to know that so he can blackmail those same people for more information?)
3. TIM's true identity? (Seriously no real name or even other alias'?")

That's just the tip of the iceburg. Did you also notice that you don't get to see the video feed of the Derelict Reaper and Legion until after you do the derelict reaper mission? A derelict reaper would be of prime interest to Shepard and Liara would have sent that info if it was available. However it's not. It's only available once the derelict reaper gets sucked into that brown dwarf and that info is no longer of consequence. Thus I can only conclude that the info sent to the Shadow Broker was managed from the beginning.

Our boy TIMMY played the old Shadow Broker like a fined tuned stradivarius. His manipulations helped take down one of the most feared people in the galaxy. That's why I see TIM as an asset and won't burn any bridges with him.

To be fully honest, there is something like "For more details on Cerberus' infrastructure go to entry such&such". And the list of Cerberus' activities up to 2183, although no doubt incomplete, could be disturbing, if there were any material evidence to support it. And Paul Grayson somehow managed to outplay Cerberus Command all by himself.

Yet the outcome is undeniable. Both Grayson and the Shadow Broker are dead, and Cerberus came out on top of them and took the spoils.

RE: TSB's videos. That one showing Anderson meeting a guy in a "Cord-Hislop, Inc." t-shirt, I think it's how Anderson got that Horizon-Cerberus-Shepard tip.

[mosor]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


To be fully honest, there is something like "For more details on Cerberus' infrastructure go to entry such&such". And the list of Cerberus' activities up to 2183, although no doubt incomplete, could be disturbing, if there were any material evidence to support it. And Paul Grayson somehow managed to outplay Cerberus Command all by himself.

Hard to judge, but going by the other info. Like how many cigarettes TIM smokes a day, I'm not terribly concerned. They obviously have some info up to 2183. Like the lazarus station being defunct and definitly some info from what Wilson provided but nothing thats critically significant. Cerberus is a competitor to the Shadow Broker. Cerberus' opposite number as the Illusive Man tells you. If the Broker had critical  info that could take down Cerberus, they probably would have.

RE: TSB's videos. That one showing Anderson meeting a guy in a "Cord-Hislop, Inc." t-shirt, I think it's how Anderson got that Horizon-Cerberus-Shepard tip.

Interesting thought.